Forget Third Parties — It Ain't Gonna Happen: Hijack The Democrats Instead
Huge numbers of Americans are disgusted with both the Republican and the Democratic parties right now, and are hungrily clamoring for a third alternative.
I know, I know - imagine that! What's not to like about one party that stands for greed, murder and destruction, and another that stands by for greed, murder and destruction?
Nevertheless, somehow things are not going so swimmingly in the world of American partisan politics. The arch-Republican in the White House has job approval ratings in the mid-20s and sinking. The former Republican Congress, equally regressive, was tossed out on their ears, losing control of both houses last year. Not to be outdone, the Democrats who gained control of Congress as the expression of an angry public demanding change have spent the last seven months responding to that mandate by doing ... well, virtually nothing. Now their standing in public opinion is slightly lower than Bush's.
So it comes as no surprise that tens of millions of Americans are fed up with both parties and anxious to find something else that they can not only vote for in good conscience, but can actually win. I, too, have shared that dream, have voted third party, and have even volunteered for one during a presidential election campaign. Remember Barry Commoner? Remember his candidacy for president as the leader of the Citizen's Party in 1980?
Yeah, well, I rest my case. Third party alternatives to hopelessly nihilistic Republicans, hopelessly equivocal Democrats, and the hopelessly self-serving lot of them make total sense except for one small problem. They can't win.
Not literally, of course. Technically, a third party could win. It's just that they don't, and, short of some dramatic changes in the future, that will continue to be the case - that is, they won't.
I don't dispute the circular determinism in a statement like that, which is no doubt the first response in the minds of those advocating an alternative to the two bankrupt political parties now running (and ruining) the country. It's quite correct to argue that continuing to believe that third parties can never win, and that a vote for one of them is therefore 'wasted', is a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's absolutely true that this is the first impediment to the success of a third party in America, and one which by definition must be resolved before any such party can possibly succeed. But what is too often left out of the discussion are the additional and quite enormous obstructions which are waiting right behind this first one to block the rise of a new party to power in America.
To begin with, there is the country's ideological diversity. Compared to other democracies, ours has been historically pretty muted in this regard, though the range of popular ideological positions has increased somewhat in recent years, particularly as the Republican Party migrated from the center-right to the far right over the last few decades. But the comparative diversity of ideology in America relative to other countries is not really the point here.
What is the point is that the degree of diversity we do have is prohibitive to a successful third party arising in the United States. Unless one is contemplating the rise of multiple new parties to viability (and here we've transitioned from hope to fantasy, I'm afraid), the resulting difficulty posed by this ideological diversity is pretty plain to see. Lots of people, for example, are disgusted right now with George Bush and his co-conspirators in the mainstream of the Republican Party. Most loathe him from the left, thinking he is an arrogant fool who is destroying virtually all the political values they hold dear. But others loathe him with equal intensity from the right, largely for the crime of not destroying those values fast enough. Between the Harriet Miers nomination and the immigration bill debacle, no small fraction of the sixty-five percent of America currently reviling the president are cavemen even more regressive than Bush (which may seem unimaginable to progressives, but is quite literally the case). And in-between are those of the angry middle, who are seriously disgruntled, but are reluctant to lean very far in either ideological direction for a solution to their unhappiness.
What's the relevance of all this? Well, try to imagine a third party with a presidential candidate that could be viable. Some of the current crop of disaffected voters would be happy to vote for Ralph Nader to replace Bush, but many others would equate that to living under Mao. Likewise, many of those wishing for a third party, complete with its own presidential candidate, would be delighted if someone like David Duke carried their standard. If it is imaginable for progressives that it could ever get worse than Bush/Cheney, this is certainly it. Then, of course, in the center you have the Ross Perot sort of voter, who is dissatisfied enough with existing choices to entertain alternatives, but not something 'fringe' in an ideological sense.
Put all this together and you have a sufficient critical mass for precisely nothing. Except perhaps maintenance of the status quo. Thus, one huge reason that the rise of an alternative third party in the United States is highly unlikely is the insufficient support for a single specific alternative, even when there is substantial general support among the electorate for some other option beyond the two parties. The idea is great in theory, and even more compelling when a significant cohort of the public says they want a third party to vote for. But unless you see redneck-pickup-truck-with-a-gunrack-driving-god-fearing-Georgia-crackers voting for Angela Davis, and unless you see long-haired-herbal-tea-drinking-Berkeley-lesbian-housing-rights-militants voting for John Bolton, forget about it. Maybe someone like Mike Bloomberg would get a healthy number votes if he ran in 2008, but the former Republican would get few from the left, nor would the Jewish mayor of New York City get many from the right.
So, after the vast bulk of voters have cast their lot once again with either Republicans or Democrats, the remaining dissenters - even if they are large in number - will dissipate their potential impact across a panoply of choices. Some will vote Green Party. Some Libertarian. Some Reform Party. Some the other Reform Party. Some Constitution, Natural Law, Populist, Taxpayers, Socialist or whatever other party is on the ballot. Even if all of the votes for these alternative parties in aggregate amounted to a numerical challenge to the Democrats and Republicans (and they are currently very far from doing so), the individual share of each of these various representations of different ideologies would completely dissipate any substantial impact, and likely any impact at all, like the air going out of a balloon.
Those are two monumental obstacles to the potential success of a third party in this country, but we still haven't even discussed what amounts to the biggest - namely, our electoral system. The term refers to the mechanism by which votes at the ballot box are translated into parliamentary delegates (or members of Congress) in a representative democracy. That might sound painfully straightforward and obvious, but the methods available for doing this are anything but, sometimes producing (far more painfully) obscure and mathematically complicated schemes which voters sometimes don't begin to understand. Don't know whether you prefer the Borda count over Bucklin voting, the Condorcet method, Single Non‑Transferable Voting (affectionately known as SNTV), the Gallagher Index, the Sainte‑Laguë or d'Hondt methods (or perhaps you are all about the cloneproof Schwartz sequential dropping method, instead)? No worries, neither does just about anybody else. This confusion is not a good attribute for an electoral system to possess, but there are many other factors to consider as well, and polities are frequently experimenting trying to find the best system (none are perfect).
The question of electoral system choice may seem mundane in the extreme, but the consequences are enormous. Arguably, one of the factors which brought the Nazis to power was the flawed electoral system of the Weimar Republic, Germany's first (and, obviously, tragically failed) experiment with democracy. But even if a given system doesn't crash that badly, another of the consequences to the choice of electoral systems - and one which is highly relevant to the present discussion - is the number of viable political parties which they tend to produce.
All the multiple variations of electoral systems can be boiled down to essentially two types, plus a third and increasingly popular form, which is simply a hybrid of the first two. One of the two types is known as proportional representation (PR). Among other attributes, it can have a satisfying simplicity to it and, more importantly for our purposes, it tends to encourage the existence of multiple parties that are at least moderately prominent in a given system. That is because the basic principle, as the name implies, is that each party is awarded a number of legislators in parliament that is proportional to the vote it receives in a single polity-wide election. Therefore, even a small party which could only garner, say, six percent of the vote would nevertheless gain representation in the legislature. In fact, it would have six percent of the seats, which would be likely to mean, depending on the size of the body, more than thirty representatives (most lower houses of parliament - the ones with the most power - seem to be about 500-700 members in size). And, since there can be a certain (virtuous or vicious) cyclical quality to the growth or demise of political parties - such that having representation in parliament makes it easier to gain more of the same, and not having it makes it harder - this system is good news for small parties.
But there are also certain prominent downsides to PR, as well. First, progressives should remember that it wouldn't only be lefty parties benefitting from this system in America. Where PR produces Green parties in parliament, it also produces the National Front. Second, so many parties usually means the necessity of coalitions to form governments, and that often means instability - coalitions break apart, and governments fall in-between elections, sometimes frequently. Too much instability and enter the Nazis, stage right. And, on top of all this, even PR systems have a tendency to produce two major parties alternating in government (usually in coalition with one or more smaller ones), anyhow, which somewhat defeats the purpose if our goal is get a third party to govern, not that America is anywhere remotely near converting to PR, anyhow. No one is even talking about it.
The main alternative electoral system to PR doesn't tend to suffer from these maladies, but also doesn't typically produce many small parties in government. This is the district model, and the way it works is to divide the polity into geographical districts and hold simultaneous elections in each. There are many variations possible on how to identify a winner from those separate mini-elections, but in the United States we use a plurality criterion. Do you have one more vote than anyone else in your district (even if you have far less than a majority, as would likely be the case in a district with multiple candidates)? Congratulations. You have a plurality, and you're going to Congress.
It's easy to see why such a system is hard on third parties. Let's say there was a prominent third party in the United States - I'll use my buddies the Greens, since they were kind enough to name their party after me! - and they won perhaps twenty-five percent of the vote nationwide, in a Congressional election cycle. A very respectable showing, no? But, of course, there is no national election, per se - only a bunch of simultaneous district contests (435 for the House representatives, every two years). Nevertheless, for the sake of exposition, let's say that the Greens got 25 percent of the vote in every district. Let's also say that in half the districts the Democrats get 40 percent of the vote to the Republicans' 35 percent, and vice-versa in the other half. In a PR system, the Greens would be awarded 25 percent of the seats in the House for this showing. Under the district model, however, such as is practiced in the United States, their twenty-five percent of the votes translates into precisely zero seats in Congress (arguably disenfranchising one-fourth of the electorate).
(By the way, the presidential election works essentially the same way, and would even were we to eliminate the Electoral College. You can't readily split the presidency like you can a parliament, so only one person can claim the prize, leaving voters for all the other candidates holding the bag, even if these losing voters represent a majority in total - as was the case, for example, in 1992, when Clinton won the presidency with only 43 percent of the popular vote.)
What does all the foregoing discussion ultimately mean? The bottom line here is this: One, we're not likely to change electoral systems in America any time soon. Two, unless we do, it will continue to be enormously difficult for any third party to gain enough traction to achieve viability, let alone to govern. Three, even if we did opt for PR, there are serious downsides to that system as well (a hybrid seems to be the best alternative, in which half of the legislature is chosen using the district model, and the other half using PR - Germany, Italy and other democracies employ this method), not least of which would be the concurrent rise of some nasty gangs of parliamentary thugs on the rabid right who could make Cheney's little GOP horror show seem tame by comparison. And, Four, even though it would likely provide representation in Congress, PR would still probably not bring a third party to power, except possibly as a junior partner in some sort of coalition government. Such a party would chronically occupy the role of a small fry swimming among big sharks, though it might have some improved chance over decades' time to rise to greater prominence.
In short, for reasons involving ideological diversity, electoral mechanics and more, the third party path is not the solution to the present crisis of democracy in America, especially from the perspective of forwarding the progressive agenda.
If you're dubious about the above theoretical analysis, feel free to try on the empirical one instead - it's even more grim. Here are two statistics that more or less say it all. There are 535 members of Congress in America. Guess how many come from a third party. The answer is zero. Not a single one. Doesn't that suggest rather infertile ground for such a plant to take root? But if you're still not convinced, how about this, then: When was the last time the United States experienced the reshuffling of the party structure such that a new party rose to the level of sustained viability? The answer is about 160 years ago, with the birth of the Republican Party. That, in a country which has only had political parties for about 200 years. In other words, this country has had two primary parties vying for power for almost its entire existence, and the last time even the name of one of those changed (but not the number of them, which has essentially never changed) was 4/5's of our history ago. I, for one, would argue that the ground for our multiparty plant has gone from infertile to downright toxic.
But here's where the good news comes in. If the above description sounds like rather an inconceivable degree of stability for a political system spanning that many decades and myriad crises, that's because it is. And it is this observation that brings us closer to the true remedy for our problems. How could such a rigid two-party system - of the same two parties, no less - survive against all the powerful changes, strains and pressures of the last century and a half? And these are considerable. Such a laundry list would have to include, minimally, the Civil War, Reconstruction, industrialization, immigration, expansion, imperialism, civil rights movements for minorities, women and gays, the national rise to global prominence, the Cold War, about seven major hot wars and two impeached presidents, just to get started. Why the incredible stability of the party system, then? The answer is that the American political system doesn't tend to adopt new third parties, and it doesn't implode from the pressures of frustrated change, because what it does instead is to accommodate various political aspirations within the malleable shells of the existing parties.
A look at either one of them amply demonstrates the point. The Republican Party was born as essentially the political vehicle for the anti-slavery movement, when the existing parties failed to provide an outlet for that rising sentiment. Could today's regressive GOP amalgamation of robber-barons, religious troglodyte foot-soldiers and nearly outright racists possibly look any different from the party of Abe Lincoln? Indeed, the GOP of today would have been reactionary even in Lincoln's time. So what happened? How could the party of emancipation become the party of kleptocracy? What happened was that the robber-barons stole it and morphed it, growing increasingly clever over time as to how to employ nationalism, jingoism, imperialism, racism, sexism, external bogeymen, general fear and cultural backwardness in order to line up sufficient votes, augmenting those of the richest two percent of the country, necessary to form a viable party. The examples of this are as endless as they are depressing, running from red scares to race-baiting and back again. More contemporaneously, suffice it to say that not for nothing did Karl Rove arrange to place gay marriage initiatives on the ballot in eleven states for election day 2004. (My personal fantasy is to find every fool who voted for one of those but now hates Bush and shake them vigorously by the shoulders, yelling in their faces, "Are you happy now? Isn't it great that there won't be any gay marriages in our crumbling excuse for a country?")
Ahem. Uh, where was I? (Please stop me before I fantasize again.) Ah, yes - morphing parties. Similar to the GOP experience, it was not so long ago that the main component of the Democratic Party was the Solid South of white voters below the Mason-Dixon line. It was FDR who turned the party into a much broader coalition that came to include the working class, union members, Jews, Catholics, intellectuals, liberals, urban-dwellers, immigrant communities and more, as well as the white South. It was LBJ (fully knowingly, and with lots of help from the likes of Nixon, Reagan, Atwater, Rove, Bush I, Bush II and the rest) who alienated white racists, both North and South, by pursuing various civil rights agendas, principally concerning race.
In short, both parties look a lot different today than they once did, and that happened largely through the efforts of activists seeking to achieve precisely that end. And this, it seems to me, remains the only viable solution for the progressive community today - not a continuing hopeless quest for a prominent third party that has a very low probability of materializing, especially given the institutional and ideological obstacles described above.
What progressives need to do today is what regressives began doing forty years ago. We need to seize the party closest to our politics and take control of it, marginalizing DLC types like Clinton or Lieberman into irrelevance, just like the old Gerry Ford centrist wing of the Republican Party was shoved aside by the radical right. We must become the parasites that infect the host until we eventually take it over completely.
It would be lovely if there was an alternative, but to my mind the above concepts and historical precedent amply demonstrate the improbability of a third party rising to power. Moreover, even if one did eventually arise, in the meantime we continue to risk producing the Nader 2000 effect - such that following our best instincts splits the left-of-regressive vote and succeeds only in empowering the worst alternatives. (For example, imagine a race in 2008 between Clinton and Giuliani, with Gore running as the nominee of the Green Party. Clinton and Gore would collectively receive far more votes than would Giuliani, but Giuliani would be the next president, even without the Electoral College effect.)
And let's not kid ourselves, way too many Americans presently worry if the Democratic Party is too liberal to govern, not whether it can become progressive enough. A large part of that has to do with the complete collapse over the last decades of the progressive message and especially the Party, in the arena of public debate. The American public is going to have to be deprogrammed and reprogrammed after decades of regressive Moonyism (including by the Moonies themselves). That is a separate issue, albeit one which is much better addressed by an ideology that has the benefit of a solid institutional platform from which to operate. But the point is that a third party to the left of the Democrats would not at present be anything like an easy sell. Far easier to win by turning one of the only two alternatives available to voters into a progressive party (especially when the other one has become reprehensible in the extreme).
All of which leaves two questions. First, can the Democratic Party serve that function, or is it hopelessly lost, a permanent captive to its corporate masters? I know of no evidence whatsoever that Paul Wellstone or Bernie Sanders (an independent who caucuses with the Democrats and an avowed socialist, for chrissakes) have been ostracized by party elites or subjected to attempts made either to force a change to their politics or to drum them out of the party. Ditto Barney Frank, Dennis Kucinich, Maxine Waters, John Conyers (or, should I say, the Congressman formerly known as John Conyers), or Henry Waxman. Howard Dean was something of a threat to the status quo party hacks in 2004, it's true, but my guess is that that was mostly because it wasn't yet hip at that time to be anti-war, and they feared that a Dean candidacy would take down the whole party with it (which, no doubt, must be why they brought in a real fighter like John Kerry to go up against Rove and the GOP). Anyhow, nowadays Dean is chairing the damn thing, so their resistance to him can't have been that intense.
All of which suggests to me that the party is ours for the taking if we want it. Given enough Wellstones, we can own this thing and shape it into a force for true progressive change. And if you still require additional evidence that it can be done, just remember that it has been done - twice already (or even three times if we count some of Woodrow Wilson's foreign policy ideas). Both the New Deal in the Thirties and then the Great Society in the Sixties were periods of substantial and meaningful progressive flowering in American government, even if they weren't ultimately everything we might have wanted them to become (and let's not forget that we are dealing here with the most politically backwards populace amongst all the Western democracies). Moreover, and again following on those models, the ascension of a relatively progressive president such as perhaps Al Gore could help expedite this process from the top down.
But then comes the second question, could a progressive Democratic Party win? Again, it seems to me that both history, contemporary conditions and loads of polling data provide a pretty compelling affirmative answer. That it has happened twice suggests that it is certainly possible. That polling data consistently demonstrate the public tending to favor progressive positions on almost every issue put before them, despite decades of unanswered regressive brainwashing, is further argument that this is possible. Finally, Americans are growing increasingly anxious today as their prosperity, their empire, and their sense of security are diminishing right before their very eyes. These conditions are likely to grow more, not less, acute, particularly as Baby Boomers transition from being net contributors to the welfare state system back to being net recipients (never underestimate the depth or the power of Boomer selfishness!).
Such insecurity-inducing scenarios radicalize politics, if that's not too strong a term, pushing the electorate either to the right or the left. One of those alternatives has just recently been tried. Its chief exemplar now has Watergate-level job approval ratings, which will only get considerably worse in the ensuing months. It is true that the public could theoretically be persuaded to turn further still to the right, but you don't much hear those voices out there clamoring for that direction amongst the political class. Even the few remaining droolers like Bill Kristol who advocate for something idiotic like bringing Bushism to Iran now that it has demonstrated its wonderful virtues in Iraq and Afghanistan are increasingly being sneered at like the laughable but still dangerous morons they are. The right-wing experiment in American politics is a complete and utter failure, of course, but more importantly it is increasingly recognized as such. It has totally come a cropper in terms of public opinion. This is 1932 all over again. No more Hoover, no more Bush. The country began its retreat from this horror show in 2006, and would have started even earlier had not John Kerry been such an abysmal presidential candidate. It is now turning decisively to an alternative somewhere to the left of the current GOP, as it more or less must. The only question (further national security 'emergencies' aside, of course), is what will be there for it to turn to, and how far down that path we go from here.
Personally, I don't give a damn about the Democratic Party (which for decades has almost never failed to disappoint anyone possessing any progressive expectations for it), or any other party. In fact, I share many of the concerns about the general pernicious effects of partisanship that the Founders held - though I also recognize that, as a practical matter, it's pretty hard to envision doing national politics in a polity of 300 million people (and politically lazy ones, at that) without the organizing benefits and programmatic shorthand that parties bring to the table. While I don't care about parties, what I do care about are policies. Do we have healthcare, or not? Do we rescue people after a hurricane and flood devastate their city, or not? Do we act like an predatory empire, or not? If the Democrats can deliver the right policies, then fine. If we need the Greens to do the job instead, hey, that's groovy too. If we have to import SWAPO from southern Africa to get it done, then whatever. Heck, I'd even vote Republican (gulp) if they somehow miraculously managed to stumble into some good politics (though that's probably about as likely as Dick Cheney volunteering to become a soldier). I could care less about the label and the organization, as long as it delivers progressive policies for the country.
As a practical matter, though, a third party - let alone a viable leftist third party - is extremely unlikely to develop for all the theoretical and historical reasons outlined above. Our mission, therefore, should be to capture the Democratic Party and lead it toward a series of increasingly progressive (and already publicly popular) legislative accomplishments, starting with ending the war and providing universal national healthcare coverage. It won't be that hard to do, and we can thank the Dark Side in part for creating the best conditions in half a century for this opportunity (just the same, though, I think I'll pass on sending a nice note of gratitude to Mr. Rove). After all, it's not exactly like avoiding unnecessary wars, providing healthcare and quality education for all, pursuing economic justice, or saving our little planetary spaceship from the threat of global warming are such radical ideas that would be hard to sell.
I share the sentiment of many in the progressive community that the Democratic Party is, with a few notable exceptions, a cesspool of ambitious sell-outs, ready to mortgage any policy position or principle in service to their own petty personal gratifications. It would be wonderful, for that reason, if we could just nuke the thing and move on to something else. Wonderful, but not possible.
Fortunately, there is another alternative. I say we hijack it instead.
David Michael Green is a professor of political science at Hofstra University in New York. He is delighted to receive readers' reactions to his articles (mailto:dmg@regressiveantidote.net), but regrets that time constraints do not always allow him to respond. More of his work can be found at his website, www.regressiveantidote.net.
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218 Comments so far
Show Allhttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/
We really need to move into Planetary view of our current predicaments, if we are to grasp the complexity of unfolding events. That is, a perspective which accounts for the radical interdependence of (especially, living) systems. It is no longer a luxury to peer through the lens of General Systems Theory - (such as the "Whole-Systems Theory" articulated by Ken Wilber, Jose Arguelles, Edgar Morin, Lynn Margulis, and Elisabet Sartouris.
Many domains within the scientific community are (in some cases slowly; in others, quickly) coming to the realization that the perspective offered by GST is a necessity if they are to answer today's pressing questions. And, they see that this new dimension involves changes that are paradigmatic in nature. And, so it must be in political science as well. It will be profoundly necessary to attempt to understand the roots, causes, and consequences of the apparent chaos unique to our time in world history.
If we truly wish to have an impact, progressives need to be Ahead of the (Learning) Curve. Much of the U.S. population is already yearning for "something new that will actually work." I believe that deep down, whether consciously or not, a great many of us sense the precarious nature of today's world……that uneasy, queasy feeling of looking over a precipice – and not being at all confident that the ground on which we are standing won't give way.
It certainly seems possible to successfully triangulate issues – to the chagrin of dyed-in-the-wool conservatives of the neo - "con" variety. But this would presuppose that progressives have a deeper, more encompassing vision of current events than they now do.
From a General Systems perspective it is not so difficult to come to tentative conclusions re- what the near future will hold. But like the many scientists who are clinging to the security of their old assumptions and views, the question for progressives is whether we are ready and willing to endure the discomfort of expanding our worldview, for example around the issue of "spirituality." The whole subject begs for deeper inquiry and radical renovation!
But if you leave "God" – (remember it's only the word "Dog" spelled backwards, so don't get hung up on it!) to our brethren who are Revulsickens, progressive progress will (probably sooner rather than later) go down the tubes.
I believe that we, each of us, really need to play catch up - and fast. Old perspectives do die hard when it comes to the day to day life we are actually living. But looking historically, it's not THAT hard to do:….our ancestors have done it many, many times. Didn't they (most of them) eventually come to accept that the world is round, and gradually give up older notions, no matter how sacred?
Can't we give a little? Move beyond and let go of, say, one "in the box," unexamined, thought-habit each day. I'm guessing that there be 'lot of out-of-the- box happenings heading our way.
Politically speaking, it makes sense to be at least a little prepared for the unprecedented.
We Can teach an old dogs new tricks, right?
And, anyways, we're not THAT old - (yet)!
Something to seriously consider:
Just about every comment that has been written here (all 222 of them!) will essentially be irrelevant, null and void, if one specific event occurs.
I would like to urge anyone interested to read the entire column by Harvey Wasserman and Bob Fitrakis. published today right here on CommonDreams and titled:
"Will Bush Cancel The 2008 Election?"
To give us a sense of what he has to say, I've taken the liberty to paste a few bits below.
"It is time to think about the 'unthinkable.'
"The Bush Administration has both the inclination and the power to cancel the 2008 election.The GOP strategy for another electoral theft in 2008 has taken clear shape, though we must assume there is much more we don't know.
"But we must also assume that if it appears to Team Bush/Cheney/Rove that the GOP will lose the 2008 election anyway (as it lost in Ohio 2006) we cannot ignore the possibility that they would simply cancel the election. Those who think this crew will quietly walk away from power are simply not paying attention.
"The real question is not how or when they might do it. It's how, realistically, we can stop them.In Florida 2000, Team Bush had a game plan involving a handful of tactics.
"With Jeb Bush in the governor's mansion, the GOP used a combination of disenfranchisement, intimidation, faulty ballots, electronic voting fraud, a rigged vote count and an aborted recount, courtesy of the US Supreme Court.
"A compliant Democrat (Al Gore) allowed the coup to be completed.
"In Ohio 2004, the arsenal of dirty tricks exploded. Based in Columbus, we have documented more than a hundred different tactics used to steal the 20 electoral votes that gave Bush a second term. More are still surfacing. As a result of the King-Lincoln-Bronzeville federal lawsuit (in which we are plaintiff and attorney) we have now been informed that 56 of the 88 counties in Ohio violated federal law by destroying election records, thus preventing a definitive historical recount.
"As in 2000, a compliant Democrat (John Kerry) allowed the coup to proceed.
"For 2008 we expect the list of vote theft maneuvers to escalate yet again. We are already witnessing a coordinated nationwide drive to destroy voter registration organizations and to disenfranchise millions of minority, poor and young voters.This carefully choreographed campaign is complemented by the widespread use of electronic voting machines.
"As reported by the Government Accountability Office, Princeton University, the Brennan Center, the Carter-Baker Commission, US Rep. John Conyers (D-MI) and others, these machines can be easily used to flip an election. They were integral to stealing both the 2000 and 2004 elections.
"Efforts to make their source codes transparent, or to require a usable paper trail on a federal level, have thus far failed. A discriminatory Voter ID requirement may also serve as the gateway to a national identification card. Overall, the GOP will have at its command even more weapons of election theft in 2008 than it did in Ohio 2004, which jumped exponentially from Florida 2000. The Rovian GOP is nothing if not tightly organized to do this with ruthless efficiency.
"Expect everything that was used these past two presidential elections to surface again in 2008 in far more states, with far more efficiency, and many new dirty tricks added in.
"But in Ohio 2006, the GOP learned a hard lesson. Its candidate for governor was J. Kenneth Blackwell. The Secretary of State was the essential on-the-ground operative in the theft of Ohio 2004.When he announced for governor, many Ohioans joked that 'Ken Blackwell will never lose an election where he counts the votes.'But lose he did….along with the GOP candidates for Secretary of State, Attorney-General and US Senate.By our calculations, despite massive grassroots scrutiny, the Republicans stole in excess of 6% of the Ohio vote in 2006. But they still lost.Why?
"Because they were so massively unpopular that even a 6% bump couldn't save them. Outgoing Governor Bob Taft, who pled guilty to four misdemeanors while in office, left town with a 7% approval rating (that's not a typo). Blackwell entered the last week of the campaign down 30% in some polls.So while the GOP still had control of the electoral machinery here in 2006, the public tide against them was simply too great to hold back, even through the advanced art and science of modern Rovian election theft.
"In traditional electoral terms, that may also be the case in 2008. Should things proceed as they are now, it's hard to imagine any Republican candidate going into the election within striking distance. The potential variations are many, but the graffiti on the wall is clear.
"What's also clear is that this administration has a deep, profound and uncompromised contempt for democracy, for the rule of law, and for the US Constitution. When George W. Bush went on the record (twice) as saying he has nothing against dictatorship, as long as he can be dictator, it was a clear and present policy statement.
"Who really believes this crew will walk quietly away from power?
"They have the motivation, the money and the method for doing away with the electoral process altogether. So why wouldn't they? The groundwork for dismissal of both the legislative and judicial branch has been carefully laid. The litany is well-known, but worth a very partial listing:
"...The current Attorney-General, Alberto Gonzales, has not backed away from his announcement to Congress that the Constitution does not guarantee habeas corpus. The administration continues to act on the assumption that it can arrest anyone at any time and hold them without notification or trial for as long as it wants. The establishment of the Homeland Security Agency has given it additional hardware to decimate the basic human rights of our citizenry.
"Under the guise of dealing with the "immigration problem," large concentration camps are under construction around the US....
"All this will be relevant should Team Bush envision a defeat in the 2008 election and decide to call it off. It's well established that Richard Nixon—mentor to Karl Rove and Dick Cheney—commissioned the Huston Plan, which detailed how to cancel the 1972 election.
"Today we must ask: who would stop this administration from taking dictatorial power in the instance of a "national emergency" such as a terror attack at a nuclear power plant or something similar?"
Do these words send chills up your spine or give you a feeling of nausea? They should. These are things I'd rather not think about.
But to quote the late great psychoanalyist Elvin Semrad: "It is a necessary condition of human health...to be able to think what has to be thought."
baska: I must say that it is truly refreshing to see a commenter openly admit that they have changed their views somewhat as a result of reading another's views. That is what this whole experiment is about. I myself feel as though I am constantly altering my vision of this country and the world at large, often as a result of reading comment sections on sites like CD.
Thanks for having an open mind. This is truly one of the best, most thought-provoking threads I have ever seen.
"If there is an organization around which we can rally that is already in place, please post it."
Well the most accessible ones with the most depth of penetration, national with state and local chapters, are called "Democrats" and "Republicans". They are pretty much everywhere. They both lack sufficient participation from progressive-minded people at the local level. Well, not everywhere, there are pockets of progressivity here and there but for the most part it's a rubber stamp operation.
I would like all the smart and thoughtful people who have contributed their accumulated wisdom to this article's commentaries, to get together and form an organization, to which the rest of us would join.
I hope you know who you are (smart and thoughtful people).
There is much more agreement than disagreement amongst you. And central to everyone's ideas is the idea of electoral reform through constitutional reform. You may disagree on how to get there.
If there is an organization around which we can rally that is already in place, please post it.
It's a HUGE mistake, to the point of surrendering our ability to self-govern, to view "the" Democratic Party as one entity, one organization.
There is a local party waiting for you and if you're not doing anything to shift or set the terms of the debate within that local party, what makes you think you'll do so for a yet-to-be-invented party?
It's still going to take eleventy-billion dollars to win national office.
Better get your "we need a fourth party" mantra ready just in case you get your wish.....
RE: DEMOCRATS, THIRD PARTY, OR BOTH - KEY QUESTION ON COMMONDREAMS
207 posts and counting - as I said at the start of this thread, this is a key question for readers of this site.
Short of a space for the question set aside by the editors - which I think would be good - I hope the thread continues as a point of reference for working out this crucial question as events continue to unfold.
RE: OFF-TOPIC...NOT OFF-TOPIC: COMPASSION FOR SUFFERERS
aymon July 30th, 2007 7:39 am
"thamks to everyone (except Alkalye)"
Look, I was annoyed at first by that post too - but it took only a sec to realize the guy/gal was distraught to the point of derangement, extremely isolated, and in pain. I didn't respond...but, jeez, if ever there was someone off their meds, it was him/her...Hope they didn't hurt themself...
RE: ARGUMENT BY ANALOGY...
susan parker July 29th, 2007 2:12 pm
Coopting an existing organization like a parasite...can result in the death of the 'host.'....
"this sounds to me rather like signing up to work 'crew' on an oceanliner in the hope of affecting the ship's course.
It's 'like' this, it's 'like' that - argument by analogy, unless supported by greater fact/argument, does not go beyond polemic and pre-existing point of view. For example, I am tempted to respond: 'No, it is not like signing up as crew on an oceanliner, it is like the crew of Potempkin taking over the battleship.'
The truth probably lies somewhere between the despairing first and the hopeful second...but neither qualifies as an argument.
Waste of time. I'll admit I didn't even read this column, aside from the first few sentences. Why bother?
I used to be a Republican. Last fall I voted Democrat because of Bush. I want my vote back.
"Lesser of two evils" is horsesh*t.
thamks to everyone (except Alkalye) who wrote on this thread and to DMG, writer of wonderful progressive articles at CD, who bithed this thread.
My personal thanks to Ken and Earthian for your positive feedback on my post.
Thanks to abbywod and CRCox for a spirited defence of all of us who honour the fundamental human right to articulate thoughtful positions for discussion and comment by others who are also thougghtful and articulate.
PowerofLove, Siouxrose and I used to post some "out of the box" stuff earlier, but it seemed to many that we were not only "out of the box" but "out of our mind". so it is risky here to be too much "out of the box". well, our intuition is vividly captured by Shakespeare:
"There are more things between Heaven and Earth, horatio, then what your philosiophy speaks of"
Nevertheless, your take on Chaos theory laying surprises on "in the box" expectations is sound and that is exactly what is happening to Bushco in Iraq.
A suggestion (warning -- this may require some work!): If someone could go through all the posts here and cull out actual, implementable strategy from the posts as to how to get to our goal of a progressive force capable of effecting change, whether it be by "highjacking", "third party" or a combination of methods and modalities, that would be very useful to progressive candidates such as Cindy, Medea, Rev, Yearwood,Kucinich, Gravel, Nader (whether he runs, advises, or simply articulates it to the Dem masses), Barbara Boxer and others, the in a sense we would have planted the seeds.
The blue in my name is not anything special at the moment, and I don't know how to get rid of it. Kem Patrick figures it is digital IED that I've devised. Any ideas?
Peace
Aymon
I believe it behooves us to carefully study the (exponentially increasing) material that speaks to the issue of "paradigm change." While the phrase has at times been used in a faddish way, when utilized in a serious fashion the term can serve as a conceptual lens, through which we can gain a fresh focus on the unfolding of present day events - and see them with new eyes.
My sense is that we radically underestimate the intensity and discontinuity of the period of change through which we are now passing. If you will, I worry that we progressives, as a whole, have not gotten our minds far enough "out of the box" of business-as-usual thinking.
I'm guessing that there are many "outrageous and unbelievable" things that will be disclosed in the coming years. From this point of view our past cannot possibly predict our future.
Politically, this means, first and foremost, using multiple frames to expand our notions of what this period of time is all about….and, of what is possible. (Fit new paradigm thinking here).
When it began to dawn in the western world that in fact the Earth circled the Sun and not the other way around (the common sense assumption for centuries) -----
----- Or that science, rather than blind faith in church doctrine just made a hell of alot more sense ----- whole foundational categories of thought needed to be relinquished.
While I would agree that organizationally we must be prepared for the 2008 election (and have little time to lose), it is also of critical importance that we begin to renovate our thinking. A few people here have mentioned "either/or" vs. "both/and" thought processes. This shift is key.
The whole thing is going to require a huge "Get over yourself" (and your comfy old thought-forms) attitude on each of our parts.
For example: the dusty old either/or of 'secular vs. religious.' Dichotomizing these, using the same old conceptual frames, simply is not going to cut it. The central issue here is that a massive spiritual awakening is already underway among humanity. However, the multiple meanings of such a proposition will also require much "unpacking."
For a peek, see the work of Jean Gebser, Edgar Morin, Joanna Macy or Duane Elgin.
Or, for an even wilder roller coaster ride, check out www.disclosureproject.org.
And have fun!
DMG,
Look what you've gone and done. Opened up a Pandora's box, you have. Well Done!!
Naturally, what I write next will be null and void if humanity takes the "Armageddon Bypass." That is, if humanity avails itself of the glorious opportunity immediately before us ---- to indulge in a blaze of self-destruction. "We have the technology." Either that, and/or botching the coming environmental crises so badly that we're thrown back into a feudal (futile?), or even more primitive existence, eking out our daily bread.
I truly honor the folks who are ready, willing, and able to take a "brass tacks" approach to the questions posed by David's column. We all have gifts, and goddess knows, this kind of careful, reality-based thinking, strategizing, planning, and organizing at the electoral and party level is sorely needed. (Recent democrats being famous for never encountering a chance at being elected that they couldn't screw up).
I come at this from a somewhat different angle. To this end I would like to offer a few thoughts from the realm of group development and chaos theory.
It is now pretty much accepted that many human groups are characterized by periods of relative calm punctuated by intervals of chaotic activity. As Bud McClure has said: " This periodicity is essential for growth and reorganization, for without undergoing periodic upheaval, groups can not evolve."
We're talking here about non-incremental, discontinuous change, also known as "second-order change." Disorder always precedes metamorphosis, and its outcomes can not, with any kind of certainly, be predicted from previous conditions.
In my opinion anyone attempting to play an effective leadership role would need to understand, to some degree, how chaos theory can be applied to the maturation and healthy development of groups, particularly because attempts to exert one-way control or to limit second-order change usually lead to regressive and potentially dangerous solutions.
Halle is exactly right: how are we to evaluate Prof. Green's proposal if he won't tell us HOW he proposes to hijack the Democratic party? It's not as simple as it sounds. We would have the DNC, DLC and other metaparty organizations to deal with. On the other hand, it's too late to try to get a third party candidate into the debates, and probably will soon be too late to get a candidate on the ballot in the early states. It may already be too late. But this much I know for sure: I no longer trust EITHER the Democratic or Republican parties, and I certainly don't trust the Bush regime. What now? A Boston tea party?
TRACTOR GUY: Elegant argument (and points), also kudos to A QUIET MAN. Good postings!
There's so much here that when I go back to read it, I find I missed stuff.
Aymon has a great idea in his posting of July 30, 7:39 am. If someone has the time, please review his suggestion and follow through. (Alas, I own a struggling business and cannot do this myself.)
Thanks for all the wonderful contributions. I agree with baska on the importance of this topic to we CD readers who wish to change the disastrous course of our country.
lporter July 30th, 2007 6:24 pm
"You are simply no use to us anymore, and we will not support you. We cannot trust you. You are more concerned about your party than you are about impact, and you can't stand the heat from the Democrats."
As I mentioned previously, Rich Whitney's campaign for Governor of Illinois got us more than 10% of the vote in 2006, and we can get our candidates on the ballot until 2010 because of that. The Greens had to collect 25,000 valid signatures in 90 days to get Whitney and our other statewide candidates on the ballot, and to get 5% of the vote to keep the ballot line.
We collected 39,000 signatures. The Democrats made frivolous challenges to our petitions, and spent $800,000 of taxpayer money in the process. In the end, we had more than 27,000 valid signatures!
The Democratic Governor backed out of debates so that he wouldn't have to face Whitney. In the closing days of the campaign, the REPUBLICAN was telling people not to vote for Whitney because he was a spoiler. That campaign made me proud to be a Green.
BTW, guess who got nearly 10% of the vote in the Maine Governor's race last year? Pat LaMarche, who was David Cobb's running mate in 2004. She kept our ballot line in Maine, and could have been in Perot territory if Independent candidate Barbara Merrill wasn't running.
The Greens are the only national party in the country with a progressive platform. As much as I like Nader, he is only one person, and he can't build an enduring electoral opposition to the Democrats and Republicans without a party.
lporter July 29th, 2007 6:00 pm
"In 2004 I watched the Greens refuse to support Nader, because they couldn't stand the disapproval of their liberal Democrat friends, and make themselves forever irrelevant."
Many Greens decided to not support Nader because he was not seeking our nomination like he did in 2000, but only wanted our endorsement. This was important to us.
Last year, the Greens ran the strongest statewide campaigns that we ever have. Rich Whitney got 10% of the vote in the Illinois Governor's race; our Presidential candidate will be on the ballot in 2008 because of his efforts. We are starting off with 20 ballot lines, and will get on the ballot in most states next year.
"What I would prefer to do is abandon party politics and run candidates as independents in the general election."
I agree with you about Perot's influence on the major parties, especially in making the balanced budget a top priority. Running as an independent has its advantages in some cases, but an independent Presidential bid is very difficult for non-billionaires. It's considerably harder to get on the ballot as an independent than as a party in California, Texas, and Florida- three of the biggest four states in the country.
Whatever it's faults, the one thing Democrats have going for them is they have refused to be contaminated with the blight of man-made organized religion.
If this is true, the Democrats certainly aren't proud of or advertising it. In fact, personally I don't think this is that true of the Democrats: it's more that more of the people that vote for them are secular (overwhelmingly so) because:
1) We have nowhere else to go-unless, of course, we have a third party to represent us.
2) The religious voters that the Democrats would like to get to support them through 'centrist' mania are already more often than not convinced that the Democrats are basically Satan's cousins-not that this really changes the Democrats' willingness as a party to try and go after them.
As an example, I live in California and am allegedly represented by Dianne Feinstein. When Newdow first brought suit here (not that far away from where I live, actually...) her response in the Senate wasn't to support him, although risky. It wasn't even a carefully neutral statement that as a citizen of the US, he was exercising his Constitutional rights just like anyone else. This would have been hardly heroic, but at least understandable..
No, instead, she stood up there and said that she was ashamed that Michael Newdow came from her state. That not only did she disagree with him, but that the concept of an atheist standing up for themselves was a horrid, embarassing thing. The Democrats are no friends to the secular as much as they are forced to deal with it-and if they didn't think that they had to pay lip service along those lines, they wouldn't even grant this much.
I do agree with you that religion doesn't belong in politics-but I do think that the Democrats are ethically bankrupt after years of watching them treat those values that are secular as something to be cheaply traded away in favor of attempting to win one more election, or out of fear of what the Republicans will say about them.
Lisa wrote:
"You may be able to cut loose the facism from the Democratic Party, but you'll never get rid of the selfish, spriritually bereft portion of the party, because it is not the fringe but is actually the core."
Depending on who's viewpoint? Whenever someone tries to tie 'spirituality' with a political party, I cringe and shudder. Look what mixing religious beliefs with politics has done in places like the middle east, let alone the Republican party who dangerously has embraced as it's core those who would force us into a theocracy. An evangelical Christian theocracy.
Secularism is the only way for everyone of all faiths to live peacefully together with mutal respect, and all treated equally under the law. It is not Democrats who are kissing the asses of the likes of Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, et al. That Democrats support a more secular society with a strict separation of church and state is a major plus. This way good little liberal Christians and good little evangelicals can live together without one group burning the other at the stake - which is pretty much what always happens when people start wanting to bring their ideas of spirituality to a political party.
To claim that all those who support abortion are spiritually bereft is an opinion. Not a very enlightened one, but only an opinion. You're welcome to it of course. I suppose gay folks wanting to be treated equally are also selfish and spiritually bereft? Not to mention feminists who refuse to succumb to Christian patriarchy.
Whatever it's faults, the one thing Democrats have going for them is they have refused to be contaminated with the blight of man-made organized religion. That doesn't mean they don't have personal religious beliefs, but it does mean they are sensible enough to learn from history the dangers of mixing those beliefs with religion... it means they uderstand Secularism is a god-inspired gift to save mankind from his human (and utterly fallible) followers...
JMO..
I've tried three leftist third parties in my life -- Peace and Freedom, Citizens and Greens -- saw them all fail, and am burned out on the concept. In 2004 I watched the Greens refuse to support Nader, because they couldn't stand the disapproval of their liberal Democrat friends, and make themselves forever irrelevant. Third parties seem to be taken over by little groups of people who only talk to each other and have no sense of reality, of how to have an impact on American politics. Impact is what it's all about, not "building the party," which the Greens, in any case, failed to do.
No, a third party probably will never win an election, except possibly in very local races, nor do they seem to have much impact on what happens after the election. Neither does working within the Democratic party, which is a con game. What I would prefer to do is abandon party politics and run candidates as independents in the general election.
Which is essentially what Ross Perot did in 1992, winding up with 19 percent of the popular vote. He probably would have done better if he hadn't dropped out of the race, then dropped back in, making himself look erratic. (Wikepedia) The main issue he ran on was the skyrocketing national debt. The vote he got forced both major parties to take that issue seriously for some years, and the Clinton administration to do something about it. We could use this as a model.
Lynn Porter
BeingFrankWithBarney wrote:
What professor Green appears to be advocating is a more direct route to doing exactly the same things that many third parties want to achieve. While third party activism is a viable political strategy, it is demonstrably not a viable electoral strategy. It seems to me that far too many people conflate the two, serving only to decrease their ability to make much-needed changes
The problem is that this direct route isn't really direct at all. What it actually entails is trying to 'take back' an organization with limited obligations to follow its own internal rules and furthermore, is going to be hostile at a lot of different levels to the effort. Even if this initial effort is successful (and so far, it really hasn't been), its own internal rules would then need to be changed in order to eliminate corporatist influence. Finally, after this is done, this organization would then be expected to honestly take on the problems with disenfranchisement, the antiquated Constitution Red Harvest mentioned earlier, and then attack these problems in an honest and forthright manner as opposed to sabotaging efforts at every step so as to claim that the status quo is utterly immutable.
I think this adds several extra steps and a lot of extra effort to an already difficult process. Instead of trying to change the minds of people whose entire livelihoods (and in some cases, egos) are completely dependent on doing absolutely nothing or abetting the Republican/fascists, they should be bypassed instead.
I think the author and posters who take the position that third party candidates will never directly win elections in significant numbers are probably right. But I also think the entrenched Democratic leadership would respond to an influx of progressive activists by first trying to exploit, twist and usurp this source of energy for their own ends, and where that fails they would work to distract, dispirit, or pacify them, and after that comes ignoring them and taking them for granted, and then marginalizing, ridiculing, and sabotaging those who would like to take the party in a different direction. Fortunately, party influence is not solely a function of winning majorities. It isn't even solely about running candidates. A third party could serve as a base for like-minded progressives to get together, stake out their positions, and develop strategy--without having to withstand continuous withering assaults from an entrenched oppositional leadership which has stacked the procedural deck in its favor. With unions on the ropes and liberal churches scattered and disinclined to meddle in politics, some place is needed for organizing opposition on the left to counter the inherent power advantage of those disciplined, undemocratic, hierarchical bodies (corporations, military, regressivist churches) which have been able to push US politics so far right. Such an organization could sponsor information and awareness campaigns to influence public opinion and advance specific reforms (IRV and clean elections, for example) and could be a focal point of support for the many progressives who don't have the time, energy, resources, or demographic basics needed to scramble for positions within the Democratic party, so they can then go on to fight the leadership from within. A lot more people can simply write a check to a like-minded party, and would probably be more inclined do so if they felt they were supporting one which would actually represent, serve and advance their values, rather than one which will take their money and use it against them. And I don't see any contradiction between building up a third party, and strategically supporting targeted policies or candidates within the Dem. party. I do, however, see advantages to staking out a politically distinct piece of real estate, to make it clear to Democrats that this is a block of voters which can either be helpful allies or damaging enemies, but which cannot be ignored and taken for granted. So why operate as a party and not some advocacy or watchdog group? Because the ability to field candidates which can punish Democrats is the stick needed to be taken seriously. Even if those candidates never win, they can still change the outcomes.
And I while I do think hijacking, or taking back, the Democratic party at some point would be a great thing to do, such a move would undoubtedly require considerable outside organizing and planning 1) to coordinate the power of progressives into a united block so that their efforts aren't individually dissipated and 2) to have a functioning leadership body ready to take the helm, and I see no reason a third party could not serve as an excellent base for such an effort. (And in a best-case scenario, perhaps an alienated DLC would then take their marbles across the aisle, and coordinate with Lieberman-style Republicans to try to run the show over there--which might at least give the Republican centrists a fighting chance against the fascist/zealots of the far right.)
I just did a Google search on "fuck the government" and got 32,500 hits. I'm sure that proves something or other.
Coopting an existing organization like a parasite, which I think is what is being advised here, often has unintended consequences and can result in the death of the "host." ... and that's if the effort is successful.
Otherwise, this sounds to me rather like signing up to work "crew" on an oceanliner in the hope of affecting the ship's course.
At worst, this sounds rather like some sort of "Clean For Gene" do-over.
Most organizations -- large and small -- in my experience -- are cliquish and resist the newbies who attempt to change their course, regardless how brilliant, innovative, yada yada their ideas.
I have voted "third party" many times -- never to "spoil", always to "send a message" -- and, yes, I have held my nose several times to vote for the annointed democratic candidate as the "lesser of two evils" though as I get older I find myself less and less willing to do so. I no longer recognize "my" party, and I hardly recognized "my" country..
After seeing the Democratic Party's lame defense of Florida voting rights in 2000 and it's don't-ask-don't-tell reaction to Ohio in 2004, joining up as "crew" to attempt to redirect this behemoth seems ... what? absurd?
The whole world is praying to the Democratic party to deliver us from evil in 2008 ... from what I've seen, I'm not terribly hopeful.
I've been advocating a rejection the either/or thinking that results in conclusions advocating one side of such false dichotomies such as choosing between third-party strategies and a hijacking of the Democratic Party strategy. The article by DMG is based on that kind of either/or thinking as the title presupposes. Forget one, do the other. But in the comments I'm seeing more and more inclusive both/and thinking, where Baska--July 28th, 2007 3:40 pm-- mentions a "multi-front struggle" strategy. Red Harvest suggested that above with many interesting proposed innovations. And a more-recent, perfect example of the kind of inclusive synthesis of strategies and tactics is in the post by Aymon--July 28, 2007 7:06 p.m. Aymon's post includes what Kucinich and other Democrats need to do (and what we need to urge them to do) AND it includes what the national progressive party needs to do--the Green Party--to achieve progressive goals. Bravo to Aymon. I urge all of us to read that post very carefully. And also Red Harvests of--7-27-07 11:16 p.m. Complaining is easy. Finding solutions is hard. But there are many very good ideas that suggest positive strategies here.
Alkalye: With all due respect, you are the biggest "loudmouth asshole" I have seen in this whole thread. You are angry that we are angry, which is ridiculous. Why don't you actually offer your solution? I have yet to hear anyone on this comment section say they are "better than anyone else".
Furthermore, you are right about Green not advocating on behalf of the party as it is, and there are plenty of comments that point that out. However, many of those people who do think Green's article made a lot of sense - like myself - have simply come to the conclusion that we fucked in this country beyond the point at which slow, incremental change is viable. Dig? Many of us simply think the god damn thing has to be completely revolutionized in order to once again - if ever it did in the past - actually represent the intentions of the voting public.
By calling us "dimwits", you do nothing but set yourself aside as a loser, who is hell bent on changing the system from within the system. That's fine, when the system is still in a mode of operation in which it actually responds to the stimuli put forward by the populace. Alas, our system of voting and electioneering no longer does. Therefore, it would actually be more apt to call you the "dimwit". Instead though, on behalf of the rest of the "dimwits", I would like to invite you to consider that perhaps the fastest way to change the system we have - indeed revolutionize it - is to break it down to the ground and rebuild it brother.
I agree that it would be very helpful and interesting if Prof. Green would write an article about "how" to hijack the Democratic Party.
I mean a literal step 1, 2, 3 article.
And thank you to those who responded to my posts. The feedback is really appreciated.
As to ALKALYE....It seems odd to me that you would accuse all of us who have read Prof. Green's article and made comments as only thinking of ourselves!! It's BECAUSE we are thinking about the survival of the entire PLANET that we are spending hours and hours trying to communicate and figure out a way forward.
If I were only thinking of myself I would have gone to a movie tonight, had dinner out and a good martini then come home to read a good novel or some other brain candy to amuse myself and have "fun". Be nice.
POWER OF LOVE: Right on! So many argue the either/or divide. Either we have a just society and work on tangible external levels, or we focus on finding peace within. BOTH are necessary! Conscious individuals build a conscious, caring society. It's very difficult for those of us doing this interior work to function in a society that runs against our grain due to its low level "primitivo" ego-based functioning. I'll finish this point with an odd analogy. When Lauren Bacall was a young Vogue model taking her first Hollywood screentest, she was asked to kiss a leading male actor. (He must have hesitated on delivering his "role".) In front of everyone, the confident young woman said to the male actor, "It's a lot better if you help." That's pretty much my view of the interaction between a sane society and healthy individuals. Right now, both are struggling, one in near shambles.
Alkalye:
Alcohol much?
Nursery school bottom line: we need to take responsibility and Own the inner conequences of living in society dominated by authoritarian institutions and thought-forms. Our parents and theirs, school teachers, clergy etc etc: hobbled and lost within veil after veil of illusion.
Without inner work and a commitment to clear out our inner Garb-Age, we just continue and pass on our own twistedness. To do otherwise is to lay down and submit to forms of "inner blindness" and self-deception that simply keep the whole sordid game going.
So many of us are awash...
(and some drowning, others at best treading water,gasping for air)
...in emotions of rage, hatred, bitterness, disappointment, despair, horror, and fear.
There is a way to deal with these forms of suffering responsibly --- which means, first and foremost ---- not spewing and slathering spoiled-rotten peanut butter all over other people. And not vomiting all over them, either.
To paraphrase an old saw, "You want a peaceful world? Find peace within yourself, And create it within every single interaction with every other living being you encounter."
Hateful words/deeds just add more power to the hatred and ignorance already swirling around our little planet.
What's it going to be?
I-It
or I-Thou?
It's not just you, Alkalye.
We all must choose.
Beyond our need to grow up and to grow spiritually: in truthfullness, wisdom, and clarity of mind...
...there is one word which is a bottom-line foundation for solving our world problems.
That word is compassion.
Thank you David Michael Green... you stated far more eloquently what I've been arguing on this site for weeks... A third party is not going to happen based on how our political system is set up, let alone our history of two parties... A 3rd party candidate will never win the presidency, and if he/she ever did, would face a hostile Congress of the two traditional parties who would both have an interest in bringing him/her down..
The author is right. We have to fight this one out within the party - and I mean a dirty fistfight.. and win.. It's the only way we can see progressive principles instituted. The only result of voting for a 3rd party candidate on the left is to help vote in Bush-like Republicans. That is what voting for Nader in 2000 did...
And while I have agreed heartily that the Democratic party needs some testicular fortitude, it is NOT the same thing as the Republican party. Those who take this position are letting their anger cloud their judgement.
Let's hijack the Democratic party and bring it back to a left leaning platform..
YOU DIMWITS OBVIOUSLY MISINTERPRET (OR DIDN'T READ)THE ARTICLE.
HE AINT ADVOCATING SUPPORTING THE PARTY AS IT CURRENTLY
IS.
ANYONE----HITLER REINCARNATED, CAN JOIN/RUN IN THE DEMO PARTY...
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU NEED ALL THESE DESIGNER LABELS FOR?
AINT LIKE YOUR DOIN ANYTHING ELSE BUT RANTING YOUR MOUTHS OFF HERE ANYWAY....
AND YOU YAPPERS THAT COMMENT HERE ARE SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
HARDLY REPRESENTATIVE OF THE MAJORITY OF THE PROGRESSIVES AND OR PEOPLE IN GENERAL THAT READ COMMONDREAMS.ORG....
MOST OF YOU ARE LOUD MOUTHED ASSHOLES THAT CAN'T FIND LIVE PEOPLE TO LISTEN TO YOUR BULLSHIT------
INFACT, MOST OF YOU POSTERS DON'T EVEN REALLY GIVE A SHIT ABOUT HUMANITY THE EARTH ETC....
THIS IS ALL JUST A FUCKING IDENTITY FOR YOU... ITS ALL AND ONLY ABOUT YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU
YOU
NARCISSSSSISSSSTICS JERKBAGS.
YOU AINT BETTER THEN ANYBODY ELSE.
abbywood wrote:
"Obviously you[aymon] are angry and I understand your anger. Just want you to know that I have many pictures I've clipped from The New York Times of children we've had a hand at maiming and killing in foreign lands. I've cried my share of tears over these photos. I can guarantee you that even though most of us have been focusing on the "How do we extricate ourselves out of this mess" rather than "looking at the mess we've made", we all are extremely upset with those who are currently in power in this country.
"And there is nothing on Earth any of us will ever be able to do to change any of them!"
Thank you very much, abbywood. I agree with your first para. but not with the second, not because I am naive, which I will demonstrate momentarily that I am not, but I see this frustration of helplessness envelopping many progressives and it is going to drain energy out of you.
I call this the "Wolfowitz" syndrome, and that affects a lot of Western progressives unlike Gandhi, beacuse the later was anchored in a very powerful belief that I as an easterner knows, having felt that myself:
It is:
SATYA VIJAY - - - TRUTH WILL BE VICTORIOUS
The "Wolfowitz" tipping point is that point when a committed trotskyist becomes a commited Neo-Nazi fascist.
Prior to being an extreme fascist, Wolfowitz in his younger days was a Trotskyist and extreme leftist. The western mind is Pavlov trained to seek instant gratifification, instant truth, instant change - - everything here and now. Naot getting that, it then goes into a long period of wishful thinking, and finally having not worked out any strategy that has reason and logic behind it, becomes angry at the organization of the world being immune to change. Finally, some such as Wolfowitz as well as many neo-cons, beieve that the world is scientifically ruthless and one must become a Stalinist rather than a Trotsykist to get anywhere in "real politik"
That said, I will put forward my analysis as to whether or not one can logically hope,given the facts on the ground,
for a truly progressive third party to arrive soon and which can change or even temporarily halt the slide into total and complete fascism.
Let me say at the outset, ANYTHING is always POSSIBLE, but few things are both possible and PROBABLE. Consequently, I am not saying that eventually, in the long run, a genuine third, or even fourth or fifth party will not be possible if America survives the blowback, internal economic and external climatic, that it is heading for on its current Bushco train. That blowback is going to occur for fully SCIENTIFIC reasons that I will not digress into (I have spelled them out in earlier posts) here in the next 10 years. I am asking,
Is that probable in the next 6 months?
The sad but logical truth based on reasoning and not wisful thinking is - - NO.
You do not have the luxury of working over generations to effect the positive changes through a not-yet-ready "third party". That is a fact on the ground. Also as John Maynard Keynes, the British Liberal economist who got the Western World out of the Great Depression of 1929-33 by providing a solid economic rationale for massive public works to get people working and earning their daily bread, said:
"In the long run we will be all dead."
That was in response to the influential (among the rich classes) British Imperlialist economists such as "Lord" Lionel Robbins who advocated leaving the "market" alone to work through the singularity by itself over a long run equlibrium.
Keynes was a Cambridge trained mathematicain and logician (Russel and Wittgenstein's student/colleague), and also fantastic economist. He logically wrestled the capitalist dogma that the "market" is God, down into dust so that it did not rear up its ugly head again until Ronald Reagan.
The purpose of this little digression is that there are many eloquently written posts above in response to Professor Green's article. Most have far better prose than mine. Many advocate rejection of Professor Green's thesis out- of- hand as being axiomatically soiled. But good prose does not a logical argument make.
A lot of what has been poured forth is the "long run", eventually, type of wishful thinking, completely oblivious of the reality on the ground. But that is not reasoning; that is ideological purity of the Trotskyite kind, very commendable as the conscience of a movement, but not practical. It is for that raeson, the practical implementation fell on Lenin, and then Stalin and you all know where the "people's" revolution went after that.
What do we have on the ground as facts now:
1. A raging war (occupation, whatever) in Iraq that appears to be grinding down the US miltary in an unending conflict, and Bushco in denial about it.
2. A possible larger war on Iran to cover up the defeat in Iraq, and the imposition of Martial Law (next 6 months or so)
3. An economy in shambles
4. A country in recession that may deepen into something much worse.
5. The advance guard of the forces of climate change comes in, striking randomly and causing unexpectedly large relief and restructuring expenditures.
Let us start with these five.
A viable third party candidate must articulate his or her strategy with some fire in his/her belly, some passion to galvanize a dozing, tuned out, dumbed down masses as to how he/she would address these five issues and others. Do we have that in Kuchinik? IMO, no. That does NOT mean I don't consider him conscientious, inteligent and one of the best progressives with a good vision. But somewhere along the line he will need to beome a Nader or a Dean to catch fire. Kuchinik is too genteel for that. Gravel may be more of a curmedgeon, but he still projects more gusto than Dennis. Dennis must learn from Gravel how to project an "I am in command" attitude.
But from that fact, does it follow logically that one HAS to be inside the Democratic Party and "hijack" it from inside. That is Professor Green's contention, but at this point his argument is weak on tactic and the possible response of the DLC and its anointed candidates - - Clinton and (now it seems) Edwards. They are hardly going to put their tails between the legs and slink off. So there is a high probability that the highjacker will be highjacked a la Dean in 2004.
The hijacking can only be done with an organized base of at least 20% of the Democratic Base as the army behind the highjacker to be able to demand a seat at the table and dicate conditions for support to the Clintonites. Can that be done in the milieu outlined in Points 1 -5 above?
Scientifically, or more correctly, by realpolitik, NO.
So what is left (pun intended)?
Stealth and less bravado, less chest beating and hysteria on blogs. Stealth and calm will put fear in the apparatchiks of the Dems. Kuchinik must learn to project a style that he is up to something that may bite them in the ass when they are least expecting it.
For that, progressives must start grass roots at town halls, union halls, college campuses and elsewhere. Especially minorities - - don't make them feel left out by your cultural insularity. Right now the Green pary is mostly white, and many of the Greens have checkeered records on civil rights issues that are of concern to progressives, especially minority progressives. Kuchinik must be seen to be bulding a labour/green/ minority coalition. This constitutes the bedrock of the Dem party, and any fear of losing that will put fear in the minds of a lot of Dem candidates standing up for re-elction.
This can succeed if the Green party's workers are available to do the canvassing and organizing and the rest of us pitching in with time, money or knowledge. Then one must use the YouTUbe and the Internet to bypass corporate opposition to go directly to the people.
This success may come just in time to prevent Bushco launching a catastrophic war aginst Iran, Syria and Pakistan (and possibly Turkey, and now Saudi Arabia). If the latter happens, then all bets are off.
Aymon
The problem with trying to "hijack" the Democratic Party, as you say, is that many of us don't believe in the core values (e.g. abortion on demand, selifishness, recklessness) of the Democratic Party anymore than we believe in the core values (e.g. war, torture, capital punishment, facism) of the Republican Party. Those of us who think this way believe that many of the people who have traditionally called themselves Democrats are just as foolish and naive as the people who call themselves Republicans.
That's why a third party is not only needed but, I believe, will in fact eventually be formed. I also think that a true pro-life party (promoting and protecting life from conception through old age while also promoting personal responsibility) will eventually appeal to the majority of Americans, and will one day be the majority party. The Republican Party has become firmly entrenched as the party that stands for facism. And the Democratic Party has become the party that stands for little more than abortion on demand, along with facism. You may be able to cut loose the facism from the Democratic Party, but you'll never get rid of the selfish, spriritually bereft portion of the party, because it is not the fringe but is actually the core.
RE: POLITICAL SHIFT RIGHT DUE TO INDUSTRIAL TO SERVICE ECONOMY SHIFT?
susan parker July 28th, 2007 4:38 pm
"the 'shift to the right'...represents the shift from a manufacturing/industrial economy to [white/pink collar, service economy]" - w/less bargaining power for wages and political demands, as you write.
That's basically my view, too.
Worse, despite Justice for Janitors' heartening successes in certain ethnically solid & politically organized regions, union membership slips - and, with it, not only organizational opposition, but, essentially, the class consciousness that even New Deal Democrat programs depend on.
'But that's class warfare!' is not new - but it becomes a more potent right wing slogan when there are fewer in the electorate accustomed to facing off against capital across a bargaining table.
I think this view is important - because it focuses not just on the power of right, but problems of opposition internal to forces that have historically opposed the right.
I think the "shift to the right" simply represents the shift from a manufacturing/industrial economy to that much vaunted "white collar" or "pink collar" service economy.
The decline of the troublesome and demanding labor unions of course followed ... and wage stagnation followed to ... and work related benefits declined in turn ...
Most of the only unions left are public service jobs -- teachers, health care, police ...
When labor was organized and had money, they could not be ignored ... these days ... not so much. Other interests moved in to fill the vacancy.
[I'm still waiting to find a connection between the service workers Justice for Janitors campaign and Lou Dobbs, et al's hysteria wrt "illegals" ... historically, many "american" union movements have had to be imported and were fought and squashed on the basis of "commie" or "anarchist" outside agitators]
chlamor said:
"Okay you're on. What is Step One professor?"
Go to your local DTC meetings, get on your local DTC, participate in candidate selection, help shape the terms of debate, run for local office, run for the state legislature.
Tried and true blue stuff.
Among those other places that have passed clean elections is Connecticut. 100% public financing of all state races, effective 2008. Could never have happened without a lot progressive activists doing all of the above.
To those of you that say politicians will never pass "clean election" legislation.
Arizona, Maine, City of Portland Oregon and other places already have clean election systems.
Where I am in Washington State, http://www.washclean.org has been lobbying for legislation for several years. The plan is to get a voter initiative passed in 2009 if legislation does not pass the 2008 state legislative session.
These systems can get implemented and can succeed. It is certainly a more realistic path than trying to get someone elected who is fighting the effects of too much corporate money in the hands of their opponent and a media system that works against them. I say put your money and your labor towards efforts that can make VIABLE third parties a reality rather than support third party efforts that are doomed to fail in a system that is stacked against them.
abbybwood wrote:
"Excuse me while I go barf."
And,
"After reading every post after Prof. Green's article here, I must admit that I feel isolated, impotent, unloved and alienated from this country."
Don't we all! (Disenfranchisement is the name of game in today's world).
However, let's remember that people all over the world, at our current level of development, are almost exclusively externally-oriented...... Often to the point of obsession and "inner blindness." Don't get me wrong here. I do see it as critical that we focus (as in all of the comments here), on making change in the "un-real-real-world" of parties, politics, and human-human (and human-Nature) injustice.
However, in achieving a more just and wisdom-prone society, there are other beneficent kinds of power to draw upon, besides those we can see with our eyes.
Gandhi referred to such a "power" as "Truth-force. The Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. also spoke of it as "Soul-force."
While these energies can be utilized in evoking and unfolding outer change, our access to them requires an inner, rather than outer movement. A "going within ourselves" first. Genuine meditation: a quieting of the mind and an opening of the compassionate heart, free of "I, Me, and Mine." Each of us needs to hook up their own personal connection: getting our plug into the electric socket, as it were.
Not for nothing, but it seems to me that in today's world, which is literally teetering on the edge, we ignore these other dimensions of power at our own risk.
A
RE: BITTER, ISOLATED, IMPOTENT TRIUMPHALISM
erma July 28th, 2007 2:35 pm
"I was correct....I could cite you reams of information of why...but judging by your comments you still wouldn't see it because you don't want to see it (that's called Denial). So I won't bother presenting you with any information Go ahead and continue to...believe [Democrats] are going to be your 'lord and saviour.'"
Yea, no one but you and your cellmates know the truth, everyone else is wrong and stupid.
So - continue your bold "action": bash a strawman and then pull a Vietnam - declare victory and get out.
Cozy in your red ivory tower?
This has been one hell of a read today, just checked in to see what else was added. My take on all of this is the hired killers will never let anyone close to become our hero. Wellstone is dead, there is a reason for that and it's been repeated throughout our recent history. The whole empire thing has to end. The country should be broken up. This country is like the lava lamp that kept growing and adding to the point the glob wants it all. Secede States, civil war come what may, better than pursuing world war 3 while we diddle about what to do with the current world threatening situation that will make us sitting ducks. Fuck the elections, get ready, it's out of your hands. We all saw the Katrina victims, you are on your own. Get your food supply, ammo, be ready.
DMG and Chomsky are right. Hold your nose and vote Democrat. Some of the Independent-minded have been sucking on the pipe too long. Yeah, I understand, we all love a common dream.
RE: 3rd PARTIES - TACTICAL vs STRATEGIC REJECTION OF DEMOCRATS AS ONE FRONT OF STRUGGLE
RichM July 28th, 2007 2:03 pm
"don't see much that I disagree with in your explanation of the rightwards shift."
It is a question of the conclusions to be drawn from this explanation re seeking to reform or pressure Democratic Party.
The above posted explanation is not dependent on idea of US political system as an instrument of class rule. And, therefore, it does not follow that the political system is merely a ruling class ruse - vs. one contested field of power - nor that a categorical rejection of pressuring Democrats - a multi-front-struggle - must be rejected.
Thought that was clear. Guess not.
To Baska in response to this post: >>baska July 28th, 2007 1:35 pm>>
Thanks much.
I could not agree more with your two points. We need to find common ground and offer one another support. And we need to do real political work in our real, (off-line) lives.
My priority is to work in various ways over time to strengthen the Green Party and to create a progressive presence in the Democratic Party at the state level. After the election tragedy of 2004 a couple dozen of us created a progressive caucus in a midwestern "red" state--Kansas. See: http://www.kansasprogressives.org
Whatever we do, we need to do as you suggest Baska. This could be a planning forum. But it isn't yet. Much of our real work involves working with people and organizations we know--or involves starting new organizations. Thanks.
So professor Green let me start by saying you are obviously ill-informed of the history of Nihilism if you would use this as an adjective to describe Republicans. But that's a minor point in what really is a breathtaking article. One has suspend belief and ignore most of the last 50 years to think what you suggest is possible or even worthwhile. Fortunately we have the likes of RichM to explain the situation more clearly so those who come across this piece can see how ludicrous your proposition is. But let's take this in another direction for a moment professor. Let's suspend our beliefs and get on board with your program.
You suggest:
"...our best hope of implementing our agenda is to HIJACK the Democratic Party, make it ours, take control of it, kick out the DLC corporate hacks, and start legislating."
Okay you're on. What is Step One professor?
I'm assuming you have thought this through rather than simply posting such an article based on abstract fantasies. Really here, what is the first thing that is required of the likes of you and I in our successful hijacking of the Democratic Party?
After you give us some concrete answers on the First Step in this process could you then lay out at least a skeletal framework for what follows?
It's incumbent upon you to answer these things if you are to be taken seriously.
And for all who may have missed this superb analysis of the Democratic party by RichM titled, "47 Reasons to avoid the Democratic Party", go here:
http://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=68191
Professor you may wish to read the above. I await your response to my above questions or perhaps you could pen an article titled, "Concrete Steps To Hijacking The Democratic Party", or something similar to answer those questions.
In the meantime the "best of the best" of these Dems can't even fulfill their basic oaths of office.
BeingFrankwithBarney,
Dem koolaid drinkers like yourself were calling me a "defeatist" before the 2006 "election". Why? Because I said nothing was going to change by putting more Dems in congress. Well, Dem koolaid drinkers didn't want to hear that or believe that at all. They preferred to live in their wishful thinking world. Well, I was correct because nothing has changed by having more Dems in congress. The Dems are still Bush-Enablers as they have been since 2000. What you call being a "defeatist" is really being a realist and pragmatist. I prefer to look at things realistically and live in reality rather than in a wishful-thinking world like yourself.
I could cite you reams of information of why we are now in a police state (and have been for some time) with police-state tactics being used on citizens, but judging by your comments you still wouldn't see it because you don't want to see it (that's called Denial). So I won't bother presenting you with any information. Go ahead and continue to drink your useless Dems' koolaid and believe that they are going to be your "lord and saviour."
For anyone else interested, did you read this article:
Flag-defiling charge ends in fight, arrests
Sheriff's Office denies allegation deputy assaulted couple
http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200770725118
Something's brewing on the Left...
http://www.recreate68.org/
12 Warning Signs of Fascism:
http://www.mvp-seattle.com/pages/pageFascism.htm
RE: GRAVEL'S 'NATIONAL INITIATIVE' - GREAT LEGISLATIVE REFORM INITIATIVE
ezeflyer July 28th, 2007 1:45 pm
Meant to respond yesterday - good post and useful link - hope others will read it:
ezeflyer July 26th, 2007 2:20 pm
"Pelosi voted for the farm pork to help Dems running in ag counties. With a public referendum, she wouldn't have to make unpopular decisions like this one, or decisions favoring Big Money instead of the public. Let the people decide: http://www.vote.org/"
abbybwood (July 28th, 11:28 am) - some crystal-clear logic, which can be taken much further --
abbybwood responds to the "Let's push for clean elections" idea by noting that The problem with trying to get "clean elections" ... is that it's those very candidates who must vote in...campaign financing legislation ... and it is obviously not in their self-interest to do so. Therefore, it will never happen.
This is a valuable example of thinking in terms of how the system actually works. Sure, clean elections would be great. Who could disagree? But the very same things which have brought us to this abyss guarantee that no meaningful "clean elections" law could be passed. The same politicians who have helped Bush dismantle the Constitution are not going to turn around and suddenly be champions of clean elections.
This kind of clear thinking generalizes easily to the scope of the entire present discussion: Prof Green suggests a "hijacking" of the Democratic Party. But the Party's controlling players all know that the rank-and-file is well to the left of the Party's core strategists, donors, apparatchiks, & officials. They're well aware that "progressives" would love to "move the party to the left." It would be absurdly naive to suppose that they've not guarded against this possibility. A "hijacking" can never happen because the people who control the party don't want it to happen, and would fight to the death to prevent it from happening. The moment a hijacking actually got underway (if it ever got that far), the party's pooh-bahs would join forces with the media to savage the leftward move. Every day the NYT & WaPo would be haranguing about the "once-great Democratic Party, now sadly falling under the influence of hippies, radicals and communists."
---------------------
baska - (11:13 am) I don't see much that I disagree with in your explanation of the rightwards shift. Certainly the demise of labor is a big part of this story -- partly as a cause of the shift, partly as an effect. Michael Parenti's "Democracy for the Few" makes a powerful case for the political system being an instrument of class rule, partly "by definition" (ie, what the framers intended) & partly by the way the courts & subsequent flow of events caused the founding documents to be interpreted.
I've seen no evidence that the DLC gives a rat's ass about anyone who doesn't support Hillary ... the drip.drip.drip of announced endorsements and general demeanor suggest to me that we are seeing a demonstration of just what a good sport ol' Hillary is as she "spars" with the other candidates, deigning to stand on the same stage ....
Business as usual for as long as they get away with it ... and they'll keep up the appearances even as the walls of the fortress crack ...
The DLC is still trying the "repair the damage" done in 1968 when all those radicals "ruined" their party ...
They've told me for too long, in too many explicit ways that I am not welcome in "their" party ... short of recreating 1968 in Denver (which imho is a very bad idea and almost impossible logistically), I don't even know how we get their attention, when they are so very commited to ignoring us.
Besides our activism, voting for progressives, whether Green, Democrat, Independent, or whatever, that stand a chance of winning, is all that we can do.
Joining the Green Party will help to calm our conscience and to focus on the future.
Forming a progressive voting block may have to wait until we're closer to the election. Gore could run.
I'm hoping that some progressive candidates will adopt Mike Gravel's National Initiative, recognizing that it's a giant leap forward for democracy.
Also, we can work to convince candidates to adopt some Green Party issues in return for our vote.
RE: Progressive change: Reform Democrats, 3rd Party, or work on both fronts?
Earthian July 28th, 2007 12:57 pm
For the record, I agree. Good post and good work seeking to evaluate and find a way forward on a big thread on a big topic.
Two brief points.
First, I hope the clearly at odds w/each other progressives on this website can find ways to support each other and to think of themselves as supporting each other on this point.
Second - it is great and imperative that posters like you are also active. As I have posted numerous times before - I hope that, whatever their view, progressives posting here are active, and don't use this website or their party line - whatever that line is - as a substitute for engaging with others. It's not.
I am concerned that a pessimistic strain of feeling re change may lead posters into depending on this site - or other 'closed' communities - to rationalize their quietism: a militant, aggrieved, 'principled' quietism, to be sure...but a quietism, nonetheless. A withdrawal into the comforting idea that, simply by withdrawing from the established political process they are - without necessarily doing anything else - acting. They're not.
The author summarized his article above as DMG in his 7-27-07 5:36 p.m. comment.
First of all, that takes a lot of integrity and humility to read the comments and to join the discussion. That is very respectful of all of us who are commenting about the article. Thanks DMG. Now I address part of your summary:
"* It would be lovely if we could scrap it altogether, or just ignore it and build a better alternative.
* Indeed, I have myself followed that dream, voting for and volunteering for third party candidates.
* Wish as we might, though, there are clear and massive barriers to achieving this end, not least of which include the ideological diversity of potential third party voters, and the country's electoral system.
* History and the current composition of Congress also strongly suggest that success along this path is highly improbable.
* History also suggests another approach, which has worked in the past.
* Therefore, our best hope of implementing our agenda is to HIJACK the Democratic Party, make it ours, take control of it, kick out the DLC corporate hacks, and start legislating."
I'll summarize what I wrote above in contradiction to your proposed strategy.
You present a false dichotomy. You say our best (presupposing, single) hope is "to hijack the Democratic Party."
You use either/or thinking. You presume we true progressives must choose between either a third party or hijacking the Democratic Party.
But you present no evidence nor any argument that the dichotomy that you presume is valid. You only say that success with *the other side* (third party strategy) is "improbable."
But you say nothing--zippo--zilch--about a both/and approach that would embody both parts of your false dichotomy. If progressives agree to hijack the Democratic Party (which I believe is a great idea and is something I am doing already, having helped to establish one of the nation's 20 state progressive caucuses) what is to say that supporting and strengthening the one, national progressive party (www.gp.org) is contradictory to the hijacking of the DP option? I don't think it is. No one in any comment (or you DMG in your article) offers a tiny shred of evidence that progressives hijacking the Democratic Party is at odds with strengthening the Green Party of the United States.
But Red Harvest offers in his 7-27-07 11:16 p.m. post a far-reaching proposal for progressives to understand the rules of the system; to commit to changes to the Constitution as a new "rulebook"; to create "a single organizational banner" like the ANC; and hold a progressive convention to work out the constitutional details of the an improved government; work to build a critical mass for that proposal; and recruit candidates to run as Democrats on the unified progressive platform.
What Red Harvest advocates is right in line with the Green Party 2004 Platform which calls for IRV, proportional representation and other progressive electoral changes. It is consistent with Gravel's initiative proposal and with Kucinich's and Nader's electoral proposals. And it is entirely consistent with your proposal to hijack the DP.
But what will make the excellent ideas that you make DMG, and the great ideas of Red Harvest; and the many other good ideas presented in the various comments turn into a plan and action is this: both/and thinking. We don't need false dichotomies. We need a strategy to unify the many good options and ideas progressives have: including strengthening the national Green Party AND hijacking the Democratic party. But to develop a strategy requires a single banner that spans many various types of progressives with a trusted entity that is empowered by the American progressive citizenry to make decisions, perhaps subject to ratification like unions do all the time.
As I said in my post above at 7-27-07 3:06 p.m.:
"To create such thinking and the resulting plan would take progressive political unity with real decision-making authority that we do not now have.
The details of how progressives can unite politically to make needed plans–Democratic Party progressives, independent progressives and Green Party progressives–is another matter, but in history many groups outside the US have done this under similar circumstances. The ANC in 1912 is one. And there are others."
It is unity we need by incorporating good proposals into a larger plan, not arguing either side of false dichotomies, each of which have merits. That is the kind of thing that progressives could do once they, we, organize into something akin to Red Harvest's far-reaching, innovative proposal.
So we have a choice. We can be a progressive House of Babel and remain politically impotent in the current system. Or we can do that kind of both/and thinking to integrate and synthesize opposing views into coherent plans here in discussions such as this one, and in our political lives.
RE: CRCox: ON RECONSIDERATION, I AGREE: 1) CD HAS MANY 'THIRD-PARTY' VOICES; AND 2) 'EQUAL TIME' ON EVERY ISSUE IS NOT NEC. OR DESIRABLE
CRCox July 27th, 2007 4:43 pm
"there has been a great deal of journalistic positing about third parties...Just because it is not 'front loaded' doesn't mean it's not being addressed."
Yes, CD posts much pro-3rd party writing.
"that is a myth in journalism anyway, whether opinionated or not, that every side of the issue has to be represented."
I've thought it over, and, again, I agree. Not every article - nor editorial policy - has to be balanced.
Given the apparently strong 3rd-party slant of many CD readers, I would even say the article is healthy, since - w/o a counter-authority to support their views - it forced CD posters to support their POV themselves. Here, I must note disappointment that many posters' POV did not go beyond 'yawn' or 'shrug' or 'stupid'-type replies.
TO KEM PATRICK: I did mention the problem of rigged voting in previous streams. I was the one who suggested everyone watch PBS last night, "NOW". Greg Palast from the BBC was on and the topic was the rigged elections of 2000, 2004 and he said, "The fix is already in on 2008."
My personal mantra is, "ONLY VOTE ABSENTEE, XEROX YOUR BALLOT AND COUNT THEM WITH YOUR NEIGHBORS IN PRECINCTS."
TO BUSH TOOL: The problem with trying to get "clean elections" by eliminating corporate control of candidates is that it's those very candidates who must vote in meaningful campaign financing legislation (full public funding) and it is obviously not in their self-interest to do so. Therefore, it will never happen.
TO AYNOM: Obviously you are angry and I understand your anger. Just want you to know that I have many pictures I've clipped from The New York Times of children we've had a hand at maiming and killing in foreign lands. I've cried my share of tears over these photos. I can guarantee you that even though most of us have been focusing on the "How do we extricate ourselves out of this mess" rather than "looking at the mess we've made", we all are extremely upset with those who are currently in power in this country. If you read everything that has been written regarding Prof. Green's article I think that is all too obvious.
Last night I was reading the July issue of "Harper's". I noticed a book ad for "Deer Hunting With Jesus: Dispatches From America's Class War" by Joe Bageant. It made me realize what a tiny minority we truly are in this country.
How many of us watch television? Practically none, unless it's CSPAN or something educational. How many of us read books, like "Crossing the Rubicon"? Many. How many of us go deer hunting or kill spiders needlessly? Probably not many.
We need to realize we are living in a country of hateful, racist, illiterate, ethnocentric Stepford Americans. And they VOTE!! We are surrounded by right-wing religious wackos! And there is nothing on Earth any of us will ever be able to do to change any of them!
I've had more than one good friend tell me to shine on anything political and just live my life. "Forget politics. It's absolutely corrupt and if you give the rest of your life you will never make so much as a DENT in the way things are in this country. Go to the beach, write your novel...move on."
Sometimes I wonder what this country would look like sitting at a cafe in Paris chatting it up with the locals there. I wonder about being in Amsterdam or Sweden or any country where people at least TRY to love each other. Where there is health care for everyone and people communicate and are kind to each other. Where religious nuts don't rule the day.
Bush made a comment the other day about people "not loving him". He must see that he is not only not loved, but hated and dare I say feared at this point. Which is what he wants.
Maybe Claudius had the right idea. For what ever reasons he announced that he'd be dropping out for a while from Commondreams.
After reading every post after Prof. Green's article here, I must admit that I feel isolated, impotent, unloved and alienated from this country.
And to think that we've financed all this mess with our tax dollars for decades.
Excuse me while I go barf.
Another aspect not noted previously is the influence of corporate money in the process. People constantly refer to these infusions of cash into the process as "donations" when in point of fact they are INVESTMENTS. Corporations expect a return on these investments by way of favorable legislation on their interests and agenda. To think politicians are going to render illegitimate those interests are living in the worst kind of dream world. Noted film maker Roger Moore has asserted in his new film Sicko that Hillary Clinton received the second largest INVESTMENT from Big Pharma than any other US Senator. Since Clinton seems to be marching toward the nomination my question concerns her loyalty if she wins the presidency: will it be to those who elected her or instead will it be to corporations who supplied her with the cash to achieve her goal? How will ordinary citizens compete alongside of Big Pharma for progressive ideals/legislation without rewarding her with our vote? Money and corruption will win the day every time! That is the reality. And if you agree with this point, consider climate change dissolution of done deal under Hillary's stewardship when she needs to make a decision that might make her handlers in the auto industry a little too anxious.
We are at the tipping point to reverse negative consequences of climate change. Ignore it to your own peril. If Green thinks that we have thirty or forty years to enact meaningful change to reverse fossil fuel usage then I would question the dudes sanity or regard is entire views as a state of psychological denial.
Bushtool is spot on. Our system of government is built on conflict of interest. It takes money to win so money dictates the terms of the debate and money dictates policy.
We can change the name on the winning party but unless you fundamentally change the system the faces of the puppetmasters will remain the same. That the Democratic party is what it is today and that it has essentially followed the Republican Party headlong into this state of affairs should prove this.
Privately financed elections do not produce public officials, they produce privilege. Private law.
There seem to be only so many people in this country willing to get their hands dirty in local politics. I know too many self-identified progressive activists who know nothing, absolutely zip about their local Democratic Town Committee, yet they would refuse to get involved because "the Democrats suck". "Which Democrats suck?" "You know, Pelosi ... Clinton ..." "Oh really, they are stifling your town committee?"
"My what?"
Should a third party candidate/white knight indeed come along and wrest us and our democracy from the fiery clutches of the Republocrats by winning the protest vote, how will that campaign transform and sustain as a major party?
How does ballot access work in your state? What does it take to automatically qualify as a major party in your state without having to petition for ballot access every election cycle? Where are the local activists going to come from who will form the local town committees to keep this new voter driven thing running in every voting district across the land? Will they be "all new" activists who are already out there, ready and willing, but just waiting for the perfect party to come along? Doubt it. Or will this "new and improved" party consist old DTC and RTC members? Not likely.
How will this new party continue overpowering money with voters if public elections are still privately financed?
It won't.
If the system is the same then what it takes to win will be the same. If the people in this new party are the same then the new party will be the same. If the people pouting on the sidelines still can't stomach doing the work of candidate selection and holding officials accountable than the pouting on the sidelines will stay the same.
Screw hijacking the Democrats, hijack the Democrats AND the Republicans. We need some options here.
But taking over the government is hard work. I'm with the author, if most of you don't have it in you to take over a political party, you definitely don't have it in you to take over the government.
RE: THE 'RULING CLASS' CAUSED THE U.S. SHIFT RIGHT?
RichM July 27th, 2007 2:35 pm
OK, to explain the post-1970s shift right of Democrats and Republicans, you argue: the US two-party system is an instrument of rule by a capitalist ruling class; since the 1970s, global competition has produced 'hard times' for this US ruling class; and it has responded by passing on this hardship to most US'ers by successfully "clamoring" for right wing rep's/legislation/policies in govt. (Your second reason is that, at same time, the perceived threat of 1960s democratic tendencies led the ruling class to rein in progressive legislation before it got 'out of hand.')
I have a different explanation. The crucial issue, of course, is the idea of the capitalist class as a ruling class. I believe ruling class theory gives capitalists too much agency. In my view, power is aggregate. In capitalist nations, multiple forces make up progressive and right wing power, and these forces contend. Although all capitalist democracies are – in varying degrees – 'frozen' in the age of capitalism, the balance of power and political and social outcomes are not the same.
Historically, the US has been uniquely right wing in terms of social legislation securing worker rights. This is because, historically, workers are a stronger force in other western nations. That is: they have more power relative to right wing forces – capitalists being one of those forces: not enough power for revolution, but enough to wrest more from politics.
Historical factors are one explanation for US's relatively strong right wing and relatively weak left – a relatively undemocratic form of representational government, a racial/ethnically fragmented working class, post-WWII power.
Since WWII, I regard the steady diminishing of big industry/big labor as one crucial force in increased right wing power – as compromised as labor was, it represented a crucial 'countervailing' force against right wing forces. The shift was international – but, again: different outcomes in different countries: not a 'plot' to weaken labor, but an intnt'l economic trend that was less – or more – successfully politically opposed in each case.
From this explanation, the post-70s right wing shift is not a question of capitalists needing more money, but of the relative weakness of progressive forces - and lack of ability to get more of an enormous capitalist feast - in the US vs. elsewhere.
Since I do not regard the political system as by-definition an instrument of class rule, I do not categorically rule it out as ONE site of struggle - and, consequently, view my '3rd-party-ism' as a tactic rather than an immutable grounds of resistance.
Here's a better idea, one which might actually work in the real world:
Greens run candidates in every election possible, spoiling as many as possible. For a brief time, Republicans win every election and the Democratic party collapses. (which it will do anyway, only more slowly) Then, when Democrats and Greens beocome equally likely to win elections - equally "electable" - there won't be any perceived benefit for voting for do-nothing Democrats. There still won't be any viable "third" party, but there will be a viable opposition party.
I can see good arguments on both sides: try to reform the Dems from inside vs. building a powerful third party. Just like with all complex problems there is no simple answer or the perfect tool. You need many tools to build a house.
I think if we can address the following structural issues then both approaches (from within vs. from outside) will automatically gain traction and we'll be able to achieve the desired changes.
1) Get big money out of election (this will make it easier for third party candidates to complete, but will also help potential Wellstone-like candidates to rise inside the Democratic Party)
2) Implement IRV (the same thing as above will happen as a result of IRV)
Of course I do not know how to get these two things implemented. But I thought focusing on these two "STRUCTURAL TOOLS" rather than the "STRATEGY" (from within vs. with a third party) would be more meaningful.
Our current corporate-whore politicians will not change status quo. The only hope is "we the people". Can we have some ideas on how to approach this?
This discussion is about TACTICS, folks, not necessarily the running of winning 3rd party presidential candidates as THE solution (would that it were so). Therefore, it is about WHAT TO DO.
Here is something to Do that can make a significant difference.
Independent of how you vote in that long-off November '08 (if we are still given the chance), you can USE YOUR REGISTRATION (or affiliation) to make your "Vote" known RIGHT NOW. A Green registration puts you on the political map as antiwar and pro-impeachment. You immediately become a factor. Those are numbers that veteran politicians will understand--and you don't have to wait until '08. In fact, the sooner the better. Read about this thinking at switch2green.org.
Make today Election Day! "Vote" with your Registration!
Why wait until even primary season to show your antiwar credentials and force? Voting with your feet and with your registration RIGHT NOW already moves some pieces on the chess board when they least expect it.
They want you to play the Clinton/Obama Game. Show them you can play another one altogether.
Pressure recalcitrant Dems right now to put Impeachment ON the table! Don't wait for polls or primaries. Let them know where you stand TODAY! Your registration (or affiliation) switch can do that. They will not be expecting that and will have to react to a new equation.
We should use every instrument we have at our disposal to combat the Right and its enablers. That political tool is available to us right now. Those who feel they need/want to participate in the Democratic primaries, can switch back temporarily (if needed in your state). In fact a registration switch (and informing loudly your representative what you have decided to do) will help ALL progressive candidates, by showing the support for progressive issues and positions that a Green registration signifies.
WOW! If only THIS thread had been broadcast LIVE on C-span! The good news is this informed debate shows aspects of democracy ARE alive and well, if on a grassroots level.
WALT says, "I frankly think the country is ripe for a revolution within both parties. All it needs is the active and committed revolutionaries." Sounds like a plan. I think conditions relevant to our economy and further evisceration of Civil Liberties will cause this to occur, almost organically.
Personally, while there is all the evidence of an improvisational "history course" in this thread, I personally would like to send kudos to the following for interesting perspectives and/or points raised: TOM AMITY, SERIOUS PROFESSOR, JEREMY WELLS, PAUL BRAMSCHER, and ALANK.
Aymon has such PROFOUND compassion for the suffering of those directly harmed by inflamed U.S. policy that he asks we bring HEART to this subject/debate along with the expansive outpourings of our intellects. Compassion is the thing that can rise above all the disparate perspectives to cause unity in the cause of preserving life, the greater good, for the many. Meanwhile, I for one am glad that so many took the time to share their considerable insights in this forum.
Although what Green says is interesting, but we don't have the time. Wellstone was a powerful figure, a people choice and if had been allowed to live, ( the plane crash was no accident) he'd probably be running for president. Not only that he wasn't for the war and the senate lost an important seat when he was taken out. The country is too big and unmanageable.
QUOTE FROM ERMA
I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about but yes, there is a good reason to believe that this will not be the case.
END QUOTE
What I am talking about is the Civil Rights Act. What I am talking about is Social Security. What I am talking about is the Clean Air Act. How many members of a third party voted for those bills in Congress? How many third-party Presidents signed them? Those grand progressive achievements were made by shaping, steering, or taking over one of the two parties in power. I challenge you to cite equally powerful progressive changes brought about by any third party in the history of the United States. I believe that the lessons of the past are applicable to the future, and that we ignore them at our peril.
QUOTE FROM ERMA
We are now in a fascist state (police state tactics are being used on citizens around the nation) and we are on the edge of a full-blown Bush dictatorship. Bush has essentially unofficially dissolved congress as it is by making them irrelevant (declaring "executive privilege," dismissing subpoenaes as the "unitary executive" and referring in his speeches to "MY GOVERNMENT.") Meanwhile, the congress postures and has been complicit in all of this. We also have a fraudulent, corrupt voting system all over the nation which you also failed to mention, presuming this disaster can somehow be remedied by voting. Ha!
END QUOTE
If what you say is true, that there is no more recourse through the political system at all, then we have very little to discuss. In my understanding, the debate here is one about political strategy. If you honestly believe that this is a police state, I suggest you go visit a real police state an have your eyes blown wide open by reality. Defeatism like this get us exactly noplace, serving only to demoralize progressives, and to energize our opponents. This debate should be about (and mostly is about) how to make changes, not a litany of all the reasons that any change at all is difficult or impossible.
Many I think miss the main point here. As long as the two parties successfully get their corrupted candidates elected and reelected, supporting a third party will just be a waste of time. Corporate controlled media will promote the two parties over the third party. Because of this media manipulation, campaign contributions will continue to flood the two party candidates compared to the third party.
In other words, everything is stacked against a third party succeeding. Americans are not going to just wake up some day and realize, "Oh, I am being manipulated against my own interests by corporatists and self-serving entrenched politicians so I am now going to vote for the "____ party candidates". This is what Professor Green is saying "aint going to happen".
In order to have a realistic chance of changing this, reform must happen that will change a system that enables a bunch of incumbents and their hand picked replacements from maintaining power. One of the essential ways to do this is work towards implementing clean election systems that level the playing field with regard to candidates use of money in campaigns.
Once this money advantage is removed, then the "people" can work towards electing candidates that actually represent them over special interests. Once this takes hold, then we can go about the business of media reform, voting system reform, and other changes that WILL allow a third party to succeed.
But until some of the impediments are removed by those already in power, a third party that actually gets significant electoral support is just a "pipe dream".
For more information about clean elections, you can go to http://www.publicampaign.org/. To find out what activities are happening in your particular state, go here http://www.publicampaign.org/clean-facts.
The major landmine in the attempt to form a third party to address our grievances is that ... well there won't be a third party. There will be Thirty. Every stripe of extremist will get enough momentum to become "official" and then it will still (inevitably) come down to the Republicans and Democrats and the people who are willing to engage them, make them more responsive and effective and shift the current policies. I frankly think the country is ripe for a revolution within both parties. All it needs is the active and committed revolutionaries.
This is such a heated discussion that I have been hesitant about commenting. Nonetheless, DMG raises the issue of coalitions that have been able to control party platforms, but neglects to examine the nature of these coalitions. Certainly the Repugs have exploited the "perfect storm" of religious fundies, racists, sexists, and massive corporate funders. These groups have the advantage of highly structured institutions by which they can organize and mobilize. 9/11 further helped to coalesce these conservative/reactionary elements because the event helped to legitimate the underlying fear that animates such ideologies. Here I am talking about MSM propaganda, church mobilization, NRA, "pro-life" groups, and of course the power of corporate dollars to underwrite the campaigns. Perhaps equally important is the fact that the US has always been fundamentally conservative, if not proto-fascist (corporate-state control of politics, racist, nationalistic, "anit-communist," etc.)
The left has never had the same degree of institutional structure, media access, etc. And historically the left has always been fragmented in this country. AS DMG points out, although a leftist third party sounds appealing in some kind of proportional representative system, the proliferation of highly orgnaized right wing parties would most likely neutralize, if not futher marginalize, lefties. The likelihood of leftist groups somehow organizing into a bloc, then shifting the Dims leftward seems unlikely, and although the anti-war movement is strong and growing, it is not ideologically bound to other progressive movements so doesn't really hold much promise as a galvanizing issue into the future. Look what happened after the Viet Nam war ended.
I have no answer other than to admit my fear and loathing of what I see as more militarism, hate politics, exploitation of fear and the concurrent rise of even more fascistic domestic politics.
aymon, I'm not going to play the game of whose institution is bigger, nor was I being rude. Any comments on actual substance of the point would be welcome.
"seriousprofessor"
This article on CD on July 26 applies to "serious" people like you. Some of us have been academics too and possibly at better universities than you. Don't be a rude AH.
The Mainstream, Sane, Serious Joe Lieberman
by Glenn Greenwald
So serious are you serious like serious Joe?
CRCox: Of course subjective preference isn't all bad. My caution was against treating it as a naturalistic truth.
Yes, I prefer the improbable third party to the even more improbable tactic of reforming the party where progressive movements go to die. Fortunately, political participation is constituted by more than just electoral politics.
Hasn't KUCHINIK has been trying to "HIJAAaack..k... . k" the Dems for a decade or more? Duuu...h!!!!
Didn't DEAN try to to "HIGHJACK" (scream that please) the same Dim's in 2004?
And why are there 140 posts here, 48 under "Tillman" (the white football player), and ONLY 3 posts for those innocent Afghan children killed by your (yes YOURS - - you were 90% for Evil just 6 years ago, you WMF sh$%) bombs?
And here you are, 6 years too late, firing soap bubbles against LEVIATHAN as if "IT" (go read Stephen King's IT) is going to make IT tremble!!!
You have no compassion you MFWS - - - and you expect that some white (Nordic) knight in shining armour from King Arthur's lilly white round table is going to come and save you from 150 million of your own kind who are foaming- at- the- mouth Neanderthals out to nuke all of humankind that is not white? The only difference between you and them is that you want to do what they want to do politically correctly.
If there were even 30% solid support in this doomed place for a third party as you are all hollering and deluding yourself, then your stupid KUCHINIK is even more stupid than he looks. He looks just like Edith Bunker of Archie Bunker fame, and in a yahoo country where looks and macho are the only things that count as "presidential" he has as much channce as dear, lovable Edith would have had if she had stood up for PREZ.
DMG is just a messenger you dolts, don't kill him and ignore his message. Tell your Kuchinit (no spelling error there . . . .oooh did I upset you genteel white sensibilities? did I? sooo soorry, I am still working off my anger at your callousness about the Afghan children you --- yes you - - are killing) that if he wants to form a third party and lead a nation of white racists back into the human race, then he has to thump the table next debate to be at least taken seriously by that Wolf Blitzer (you know the one who is sucking at the same tits as the DLC).
There, so much for your third party. Do I support the Dems?? Are you insane, when they are trying to outdo each other as to who would fling more nukes at 1.4 billion innocent people who did nothing to you WS???
Yes, I am spiritual, but not your white robbed, Popish BSer. I told several times before that no compassion will be shown to you by the Universe if you do not show compassion and decency towards the millions of innocent non-white people your armies, made up sons and daughters of mothers like Cindy, are now killing of which you do not have the decency to register your sorrow even at their picture printed on CD.
Walk the talk of compasion and your "third" party will succeed. Otherwise you will be banging your heads against the granite wall of LEVIATHAN all by yourself.
GET IT?
Thought Shaman:
Rite on! IRV is our best hope.
www.instantrunoff.com
www.fairvote.org
www.instantrunoffvoting.org
www.calirv.org
www.irvwa.org
Check out these web sites and others. Happy revolting
There are some here who just don't understand the depth of anger that so many of us feel toward the Dems.
We were told in '06 "Give us control of Congress and we'll change things."
We did. And they didn't. Now the cadres are out telling us that we must put a Dem (presumably HER) in the White House in '08. Why? We gave them Congress and they are too afraid to do anything. Why bother?
I will fight hard those who oppose me. I will fight harder those who betray me.
"If changing the Democrats from the inside actually worked, then why did the Democrats in the Senate, 97-0, approve an amendment sponsored by Lieberman a couple of weeks ago that practically hands Bush a pretext to bomb Iran on false pretenses? A worst case scenario if Bush chooses to invade Iran is going to make a lot of this debate really irrelevant."
You're acting like people who say overthrow the Democrats have been tricked. Like I actually think current Democrats have any integrity? I don't. If we make them all independent like Lieberman we will get the structural benefits of the system, which the majority of people on Commondreams don't seem to understand. STRUCTURAL BENEFITS ARE VERY IMPORTANT. It's why a third party has not challenged the current system for over 100 years... you think that's going to change with this election?
It's amazing the trouble the single corporate party had to go through to get Lieberman into office after losing the Democratic primary. The Republicans joined up with the Democrats. The media endlessly attacked Lamont. Obama, Clinton, Edwards all of them had to make their betrayal known, and now many CT Democrats see current Dems for who they are, and probably won't support them because they betrayed their progressive candidate, Lamont.
Democrat is just a LABEL, that has NOTHING to do with how left a person's politics are. ANYONE can run Democrat. It's not the label that is inherently bad, it is the individual who is elected. It is not the LABEL itself that has forced politicians to betray us. A true progressive politician will always vote progressive, just like Wellstone, even if they call themselves Democrat.
Go back through your comments then, and replace the word Democrats, with the word "Black People".
Since the color of your skin has as much bearing with your politics as the LABEL of Democrat, you might as well discriminate that way.
Maybe I should Register Republican because Republican is ALSO just a LABEL, and at least people on the Ron Paul side of things actually understand it's easier to overthrow the system at the primary level with an angry mob, where only 1/10th of voters are showing up, than it is to change the system using a third party.
But too bad... Ron Paul is a [fill in the blank] who thinks global warming comes from volcanoes... so Mike Gravel is my current choice.
Nice try, David, but no banana!
The country is being hijacked; the process has been visible for years, moving steadily in relatively slow motion, yet NO ONE in the Democratic Party has bothered to mention it. In fact, they treated anyone who brought up those nasty things (like the war and attacks on our Constitution) as disease and vermin. Now you trot out that old horse, talking about "changing it from the inside." I don't think so.
If it weren't so deadly serious, your idea would be a laugh. Wake up, fellow. Game's over. You missed the party and missed the point. For over forty years progressives have been trying to change the Dems from the inside. Along the way they got rid of welfare "as we know it" (gave it to corporations), pushed for WTO, NAFTA and FTAA, presided over the concentration of media, and now with BushCo's near checkmate of the branches of government, you're going to somehow "take over the party?"
Sorry, David. For all the sincere and well-meaning folks still in the Democratic Party today, no single institution in America has better DISARMED the working people and minorities of this country, with their shamefully pathetic "analyses" of America's needs and voting patterns.
They sold America a right-wing set of goods in near-liberal clothing. Their phony "fight for the middle," the running after "soccer moms" as all our jobs went overseas without so much as a mention of that fact (except to lower wages and benefits). Dems bought into and peddled corporate globalism and "competitiveness" to citizens and refused to listen to the needs of what once was their base. However, they REALLY listened to their corporate campaign funders.
All the time they say, just vote for us. Get us into office and we'll show you. Yeah. Eight years of Clinton got us what? The Fourth Reich.
Hey, I know as well as anyone does that building (and winning with) a third party is not easy in the US. Not only are all the cards stacked against it, but the duopoly parties do everything to prevent it. That doesn't mean you don't do it, or don't need it.
The Republicans lately have done everything to prevent Democratic votes from either occurring or being counted. At the same time, our "friends," the Democrats, do what they can to prevent third parties from existing or running candidates. So much for democracy. Is this what you are asking us to support??
The most outrageous crimes against our nation (from vote fraud to constitution shredding) and massive war crimes are occurring, and this group cannot put together a slap on the wrist?
They authorized a gazillion dollars to fund troops to kill an an invented enemy, and they cannot even denounce the visible one standing before us trying to steal the reins of all government? Against THIS you intend to prevail? Its analyses, premises, strategies, values and practices are ALL WRONG. What exactly IS it you wish to salvage?? The brand name? Is this a hostile takeover by progressives you're suggesting?
And what do you intend to do with all the baggage and corporate lobbyists?
You want change from Democrats? OK, here's an idea. There is a MUCH greater chance of changing them by pushing from the OUTSIDE, than on the inside. For one, they do not listen to their own--they take their votes, then take them for granted. Two, they will only get the message when you get up and leave.
Historically, most major social and political change has come from the energy and dynamics of third parties.
While it may be difficult, it is infinitely more sane and productive to build a party based upon the visions and values we believe in and truly need than to convert a corrupted one. Brother, to get to Point B, you must first be willing to say you want to get to Point B. Can you get that?
For me, the Green Party already has the basis to build upon. Build a party that stands for what you want. There may well be times along the way when we have to still deal with the Democrats in their positions of power, including in some elections, that is fairly clear -- but always with the vision of building something NEW.
For the 20 or so minutes you spend in the voting booth every four years (or 10 or 11 hours if you are from Ohio), there is now no excuse or justification to waste ALL the OTHER in-between minutes of those years coddling a lame donkey. Vote how you wish, but BUILD a true representative party working for the re-birth of democracy, and end to the madness of "preventive" or pre-emptive war, one that is ready today to fight for single-payer (and single-payer only) health insurance, for women's rights, for a living wage and for workers' right to organize.
Every one of those ideas have been rebuffed by the Democrats for years.
IF we are ever to regain a citizens' government, it will be because of People Power, Americans coming together to save their nation and re-think parties, laws, democracy. Also, and perhaps above all, it is time to END of the all-distorting "corporate personhood" fiction. i don't believe that has ever been on the Dem agenda.
The current threat to our nation is dire and it is real. As an institution the Democratic Party has proven itself cowardly and not up to the task of of denouncing the abuses and dictatorial pretensions, much less organizing us to resist this executive onslaught. To the contrary they have shown themselves to be skilled enablers of those destroying our Treasury and Constitution.
So far the only ones the Democrats have told "to watch your steps" are not the abusers of executive power, but rather the progressive anti-war movement and third parties.
It doesn't have to be all black or white, David. There are still useful things to be done within the Democratic Party (above all to keep it from doing more damage). But it is time to hedge your bets and begin moving in seriously new directions for a society we want and need. If we are to get out of this mess, we need to put in real time and real dollars to build poitical alternatives.
So, David, stay there, if you wish, at your own -- and our -- peril. We need all the good people over here. Now.
That is exactly how I see it Erma. We will all see soon. I sure hope that I'm wrong, but we can see the obvious clues.
Kem Patrick,
Most people, including most so-called "progressives" do not talk or do not want to talk about our corrupt, fraudulent voting system. It's as if they want to pretend that's not the case. I talk about it frequently. Most people don't want to "go there" just like, if you've noticed, no one here (at least that I've read) has said a word in response to my question:
Has anyone seen any sign or indication that Dictators Bush/Cheney plan to leave in 2009?
Rove and Cheney have installed a dictatorship with the help of the Dems so why would Bush/Cheney leave in 2009?...yet no one wants to talk about that or think about it. Or perhaps people can't believe that would possibly happen. Really? Put NOTHING past these people. In my opinion, they didn't steal 2 elections just so they could be in power for a mere 8 years.
Just like "everyone" seems to be assuming there will be an election in 2008.
Why would anyone assume there will be an "election" then? There may well be one but in a dictatorship there is no need for elections especially when the congress has been rendered moot.
As for dux July, that person is obviously a Dems' koolaid drinker. That koolaid must be some strong stuff. Anyone have the ingredients' list? It leaves one in a state of denial and as an apologists for the Bush-enabler Dems. Pathetic.
So, Professor Green's suggestion that progressives to throw their weight behind the Democrats isn't new, hasn't worked, is immoral, dishonest, cowardly, and just plain wrong, etc. etc.
Oh yeah?
well, I haven't read any proposal in here that sounds any better or has any more chance of changing the way things are. You want to change the electoral system? You want to outlaw corporate greed? Outlaw ignorance? Outlaw conservative, backward thinking? Well, just get out your little magic wands and do it!
Earth to progressives!
Earth to progressives!
The Democrats are not the same as the Republicans. If you think that, you're either blind or as delusional as George Bush.
The Democrats are not our enemies. They are our friends. Imperfect? Indeed. Corrupt? Somewhat. Evil? No! Let me repeat that:Evil? No! For all their weaknesses and imperfections they are all we have. Like it or not. The Greens are not going to save us (though we all know they would love to) nor is that noble soul Ralph Nader. They don't have the power or ability to get the power. There is not going to be divine or extra-terrestrial intervention on our behalf.
Only the Democrats have the potential to chance anything.
Get real. Support the Democrats or you are supporting the Republicans --like it or not. That's the-two party/bipolar/seesaw world we live in.
Folks, the following quote from Kane Jeeves from another place on CD today is priceless. Perhaps DMG wrote the article above that is causing so much anguish here after meeting this "American" Neanderthal's (definitely white,imo)brothers and sisters.
KaneJeeves July 27th, 2007 4:31 pm
"Americans by and large don't care. I asked a coworker (early 30's, very bright, college educated) if she'd heard Karl Rove was subpoened. I got a blank stare. She had no idea who he was. We talked a little more…she heard there was something going on in Iraq but wasn't quite sure what. BUT she knew all about Tom Cruise's baby and latest episode of The Office. And she's young and college educated! And she's typical of so many I've talked to."
PowerOfLove wrote:
Green's way of phrasing this idea points to a central reality. Significant change in The Democratic Party seemingly will require a number of Congress-persons (and others) to discover within themselves the kind of integrity and courage that Wellstone demonstrated.
So this, I think is one of the central questions:
There are a lot of people with a lot of good ideas for solving the wide variety of problems we now face.
Most of them seem to have very little to do with the Democratic Party.
Do we have enough time to wait for the Democratic Party to develop a Wellstone or Wellstones (as opposed to the 20 or 30 Clintons, Steny Hoyers, and Rahm Emmanuels that it'll produce simoultaneously), as opposed to at least trying to change things on our own?
DMG writes:
..."All of which suggests to me that the party is ours for the taking if we want it. Given enough Wellstones, we can own this thing and shape it into a force for true progressive change."
"With enough Paul Wellstones..."
Green's way of phrasing this idea points to a central reality. Significant change in The Democratic Party seemingly will require a number of Congress-persons (and others) to discover within themselves the kind of integrity and courage that Wellstone demonstrated.
However, many people have come to the conclusion that he was targeted for just these qualities, and the direction in which he was heading.
Was Wellstone murdered for being a very outspoken thorn in the administration's side at a critical time? For a discussion of these issues, see Chapter 16 - "Silencing Congress" - in Ruppert's book, Crossing the Rubicon.
It is who counts the votes.....period.
A third party candiate will never win a presidential election.
Fix the voting and counting problems FIRST.
Then argue about Nader and whomever has the beat chance.
Got some really intelligent bloggers here however, really sharp people. They just don't get it, that our balloting procedures are rigged. If they get it, few mention it.
QUOTE:
usrcjp July 27th, 2007 11:34 pm
Enough with the Democrats.
As Common Dreams must know, most Democrats(and definitely the leadership of the Democrats) are complicit in what Bush has done. Why does this website, publish anything supporting the Democrats?
It is time to finally, completely and absolutely work against BOTH major political parties. They are both useless in making the changes that are now needed.
END QUOTE
Indeed! I would just add that it's not just CommonDreams. Why do so-called "progressive"/Liberal talk hosts keep supporting the Dems? These talk show hosts are so engrained with that D party-line thinking. I can't stand to listen to most so-called "liberal" talk show hosts because they are still drinking the Dems' koolaid so they make excuse after excuse for the Dems (such as "you have to give them tiiiiiiiiime.) Yet no one who has ever told me that I need to give the Dems time has ever responded to my followup question: How much time are you talking about here? I always get silence to that question.
Before the 2006 "election" I heard the Dem koolaid drinkers chanting "gotta get Dems in, gotta get Dems in." After the "election" they were jumping up and down and celebrating. I wasn't because I knew nothing was about to change. Why would the very people who had been enabling Bush since 2000 do an about-face all of a sudden just because they were in the majority. Now, these people who were celebrating after the 2006 "election" are now saying, "we need MORE Dems...about 60 more."
UGH. It's never enough Dems for the Dem koolaid drinkers. As I've said before, the Dems could have every seat in the House and Senate and we would still be in the same damn place we are today. Period. For example, it has been leaked out of the White House that the US is going to sell $20 BILLION of arms to the Saudis, you know, the ones who supposedly flew planes into the WTC. And because Israel does not like this deal, the US is going to sell Israel $30 BILLION worth of high-tech weaponry. That's what we need all right is more weapons in the Middle East (or anywhere!). Are the useless and worthless Dems complaining about this? HELL NO! Not with all this war-profiteering going on and with all these new high-tech weapons, the US can guarantee instability through the Middle East for years to come and the Dems are going right along with it.
So why is anyone still wasting their time with any of these Dem shit for presidential candidates? We already know who the annointed one is: Neocon Hillary "I'm going to be another Margaret Thatcher" Clinton.
Well, I ain't voting for any of them, assuming there is an election in 2008.
My personal choice is for Samuel A. Gobloot. Ever heard of him? I haven't either really. But he will be far superior to any of the shit corporate whores running now.
SAMUEL A GOBLOOT FOR PRESIDENT IN 2008?
I agreed with the first half of what Red Harvest wrote about the need for a new Constitution. In fact, there's a growing body of books that either deal with this subject directly, such as The Velvet Coup and The Frozen Republic by Daniel Lazare, How Democratic Is The US Constitution? by Dahl, and Our Undemocratic Constitution by Levinson which came out last year, or alternately touch on specific issues such as our grossly antiquated electoral system such as Hill's works or Steal This Vote by Andrew Gumbel.
At the same time, electing candidates as Democrats doesn't seem like a potentially successful approach at this point in time towards that end. Here's why:
1) There would be no guarantees that candidates, once they became elected as Democrats, would hold to their promises for a new Constitution for us. The obvious threat to hold over their heads is to ensure they don't win re-election otherwise-but doing this would necessarily entail having a third party alternative.
2) The Democrats, as a party, would be quite likely to do their utmost to sabotage other Democrats that did advocate what we wanted.
3) For these candidates to become part of the Democratic party would necessarily entail 'entangling' them in supporting a lot of the sort of unrepresentative structure that got us to this point.
Accordingly, although it's going to be a lot harder at first, I really do think that it might be better to start out with a clear-cut third party, and then build people up who won't be as easily corrupted (or craven) as the Democrats are right now.
yes, there is much valuable experience and perspective to be gained from participating in your local party ... and working on a national presidential campaign.
I'm doubtful wrt this being something of a "strategy" or "stealth campaign" to change the Democratic party.
First, there's the stealth part ... better to go in for the learning or lifetime experience than to go in having decided in advance that it needs to be "fixed." In my experience, that's a losing proposition. The negative I-know-better attitude is sensed and resented.
Second, there are likely thousands of Americans participating in their local Democratic organization as a "hobby", some for a campaign cycle, some for decades ... not only were they were there first, most of them simply do not share your objections. These people, who are hardly monolithic, have already made their peace with working "from within the system." They particpate because it's fun, it's civic minded, they have made friends, it's a family tradition, whatever ... they may or may not agree with "everything" but, like I said, they've largely made their peace.
Third, because we all only have so much time, recognize that participating in the Democratic party will mean tht you are considerably less available for other campaigns. They may miss you more than the Democratic party appreciates you.
As for "changing things," the democratic party focuses, as I see it, on electing people to office. The degree to which elected officials "drive the train" can be questioned. Certainly it is useful to have democratic elected officials, but it's use can be frustratingly limited (see the frustrations with our current "majority"). Special interests, groundswell sentiment, the media, and events also drive change. IMHO, educating the public wrt any number of issues is AT LEAST as important as electing people to office.
In contrast, getting people registers and to the polls, time tested and old fashioned as it may seem, in fact is remarkably crucial to making change happen.
In short, I think there are lots of good things to be gained from devoting yourself within the party ... but my impression is that "local" doesn't have much influence on "national." The 2000 and 2004 losses do not appear to have softened national much. If you decide to "work from within" you are likely going to need to soften sufficiently that you can, in good faith, campaign for Hillary or Edwards or Obama -- whatever ticket emerges. Life's too short to compromise too much or to work on things that are not your passion.
I eagerly await the author and other poster's action plans.
Enough with the Democrats.
As Common Dreams must know, most Democrats(and definitely the leadership of the Democrats) are complicit in what Bush has done. Why does this website, publish anything supporting the Democrats?
It is time to finally, completely and absolutely work against BOTH major political parties. They are both useless in making the changes that are now needed.
MAN YOU USED A LOT OF STATISTICS/WORDS/TWISTED LOGIC TO SAY JACKSHIT! I'M NOT VOTING FOR ANY CORPORATE SHILL AND IF THAT DISENFRANCHIZES 25% OF THE ELECTORATE(BULLSHIT)THEY MUST HAVE STAYED HOME ON ELECTION DAY. YOUR ARTICLE IS THE ALL TIME GREAT APOLOGIA FOR THE "ONE PARTY" SYSTEM I'VE EVER READ IN 60yrs - A PURE POINTLESS MIND NUMBING PILE OF TOXIC BRAIN GOO. CONGRATULATIONS. YOU WIN THE PRIZE.
Here's what I predict progressives will do when they finally manage to disabuse themselves of the notion that working through conventional channels will lead to anything other than more of the same, or else the kind of feel-good but ultimately meaningless and impotent symbolism embodied by protest candidates like Nader and Kucinich.
1) Understand that the current rules of our political system - and by rules I mean mechanisms embedded in the Constitution, statutory laws, judicial rulings and practical realities - make it impossible for the system to serve any interests except those of the financial elite. The wealth class effectively owns the American political system lock, stock and barrel, naturally including all of the significant major party politicians.
2) Commit to the development of a new rulebook - i.e., a heavily revised, updated and modernized Constitution - that addresses in a comprehensive, far-reaching and unambiguous manner all of the inequities, distortions, and unfair advantages that make inevitable the current reality of a "tyranny of wealth".
3) Show more single-minded determination, cohesion, and unity of purpose than any past generation of progressive activists in America ever has. Which will actually be easier than many people expect, given that there is arguably now far more at stake than there ever has been. Unite behind a single organizational banner in order to best leverage influence and effectiveness - the African National Congress representing a worthy role model. There is strength in numbers, but there is also inherent power in a compelling, timely and principled idea. One could say that Right makes Might. And I'm pretty sure Gandhi and Mandela would agree.
4) This progressive alliance holds ITS OWN FRIGGING CONVENTION to hammer out the details of the updated Constitution - one whose overriding purpose is to make government of, by and for the people a reality as opposed to a high-sounding but ultimately hollow slogan. Assemble the best academic minds, the most astute Constitutional scholars - do the advance legwork, the careful preparation, and take whatever time is required to develop something that fair and open-minded people will respect and take seriously.
5) Pour every ounce of energy into the job of building a critical mass of support for the idea that the New Constitution - or something very much like it - must be adopted as our country's new political operating system if America is to have any chance whatsoever for a peaceful, secure and prosperous future. That the antiquated, archaic and outmoded 18th Century version is hopelessly ill-suited to adequately address the needs and challenges of America as it exists nearly two and a quarter centuries after ratification. And continue to hammer on that theme ceaselessly and unsparingly - on the Internet, on campuses, in local chapter meetings - everywhere.
6) Recruit candidates to run AS DEMOCRATS - I agree with Professor Green regarding the futility of the 3rd party option - with the proviso that these candidates commit themselves without reservation to A) supporting the New Constitution; B) making its adoption their highest priority as lawmakers; and C) voluntarily agreeing to abide by all of its relevant provisions. These "public democracy" Democrats then get our votes and our unqualified support. The bought and paid for "country club democracy" Demowhores get our contempt, our disdain, and our categorical rejection.
I realize, of course, that right now - here in July 2007 - such a scheme as outlined above is far too extreme and audacious for anyone but a few crackpots and dreamers to even consider, let alone take seriously. But what I have seen quite clearly, in my many years of observing it in action, is that the system currently in place is quite immune to any meaningful change, reform or improvement - or at least by those striving to work within its crimped and narrowly circumscribed parameters.
What you see is unfortunately what you get - this year, next year, next decade, ad infinitum. But the reality is that things have now reached such an advanced state of decay, depravity and dysfunction that a continuation of the status quo is no longer a tolerable or acceptable option. So with each passing cycle of futility, the ranks of crackpots and dreamers will inevitably grow. Count on it.
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." -- Mohandas Gandhi