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Myths of Mideast Arms Sales
The Bush administration's proposal to send $20 billion worth of arms and $43 billion in military aid to U.S. allies in the Middle East has been promoted by repeating a series of time-worn myths that should have long since been abandoned. With a shooting war in Iraq and a war of words with Iran well under way, the last thing the region needs is a new influx of high tech weaponry.
The suggestions of Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates that this flood of armaments will be "stabilizing" in the short term while underscoring the U.S. commitment to "moderates" in the region over the longer term is a prime example of this historical amnesia.
Take Saudi Arabia, which continues to pursue policies that are moderate in name only. Not only is Riyadh one of the most undemocratic regimes in the world, but it has more often than not used its financial resources to promote extremism and repression elsewhere. From financing fundamentalist madrassahs in Pakistan to supporting Sunni insurgents in Iraq, the regime has a long track record of opposing the values of democracy and moderation that the Bush administration claims are the overarching principles of its foreign policy. It's hard to see how selling Saudi Arabia more military equipment will change this pattern, any more than arming the Shah of Iran in the 1970s and the Afghan rebels in the 1980s promoted stability in those countries.
Some elements of the proposed package are particularly disturbing. Satellite guided bombs are not "defensive weapons"," as the administration claims. Using them would be ill-advised, if not disastrous.
This raises the question of who exactly would Riyadh use these weapons against. Iran? Iraq? Israel? Internal opponents?
Iran has no intention of invading Saudi Arabia; if it wants to undermine Saudi security it is far more likely to work via proxy, a tactic that the Saudis are well-equipped to counter in kind.
An attack on Iraq in the context of a civil war would only exacerbate tensions and help savage any remnants of stability that remain there.
Attacking Israel would be a suicide mission, given Tel Aviv's substantial military superiority. The only plausible scenarios - and the ones most feared by Israeli officials - would be if a rogue pilot attempted to strike without authorization or an even more extremist regime were to overthrow the current Saudi government. Last but not least, using satellite guided bombs against armed extremists within Saudi Arabia would be the wrong tool for the job, like trying to kill a swarm of mosquitoes with a sledge hammer. Good intelligence would be a far more effective tool. What if the Bush administration tried to foster greater intelligence cooperation instead of casting its two top cabinet officials in the role of second-rate arms brokers?
In the short-term, these scenarios may not be high probability events, but as the U.S. experiences with arming the Shah of Iran and the Afghan rebels demonstrate, weapons supplied now can be used against U.S . interests down the road as political conditions change.
If a symbol of U.S. commitment to Saudi Arabia is needed, there are plenty of other tools at Washington's disposal, in the realms of diplomacy, economic cooperation, and coordinated law enforcement efforts, among others. Not to mention the fact that the funds the Saudis expend for this proposed deal would be far more productive - and stabilizing - if they were invested in economic and social programs within the kingdom.
For all of these reasons, the U.S. Congress must take preemptive action to try to derail or reshape the Middle East arms package. Since Congress was granted the right to stop major arms deals via a joint resolution of disapproval under the Arms Export Control Act of 1976, it has never successfully done so via a formal vote. But there have been instances where the threat of Congressional action has led to the restructuring or delaying of specific deals.
A successful effort to block or reshape the Mideast arms package must begin with detailed hearings as soon as Congress starts its fall term. Waiting for a formal notification from the executive branch, as skeptics like Senate Foreign Relations Committee chair Joseph Biden and House Foreign Affairs Committee chair Tom Lantos have pledged to do, will be too little too late. Given the inherent problems with this arms package, it is unlikely to withstand public scrutiny. It is up to Congress to take the lead in promoting a real debate on this critical issue.
William D. Hartung is the director of the Arms and Security Project at the New America Foundation.
57 Comments so far
Show AllDon't hold your breath. These people are making a lot of money off of this mess and they're not going to give it up just because a bunch of elected representatives have promised a bunch of laws that are basically window dressing.
US Presidential candidate Tom Tancredo said that we should bomb Mecca and Medina to deter future Islamic terrorist attacks.
Perhaps we are arming Saudi Arabia to protect it from us.
I have a question about these satellite guided bombs. Does Saudi Arabia have satellites of their own? If not, wouldn't they need American help in delivering these bombs? That raises even more questions. I wonder if the U.S. is planning to use Saudi Arabia as a proxy. Israel is already our main proxy. I can hardly wrap my mind around the prospect of Israel and Saudi Arabia being de-facto allies. It gets curiouser and curiouser. Are there any sane people in the American government?
Bush has more brass than a dime store monkey. He is in hot water over and over again for all the lies and criminality and then he gives nuclear technology to India and now arms to the middle east. No discussion with people that represent the people in foreign affairs, he is the decider.
This guy is one reckless piece of work and he must be stopped. He has no morality, contrition nor remorse. In short this animal has no conscience nor soul. He is a dry drunk high on power and he will ruin the world completely if allowed to.
Since Saddam's army, 90% supplied by the old Warsaw block has been destroyed, Saudi Arabia faces no immediate threat. My understanding from talking to an aviation friend that has worked over there is that any high-tech weaponry is wasted anyway. Apparently, Saudi produces some fine pilots but most think that maintainence work is beneath them. The machines are soon not in working condition.
Last but not least, using satellite guided bombs against armed extremists within Saudi Arabia would be the wrong tool for the job, like trying to kill a swarm of mosquitoes with a sledge hammer.
Yes, but, to extend the analogy, the ones the sledgehammers are getting sold to have close ties to the hammer manufacturers and far too much money for their own good.
Remember, the guys selling them the weapons are the same geenyouses who told us we needed mobile howitzers, MOABs and Ballistic Missle Defense to fight al-Qaeda's boxcutters.
They forgot to add to the list of bad things that Saudi Arabia supports the Taliban. One thing the Afghans would want listed as they are furious with the Saudis for this!
The arms sales to Saudi Arabia is something Saudi Arabia actually pays for as do the others regimes except Israel. Israel does not have to pay for theirs. The US loses alot of money buying up Saudi oil and this causes a trade deficit. The way we get the funds back is by selling Saudi Arabia weapons that no one in Saudi Arabia is trained to use. It makes the arms industry rich and balances out the trade deficits.
It's ARMING more MADHOUSES and how could such a strategy be sane unless WAR is the desired product, and we see where that will lead. Selling weapons this late in mankind's game is like giving the angriest kid in the neighborhood matches and an empty wooden house. SICK minds are in charge and it's going to take a lot of prayer, Divine intervention, nature-based events, economic implosion and Goddess knows what else to right the inverted hierarchy... just unbelievable what's going on in the name of national statesmanship!
The destruction of Iraqi society has left a power vacuum in the Middle East that Iran would fill without American interference. The Saudi Royals are terrified of Iran becoming the dominate power in the Muslim Middle East. America's arming of the Sunni nations is an attempt to balance the Sunni/Shia divide.
I expect that the government of Iraq will soon be destabilized by the U.S. and they will try to place a Sunni dictatorship back in charge of Iraq to counter Iran's influence in the region.
Iran had little influence until the invasion of Iraq. Everyone admires/sympathizes with the person who tries and stand up to the bully. The US occupation of Iraq and the plethora of heinous acts committed against innocent civilians is what is driving the popularity of Iran. Besides they are the only legitmate government in the WHOLE of the middle east. Saudi, UAE, Kuwait, Egypt etc are all despotic regimes propped up by the US.
The US simply does not care - and has inherited the superior and contemptuous attitude of the Brits. What they fail to understand is that compared to many empires - the Brits where probably the worst run of them all.
The arms sale -to Saudi Arabia is only a pretext to supply Israel with even more of subsidized arms. The lion's share goes to Israel.
All I say is - we stop the pretext - and make Israel the 51st stae and have them start paying income tax - by gawd its about time. I don't think anyone has had more welfare than Israel - in addition to phony arm 'sales' -we have billions in bail out - since Israel can't produce anyting of value - so we continue to subsidize their economy.
Annex Israel as the 51st state of the US !!!
Madhoosier this is all true.
One more thing to note in both Iraq and Saudi Arabia where the oil is actually located is predominatly Shi'a areas (Iraq oil is also located in the Kurdish areas but the Mosul to Haifa pipeline is already in the works). No wonder Washington is fostering a Sunni-Shia division.
Actually, Bush is deliberately destabilizing the Middle East and the World to provoke a nuclear holocaust and fulfill his Biblical prophesy of Armageddon. Yes, he really is that insane.
iyamwutiam - "I don't think anyone has had more welfare than Israel - in addition to phony arm 'sales' -we have billions in bail out - since Israel can't produce anyting of value - so we continue to subsidize their economy."
A few minor corrections:
The $30 subsidy to Israel, spread into 10 years, comes up to $3 Billion / year
1. According to the state department, Iraq receive $18 Billion a year. They get more "welfare" than Israel.
2. Israel's GDP is $170.3 billion (2006 est.). , The US aid comes up to less than 2% of Israel's GDP.
3. Israel is a leader in a few fields, such as I.T, Alternative energy, Defense, Agriculture etc. Israel can produce $170 Billions a year of value.
4. The $30 Billions of US aid, will not come to the pocket of Israeli citizens. All that money will eventually go back to US Weapons manufactures.
Lucky for us corporations have our best interest at heart. Since God died who else is going to look after us?
isn't this like development "aid", from USAID or IMF or Worldbank? we'll "give" you a loan/grant but you have to use that $$ to buy our products/services, and you have to open your markets up to foreign investment/ownership.
it's called "aid" but it's really propping up certain industries, here the military. i believe even israel, w/its own military in full bloom, has to spend this $$ on american products. and i believe saudi arabia cannot do anything w/this hardware; it sits there and rusts. but our trade deficit dips slightly b/c saudi arabia just "purchased" billions in weapons "trade".
and we are said to be "supporting our 'allies'".
what a sick joke.
Nietzsche,
Bush thinks he is God's strong right arm to carry out the Bible's prophesy of a final war between Good and Evil, which explains his seemingly self-defeated policies.
Isreal doesn't pay for the weapons deals or for its loans. Its loans are always forgiven by Congress.
On Saudi Arabia you are correct.
Most of these loans go from US government funds to US military companies. Most of the advance military equipment is never used (which is a good thing) and NOT needed.
Israel is the 5 largest exporter of military equipment in the world; why are we giving them aid? Unless, it is to benefit American militry companies.
Enough said...this deal is about ripping off US tax dollars for the benefit of US military companies. Lobbying Capitol Hill works.
It is time to stop this kind of 'aid'. If we want to help out other nations, lets do so with nonpolitical and nonmilitary aid, like direct investment in civil infrastructure, hospitals, ag development, computers, and economic development. Such aid recognizes the basic humanity of the recipients and isn't used to suppress a basic human instinct, namely, the desire for representation. Military aid, by contrast, is often used to by the local government to turn their country into a police state, with results like 9-11.
dcbeltway - Israeli bond are rated as AA. (Which is reasonably good rating)
Can you show any link (Not from a fanky hate site, but from a reliable source, such as Congress, State Department, World bank, IMF, UN, Bank of Israel etc.) that proved that loans to Israel are always forgiven by Congress?
Can you show us, the readers, a single loan which was forgiven to Israel in the past 20 years?
Buy stock in Halliburton, Betchel, Raytheon, or a company that makes coffins.
Hillenbrand Industries owns The Batesville Casket Co.
In 2004 Batesville had sales of $360.000.000.00 with plants in Indiana, Missouri, Tennessee, & Mexico City.
Vets I always post reliable sources so here's your loan forgivness website since you are still drinking the KoolAid. The US Government Accountability Office:
http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=NSIAD-89-78FS
Thank you dcbeltway, It seems that I was partly mistaken, and you are partly right, at least on one point.
I have asked you to give me an example for "a single loan which was forgiven to Israel in the past 20 years", and I admit that you managed to find a loan PAYMENT which was exempt in 1988 - which is 19 years ago. Good Job, I was off by 1 year. I learn something new every day...
However, although the exempt payment in your example was in 1988, it was for a loan taken in 1973, so perhaps I'm not entirely wrong after all.
(In 1973, the Israeli army almost collapsed in a combined attack by Egypt and Syria. The USA sent weapons and supplies to Israel, but these weapons were not free. The loans payment for these supplies crippled the Israeli economy for the next decay, untill it finally recovered in the mid 80s. and during these years, some loand debts were examped by the US congress)
Having say that, I still insist that you are wrong when saying that ALL loans to Israel are exempt, nor were you able to provide any recent exampel for a loan exempt.
Here is a link to the Israeli Ministry of Finance 2007 proposal.
http://www.mof.gov.il/bud07_ea/part2_2.pdf
In it you can see that 29.9% of the budjet is debt repayment. Similar to social payment 29.4%, and more than the Defense bugjet that eats 18.6%. So you see, in recent years, all Israeli debt are being payed in full.
Here is the distribution in 2006
http://www.mof.gov.il/bud06_ea/2006B2.pdf
Seeing this data, I hope you will now agree with me that the sentence "Its (Israel) loans are always forgiven by Congress" is not accurate. At least not in recent years. (19 ?)
The proposed arms sales are part of Bush's grand scheme to elevate tensions in the Middle East prior to an attack on Iran.
Saudi Arabia is awash in weapons systems that they have acquired over the past 40 years, none of which they are independently able to maintain. It is insanity to put more weapons into their hands.
Israel is bristling with arms and well able as they stand today to defend themselves against any combination of their neighbors, including Iran.
But, unfortunately, the odds are that this craven Congress will approve the sales. After all, AIPAC and our neocons want it. Not to speak of our offense contractors, who will benefit immensely.
Remember the USS Liberty.
The captain received the Congressional Medal of Honor, the only such medal not awarded by the sitting president.
What will be sacrificed this time?
What will it take for a nuclear strike against Iran to become acceptable to the people of the USA?
So what do you say Vets? Time to boycott 170 billions a year I say.
White Rose - I love you, will you marry me?
vets---
Your references are "proposals" only.
Look at the facts, they're better then "proposals" any day of the week.....
The parasites have NEVER paid one cent of principle or interest on any "loan" and they never will.
http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm
http://www.counterpunch.org/rooij1116.html
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/1297/9712043.html
http://www.populistamerica.com/the_power_of_israel_in_the_us_part_ii
http://alawda.rso.wisc.edu/aidtoisrael.htm
As soon as the arms "sale" (and giveaway-to Israel, of course) was announced, as if on cue, grotesque New York Congressman Jerrold Nadler objected to that part of the deal which allowed weapons sales to Saudi Arabia because, he pointed out, it is a terrorist state (implication---Israel is NOT a terrorist state). Silence regarding giveaways of 30 billion dollars to Israel, no questions asked or answered, at a time when we are buried in debt and broke, is the predictable response of the MSM. All of which is perfectly designed to prepare for more destabilization of the Middle East for the benefit of... who else but our sovereign masters.
I suspect we sell or give or lose weapons in as many places as possible to give us more freedom to go after weapons of mass destruction that are an immediate threat to American Freedom.
It is always good to plan ahead.
"...."stabilizing" in the short term while underscoring the U.S. commitment to "moderates" in the region over the longer term is a prime example of this historical amnesia."
I wouldn't exactly call it amnesia. It's just another example of the LACK of "long term" consideration and rational decision-making which characterizes this administration and its inability to handle crisis situations after they create them.
SHORT TERM CRISIS MANAGEMENT IS SHORT TERM AND DOES NOT ADDRESS THE PROBLEMS THIS ADMININSTRATION HAS CREATED FOR THE LONG TERM!
How could we forget that the majority involved in 9/11 were Saudi Nationals?
It's all wrong, selling all of these huge amounts of weapons to other countries like this, and giving double what all of the others get to Israel, at no charge to that state. But what has my curiosity going is that people are complaining about I think it's $13bn for Saudi Arabia, while Israel's getting $30bn, and I have not yet read of Saudia Arabia, as bad as it is, doing anything like Israel's been doing to Palestine for ages, and to Lebanon. People complain, in all of this, about Saudi Arabia, and I don't see any mention of a wrong when it's Israel.
I don't know of Saudia Arabia being as hellbent as Israel is and has long been. Either Israel is much worse, or people writing articles are awfully poor at properly informing readers. Or maybe they are pro-Zionism.
Israel is HELLbent; there's no question about it. So what is wrong with these so-called analysts who write without criticizing ever more arming of Israel? I wonder why there's NO mention of this.
It's up to these analysts and writers to properly inform people, readers, and they're not doing their work well at all.
Of course, and given that this is not a discussion forum, I won't know if someone provides an answer. After all, discussion forums that I employ notify us when people post or reply in threads we've either posted in, or have activated 'watch' on.
Nonetheless, I'll still post this; just that I won't know if anyone answers my question.
Rose a nuclear stike against any country is unacceptable.
It doesn't matter who the customers are, the MIC (military industrial complex)needs customers. They would gladly sell more weapons to Iran and even North Korea if they could politically find a way to make it sound beneficial to U.S. interests. It wasn't that long ago that Condi went to India, sold them a bunch of F-16 fighters and the following day went to Pakistan and sold them the same F-16's presumably to counter India's growing military strength. Is the hypocrisy so difficult for people to see? This decade has been the greatest decade ever for the MIC and the War Party and the Clinton/Obama rhetoric shows no signs of reversing this madness.
sjc_1, Perfect description of the Great Leader. He reminds me of a mindless robot crashing around with no idea what he is doing. One wonders what he is thinking, but that may be it, he is incapable of reasoning and lets others push his buttons. Some think God is behind all of this, but I have a better opinion than that of the Deity. The saying-power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely, seems applicable.
oldtimer, - "The parasites (Israeli citizens) have NEVER paid one cent of principle or interest on any "loan" and they never will."
oldtimer, - I went through the sites you have published. They all seems to me as hate site that focus on one thing, and unbiased truth is not it.
For data, I would prefer to rely on sites which were written by professional Accountants or Economists who leaned the basic rules of accounting. (Who know for example, the difference between loan guarantee and actual loan)
Having said that, even in the anti-Israeli sites you have published, I could not find a single justification to your ferry tale story about Israel never paid a single cent of principle or interest on its loans.
You know what, I'll be blunt. I'll tell the truth to your face. Listen carefully:
Mr.oldtimer, you are either an ignorant fool, or you lie deliberately due to some hidden agenda that I could only guess what it is.
I know that for a fact from personal experience. I have a foreign saving account in an Israeli bank, and guess what, I was paid both interest and principle, and each was for a sum bigger than 1 cent.
Here is a document published in 2004 by Bank of Israel, that shows that in 2003 Israel paid back $15 Billions in debt + $9.5 Billions in interest.
http://www.israbank.gov.il/deptdata/neumim/neum163e.pdf
I would say $15+9.5 = $24.5 Billion, is a little more than one cent. And that was only in 2003. So much for "Never".
I can only hope that you are an ignorant fool, and that now you have learned something that will help you change your view. The other option is far less appealing for my taste, and judging for your word choice that describe 7.2 million people as "The parasites" the second options seemed far more likely.
Good day
You know Americans were good to me. I like those and indeed love those I knew well. Many family members spent time there are still there or go there to visit friends. I am a nobody unlike the rest of my family. i spent my 54 years studying among other things current affairs. The biggest affront to mankind in what is deemed the West used to be as black and white as aparthide. Recollect Steve Bico and company. Company is the appropriate word. It has more rights than your mother or father has in the USA. I went through a traumatic time when your great communicator Ron, an actor, was billed as being so popular; particularly the way he staved off the communist hoards from invading your christian backyards. And credit where credit is due he managed to do his duty by establishing illegality into your constitutional setup. Got to protect the image of the President at all costs. Nicaragua was one of many neighbours put in its place south of that old Mason Dixie line. What a job that was eh? The freedom fighters fought the good fight and central america was buzzing with flies and tears. But we all drank our bud and had hotdogs with kraut and mustard. I lived a time in the middle east. Israel was my favourite place to leave. And there were tears. Of all and they are many places I lived for a year or two Israel stuck in my mind. I really am glad to have the opportunity to join this discussion. Let me state it plainly. I am so sick and tired of the nonsensical bullshit that wonderful democracy in the middle east seems to pour out of the USA in particular. It is not that western europe is much different but that you couldn't pay me enough greenbacks to ever even visit your country again. And how I loved you guys. I always felt you would stand up someday. Now I am quite sure I will depart without ever glimpsing any change. I recommend your incredible country to anybody even now, especially the younger folk. I love most the Jews, Blacks, Queers, Muslims, Latins, Cowboys and especially the cowgirls and the women of that Whitman, Hendrix, and Lincon nation. I fell in love there. Forever and it is enough. So, back to the nitty gritty. The State called Israel is an abomination in the face of human beings. It is an imposed injustice, savage in its birth as the US was. But even europe moved on fron all that Napoleon and not too few wars. To-day following enlightenment the fall of the Wall in Berlin peace and harmony have settled upon the european project. We genetically know war. Not an explosion on a building that kills 3000 people but real wars. Your troops wage wars with the willing. They waged in central american states and didn't cross the Mogudishu line for a short while. NATO today is in Afghanistan why? Karzi said yesterday that the TALIBAN don't exist in effect. Who are the TAliban. You guys met them to do an oil deal less than two years to the latest invasion. Rest assured that Karzi, who also stressed that Iran is helpful to his attempts to gain legitimacy in his pained country, has some idea of what he is talking about. Recent reports claiming the majority of civilian deaths are caused by NATO planes bombing with their much publicised precision missiles. What's not known by many is that exactly the same is now occurring in Iraq. Your planes are dropping suicide car bombs willy nilly a 600% increase within the current 'surge' and it is not reported. That's the truth. In many towns in the Sunni triangle daily. The busiest single military air base in the history of this world is there. There is a rush to get the job done before Patreus reports the same Patreus who oversaw your 190,000 Russian AK47's and pistols disappearing. But it's war right? Who's war? Against who? Back to this report. The greatest crime of aggression, the supreme crime is aggression in international law. But laws no longer apply. They existed for a good reason but they certainly no longer apply. Your government will through its unbridled power get from the UN a resolution on Saturday the 11th giving you more time to surge on in Iraq. There are 4.4 refugees there growing at 60,0000 per month. The worst thing a human being can become is a refugee. There are ever more refugees in the Palestinian refugee camps over the last 60 years. They cannot work, move, have no passports, like the old Indians. But they are worse off. the fact that the Western powers are well aware of thetruth of the matter is much bigger a crime than let's say Rwanda's dreadful genocide. The Armenian's genocide by the Turks is not even on th map. But the Holocaust takes the biscuit much to the shame and disgrace of our civilisation. And the result? The greatest fraud ugliest most horrific disgraceful entity that your government insists be recognised called israel. Purity of arms, little Israel heroically holding back the hoards of Arabs that seek to drive the settlers into the sea. Israel who holds out the hand of peace but cannot find a partner. The only democracy in the middle east. Defending itself against terrorists who just kill innocents and use the despicable suicide bomber to destroy the peace loving race. Then iran is behind it. Ahmedinijad calls for the State to be wiped off the map.Of course he never said any such thing. And if he did so what? He has no say in the matter. None. The same way as I am still optimistic about the United States people I am optimistic about all the Jewish people. Unfortunately, both and indeed europeans don't care enough, know enough, or both. So this is for understanding. Each an everyone of us are responsible for an ongoing and indeed unique genocide of the Palestinians in the middle east. Christ's cruxification was a demonstration of there being no justice on earth. Let me remind all Christ will come again and justice will ensue. But when we don't write and refute absolutely the propaganda, lies, deceit,unbridaled cruelty, and the greed of the State of Israel we will bring upon ourselves and our decendants calamity and sow the seeds of our own destruction. As with the Russians in particular you Americans are the cruelest of all by far and your settlers in a land for a people for a people without a land are going to pay the ultimate price. Far better I suggest that we go back to the old laws and start again. First the laws must be obeyed by every nation and every one. No more pre-emptive strikes and assinations, state terrorism and torture, killings rape, drug pushing, corruption, enough. Those laws that may need revision let them be revised agreed and absolutely implemented for everyone of us. I'm thoroughly disgusted before I die but I will never cease to get into the mix about that horrifying entity that demands its existance to be recognised by what they have deemed to be a terrorist organisation. Any Jew explain? Also, when an aggreement the conditions of which have been broken must be retroactively renewed where and how does that find legitimacy in Mercantile Law or contract law. And the nerve of the state which ignores laws to demand others to obey. God Bless America.
vets---
The sites are NOT hate sites except in the eyes of a hatefilled person such as yourself.
The Mossad motto is-- "By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Make War"......Dispute that if you can!
Your personal savings account would have nothing to do whatsoever with what the israeli government does with the "loans' they have NEVER repaid.
You can lie and rant all you like, however try as you do, you CANNOT change the truth.
SHAKKER: Your cynicism is well-founded.
LBABUS: Powerful, impassioned perspective. So long as fear rules and weapons merchants seek to profit by blood, there will be many takers. I don't think anyone on CD approves of Israel's tactics. I think it has a right to exist as an entity, but I think it's doing the moral equivalent of shooting its best interests in the foot by demonstrating ruthless aggression towards its neighbors, and abject disregard for the Palestinians. It's tragic that the U.S. in its own martial hubris grants strokes to Israel for similar initiatives. In both cases acts of rabid injustice tend to backfire and while I would never wish that pain visit itself upon ANY civilization, there is no karmic impunity from doing the wrong things. Both US and Israel are currently guilty of such. How sad that mankind has such fabulous technological tools, among these I rate the FILM media, tools that could be used to inspire a repudiation of arms, a shared realization that our futures all depend upon learning tolerance, the capacity to live WITH our differences, and someday the enlightened understanding that these differences are what make people grand. Can you imagine a world of only one type of food/restaurant? Symbolically the spices of India, the Arab coffees, the Thai mixtures represent all the delicious diversity of mankind's multi-splendored tree of life. As if it can exist without those branches!
RE: RICE, GATES ARRIVE IN MIDDLE EAST WITH PEACE OFFERING
$63 billion in advanced weapons.
http://www.ironictimes.com/
oldtimer - You must live in Parrallel univers, some kind of Nazi haven. You insist to continue lying by trying to hide tens of Billions of dollars that Israel pay every year to past debts. My saving account is being backed by short term bond issued by the Israeli Government. Can you answer me how is that possible? Maybe I'm not telling the true?
What you say - That the Israeli government NEVER paid any cent in interest or principle is not only a lie, it's simply absurd. And very easy to prove.
I challenge anyone in this forum to buy $1 is any bond issued by the Israeli Government, and see if they will get their money with interest, just as hunderds of millions of other people did before them, and by thus prove oldtimer and his old lies - a liar.
Your hate comment is reminding me middle aged anti-Semitism, where Jews were falsely blamed for never paying off debt or keeping any promised. What's next? Burning all the Israelis on the stake? Bring on the Inquisition?
I see only one reason why divert the subject if debt, and brought in the unrelated to the subject Mossad motto "By Way Of Deception, Thou Shalt Make War" - That reason is to pait Jews as liars and deceptors. Ironically - Your diversion perfectly fit the old time anti-Semitic dogma.
B.T.W I see no ill in using your brain in order to achieve the same millitary goal with less casualties.
vets--
You are deceptive again. You are now comparing bonds to the "loans" that are not paid back. They are two entirly different insturments. Your savings account has nothing to do with the "loans" israel defaults on.
---------
B.T.W I see no ill in using your brain in order to achieve the same millitary goal with less casualties.
---------
Do you mean the slaughter of the Palestine people in Israel by the jews or the slaughter of the Iraqi's in Iraq for the jews????
oldtimer -
1. The Israeli Government had not default on any loan for the past few decades. At most, some loan payment were exempted by congress during the 1980s for loans which were taken in 1973.
2. This is a forum in politics and not in basic financing, but just so you would know - Bond is a type of loan. (That is taken from the public, instead of from a Bank)
3. "slaughter of the Iraqi's in Iraq for the jews????" - Your Paranoia is getting better and better. Shi'ite and Sunni are killing each other in Iraq, with some help from George W's troops. - and you blame it on the Jews?
On earlier post you said that Jews are Parasites. That Jews NEVER pay out loand. That Jews are deceptives because of the Mossad's motto.
I think I'm beginnnig to see where it all comes from.
I'm sure you also one of those who believe that Germany lost World War I because it was backstabbed by Jews, and that the Hyper Inflation, and the economic hardship in 1920s Germany was because of Jews, right?
Thanks to the jews, I saw with my own eys it taking a wheelbarrow full of money just to buy one loaf of bread.
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The Polish Bolsheviks kill 58,000 German Nationals in the Danzig corridor
In the months leading up to the German invasion the Polish Army and independent Bolshevik units had been slaughtering German nationals in the Danzig corridor. Mass killings of thousands of civilian ethnic Germans (Volksdeutsche) by both civilian and Russian NDVK Jews, who were confident that Poland would quickly defeat Germany. Many apparently expected to take possession of German farms and businesses. An estimated 58,000 German civilians lost their lives in the massacres carried out prior to the 1939 invasion.
Poles had been merrily slaughtering anything or anybody German since at least as early as April 1939, with smaller incidents stretching back to the close of WW I -- you haven't been told that by the Mass Media, or the fact that these atrocities were one of the main causes for the German invasion of Poland.
Germany had protesting in writing to the League of Nations literally dozens of times with no results.
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/freedman.htm
Have a good time at your sin-and-gouge....
Russian NDVK Jews??? In pre WWII Poland??? Give me a break.
1. After Stalin's 1937 purges, a very small number of Jews left in the Soviet NKVD.
2. The acronym for NKVD is NKVD, and not NDVK. (Your knowledge in history is as flaw as your knowledge in basic finance)
3. Poland feared the Soviet Union just as it feared Nazi Germany. Poland have even fought the red army in 1920. Let alone cooperating with it.
4. oldtimer - "An estimated 58,000 German civilians lost their lives in the massacres carried out prior to the 1939 invasion"
Another lie that exists only in your mind and Nazi propaganda wet dreams.
Learn about the Gleiwitz incident that led to the Nazi invasion of Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gleiwitz_incident
Another question for you oldtimer, If you hate Jews so much, and believe Jews are the source of all evil on this planet, than how can you call yourself a Christian and worship Jesus, who was a Kike himself?
Your mind must be very complex to cope with such paradox.
I have yet to see a barbaric terrorist jew that could accept the truth......
Read Matthew: 24
Your mind is so full of racist material, I don't think you can distinguish any more between true and false.
You think Jews are barbaric terrorists, and that Nazi Germans were innocent victims. Having lost 80% of my family in the holocaust, I don't buy your Nazi propaganda.
I read Matthew: 24.
Usually I don't read the Bible, but I made an exception in your case. Ironically it fits you perfectly, and your belief in the false prophet Adolf.
8:42 Jesus said to the Jews, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and have come from God, for I have not even come on My own initiative, but He sent Me."
8:43 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word."
8:44 "You are of your father the devil and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature; for he is a liar and the father of lies."
8:45 "But because I speak the truth, you do not believe Me." [JOHN 8:42-45]
Goodby for now and may you rot in your sin-and-gouge....
1. I will not rot in a sin-and-gouge since I'm an atheist.
2. It has already been proven that you don't speak the truth on great many thing. (Which means that according to your believe you don't follow "You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.")
Good luck with burning up the non-believers, Enjoy your next KKK meeting... I hope your will resolve your internal conflict of worshipping one Jew (Jesus) while hating all other Jews.