Yes, Tibet was a somewhat fuedal society before the invasion of the China and yes reforms were needed. However, from what I have read and talking to Tibetans, my understanding was that most Tibetans were satisfyed with their lives, just as Native Americans were satisfyed with their lives before their lands were invaded. If the Tibetan people were so badly treated before the Chinese invasion than why do the vast majority of Tibetans want the Dali Lama back and China out? The Chinese have even made it a crime to have a picture of the Dali Lama.
When the Chinese invaded they destroyed almost of all the thousands very ancient temples and monastaries after stealing anything they considered of value. They burned ancient manuscripts, trashed the Tibetan religion in every possible way, forced the people to grow wheat instead of their traditional crop barley which caused massive famine, settled millions of Chinese there, polluted their pristine lakes. Oh, and yes they do sterilize Tibetan women.
I am not a Buddhist, but in my humble opinion Tibetan Buddhism has some of the most profound teachings, of any religion as well as a lot of cultural beliefs which comes from their older indigenous religion. All of which, the Chinese have tryed to utterly destroy, including sending Tibetan kids to China to brainwash them and turn them aginst their families and Culture.
Fortunately, some Tibetan culture survives in India under the guidance of the Dali Lama.

I suspect on the primate issue and the Dali Lama there is some sort of misunderstanding as everything I know about him leads me to believe he is an extremely kind and compassionate man. The Chinese do not exactly have a great record on animal rights, they skin live dogs and cats for fur. I also saw a traveloque where they skinned a snake while still alive and popped it in a pot of boiling oil.

China is a great country with a truely impressive history and culture, but their treatment of Tibet is right up there with the US and the Spanish treatment of the indigenous peoples in the Americas.

We need a one world government with this guy as president. There are always a few good people who would make the decisions necessary for this world to be worth living in.

Look who we got: George, Kim Jong Il, Putin and a few hundred more like them. It's like some committee scoured the planet for irredeemable scum to be our leaders.

Chinese conservatives and ours... which is worse?

How's this for an entirely different perspective? :

As said in ancient Rome: "He who rules the religion rules the region."

I would guess that the ideology of Buddhist activism is just as much a growing threat to China's status quo as the ideology of Jesus Christ was to that of egocentric pyramid-building Rome-fearing rabbis. I dare say that the biggest threat to the Buddhist activists, and the prized possession of Chinese dictatorship, is the multitude of fearful hesitant non-activists. Many have seen what happened in Tiananmen Square.

It is the classical cyclical tale of the beast, the dragon and the woman. Government uses fierce suppression to destroy ideologies that do not conform to their status quo but threaten its foundations.

The birth of a new following starts up and government leaders, usually corrupted with power and knowing that the people will look for anything that represents more freedom or all out deliverance from oppression, soon feel threatened. The Government (the Beast) exercises suppression (the Dragon) to stifle religious/deliverance ideology (the Woman).

Where there is a veil, there is Deception (Serpent). Where there is suppression (Dragon), there is bloodshed.

Friend: You wrote that the U.S. was supposed to have China for "the prize" for winning WW11 in 1949.___ Really!!?

Could you please elaborate on that statement? I am a student of history, I have never, ever heard that one.

It is interesting that people who always say religion is the root of all evil dont focus on the atheist nature of China. Not exactly a paradise of secularism.

What a piece of work Steven Spielberg is--always wanting to be liked and the center of attention--agrees to work as an adviser(I bet it wasnt for free!) to China for its childish Olympics display--makes a minor fuss about Darfur ONLY after Mia Farrow attacked him for it.

What a joke the Olympics is.

Tibet's occupation by China has continued for nearly 60 years now. What a testament to the inner resolve of the Tibetan people that they continue to struggle for democracy!

Please consider supporting this freedom struggle - through prayers, letters to your congressman and senators, and whatever means you are able. His Holiness the Dalai Lama, in his 5 point peace plan proposal to China, seeks a very reasonable compromise:
http://www.savetibet.org/tibet/hhdl/5pointplan.php

The hypocrisy of pretending that democracy is part of American foreign policy is painfully evident in how our government has dealt with China and the oppression of Tibet. We once supported Tibetan autonomy but reversed our position with the Nixon and Kissinger corporate détente of the early 70's. George H. Bush ignored both Tiananmen Square and Tibet. Clinton expressed concerned about human rights in China prior to his election but a Chinese campaign donation silenced his administration. Investment in China and the exploitation of cheap labor remains a higher priority than either Tibet's freedom or the rights of Chinese workers. Opening up an honest discussion about the Tibetan tragedy would be a good start towards reducing the suffering of the Tibetan people and preserving their priceless culture.

Having the Olympics in China with all of the international press coverage may seriously backfire on the Chinese government. It would be a great opportunity for protestors to show up at the Olympics, make a statement and get arrested in front of the international press.

I don't understand that logic of the statement that the Chinese government will appoint the Lamas as it is supposed to be an athiest-communist government. Does anyone in the government meditate daily like the Dalai Lama? Then how would they recognize a reincarnated Lama?

Please note, the Chinese didn't just reject His Holiness the Dalai Lama's choice to be the 11th Panchen Lama, they kidnapped him and he has not been seen or heard from since! This level of persecution, in the case of Tibet, amounts to cultural genocide.

Many people are hopelessly ignorant about the situation with regard to Chinese control of Tibet. How much democracy did Tibet have before Chinese control? What was the literacy rate? What was their health care like? What was the overall quality of life in Tibet? Who picked the Dalai Lama and why? Who was benefiting from the previous system?

The demonization of China went full bore after the fall of the Soviet Union because the military industrial complex needed an enemy and the mush-headed American citizenry could always be counted on to uncritically join in on the attack. However, after 9/11, the pressure was taken off the Chinese as another bogeyman fit the bill. But if things wind down in Iraq and the US public wises up to the hollowness of the terrorist threat in the US, expect the demonization of China to start up where it left off.

kivals if you really think there is any element of democracy in China or Tibet you are seriously deluded. Also, maybe the Tibetans are the most likely people to determine who they chose to be their leader dont you think. The Dalai lama is a religious leader. Yes, Tibet was not very democratic but neither was/is china nor a majority of nations in the past !!
Almost ALL of Tibetans are against Chinese rule in Tibet and want nothing more than their country back !!

The hell with Tibet,
FREE PALESTINE!

Tibet, before it was liberated by the Chinese government, was a FEUDAL society. Tibetan serfs and slaves were bought and sold by their feudal overlords, the lamas. Disobedient serfs had their feet and hands cut off. Others were whipped to death or thrown off cliffs. It was not some "shangrala" as it is presented in US movies.

In fact, the author ("Heinrich Harrer") of "Seven Years in Tibet" was actually a Nazi Party member and a member of the SS! Of course, like most other former members of the SS, he denied it.

What the Dalai Lama really wants is to return to the "good old days" when he was viewed as a god king and he ruled over a feudal society. The reason the US government supports him is to achieve its old imperialist goal of dividing and conquering China. After all, Washington is still mad about "losing" China (which was supposed to be "the prize" for winning WWII) in 1949.

That is an interesting critique, "friend," and it is best not to demonize China or idealize the Tibetians, although you do not provide support for your argument that the US is still interested in conquoring China - that really is rather far-fetched.

It must be pointed out that self-determination is a human right that the Tibetians are denied. Instead of comparing Tibet under Chinese occupation to Tibet under Tibetian fuedalism, we should focus on what needs to be done today to ensure human rights for all of the Tibetian people.

Finally, the fact that the US, many European countries and Japan had a imperialistic colonial role in China does not excuse current Chinese colonialism. We must admit our own injustice if we are to reverse the injustice of others. We must also not forget the occupation of Uigar Xinjiang, which is often omitted due to the endemic biased viewpoint that it is OK to occupy Muslim lands.

The Olympics are an excellent opportunity to inform international opinion as to the state of human rights in China, as well as an opportunity to reflect on conditions in our own land. Indeed, if America continues to devolve towards the kind of dark, totalitarian future that seems to be, we can learn a lot from China - how to expidite the executions of political prisoners, how to make detainees talk, how to use the state media to control the flow of information, how to stifle dissent amongst the workers, how to use military threats to influence international policy, how to censor intellectuals artists and writers, how to increase the wealth of the upper class by taking money from the masses, how to cannibalize culture to create a society of consumers, how to avoid democracy at all costs, and how to create an environmental and health catastrophe in the name of profit with very little public dissent.

Or was it that China learned how to do these things from US?

Good points Gwazdor. the Chinese may have learned it from Ghengis Khan, then the British, then from Stalin and finally from us.

Some of the things the Chinese people learned from us, was when their people came here to work on the railroads, and slaved to carve out the necessary tunnels in the Rockies, they were treated as badly or worse, than we treated the American Indians. In our western states and territories, Chinese were not permitted to even enter most towns after sunset. In the large cities, they had to stay in their China Towns. They were treated as vermin,__ or worse.

That is ironic, when one considers the Chinese culture and advances in science and technology, was more than a thousand years ahead of the ALL of the other nations on earth, up until the early eighteen hundreds.

I have some problems with the Dalai Lama. He is seduced by the glitter of honorary degrees. He is a known admirer of scientists who have been known to burn monkey brains and perform other hideous acts on monkeys. Tibet is populated by human beings that can speak out on their own behalf. Non-human primates like monkeys don't have that luxury and they can't speak out on their own behalf. These non-human primates have no business in laboratories; yet they are condemned to conditions that are as evil as the experiments that went on in Nazi Germany and Manchukuo. Non-human primates have a right to their habitat and the right to be the creatures that they are. Human primates don't have the right to screw that up. I must say that I am extremely disappointed in the Dalai Lama. Be a friend to our fellow primates. Humanity owes them their lives. It's not just about Tibet freedom. It's about primate freedom. http://www.primatefreedom.com/

The nonviolent Tibetans deserve help. They requested help from the U.S. and the U.K. when China invaded their country, but they were ignored. It's strange that the Iraqis never requested help but were "freed" anyway. Oh, I forgot; Tibet has no oil or other natural resources that imperialists want, which is why they were ignored. China turned peaceful Tibet into the killing fields.

The continuing ignorance of the West about China is appalling. Kivals and Friend have it right.

Under the Dalai Lama there were no hospitals or decent roads in Tibet although he himself was a vastly wealthy theocratic feudal lord. The only schools were equivalent to the madrassas in Pakistan where the selected young were indoctrinated into a noodle brained form of "Buddhism" replete with all sorts of demons, witches, etc. The average life expectancy in Tibet under the Dalai Lama was twenty-eight. Today it is fifty two.

KEM PATRICK:

As a "student of history" you should sharpen your reading skills.

What "friend" said was: After all, Washington is still mad about "losing" China (which was supposed to be "the prize" for winning WWII) in 1949.

As a "student of history" you will recall that 1949 was when Washington "lost" China to Mao Zedong's revolution. If you still don't understand "friend's" observation you should get hold of a good book on punctuation and read up on the use of "parentheses".

The U.S. provided massive economic and military support to the Kuomintang in its civil war against Mao, in an effort to maintain a compliant ally in China. They lost their hegemony in 1949 when the Red Army won the civil war.

I am fully aware of that Doctor Candle, I just never termed it, nor read anyplace, written by anyone, where China was to be a prize we were supposed to recieve after winning WW11 in 1949. The year confused me also. I thought WW11 ended in 1945.

Massive support? I would not call the few millions and some worn out equipment we gave, with no airpower support, as massive. If we wanted China as our prize, we would have truly given massive support.

Anyway, I was not saying friend was wrong, I just asked if he could clarify his statement, as I have never heard it like that. I do know what "" are for. The problem for me is, I'm legally blind now and have to read the comments using a magnfing glass. Sorry. Thank you for the advice however. My spelling often is lousy tto.

Warning! Chinese politics have been Nasty, slippery, and deceptive long before Communists were ever around. In fact, the Kuomintang Party, composed mostly of gangsters, including the Green Gang and collaborators with the Yakuza-bolstered Japan Fascist Party, was so viciously corrupt that it drove most Chinese to support a revolution that led to a Communist government in Beijing.
The ultra-wealthy Kuomintang oligarchy 'top brass' not only fled to Taipei, but also to San Francisco and Washington DC (to lobby immediately for a counter-revolution to overthrow Beijing.
The ruthless, criminal Kuomintang makes the Communist Party look like flawless angels. It was one of the major lobbyists in Washington DC to start, maintain, and keep aflame the Korean and Vietnam Wars with US tax dollars paying for them and US soldiers dying in hopes that our troops would eventually invade China and give it back to them and their gangster friends. Kuomintang intelligence reports to US govt agencies wer massively deceptive, full of lies (as they do at home in Taiwan and before in mainland China). It would be quite accruate to say that the Kuomintang is to China as the Cuban Mafia is to Cuba.
AND They're At It AGAIN!
The old mega-wealthy (now including massive commercial real estate assets in the USA and Canada) Kuomintang Mafia is now trying to fan the flames to get the USA to 'defend' Taiwan in the event of an attack from the Communist government in Beijing, AND the Tibet propaganda, and the Dalai Lama, are among their most useful tools.
As Americans, we must carefully scrutinize what is going on in China, not be manipulated by deceptive propaganda from Taiwan or from Beijing. The Kuomintang, mostly under Republican administrations, has increasingly infiltrated US military and intelligence organizations, as well as other government agencies, and is worse now than ever.
It bears much of the responsibility for the ongoing internal chaos in the United States over the Vietnam War, the confusion around and lies about the Korean War, and now much misinformation about Tibet and mainland China, in hopes that the Bush war machine will go to work for them just like the Korea and Vietnam war machines did.
We need to make sure that any American foreign policy moves in East Asia are based on what American observers and analysts see and report... and not on agents of Chinese political and economic interests.
This is more obviously problematic in states like California, where the Chinese political lobby often favors the interests of the Chinese diaspora and its political institutions and economic interests more than those of California or the United States.
This is not to promote racism, but is to deal realistically with the allegiances of legal and illegal immigrants whose intent is not to assimilate into American culture, but to use the USA as a launch pad and a source of money and bodies in American military operations in East Asia.
And be aware that as soon as you bring this up, you may be attacked as being a racist... which is as valid as bring up the treachery of the Italian mafia, the Cuban mafia, or German nazi/neonazi corporate mafia. These primal subgroups are themselves highly clannish, racist, rich, and love to watch the resources of the USA, including its human cannon-fodder, dance to their tune.

Restore Democracy: Perfect___ and on one page too. (A)

"It is interesting that people who always say religion is the root of all evil dont focus on the atheist nature of China. Not exactly a paradise of secularism."

as an atheist this statement just irritates me immensely

yes but as theists always point to communist china and the former soviet union as examples of "atheist aggression". what a crock. those governments stamped out all rights, religion was just part of the equation. the state and the communist dogma became a "cult" of it's own, really and has nothing to do with atheism at all. you call life under a communist nation "secular"?

Let's suppose that reincarnation exists. How will the Chinese punish the unauthorized reincarnates? Killing them seems an ineffective method to control those who can just keep coming back.

Religion is not the problem. People use what they can to abuse others if they are so inclined then they use whatever excuse seems expedient. If abuse was done with a screwdriver, banning screwdrivers would hardly be the answer, because most people use screwdrivers responsibly. Many people are religious and responsible.

WOW!!! What a discussion this one is! There is a lot of mis/information flying around, to be sure. And some very good points as well.

Kivals; Not quite.

Friend; Very not quite, nonsense, in fact.

MountainMike; The Chinese government does not operate on the basis of 'logic', similar to our own, and misinformation is part and parcel here. Ref the very good Common Dreams article today by D.M. Green about politics for kindergartners, it's the same here in many ways.

Yes, I did say "here", I have lived in China for many years and am writing from there now.

Kali; It is customary for Buddhists to speak ill of no one, in case you didn't know. One time, while having a conversation with a Living Buddha and a few friends, we began speaking of George Bush, however briefly. I said that I thought he was a bad person (my opinion) to which the Living Buddha replied "no, not bad, good". The point was to only see the good, to only encourage and focus on the good. That is the Buddhist way. To imply that the Dali Lama advocates or 'admires' vivisection or animal torture is nonsense. Buddhists frame everything in a positive light, that is all. It is the power of positive focus, leading by light and others will eventually follow.

With reference to lamas being "feudal overlords", please. I am personal friends with a few Tibetan "Living Buddhas" and have traveled high into the mountains spending time with them at different monastaries and nothing could be further from the truth, at least not now. Total nonsense.

And Jaded Prole; How about free Palestine AND Tibet...Darfur, etc etc? Maybe a good place to start would be to free your own mind.

I have seen for myself many many things here, things that shock even me (which is not easy). The way the news is edited here is astonishing. Things happen here involving thousands of people and no one hears about it - ever. And I am talking about things that may happen just down the block and area residents never even know about it.

Unfortunately, it is common now that the people - who truly have been talked to and miseducated like kindergartners also - have a very difficult time listening to any criticisms from the U.S. anymore (I am speaking of the people, not the government and there is a BIG difference), due to the Bush gang. Americans are increasingly seen as hypocritical and hegemonic, for good reason.

I think the best way to address some of the Chinese issues, however, as an international community, is through the Olympics somehow. Believe me, for the ordinary Chinese citizen, the Olympics are a HUGE event of tremendous national pride and excitement. Believe it. Criticism, however, MUST be accompanied by facts and information, times, dates, names, etc etc. Otherwise, people here simply won't believe it. And for good reason, they have been lied to all of their lives so are thusly misinformed (just like Americans in too many ways) and also because Bush has proven that Americans lie. Bush even lied, bold faced, to a high school student about torture. That kind of information they do get here.

It's a big world folks and finger pointing does no good. Everywhere is screwed up and for many of the same reasons, just different masks. The motto for the Olympics in China is "One world, One Dream"... lets all work on that one.

also;
JConrad; you are right.

In fact, the Chinese government recently tried to implement new laws to improve working conditions and wages for workers and it was struck down because - why? - the U.S. companies threatened to pull their manufacturing operations out of China!!!

Do you all remember, way back when, when soda cans by law had to start having a pop top that did not come off, so that we now push it in instead of pull it off, because it was better for the environment? Well guess what (for any of you non world travelers), in other countries like China, Coca Cola, etc, etc, etc still do it the 'old fashioned way'. Our U.S. corporations don't give a good goddamn about the environment - or YOU!!!
In case you didn't already know it.

The young Dalai Lama was about to start modernizing Tibet, but the Chinese invaded and didn't give him a chance to. I'm not a Buddhist, but if I were to choose a religion it would be Buddhism. They don't believe in war and violence like Christians, Jews, and Muslims do.

whateveryousay: You hit a home run. Several weeks ago on another CD article, I told a story about a Tibetan lama tortured by a Chinese communist, but would not hold a grudge against him, which would have meant creating a negative thought.

Very important, but highly significant, and conveniently overlooked by corporate mainstream media, is what you said to JConrad about the U.S. companies. How many Americans know that billionaire monopolist Bill Gates was also in on that anti-union, anti-worker posturing in China? That's right, folks. A capitalist is never satisfied and never has enough money, and has an insatiable appetite.

RestoreDemocracy: An excellent historical perspective on the crooks of China before and after the 1949 revolution.

Still, the invasion of Tibet was tragic, and what they did to the Tibetans and their culture. No excuses can be made for those actions.

China today is not communist because capitalism with the all pervading "big brother" watch over its people, is now the dominant political theme. But I give them credit. They stand up to our government and won't be pushed around.

Whateveryousay: I would never make any scurrilous remarks in a cavalier way especially when it comes to an illustrious individual like the Dalai Lamai. The fact is he DOES condone vivisection. Again that's not an opinion, that is fact. I won't say that he condones torture BUT IT IS TRUE HE CONDONES VIVISECTION BY HIS OWN ADMISSION. So it's not nonsense. But don't take my word for it, visit primatefreedom.com. I judge people the way treat our fellow primate relatives. A friend of a primate is a friend of mine. I don't consider the Dalai Lama a friend and I am sorry I have to say that. I guess the Dalai Lama doesn't see himself as a primate and that's why he is so disconnected IMO.

Buddists don't believe in WAR?

Well Jews, Christians, and Muslims don't believe in war either. That doesn't stop them from waging it. Just as if doesn't stop the Tamir rebels (buddhists) from killing and destroying in Sri Lanka.

The Chinese prove that aggression based on a nation's percieved national interest isn't an American monopoly.

The people of tibet deserve to be able to choose their own religious leaders without the permission of Bejing. They also deserve their freedom. FREE TIBET.

RestoreDemocracy, and others, very interesting posts. Where can we find info you refer to? I think that most, Americans at least, are in the dark about China. When Hong Kong was transferred to China the fear was that it might be overrun with anti-capitalists, destroying it's culture. It seems now that the opposite has occurred with capitalism thriving throughout the country, and yet it's still a communist nation. How is all that working? Is it really capitalist? is it a good thing that is happening or are the poor being exploited by corporate capitalists, and how is all that jiving with a communist government? I don't get it.

kali; ok, fair enough, I will check out the site you say and see where it says he supports vivisection.

The Masters in China have realized like the Masters in Singapore and the Masters in the US that you can disenfranchise the entire population and still run a global system of social slavery - and call it anything you want; Capitalism, Communism, Socialism, Marxism, Globalization, Free Markets, Democracy - anything at all - no difference.

The general population is disposable at the whim of the Masters and the resulting wealth is funneled into the hands of 20% of the population with the bottom 15% of that group functioning as Overseers, and the Top 5% in the Master Caste with the real power weighted to the top .25%. Any argument with that?

Constant war, conflict, and 'enemies' are essential to all Master groups in order to maintain their domestic hegemony. Soon, they will be so far gone into each other's pockets that they will have more in common with foreign richfilth than they do with their own people. "Some say" that has already happened.

Sorry about the Tibetans, they're toast. The Chinese are following the template we established here in the US back in the 18th century for the 'ethnic cleansing' of all First People. So far, as far as I know, they haven't engaged in germ warfare, imposed starvation, or forced sterilization under the guise of a health exam. That was a great trick btw, almost as good as inviting them to dinner and then lacing their food with arsenic just so we could watch them die in horrible pain. As far as I know the Chinese have not done any of those things, yet.

For the moment it seems they're content with cultural genocide by destroying the language, the customs, and of course the religion of the Tibetans. At the same time they're using the old 'cheap/free land' offer to push the Tibetans out while displacing them with hungry ethnic Chinese. Not the first or the last time for that - breed them out. This is a straightforward mathematical projection. No metaphysical system or religious fantasy has ever stood its ground against mathematical inevitability. Sorry Mr. Anderson, prophesy is rooted in hope and hope is never a substitute for a plan. The Tibetans don't now and have never had a plan. They only have their prayers and rituals. I hope they provide some measure of comfort as they die. No one will lift a finger to help them in any way. No more than anyone ever assisted the First People here as they died. The Chinese may even use our "Reservations" (see: Death Camps) as a model for themselves.

After 600 years, it looks like the Dalai Lama is going to have to get a new job. I know, he can get one of those new jobs working the line in a food factory 16 hours a day, 7 days a week and at the end of the month he owes more money than he 'earned'. That should be fun. On 20 minute meal breaks while shoving rice down his throat, he can talk about his condition in the most positive and glowing terms. After all, that is what 'Living Buddha's' do, don't they?

BTW, at Melrose and La Cienega in Los Angeles, you can't throw a rock in any direction without hitting an Ascended Master, Guardian of the Light, Keeper of the Stones or Mary Baker Eddy's Astral Lover. They require only 3 things, your money, your ass, and your children (13-28).

Piece.

GOOD HEAVENS!!!! I have to agree with the posters, Kivals, friend etc., who say there's a helluva lot of mis-information flying around about Tibet.

Let's start with this tidbit of information:
Was Tibet invaded by a foreign country causing the then Dalai Lama to flee? Did that foreign nation massacre Tibetans in their invasion? Yes, to both questions.

It happened around 1903. And the foreign invading country was Britain. The Dalai Lama fled to Mongolia. Anywhere from 2000 to 5000 Tibetans were massacred when they tried to defend their country. They asked China (Tibet was under China's control) for help but China couldn't even protect herself then.

The British leader of the invading force was Francis Younghusband.

Google him, educate yourself and grow up, people.

The British might have been successful in carving up the Indian subcontinent into India and Pakistan. But they failed in Tibet. No wonder certain westerners hate the Chinese. They cannot stomach the fact that China dared to reverse history. They took back what was hers, Tibet, Hong Kong and Macau...Taiwan, anyone...?

I've been to Tibet. Outside the Potala Palace in Lhasa in the square surrounding it the Chinese have erected bars and discoteques. For the Tibetans this is thier holiest site. The Chinese are defaming it. Its like erecting a starbucks outside of the Mosques at Karbala in Iraq (something the US is probably working on at the moment).

Wow mopy ... your myopic views need serious attention. While we are so anxious about giving back whats 'theirs' lets start with our won country , assuming you are american !!

There is absolutely no justification in the world for China's annexation of Tibet. The Tibetans are even ethnically different from the chinese if that actually matters. It was a pure land grab and the chinese are falling over themselves and their PR machines are working overtime to justify this friggin landgrab !

I don't think the political future of Tibet has anything to do with the Dali Lama's character and whether or not he supports vivisection. It seems off-topic. A person may contain great contradictions and still have a positive effect. I'm glad he and his living buddha homies don't like to think evil thoughts about anything, but I'm sure they are not always successful, and I'm sure that they do bad shit sometimes like the rest of us. After all, the Dali Lama's just another dude.

In any case, he could be a sadistic vampire but I would still like to see conditions improved for Tibetians and they culture.

And I don't think it's fair to pick on the Chinese for animal cruelty. Billions and billions served? What is that, hugs? Anyway, you can't lump all Chinese or all Americans or all Tibetians together like that. Nobody's evil. Nobody's holy.

This is not a comparison of religion or culture !! Its about the Chinese annexation/invasion of Tibet and oppression of Tibetans. Its also not really about how great your culture was in the past ( which may be true and kudos to that ) but its more about the present and what we are doing here and now.

Hiding behind spurious arguments of how uncivilized the Tibetans were till the Chinese came along opens a can of worms coz the Chinese are not considered very civilized in other parts of the world !! Remember World War 2 and what the Japanese did !!!

Religious or cultural, why should we reconsider redefining the metaphors which none dare argue?

Akhenaten's tomb/truth will be found 3 days before the day that Pat Robertson dies.

Good Heavens! It's amazing how no one wants to address the real issue here, ie the History of Tibet! Knowing that history makes the Chinese position quite understandable. Maybe that's why no one wants to address the true History?

Instead many try to rationalize their prejudices by focusing on other issues. Here my good friend, gyptian, is partly correct. It's not just about religion and culture. gyptian suggests that the issue is the modern-day uncivility of the Chinese and as 'proof' says that the Chinese are not regarded as very civilised in other parts of the world. What the Japanese did in China is further proof of that, he emphatically states.

Good Heavens, again! Surely s/he jests? That statement has an odour about it. And, yes, I will use the word...racist! Not only is s/he also rationalizing his/her case, but s/he seems to be suggesting that the Chinese brought on their own misfortunes at the hands of the Japanese!

WELL!!! Following his/her line of reasoning should we believe that the Tibetans brought on their own misfortune by the Lamas? the U.S native peoples brought on their own misfortune by the U.S government? and, dare we say it, the Jews brought on their misfortume at the hands of the Nazis...?

(dramatic pause)

Who you trying to gyp, gyp-tian...? (*_^)

well you got it ass-backwards as always and yeah its too easy to throw 'race' into it !! save the drama ...

Lets do some history ....
http://www.tibet.com/Status/statuslaw.html

Kali;
I visited the website - primatefreedom.com - which you suggested and found this "Open letter to the Dalai Lama" which addresses your point and, I presume, 'proves to you' your point. I can see how you think what you do, regarding the Dalai Lama purportedly supporting animal testing. However, I do believe that this is an interpretation error. Let me explain;

As I stated before, it is not in the Buddhist philosophy to criticize or, as Peaceman said, have "a negative thought". In this vein, the Dalai Lama clearly states (see below) that if you MUST conduct research via animal testing he "encourages the minimun use". This is in following with the Buddhist practice of non criticism, that is all. He does not state that he condones, encourages, or supports animal testing, but rather states that if you must do it, similar to eating meat, you do it minimally and with as much compassion and as little infliction of pain as possible. I can see how, by his use of the word "encourage", it is easy to think he actually encourages the practice, but that is a misinterpretation. His assistant Tenzin Geyche Tethong states this exactly (again, see below). And as we as compassioinate people find animal testing abhorrent (which I do also), we yearn for leaders, especially spiritual leaders to speak out against it, of course!
However, it is simply not in the Buddhist philosophy to speak "against" anything. So the Dalai Lama states that if you must do testing, do so compassionately.

Please note further that, when asked why the Dalai Lama supports Dr Kalin's animal testing, his assistant Tenzin Geyche Tethong replied as follows; "His Holiness specifically pointed out that the research work should not involve experiments on animals."

The website primatefreedom.com states;
"Your assistant Tenzin Geyche Tethong replied on September 6, that:"

"His Holiness was not aware that Dr. Kalin was involved in conducting tests on animals that were painful and extremely cruel. His Holiness has always been against such tests on animals. In fact, when His Holiness offered to
make a contribution to a research work by Dr. Paul Ekman on the subject of CULTIVATING EMOTIONAL BALANCE. His Holiness specifically pointed out that the research work should not involve experiments on animals."

Some time later, a further request for clarification was sent to the Dalai Lama, to which he replied;

"It is a difficult question, [as it] is a difficult [duty]. I will answer, as I do, to the question of many Tibetan Buddhists who are not vegetarians. I encourage the minimum use of experiments on animals, the absolute minimum amount of pain. Only perform highly necessary experiments, and as little pain as possible. If it must be done, [if that is your path, it is compassionate] to kill out of necessity, but only with empathy. Hold in you the sense of the compassionate: "I [acknowledge] that I exploit this animal to bring greater benefit to a great number of sentient beings." You must
feel the sacrifice, in your heart. It is never made lightly."

I think it is clear, although easily misinterpreted, that the Dalai Lama is NOT advocating animal testing or eating, however he says if you do so, if you must do so, if that is YOUR path, to do so with as little pain as possible. He says it is a "difficult question" because it is not in his belief to tell others what to do or what their path should be.

Kali;
one more note; You say you "judge people by the way they treat our fellow primate relatives". To give you an idea of what I am talking about, in terms of not understanding the Dalai Lama's position, Buddhists do not JUDGE anyone.
Therein lies the confusion.

Also my friend, I fully admire, support, and respect your compassion towards other sentient beings. Have you ever seen Buddhist Lamas, after a rain, tirelessly relocating worms from a mountain path so they will not be accidentally stepped on by others. I have and this was not for show, as there were no other people around and they didn't even know I was watching.

Peace to you and all beings.

I feel it is further worthwhile to point out, for clarification's sake, due to the importance of this matter and the ease with which misinterpretation can abound, that when the Dalai Lama, in the above passage, stated; "I [acknowledge] that I exploit this animal to bring greater benefit to a great number of sentient beings." - he was not saying this as HIS position, but rather as the prayer/thought that anyone involved in animal testing should hold in THEIR heart and mind while doing what they feel they "must".

Good Heavens! What an outburst from my good friend, gyp-tian! But thank you, as that confirms my suspicions about your racist views re the Chinese. Allow me to recap:

1) You say that what is relevant is the 'present' and then you go on to say that the Chinese are uncivilised people. Quite a blanket statement that! You certainly paint with a wide brush, don't you? What honest person does that? (Strike One)
2) In an attempt to buttress your odious comment you say that other countries in the world also say that the Chinese are uncivilsied. Yet you provide no examples. (Strike two)
3) You further try to support your argument by implying that the Chinese got what they deserve at the hands of the Japanese during the invasion of China by Japan. That invasion began 72 years ago, Dude. You're reaching back into history to justify your 'present day' comments, despite saying that only the 'present' is relevant? I guess the Chinese were also 'uncivilised' 72 years ago? (Strike three)

Dude, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck, then it's a duck, duckie, not drama. Durn tootin' right that is, and that's what you are, dude.

I'm so happy for you that you're taking my advice and doing some 'history'. But that site you quote is run by the rich Tibetans who fled when the Chinese took it back. Now why don't you go visit the Chinese sites about Tibet, then some impartial sites and get an allround view? Education is a wonderful thing!

Finally, Go in peace! (A sentiment which the Dala Lama would be sure to support albeit coming from someone like me, wouldn't you think? Or maybe not...?) (*_^)

the tibetan people are not "struggling"; they are wishing and hoping for change while doing nothing about it. praying, letters to government and other so-called "peaceful tactics" have thus far accomplished nothing - why do you activists believe that continuing the same fruitless actions will produce a different outcome? that is the very definition of insanity. come to your senses and realize the only way to make change is to use force against those that oppress you, because they sure as shit don't care about your letters that ask that they please stop killing people.