Vets you stoop to new lows when you deny what is going on is Apartheid especially when there are Israeli Jews like Ilan Pape who have written books and called what's happening ethnic cleansing. Bas, Hallas, I'm done responding to apologists like you.

OK everybody ... remember .. you just have to ignore 'vets'. Same old tired and empty arguments, bereft of any morality ( if they can do it so can israel !!) and rabid accusations (if you are anti-israel you are anti-semite and racist !!). This AIPAC member has nothing better to do than dish up the same old crap on every forum. He takes twisted logic to new heights and somehow manages to make israel sound like the shining city-state in an ocean of lesser beings !!
Dont waste your time. Weve heard it all before.

Lets hold fingers that finally something good will come out from this troubled region.

Peace.

vets August 3rd, 2007 1:38 pm

30 Billion in military aid to shitty little Israel and 20 Billion in military aid to Saudi Arabia's dictatorship and noocleear technology to India and potential war with Iran....

Don't hold your breath waiting for peace....

Peace isn't good for the arms merchants and other lobbies as they'd be out of business so I second Simonhh when he says don't hold your breath.

30 Billion in military aid to shitty little Israel !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Go to Hell you anti semitic son of a bitch for using that word to discribe Israel.

Israel is the ONLY truly democratic country in the entire middle east. They are the ONLY country in the entire region that has a free press that criticizes its own government. It can kick the asses of most other countries in the world. It is not a shitty little country.

I am disgusted that the webmasters would allow you to get away with using that language.

Wellll, Israel is kinda shitty.

They have poisoned the bedouins, on occassion.
They have imprisoned and tortured a few people, now and again.

Hey, they sound just like that other shitty country, you know the one, sandwiched between Canada and that place with the desert and the things... uhhhh... Merika, yeah, that's it. That's the ticket.

Peace to you and yours.

Keep playing a charade will do nothing but continue and increase killings.

The minimum required for some semblance of peace:

Get the Israelis the hell out of the Gholan Heights ASAP.

Get the Israelis the hell out of Gaza and the West Bank ASAP.

Get the Palestinian refugees the hell out of Lebanon and into their original homes ASAP.

Divide Jerusalem into 3 distinct religious areas and protect them by UN troops.

Getting the above done ASAP is the only way this will play out OR

Come 2016 things will be still be where they are to day. The Arabs regardless of what sect they are will not allow their politicians to be suckered again. The winner if nada happens is our friendly Al-Queada and the Taliban.

But then maybe thats been our plan all along.

in re adjectives to describe people, countries, policies, religions -- On the one hand, I strongly favor a fundamental change in post W.W. II US policy towards all countries in the Middle East, a change that would see the US far less accommodating to Israel. Israel may or may not be fairly called a democracy, but it is certainly the only Middle Eastern country currently and unlawfully subjecting another people to occupation (in tandem, of course, with the U.S., which is currently and unlawfully subjecting another people to occupation and death in the hundreds of thousands). On the other hand, if one is interested in effecting such change, using scatological and otherwise pejorative language to vent perhaps understandable displeasure is possibly not the best chosen form of discourse.

simonhhh - "... shitty little Israel"

To bad you have lowered yourself to such unrespectable language. I happened to think that Israel is not "Shitty", or at lease the least shitty state in the middle east..
I'm not sure which country you are from simonhhh, but it is most probably shittier that Israel.

yknot - "Get the Palestinian refugees the hell out of Lebanon and into their original homes ASAP"
You forgot the Jewish refugees that were expelled from Arab countries, from the West Bank and Gaza. Every one remember the Palestinian refugees. No one remembers the Jewish ones. All refugees should have equal rights. Enough with the double standard.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands\

Ah, yes, everybody's an anti-semite but you and me, and I'm not so sure about you.

"As long as the Palestinian schism endures..."
the death merchants that supply Israel with weapons of mass destruction will laugh all the way to the bank.

Hector - "but it is certainly the only Middle Eastern country currently and unlawfully subjecting another people to occupation"

Hector, you are either ignorant fool, or you lie due to some dark hatred agenda. (I hope the first option).

Check what is the status of the Kurds in Iran, Turkey, and Syria.
Check how lawful is the Moroccoan occupation of Spanish Sahara.
Check how lawful is the American Occupation of Iraq.
Check how lawful is the Turkish occupation of Northern Cyprus.

Also learn how Arabs are being treated in Iran?
How black Christians are being treated in Sudan?

I can hardly respect someone who bluntly lie in order to promote some hate agenda.

Only the truth will set you free!!!
Peace!!!

Bush is a fool....The palistinain PEOPLE massivly elected Hamas to represent them, as they were tired of Fatah corruption..

Abbas and Israel can play kissy games, but there can be no real peace without the Palistinain people.

(p.s. Israel acts pretty shitty sometimes)

Peace will be achieved when the people of the middle east will learn to respect and except the other. Nursing hatred, and blaming others without assuming any fragment of responsibility to your own situation, will do no good.

The Hamas, even though they democratically won the elections, must change. The Hamas must agree that Israel has a right to exist, and that Jews have the right to live. Continuing with their current racist agenda, and with their unwillingness to talk about peace with Israel, is against the best interest of the Palestinian people under their control.

Untill they do - the best chance for peace is with Abbas, and Fatah.

Abbas is the west's man; Hamas is the people's choice. And though that 2006 exercise in democracy was snuffed out lickety-split, by a western concert lead by Canada's Stephen Harper along with the other jackanapes, the fact remains that the people are despondent and in despair. We all know that a desperate person with an imagination can wreak all manners of havoc. If we do what is Just, we will be saved.
The Palestinians have wandered in the desert for forty years now. It is time they were delivered to their promised land.

Peace.

The US' and the West' commitment to democracy in the Middle East has been roundly discredited by the invasion of Iraq, calling the dictators "moderates" and overturning the verdict of the Palestinians and calling Abbas' government "legitimate". It is utterly disgusting to see the UN Secretary General, Ban Ki Moon, a poodle of the US (of course he was handpicked for this post by his MASTER), urging support for Abbas's efforts "to restore law and order", thus legitimizing an undemocratic government.

It is known how the US and the West have been instrumental in scuttling the formation of the National Unity Government in Palestine, and the eruption of civil war. Alvaro de Sato, Under-Secretary-General and the UN Special Coordinator for the MiddleEast Peace Process, in his May 2007 scathing report criticized the Quartet that as a stage in the Palestinian evolution toward democracy was set and after the popular Hamas came to power with 43% support, it "transformed the Quartet from a negotiation-promoting foursome guided by a common document (the Road Map) into a body that was all-but imposing sanctions on a freely elected government of a people under occupation as well as setting unattainable preconditions for dialogue." International Crisis Group reports: "By refusing to deal with the national unity government and only selectively engaging some of its non-Hamas members, by maintaining economic sanctions and providing security assistance to one of the parties in order to outmanoeuvre the other, they contributed mightily to the outcome ... Through their words and deeds, they helped persuade important Fatah elements that the unity government was a transient phenomenon and that their former control of the Palestinian Authority (PA) could be restored. And they helped convince important Hamas elements that the unity government was a trap, that time was not on their side and they should act before their adversaries became too strong. The crisis was not produced by the Mecca Agreement but rather by deliberate and systematic attempts to undermine it." By imposing sanctions and boycotting the government, the Quartet and Israel hoped to force Hamas to change or persuade the Palestinians to oust it. Washington promised security and economic aid to encourage Fatah to confront Hamas and help defeat it. On the other hand, Fatah, obsessed with recovering power, has done virtually nothing to restore popular credibility and reform itself. De Sato writes," Hamas…is first and foremost a resistance movement, with a strong religious foundation and a network of programmes of social assistance to the down trodden. In contrast with the decay and corruption and fecklessness of the Palestinian Authority under Fatah, which has essentially lost touch with the people. Hamas was widely seen as attentive to their needs and largely untainted by corruption." The periodic threats of Fatah to call early elections or a referendum to unseat the Hamas exacerbated tensions without offering a way out of the stalemate. "From the moment the Mecca Agreement was signed, several of its (Fatah) officials and presidential advisers undercut it. They urged European governments to neither end their boycott of Hamas nor too closely embrace the unity government." According to a report, the "Gaza coup" was not launched in Gaza, but in Ramallah and the forces that brought instability to the Gaza Strip were funded and armed by the US. They did not represent Fatah or even a majority in Fatah, but rather a small minority of Fatah radicals. The vast majority of mainline forces in Fatah, and even a significant number in the Fatah Central Committee, did not support the arming of the Preventive Security Services (PSS). The leader of the PSS, Mohammad Dahlan, is now in exile.

About Israel Sato writes: "There is that which has been inflicted by Israel, not withstanding its responsibilities to the population, under international law, as occupying power: not just the killing of hundreds of civilians in sustained heavy incursions and the destruction of infrastructure, some of it wanton such as surgical strikes on the only power plant, as well as bridges in Gaza; also the cessation of VAT and customs duties which Israel collects, under the Paris Protocol signed with the PLO pursuant to the Oslo Accords, on behalf of the Palestinians." This is money collected from Palestinians. This is the main source of payment of salaries to PA employees. The US has pressurized the other in the Quartet from demanding Israel from paying this money, which legally belongs to the Palestinians. It was the US which told the Fatah not to join in Hamas government and scuttled the formation of a National Unity Government. Sato writes about the US role in pushing Fatah and Hamas into confrontation: "A week before Mecca (conference), the US envoy declared twice in an envoys' meeting in Washington how much "I like this violence", referring to the near-civil war that was erupting in Gaza." He writes that the Quartet is nothing but a "group of US friends". "Since the end of 2005 even though there has developed a generally agreed approach on some aspects of what should be demanded of the Palestinian side, this is not the case as regards Israel…The US…has very serious qualms about exerting pressure on Israel."

Now the Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas cut ties with Hamas, declared an emergency government, suspended the workings of the Palestinian Legislative Council, arrested dozens of Hamas legislative members, clamped down on anti-government protests, purged critics in his own Fatah movement, and announced that he would begin immediate talks with the Israeli government of Prime Minister Ehud Olmert. The non-payment of governmental salaries to Hamas members in the West Bank is causing bitterness because it cuts across family and tribal lines. By paying Fatah member, and not paying Hamas member, he is trying to divide the Palestinian society, which the US, the West, and Israel want. He not only turned his back on the Palestinians in Gaza, but even actively seeking their impoverishment in the UN (as he did, shamefully, when his diplomats blocked efforts to seek a Security Council statement on the humanitarian situation there), Abbas has set out to divide the Palestinian nation, to set it against itself.

Under these current circumstances and given outside interference, reconciliation is hard to contemplate. Fatah must accept a truly pluralistic system. Israel must internalize the need to bring the occupation to an end. The Quartet must accept the right of Palestinians to select their own leaders.

canuckchuck - I agree. Also the best way to discredit Hamas would be to allow them to try to govern. If Israel and the U.S. would have negotiated in good faith with Hamas they would have been forced to back down on their radical positions, endlessly negotiate or attack Israel.

Any of these choices would have weakened Hamas as opposed to Bu$h the inferior and Israel's aggressive stupidity that strengthened their grip on power.

Just a few minor points:

The definition of democracy? A number of the Israelis in the Israel Peace movement/s call the "Separation Wall" the Apartheid Wall. South Africa used to call itself a democracy, while denying a certain percentage of the population for no better reason than their ethnicity, the right to take part in decisions concerning their own lives, while allowing another ethnic group the right to make decisions concerning everybody. Everybody else said that it wasn't a democracy; that a definition of democracy includes allowing everybody to take part in the decisions that affect them.

The Hamas Gaza administration doesn't control the Gaza borders, the key to Gaza's trade and thus to Gaza's economic well-being; the IDF does control them, and quite frequently closes the border for "security" reasons that they also fail to explain - to anyone's satisfaction. The true administrators of Gaza, then, are the IDF, not Hamas. A similar situation obtains in the West Bank. The Palestinians aren't in control of their destiny; the IDF is. Israelis therefore have life-and-death powers over the Palestinians; Palestinians don't have reciprocal life-and-death powers over Israelis. Suicide bombings - like the kamikaze attacks in the Pacific War - are an act of final resistance, not control.

Is Israel then, a democracy? It has life-and-death powers over a population of at least three million, a population without reciprocal powers. (Just for the record, I for the same reasons, cannot accept that the US was a democracy before the Civil Rights protests. How many lynchings do I need to quote to prove my case?)

"Israel's right to exist". How many times must I make this sort of comment, that states recognize each other, not each other's "right to exist"? Nixon _never_ recognized the PRC's "right to exist" - he recognized the PRC. Conversely, the PRC _never_ recognized the US of A's "right to exist". It recognized the US. Ditto for the USSR, for the various European, Asian, African, Middle Eastern, and Oceanic states.

Since the language of diplomacy isn't what Israel is asking for here, we should ask, what are they asking for?

Simply put, for Palestinian acquiescence for the brutality of an-Naqba, the Catastrophe, the massive ethnic cleansing of Mandatory Palestine starting in April 1948. And no self-respecting Palestinian is going to buy that.

In closing: The "Quartet" so-called, should be rather named "The Gang of Four." Mao Tse-tung would approve - finally!

While I am not a fan of Hamas, I think the Abbas version of a "Palestinian State" might be called Bantustine. Nothing more than an apartheid style "homeland." Maybe this is a short term step toward a better solution but it is more like a prison than it is like autonomy. The real answer is a one state solution where all are equal citizens with shared national interests, not a continuation of apartheid with a terrifying imbalance of power.

Jaded Prole.

But that would be TOO democratic. A state that does not exist by "religious force" and does not govern according to one religious belief over the humanity of all that live within it.

Is that not asking too much of fundamentalists? Are not the present conditions quite similar to the times when Germans believed they were "Pure Aryans" and the rest of their population were either gypsies, jews, etc,.?

To complete the hypocrital circle the Zionists call all others in their neghborhood "cockroaches, islmo-fascists, dirty-arabs, etc, etc," And those that oppose duch views are called "antisemitic".

Could it be after all that the world is truly made up of mostly the likes of Cain and Abel fighting over who they're gonna have sex with and call their own?

Nevertheless JP your suggested solution is the most rational, humane, practical and democratic and thats why it aint gonna happen till around 2046.

Some dude had a extremely traumatic past, was persecuted and lost many members of his family. He is still so scarred from the past that he is really touchy and rather punchy against practically anyone who looks at him the wrong way. He thinks and says he is so together, how dare they look at him the wrong way?

The dude particulary fears those whose house he took - especially those of them that look at him the wrong way.

With support from his powerful bodybuilding friends, the dude relentlessly attacks those ex-residents who won't publicly grovel and recant their ownership of the house the dude took from them. The dude particular hates those who won't actively accept his ownership of their old house. The dude and his friends fear them so much they divided them and are starving the renegades amongst them into submission. Those who grovel are getting fed.

But any of those renegades' supporters who also look the wrong way must be cut off and probably one day be bashed for their cheek in not knowing who is boss. Anyone who dares to look the wrong way must be removed so that the dude's past suffering might never happen again.

Oh if only the dude had a happier past and wasn't full of such fear and hate of anyone who resists him or looks at him the wrong way.

Is this dude actually living in a never-ending paranoia? How can the dude be healed, be made happy one day, without it being at someone elses expense?
.

This article and the even better comments here are great...I wish our Leaders and diplomats could have such an open discussion.....
Wouldn't that be a Change!
Maybe we will be so busy fixin our bridges in the future that we won't have as much time and money to spend on the never ending racket of War.
Love, Jim

ANY COUNTRY THAT INVADES AND BRUTALLY OCCUPIES ANOTHER COUNTRY STEALS THE LAND AND WATER AQUIFERS, CREATES AN APARTHEID STATE, MURDERS INNOCENT CIVILIANS AND IMPRISONS THEM IS QUITE RIGHTLY CALLED A SHITTY LITTLE COUNTRY....

AS A PRETEXT JIMMY CARTER DESCRIBED IT AS WORSE THAN THE APARTHEID IN SOUTH AFRICA

DuraMater - "Israel's right to exist". My point exactly.
When Nixon recognized PRC - He did not had to recognized china right to exists, since the US never said that china should be destroyed.
The Hamas officially calls for the destruction of Israel.
The Hamas officially say they have a NATURAL RIGHT TO KILL JEWS.

After saying that Israel has no right to exist - They should publically say that they changed their mind that now they agree that Israel has a right to exist.

To Learn more - google about the Hamas charter dude.

DuraMater - "Since the language of diplomacy isn't what Israel is asking for here, we should ask, what are they asking for?"

This is a quote for the Hamas charter:
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."

Are you sure that these fanatic are willing to talk?

DuraMater - "Simply put, for Palestinian acquiescence for the brutality of an-Naqba, the Catastrophe, the massive ethnic cleansing of Mandatory Palestine starting in April 1948"

I have an even simplified truth.
Here is the order of thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
November 1947 - UN resolution 181 offers to divide Palestine into two states, a Jewish state and an Arab state.
The Jewish Yeshuv accept UN resolution 181, The Arabs league, and the Palestinians leadership reject that solution. Instead they descide to go on a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
The Jewish state survived.
As a result of that war - about 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from Israel (The Palestinian Nakba). And some 900,000 Jews were expelled from Arab countries.
The number of Jews who die in what was planed to be a war of Genocide was 6,373 (4,000 troops and about 2,400 civilians)
The total number of Arabs who died is unknown, and estimated between 5,000 and 15,000

So you see my friend. Your simple explanation is only half the story.

DuraMater - A few points on your few points:

"A number of the Israelis in the Israel Peace movement/s call the "Separation Wall" the Apartheid Wall"

There is freedom of speech in Israel. For all I care - they can call it Micky Mouse or any any name they want. The question is: Are they correct?

The wall is 90% fence, 10% wall. So calling it "wall" seems to be a little obscure.
According to Dictionary.com Apartheid means "racial segregation".
The barrier / wall is separating people based on citizenship. Not base on race or skin color as it was in S. Africa.
Palestinian are not of a different race that other Israelis. Palestinians and Jews are of the same race. With similar skin color. More than that - 1.2 million Palestinians have Israeli citizenship, and are NOT separated. The Palestinians who ARE separated - are ones who does not have Israeli citizenship.

Conclusion - both words "Apartheid" and "Wall" poorly describe the barrier.

Also - based on statistical fatalities before and after the barrier was built - save the lives of hundreds of people a year. (Israelis and Palestinians alike)
If you have to do the math, let hundreds of people die every year - or build a barrier that doesn't look good, and cause economical suffering - I would say build the dame thing. Life come first.

DuraMater - "closes the border for "security" reasons that they also fail to explain "

I'll explain. the security reasons are mostly suicide bomber. You can look here.
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=Suicide%20bombers%20in%20Israel&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

I hope that helps.

DuraMater - "Is Israel then, a democracy?"

Is the USA a democracy? Is Canada a Democracy? Canada occupy Afghanistan, but the Afghan does not have right to vote for the Canadian house of common.

As for your question - Israel is a Democracy. It is a Democracy with some problems.
The Economist did a research about the Democratic ranking of all the countries in the world. Israel is ranked # 47 in the world, as a flawed democracy. Yet Israel is ranked #1 in the middle east.
http://www.economist.com/media/pdf/DEMOCRACY_TABLE_2007_v3.pdf

dcbeltway - If you had read my comment thermally, you would have noticed that I said that the Barrier is 10% wall 90% fence.

I'm only after the truth and I agree with you that some of the barrier is a wall.

Vets regardless of what photos we both post Palestinians have limited movement and cannot freely go from place to place and this is apartheid.

From the sounds of things the people of Israel need to do the same thing we Americans need to do and thats start working on a sustainable future with the things and people around us, as well as take back our respective country from the rule of the international corporations. There is no good empire just good people. The businesses have their own government. Obviously.

#
thomas j hussey August 3rd, 2007 6:59 pm

"Ah, yes, everybody's an anti-semite but you and me, and I'm not so sure about you."

I love it!

"It´s A Hell", otherwise known by western colonialist fascists as "Israel" is, by any definition, not a "shitty little country".

It is just plain "shitty".

For a country it is most assuredly not.

It is nothing other than a western corporate interest regime installed anathema to peace, justice, and the equal rights of all humans.

Bugger the completely phony "two state solution" and those who expound the lie.

There is only one honest solution:

One state, called Greater Palestine, in which all Semites and others who would willingly choose to live there accept the rule of impartial law and equal rights for all humans.

Frankly, for my two cents any individual currently squatting in Palestine while they profess to be "Jewish" can prove that their families lived in Palestine prior to 1919 or they can prepare to be sent back wherever they came from. Such as Russia and other European "states" who have butchered them in their millions for several hundred years.

The entire situation is a fraud and crime against extant statutes as well as humanity.

As for those of you wasting yourselves trying to discuss such inanities as "is it a wall or is it a fence?", instead of when and how do we remove the western colonial affront to justice and the equal rights of all humans that is known as "It´s A Hell", are you truly not able to perceive that there are more pressing issues to be resolved than the "correct" name for the Nazi Concentration Camp Barrier that "shitty" little "Israel" has built?

1. Full inspections of all facilities throughout "Israel" for the location of their illegally held WMD´s.

2. Complete destruction of all their illegal WMD´s.

3. Enforced compliance with earlier UN castigations and the rule of extant law concerning human rights or immediate full sanctions brought to bear including freezing & confiscation of assets in order to render recompense to the wrongfully genocided Palestinian Arabic Semites.

In closing, for the slower members of the human race, Semites, regardless of what Neocon Zionists spew on their propaganda outlets, is a linguistic term relating to those who speak Semitic languages and has ZERO to do with whether or not somebody has elected to call themselves "Jewish".

Consider yourself conned by liars for personal profit, as usual.

dcbeltway - It is true that "Palestinians have limited movement and cannot freely go from place to place". However we are not in agreement that such restrictions fits the definition of apartheid.

When in doubt, check the Dictionary, see if it imply to the above case:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/apartheid

Were these restrictions imposed on Palestinians in order to stop suicide bombers from roaming the streets of Israel? Or were they imposed due to race / skin color / cast?

Are all the Palestinians being restricted? Or just Palestinians who don't have Israeli citizenship?

And another question:
Did you ever ranked all the countries in the world by their apartheidhood level?
I can think of many examples of countries which far better suitable for that title. Starting from your own country dcbeltway, which build a barrier that impose restriction on the movement of Mexicans. Mexican immigrants who don't even try to commit suicide attack, or risk the life of a single American citizen.

Beowulf - I agree with you that the question "if the barrier is a fence or wall" is a question of small impotent. I went into it just because I think that all civilized argument should be held base on true facts only. I respect dcbeltway, I don't always agree with him, but I think he should be more accurate with little details when he publish accusations.

As for your suggestion of one state solution - I'm not sure it will work in the near future in the Israeli Palestinian respect.
Such a solution work in places such as Switzerland and Belgium. But it didn't worked in other cases such as Yugoslavia, Lebanon and Iraq.
Hatred level in is very high in the Middle East - I fear that if you try to impose one state solution - you will have civil war.
In the short run I believe stopping the immediate violence is the priority, and that two state solution is preferable. Maybe in the next generation - When people will not hate each other that much, then we could work on uniting the two states into one.

I fail to see why a legal Immigration of people that fled countries where they were persecuted, is a "fraud and crime against extant statutes as well as humanity."

Beowulf - "Nazi Concentration Camp Barrier", It (Israel) is just plain "shitty".
Absurd, don't be ridiculous.

Beowulf - "Semites is a linguistic term relating to those who speak Semitic languages and has ZERO to do with whether or not somebody has elected to call themselves "Jewish".

OK, So some American Christian who elected to call themselves Jews - are not Semites. But the resident of Israel / Palestine, who speak Hebrew and Arabic (both are Semite languages) are Semite. I fail to see the importance of that statement.

dcbeltway - I have read some of Ian Pape's material (He is a professor in Haifa University) and I agree with his conclusion that in 1948 there was ethnic cleansing, and massacres. I never denied that. (B.T.W - I dope you will not deny that it happened on both sides)

Ethnic cleansing however is not synonym with Apartheid.

If finding contradictions between dictionary definitions of Apartheid, and the actual status in the West Bank means I "stoop into new lows" - So be it.

I rather say fateful to the truth.

Call me a lier, but I don't agree that a fence is a wall, and that the Palestinians who don't hold Israeli passport are a race different than Jews.

gyptian - OK everybody … remember .. you just have to ignore 'gyptian'. This NAZI Party, Arian nation, white supremacists member, has publicly called on the pages of Common Dreams for the genocide of six million people. (He said that all non-liberal Jews who live in Israel should be shot).

In addition, gyptian is also a lier. He claim that I'm a member of AIPAC. Where the truth is that I am not a member, nor do I have any affiliation with that evil organization. In fact - AIPAC is an American organization and I don't even live in the states. But don't let the facts stop you gyptian from spreading your hate message.

Another lie that gyptian enlist to his agenda is that I claimed that any one who is anti-Israeli is also anti- Semite. Not true. I define anti-Semitism based on the European Monitoring centre on racism and Xenophobia.
A person can be anti-Israeli and not anti-Semite. Noam Chomski is a good example.

(B.T.W - A call for a genocide of six million Jews is not just anti-Israeli)

Bush does not know what a peace policy is. He creates nothing but hatred and war. Every President since Truman has known that is takes steady and continuous involvement in this region to make any progress. It is frustrating but a necessary act after Israel was allowed to exist in the midst of neighbors that want to destroy it.

You can not just become obsessed with Iraq and tell Israel that they can do whatever they want in the region. That leads to what we have now. Bush just does not want to be BOTHERED with details. He did not want to be bothered with al-Qaeda before 9/11 and he certainly does not want to be bothered with the Israel/Palestine situation that has been going on for so long. He might fail and he wants to pick winners and look good. Like Colin Powell said about Iraq, you break it, you own it.

vets you are a friggin idiot. You should probably read all my posts before you vomit on this forum as always. Aryan nation huh ?? What a moron. Im impervious to your rabid drivel. Hatred is a strong term I reserve my hatred for our fearless leaders and also for the fearless leaders of countries like israel who destroy the livelihoods of innocent people and you know that. While you are busy frothing at the mouth take a step back and understand that any criticism of israeli policies does not automatically make you a holocaust denier !!!

Now go away and make sure you dont kick your dog ...

Vets while some Jews were expelled from Arab nations and Iran during the creation of Israel the majority left voluntarily as they were fervent Zionists. I will emphasize though that the expulsion of Jews from these nations was wrong. The Arabs no doubt did it as a reaction to the expulsion of Arab Palestinians from Israel. In the Middle East an eye for an eye will always be with us. It should also be noted that Zionists have played a militant role in ensuring Jews left Arab nations in order to convince them to come to Israel. Israel needed Jews to maintain a majority over the Palestinians. In Egypt in 1954 Zionist groups set off bombs to convince Jews they were in danger and to leave Egypt for Israel according to the author of the book The Gun & the Olive Branch, David Hirst. Wilbur Crane Eveland, a former US CIA operative, wrote about the 'Zionist crimes' against Arab Jews in Iraq (Feuerlicht, The Fate of the Jews, p 231).

There are still Sephardic Jewish communities today in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Syria, Yemen, Iran (the largest outside Israel), and Iraq (though many are leaving due to the current war). In Morocco you can walk into stores and find Menorahs stacked next to Islamica items side by side as Morocco is very tolerant and equitable towards indigenous Jewish community. In Marrakech you can still visit the Jewish quarter and I have been there myself.

I would also like to add that Palestinian refugees did not expel Jews from their home countries. However, today Palestinians are the largest refugee group in the world because they were expelled by the Jewish settlers.

Amira Haas and Israeli Jew who wrote a book called Drinking in the Sea at Gaza writes often about Apartheid in Israel. Jimmy Carter our former US President has written about it to. Why you have no empathy for the other side and look at Arab Palestinian Muslims and Arab Palestinian Christians as not suffering under apartheid makes me sick to my stomach. Many Jews in Israel sympathize with the Palestinian's plight just look at Betslem and other groups. You however cannot even see the Israeli dove point of view.

Dura not citizenship but religion. Even Israeli Arabs (The small percentage Palestinians who managed to obtain Israeli citizenship) cannot travel to Gaza or the West Bank without permits. Some cannot travel to both of these places at all.

Thanks for posting about the borders...what a nightmare for so many Palestinians!

Wow, vets, you fell into the trap without my even trying! To help you extricate your foot from your mouth:

"The barrier / wall is separating people based on citizenship. Not base on race or skin color as it was in S. Africa."

I thought you would know that South Africa under Apartheid used to allocate citizenship based on race. If you were a "Bantu", you were allocated a citizenship in one of the Bantustans, and were permitted to work in the place of your birth, provided you were "adequately" certified.

Now a good number of the Palestinians and their descendants have been trying to get back to the place of their birth, ever since an-Naqba, the Catastrophe of 1948. but they haven't been allowed. Now why is that? According to what you say:

"Palestinian are not of a different race that other Israelis. Palestinians and Jews are of the same race. With similar skin color. More than that - 1.2 million Palestinians have Israeli citizenship, and are NOT separated. The Palestinians who ARE separated - are ones who does not have Israeli citizenship."

there should be no problem. So why did haGanah and Lehi and Etzl work so hard in 1948 to work a gerrymander of the Mandatory Palestine electorate? Could it be a resurgence of that good old fashioned European bigotry towards the Middle East?

And why is Lieberman - the Israeli incarnation - in the Knesset? He makes the Austrian Haidar look progressive!

Simplified histories miss the point. November 1947, the UN did indeed issue that Resolution 181. I have read the Arab League's explanations for why they rejected it - and they have a lot more to do with common-or-garden decency than the Zionist explanations for wanting to upset the applecart in Mandatory Palestine. Explanations such as the undeniable fact that in the "Jewish" partition, there would be as many Arabs as Jews, so uprooting them would be an injustice. An injustice as bad as the expulsion of the Jews and Muslims from Catholic Spain in 1492; an injustice as bad as the expulsion of the Polish Jews from Germany in 1938.

But the Yishuv was adamant, and so were their imperial backers. So Mandatory Palestine descended into chaos; on the 9th of April, 1948, the terrorist groups Lehi and Etzl descended on a village called Deir Yassin, that had been trying to stay out of trouble, on the route from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem, and failed to take it, until they roped in a group from haGanah to help. They killed about 120 people - not 250 as was misleadingly advertised to the world - and expelled the survivors - for I think the loss of perhaps one individual, if even that - which ranks with the statistics you find associated with My Lai and Lidice.

After that, the Palestinians were too terrified of that happening to themselves to put up a strong resistance. So an-Naqba commenced - but the Arab League nations didn't invade until the Israeli Declaration of Independence, 14 May 1948.

Timing's more important than you think

But let me jump to a different matter, the place where you indicated your favoured shoe is your mouth:

"DuraMater - "closes the border for "security" reasons that they also fail to explain "

I'll explain. the security reasons are mostly suicide bomber. You can look here.
http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&resnum=0&q=Suicide%20bombers%20in%20Israel&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

I hope that helps."

A situation which I am deeply concerned about, is the closure of the Rafah border crossing. People have been stranded there on the Egyptian side of the border for getting on close to two months now, and some seriously ill people have died. Rafah borders Egypt. I take it the Egyptians are so deeply concerned about seasoned and experienced suicide bombers invading Cairo hospitals from Cairo via Gaza City, that they asked the IDF to close Rafah? Israel controls that border crossing, and it doesn't even border Israel.

Perhaps you can explain?

Asking Palestinians for 'citizenship' is like asking Native Americans for 'citizenship' in the U.S. !!!