If the difference is global statements vs. specific ones, why not combine the two. This is not a Republican or Democratic issue. This is an American issue.

RE: DEMOCRATIC COMMITMENT TO THE "AFA" - MEANS OF CHANGE, OR WAY OF SUCKERING PROGRESSIVES INTO A DEM VOTE?

NICHOLS WRITES:
the "American Freedom Agenda has set the standard that the new American Freedom Campaign should adopt with regard to presidential candidates....if candidates won't commit to the Constitution during the campaign, it is a safe bet that they will not do so once they are in office."

RESPONSE:
For "tactical" third party-ists like myself, Democratic candidates' willingness to embrace the AFA agenda will be ONE determinant of whether I vote Democrat vs., as I expect, third party.

There are major risks to focusing progressive energies on getting Democratic candidates to sign on to the AFA:

1) A candidate's 'signing-on' may be an empty promise - that, after being elected, they will weasel out of.

In this connection, see Glenn Smith's 7/27 Commondreams article, which argued that, if Congress does not reverse Bushco's executive-uber-alles actions now, it is unlikely a Democratic President will later:

Congress, Bush and The Real Constitutional Crisis
"The Bush gambit is to permanently derail progressive policy goals by building an impenetrable wall between the people and their government and by asserting ultimate and absolute presidential authority....[But] a temporary eviction from the White House beginning in 2009 would not deter the neoconservatives and their anti-democratic allies...While a Democratic president would probably resist further steps along the above-the-law path, it's unlikely a president will willingly give up any power that has accrued to the presidency during the Bush reign."
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/27/2815/

2) A 2nd risk is that such a 'pledge' will let off pressure on Democratic candidates who want the progressive vote in return for nothing - in particular, signing-on to the pledge may encourage progressives to vote Democrat while getting nothing concrete on impreachment, the totalitarian 'executive' claims, or Iraq.

Thus, signing onto the AFA will not be enough to get my vote - but in my view, it should still be pressed.

The real patriots are finally standing up. We are neither democrats nor republicans if we are not Americans first. The administration that has hijacked the Constitution, has been destroying American society, and has brought misery and fear to our doorstep is not Republican. It belongs to a a very dark and controlling ideology: that "New World Order" that the multi-generational Bush dynasty has been crafting. It includes establishing a permanent, domestically-generated "reign of terror" in order to control the citizenry and which would permeate every sector of American lives. The erosion of the educational system is not an accident; "no-child-left-behind" is a clever ploy to distract children from real learning and analytical thinking---the very thing that is needed for healthy skepticism and the ability to challenge tyranny.

Just remember the key sound bite phrases: "if-you're-not-with-us-you're-with-them," "I-believe-in-the-ownership-society." They have a twisted meaning wrapped inside them and they are cleverly meant to fool us. The "us" are the neo-theo-cons, the "them" is everyone else. "Ownership" means BEING owned by the reich wing ruling establishment; ergo slave wages, control, fearmongering, an informant-citizenry, threat of punishment, etc...oh dear, we are the soviet union reborn. When you "own" the language, you own the people. Don't answer the knock on your door, it could be SS Blackwater (have you seen their official logo?).
What's that new Halliburton/Blackwater "detention center" in your neighborhood?

What would Jesus do indeed, and what woud Thomas Paine and Orwell say!

Repugs are doing a lot of back pedaling before the election. Fool me once... you won't git fooled agin.

Statement on the Articles of Impeachment

Barbara Charline Jordan Statement on the Articles of Impeachment

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/barbarajordanjudiciarystatement.htm

I like this idea of getting a clear committment from candidates on the issue of defending the Constitution (in the specific language of the pledges above), though just typing that made me realize how low we've gone. I certainly hold little hope that Democrats will do what's right simply because it's right; the record speaks too clearly otherwise. (Just look at the earmark debacle covered by Bill Moyer's Journal.) Is this a litmus test for the progressives who look at our terrible political state today? It ought to be. I agree with Baska, there needs to be language about rescinding the overreaching powers accorded to the executive under the Bush administration.

Smoke and mirrors. Hollow words.
The constitution is no longer relevant.
The United States no longer exists.
Without the impeachment, arrest and prosecution of the fascists (which won't happen) this chapter of history is over.
Welcome to the fascist North American Union.

relayer@q.com

It would almost qualify as theater of the absurd that the Republicans are trying to rope in the trespasses of the Bush cabal. (Of course it could be argued, they wouldn't dare allow such leverage to a democratic president, even if the 160 plus postings yesterday on David Michael Greene's discussion of a 3rd party warranted a general consensus that there's not enough viable difference between the current "two" parties.) ANY agency that ropes in these would-be-emperors is OKAY by me! How sad that we have to revivify the Constitution, this sleeping document that's gone comotose thanks to those that have done what they could to avoid ITS conscience.
Last July 4 there were massive floods in Washington, D.C. The building that houses our Constitution was nearly under water! A curator (or museum director) was called late at night about this possibility! And I thought here is Mother Nature again sending HER version of sign language... our liberties being WASHED away. Apt.

Place: White House, the Oval Office

Time: November 2005

Occasion: Meeting of Congressional Republican leaders and President Bush regarding the renewal of the USA Patriot Act

Tell-tale exchange between Bush and one of the visitors:

"Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said. "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution."

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

Telling, isn't it, that Honorable Bush thinks of the Constitution as damned by God, not blessed by God?

I suppose that God and Bush, who has direct access to God, as he has told us himself, have a better constitution in store for us.

I personally don't have a religious level of commitment to the constitution, and so while if I were in congress I would not endorse this document, and thereby falsely claim that I wasn't out to ban guns and end...a certain type of trial (I forgot the term, yes.)

Signing a pledge is about as powerful as voting for a non-binding resolution.

If the suggested signers of the pledge have any seriousness, morals or humanity at all they will immediately ACT to:

INITIATE impeachment proceedings against Cheney/Bush and the rest of that gang;

REPEAL the Military Commissions Act, The Patriot Act and a whole host of unconstitutional legislation that they have signed on to and/or acquiesced to;

ESTABLISH a system to publicly finance political campaigns;

OUTLAW lobbying and other forms of legal bribery;

INTRODUCE proportional voting and other more democratic means of political representation;

TAKE THE PARTIES OUT OF legislative re-districting;

DISMANTLE the Electoral College, etc., etc, etc.

While we are waiting for them to do that I will PLEDGE to not shoot my neighbors because I don't like their tastes in music.

We'll see who upholds their pledges.

Thanks all the same to John Nichols and the pledge designers who came up with these nice ideas. In fact, CCR and to a lesser extent, HRW do fine work of their own. Move On is, well...Move On. We can Move On to more useful things and leave them to putting a "liberal" face on the work of the DLC.

RE: SIGNING PLEDGE = NONBINDING RESOLUTION

tj July 28th, 2007 3:25 pm
"Signing a pledge is about as powerful as voting for a non-binding resolution."

Yup. My point in far fewer words.

I agree with baska. All of these candidates, if they hold federal office, have sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution. For those that have not already made this pledge in their service (disservice?) to the nation, are assumed to have to take that pledge upon taking office.

I think that taking the pledges, as proposed by Nicols, are worse than counter productive. Particularly for any candidates that are currently serving in Congress. They have all already proven, whether Dem or Repub, that they will not uphold their oath to protect and defend the Constitution.

These pledges are just another distraction from the true constitutional crisis we face TODAY. Right now. I'm not willing to put off holding this congress's feet to the fire to do their duty. Period.

Message to the House of Representatives: IMPEACH NOW!! Start by supporting/signing onto HR333 and get it ON THE TABLE and onto the floor of the House for debate! Dick first, then the current occupant of the White House.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to also put Gonzo on the impeacheachment table now too.

I know these congress critters can multitask. Give them ALL an earfull while they are in their home districts in the month of August!! Face to face! No more of their obscene e-mails that tell me they have other, more important things to do!

RE: AND GREAT CONCRETE COUNTER-PROPOSALS TOO

tj July 28th, 2007 3:25 pm

And - lest posters skim it - great concrete proposals too. And humor - which just might keep spirits alive in a dark time.

Giambattista Vico spoke of governments moving in cycles. After Democracy comes Chaos. Is this the End Times for These United States? Perhaps. Throughout mythology we find the Trixter whose job is it to shake things up so that the world can begin anew. Sometimes these creatures are animals like Ananci the spider, Raven or Coyote and sometimes they appear in human form as Kali, Hecate, Baba Yaga and George Bush. In my lifetime the United States has grown far too greedy, cruel and dangerous for this world. It is the duty of humanity and Americal patriots to put an end to it. The New American Fascist^ Dictatorship will be painful and bloody. And so it goes...
.
Vico observed that Theocracys follow Chaos so I think we will suffer under the Religious Reich for some time to come. I see that the Walton billionares have been pushing for an Aristocracy, the next cycle, by removing the estate tax. Will our children ever see our democracy again? It looks doubtful. Persephone moves to Hades on election day but who knows if she will return for a New American Springtime.
.
-whatfools opinion
.
.
^Fascist: rule by the corporations.
.
See 'Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad' for how our constitution was overthrown by the corporations.

Why are the American people like a herd of cattle? Here is why. One cowboy can control a vast herd of cattle who could, if they only realized it, together run him down or they could also, working together, go through any fence, whether electric strand or post and wire, and gain their freedom.

We have 300 million people in this land that are being controlled by a small group of liars and propagandists and made to believe all is in their best interests. Wake up, people, we should be able to do better than a herd of cattle.

Siouxrose and What Fools. Thank you again for reminding us.

Yes, our current recorded history is a few thousand years, but the history of Earth and the humanity who lived here prior to that time is recorded also. We just no longer have that ancient written history. Were we there?

What little history we do have, has been passed down through the ages by fables, stories, visions and dreams. Those ancient fables and dreams are so similar for all of the varied races of man.

There are a few who have been granted the rare gifts of insight and awareness, and an elevated use of their inner sixth sense. At times those special ones have a brief memory of our true past. A few are allowed to recall portions of the continuing Universal War,___ a war of good versus evil.

I believe a few of those special people, post here on Common Dreams.

WHAT FOOLS: Thank you for bringing interesting mystical metaphors into this debate. Indeed, this is a phase of long prophesied transition... like ocean currents mixing and producing chaos as they interact (and this on the "as above, so below" scale). WHAT comes of it is open to free will on singular and collective levels; the timing, however, has been given and IS being enacted. The rightwing "END TIMES" zealots would LIKE to bring on Armageddon, an "end to it all," whereas the enlightened would like to see the phase of nation states and fiscal hierarchies implode so that a more egalitarian order TRULY respectful towards life in its myriad expressions can begin to seed and eventually thrive. EVEN if we do not see the fulfillment of this eventual outcome, those of us who sense the continuity of the soul, or leave behind grandchildren will know that SOME will participate in a new Eden... there will be wounded places, as EVELYN SMITH has well made clear as per depleted uranium. The age of the earth is billions of years, the trace of civiliation goes back only a mere several thousand. Civilizations have come and gone before us; but the eternal soul carries a dim recollection of all that was, and all that may be. MATTER can neither be created nor destroyed and from the perspective of higher realms, we are what MATTERS. Peace.

Yes, the pledge, like the Constitution is just "a god damned piece of paper"... but that is only one way to look at it.

The Republican Candidates apparently see it as a campaign promise that could bite them on the tush. Kind of like "Read my lips, NO new taxes!" Yes, any office holder has sworn fealty to the Constitution, but the Bushie's put their loyalty to Bush far above it.

The swearing in ceremonies are like a coronation: all kinds of symbolism and Pomp and Circumstance. Swearing to uphold the Constitution and the laws etc are just another part of the drill, especially when 90% of the on-lookers have no idea what it says beyond letting them own a gun.

OTOH, signing either of these pledges, or both of them, is something that can easily be understood and publicized. Like the Contract For America, those who won't sign will have to explain why. Those who do sign and fail to live up to it, can be outed.

That may explain why the Republican Candidates are not signing on. I wonder where Hillary and Obama would fall. Probably he'd sign, she wouldn't, but she'd tell the world how naive he is.

Think about it: It might separate some of the sheep from the wolves. If I knew a bookie, I'd put money on Hill turning it down, and then nattering about how she's already agreed to support and defend the Constitution and this is just a god damned piece of paper...

A very conservative acquantance of mine told me in 2003 before our attack on Iraq began, "If this is based on lies, all hell will break loose!" He did not believe that Bush would attack Iraq. I am still waiting for "all hell to break loose." Are there no people of courage in positions of power left in this country of sheep? The evidence of high crimes is overwhelming, but the response is to ignore and look the other way, spin and lie. This dark side of the American experience has come to dominate. Will it destroy our noble experiment, this time? It is time for the little people like you and me to speak to power; time to speak with one voice and demand that the criminals in power be held accountable, and be removed from power.

It is not just presidential candidates. Every letter I write to any politician contains a reminder that we elected a Democratic Majority for just five simple reasons:

We the People want our Constitution and Bill of Rights returned to the Halls of Government, intact and functioning, to be the rule and guide of our nation, as it was for over two centuries, through many greater crises than what Bush manufactured..

We the People want the Patriot Act and the Military Commissions Act repealed, habeas corpus and the posse comitatus returned.

We want to see an end to the Iraq and Afghan wars and occupations and the troops returned home.

We want an end to illegal surveillance, torture, gulags, renditions. We want the Geneva Conventions on the treatment of prisoners to be strictly observed.

We want the war criminals, liars and thieves which make up the Cheney/Bush regime impeached and removed from office, as quickly as possible before they get us into a still wider war in the Middle East or elsewhere. Then to be tried for their crimes against the Constitution they swore to protect and defend, against We the People of the United States, and against the world.

If the Democrats would do this, they would not have to worry about reelection. Since they steadfastly refuse to homnestly face any of the above, the time has come for We the People to go for independents who will swear to abide by the Constitution and Bill of Rights and fight for a return of the United States to that of a nation of honor and compassion, trusted by the world.

Granted, We the People have a lot of work ahead of us, but as JFK said, "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country."

Right now, there is little incentive, but new, genuine statesmanship and leadership could help us turn the corner. We have to seek it out.

I do believe I have strayed off of the primary subject here. It is late, time to shut up.

KEM as I have said before (in case it was at the end of a thread and you missed it), your good heart is so pure; you have managed to "be ye as children to enter the kingdom of God." Or was it Robert Goulet who sang, "For those who are young of heart"? I salute your willingness to learn from this forum and maintain a truly open mind. Plus you add much to it in return. That is FAIR TRADE of the cerebral/intellectual sort! Enjoy your Sunday.

Richard Viguerie? Richard Viguerie is concerned about the breakdown of the constitutional system of checks and balances and the loss of constitutional liberties? That's about like G W Bush being concerned about a runaway federal deficit.

No one single person is more closely identified with the merging of church and state than Richard Viguerie or the election of Christian conservatives. I have little doubt he played a critical role in the events leading up to the Supreme Court's "electing" Junior president in 2000, or a critical role in suppressing minority voters in 2004.

I would hasten to point out that all these "laws" that contravene the constitution may have "the color of law" but MUST be viewd as null and void from their very inception.
The constitution is THE HIGHEST LAW OF THE LAND.
No one has the legal authority (all legal authority being derived from the constitution itself) to contravene, or contradict the constitution. No one. Not the president, not the congress, not the courts. Only the people, by constitutional amendment.
What we are restoring is OBEDIENCE to the law that already exists.
Perhaps a fine pot, but I believe it's an important one.

SJ

www.spartacusjones.com

To those who say the constitution is irrelevant I say: Its all we got. If we throw out the rule book then anything goes and its just a question of which tyrant you want to choose (Hillary and Rudy both seem capable of being tyranical to me).

I suspect that Ron Paul is the only guy in either party who is serious about trying to restore constitutional values. He talks about the constitution and is labeled a kook for doing so. I know he doesn't do well with Democrats because he threatens things like univeral health coverage. Lets assume the majority of Americans want univeral health coverage. Why don't we amend the constitution to say so? Three possible answers are a) that we don't think its important, i.e. we don't care about the rule of law or b) that it wouldn't pass, i.e. we want a program that the majority of Americans don't want and c) it is already covered by the penumbras of the emanations etc., i.e. we can interpret anything we want into the Constitution. None of these are good answers. It seems that if Democrats (Disclaimer: I am not a member of either party) are serious about returning to Constitutional values they need to address this. Bush has horribly abused the Constitution but to replace him with someone who may be less abusive but who has their own pet abuses doesn't seem like a very good solution either.

It has been fascinating and informative to read these posts.

No, Kem, you weren't off track. We are in a time of challenge to the survival of our country as critical as the time of the civil war. But this time, it is under threat of a corporate/fascist takeover.

Siouxrose, it is always such a treat to read your posts. I have wondered how many times going back many millions of years how often civilizations have risen and fallen, obliterating all traces of their being? How many times has this planet purged itself and started fresh? Global warming is one way to do it. Maybe they should stop calling it global warming and call it global heating. Warming sounds a little too comfortable.

This goddamned piece of paper is only worth as much respect as we are willing to give it. And clearly almost no currently elected official today is willing to treat it as the highest law of the land. This experiment of democracy is on the verge of failure.

We are electing people who are acting like a bunch of bureaucrats looking out for themselves instead of looking out for us. Public servants? What a joke. Public vultures.

I have to be fair. There are a few politicians looking out for us. But you won't run out of fingers and toes counting them.

KATHYODAT: Thank you for the warm compliment. This site is very compelling for me because true to the progressive "umbrella" it attracts such a broad spectrum of people, and some of their contributions (in fields of respective expertise) often out do the articles they comment upon!
I hope that the originators of Commondreams website will consider hosting an event where we can meet, brainstorm (a small version of World Social Forum) and perhaps raise money for initiatives like sponsoring some orphan children from Iraq; and possibly publishing a "best of Commondreams" volume divided into subjects like: World economics, Gender-equality Initiatives, How to NOT have another unitary executive; Clean Energy resources and breakthroughs, etc. The sale of this volume would raise revenue so that commondreams could perhaps sponsor something else: a live pod cast or radio program?
We might also consider a joint fund FROM "commondreamers" that would buy a one page ad in a newspaper generally read in a "red state" that perhaps lists the Bush & co transgressions, pierce the armor of the Rush Limbaugh crowd.
Ideas?

THANK YOU VERY VERY MUCH SPARTACUS JONES!!

Our Constitution is the "supreme" law of the land and if not,___ then there is NO law in America.

Why did Cindy Sheehan go to Congressman Conyer's office with the petitions to impeach?

The answer is___ because Conyers is the only man dead or alive, who is holding up HB-333. Conyers is violating the laws of the Constitution and no one is doing a single thing about that most serious crime.

The law states, if the President, or VP, commits a crime which violates any laws of the Constitution, congress SHALL impeach them. It is not written they may be, or could be, or perhaps they should be impeached. Is says they SHALL be impeached.__ PERIOD.

Conyers has refused to enact the impeachment bill and he is breaking the SUPREME law of the land. Why has no other congress person gone to a federal court and had the necessaty papers drawn up and signed by a federal judge,__ to have Conyers arrested?

Congressman Kacinich is not afraid is he? I don't believe he is, perhaps he has not thought of having Conyers arrested. Now that arrest might make it onto the news, maybe as much coverage as Paris Hilton gets.

The Constitution still is the supreme law of the land,___ so far.

Thank you for the very kind commments Siouxrose and Kathy.___ I'm still kinda cute too.

mxjmorrise July 29th, 2007 1:39 pm

We're not "throwing out the rule book". Dick Cheney and George Bush have done so and no one has made any real effort to stop them. The phrase "tipping point" has become popular of late. I think that point has long passed and it's too late to stop the catastrophe that's unfolding.
So be it.
Perhaps the next cycle of evolution will produce something better.
All I've ever wanted is Peace.
non_sequitur@q.com

Not horribly cute, but I am humble.

Non Sequitur July 29th, 2007 3:01 pm

I am not accusing everyone of disregarding the Constitution, just some posts. I am in agreement with most of what has been said. I agree completely with what you say about Cheney and Bush. I hope you are wrong about the "tipping point" but fear you are right. "So be it" is easy to say but having children makes it a bitter pill to swallow.

Yankee: I've tried to point that out many times to Christians, and they have an answer to everything. Christ is both the lion and lamb, he wants us to be materially (?) happy, etc. Methinks the pharisees and lenders have booted Christ out of the modern church.

If you take a long view of the history of religion, you might end up concluding that mainstream Christianity went sour about 1,700 years ago when it went from Christ's subversive movement to a mainstream religion of Empire.

Okay, you all win.____ I quit.

Hope most of you get herpies.

The U.S. Constitution is not a static document. It is always interpreted by the party in power, and to the advantage of the party in power, with the help of the Supremes.
One of the most stimulating books I have read about the Constitution, and those who challenge it, is David Ray Papke's HERETICS IN THE TEMPLE: AMERICANS WHO REJECT THE NATION'S LEGAL FAITH. The Bush-Cheney Admnistration, to use a metaphor, are maggots in a healthy piece of meat. You can hear them seething. What flies will take off in 2008? A rhetorical question. www.genedebslaborensemble.org

Oops, senior moment in previous message, wrong address for my website: it is www.debslaborensemble.org

mxjmorrise July 29th, 2007 3:51 pm

I have a wife and children. And grandchildren. And nieces and nephews, aunts and uncles, cousins, a sister, my father is still alive.
I have a HUGE family –the entire human race.
I mourn for all the innocents that have been and will be murdered in the name of capitalism.

We have been launched into a state of permanent war. Cheney, Bush and the rest of the new royalty have no intention of relinquishing control in their lifetimes.
Sometime, in the next 6 months or so, American will experience another false flag "terrorist attack", a new and improved 911. Martial law is just around the corner.
Within the next 3 to 5 years we will see the North American Union become a global, military dictatorship featuring Bush with his ball & Cheney as supreme commanders.
The machinery of perpetual war has been set in motion. No amount of protest, petitions or yakking on the Internet will stop it.
All I ever wanted was Peace.
non_sequitur@q.com

xntrk - you say:

"Signing either of these pledges, or both of them, is something that can easily be understood and publicized. Like the Contract For America, those who won't sign will have to explain why. Those who do sign and fail to live up to it, can be outed ..."

I agree with this. Signing either (or better, both) of these statements demonstrates that the signer recognizes the threat to democracy the Bush/Cheney dictatorship poses. Neither statement is perfect (although the Rep one is better because it is more detailed), but they do start the conversation this country needs and point to the possibility of actual cooperation between the parties on these issues. After all, when your house is burning down you don't argue over the politics of the firemen. And this country's house is burning down.

An e-mail petition is not a valid petition, they are worthless and are shit canned, after they collect the names and look up your addresses on Google.

Kem,
Hate to tell you, but any petition above the local level gets 'shit canned'.

No one in their right mind expects any government or elected official to respond. These are aimed at the general public - which is woefully ignorant.

I'll refer you once again to the 'Contract With America': Not a contract with anyone, but a handy tool to beat others with!

And who knows someone may decide to pay attention!

I haven't read anything that causes me to think there's much harm in these petitions - Will they cause the government to fall?

If so, where do I sign?