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The Mainstream, Sane, Serious Joe Lieberman
One of the favorite tactics of super-sophisticated Beltway media insiders is to band together and point to anyone who expresses views outside of their narrow orthodoxies and laugh at what crazy and unserious "wackos" they are --- in contrast to the very serious-minded, sane and insightful Beltway elite. The current roster of crazy losers includes Mike Gravel and Ron Paul -- the ones opposed to the war in Iraq and to American military domination around the world. They are insane lunatics, total losers, not fit even to be heard in public discourse among the Serious.
Thus, we are treated to an endless stream of snide little insults from the likes of Eve Fairbanks and Joe Klein scoffing at these "lunatics." And, as we all know, in 2004 Howard Dean was completely crazy -- a total wacko -- and Al Gore is vaguely insane, too.
By contrast, the pundits of The New Republic and Time who cheered on George Bush's invasion of Iraq and who work for Marty Peretz and who defend George Bush's lawbreaking and who spent years treating Dick Cheney like royalty and who carefully ponder with Great Angst whether we should start a new war with Iran are the deeply serious, very sane, mainstream thinkers who can banish the nerdy anti-war outcasts to the "lunatic fringes."
Joe Lieberman is, of course, one of the very serious -- deeply, deeply serious -- sane and mainstream political figures. Agree or disagree, he is a real serious and thoughtful and mainstream political thinker.
Last week, as Philip Weiss noted yesterday, Lieberman was the honored guest of evangelical Minister John Hagee and the group he leads, Christians United for Israel. As the Press Release distributed by Very Serious Moderate Lieberman aide Marshall Whittman demonstrates, Lieberman gave a speech there which Weiss, with understatement, calls "shocking." More on that in a moment.
* * * * * *
Lieberman's political comrade, Rev. Hagee, is at once both an extraordinary figure and a common one. He is an evangelical minister who, as an amazing interview he gave late last year to NPR's Terry Gross reflects, believes that "Rapture" -- whereby all Christians literally disappear from earth upon the return of Christ, leaving all non-believers to suffer on Earth -- is "imminent."
Rev. Hagee believes that before Christ returns, the Bible contains prophecies a series of Middle East wars against Muslims. And he also believes that God has placed an absolute bar on the giving away of any Israeli land whatsoever, and thus categorically condemns plans such as the "road map" and the Gaza withdrawal as blasphemies against God. In the Gross interview, the following exchange occurred, beginning with a clip from one of Hagee's sermons:
Hagee sermon: "For those of you in Washington, Jerusalem is not up for negotiation at any time, for any reason, in the future, no matter what your raod map calls for. There are still people in this nation who believes the Bible takes precedence over Washington, DC." TG: Pastor Hagee, if you believe that the Bible takes precedence over Washington - I would assume you think the Bible takes precedence over the Israeli Government as well --
If you use the Bible as the basis for policy, is there any room for compromise? And if you use the bible as the basis for policy, should Muslims use the Koran as the basis for their policy, and then again, what possible basis is there for compromise at that point?
JH: There is really no room for compromise between radical Islam --
TG: I'm not talking about radical Islam. I'm just talking about Islam in general.
JH: Well Islam in general - those who live by the Koran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews.
So we can never negotiate with "radical Islam," and by "radical Islam," we mean "all Muslims," because all Muslims, by definition, are radical, since they all are instructed to slaughter Jews and Christians, and thus can never be negotiated with. This exchange also occurred:
TG: I just want to ask you one question, based on one of your sermons, and this is not about Israel -- you said after Hurricane Katrina, that it was an act of God, and you said when you violate God's will long enough, the judgment of God comes to you. Katrina is an act of God for a society that is becoming Sodom and Gomorrah re-born. Do you still believe that Katrina is punishment from God for a society that is becoming like Sodom and Gomorrah?
JH: All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that.
The newspaper carried the story in our local area, that was not carried nationally, that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it would was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other gay pride parades.
So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the Day of Judgment, and I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.
So that is John Hagee (who, just by the way, had a private meeting late last year with neocon and convicted felon Elliot Abrams, who also happens to be the White House's Middle East Policy Director, and afterwards, Hagee pronounced that they were in agreement on issues of the Middle East and Israel. Just by the way). * * * * * *
Now, here is just a part of what the sane, serious, moderate, mainstream Joe Lieberman said when addressing Rev. Hagee's group two weeks ago:
Thank you for that kind introduction and that warm welcome. May I in turn greet you with the ancient words of welcome offered to pilgrims in Jerusalem -- "Bruchim Habaim B'Shem Hashem" -- blessed be those who come in the name of the Lord. That greeting is especially fitting for you because you have come to Washington not just as men or women, Republicans or Democrats, conservatives or liberals. You are here as Christians United for Israel. You represent a powerful force of people of faith in America who have pledged to never forget thee, O Jerusalem. . . .
I begin by thanking your founder, Pastor John Hagee. I would describe Pastor Hagee with the words the Torah uses to describe Moses, he is an "Eesh Elo Kim," a man of God because those words fit him; and, like Moses he has become the leader of a mighty multitude in pursuit of and defense of Israel . . . .
You know his story -- almost sixty years ago, a young John Hagee sat at his family's kitchen table in Channelview, Texas, heard the news about Israel's Declaration of Independence, and saw how moved his family was by it. Since then, he has been devoted to the defense of Israel, and to its vitality. He has done so because Israel's fight is his fight. Israel's values are his values. And Israel's hopes and dreams are his hopes and dreams.
Pastor Hagee, I pray that God will bless you with all that you pray for, and I do so with great confidence because I know what the Lord said to Abraham in Genesis 12:3. If ever there was a man who will be blessed because he has blessed Israel, Pastor Hagee, it is you.
You reject the temptation of moral relativism. You understand that there is a difference between good and evil, between eternal and temporal, between Israel and other nations . . . .
In a literal sense, Christians United for Israel was founded a little more than a year ago, in February 2006. But in a larger sense, it began more than 4,000 years ago with the first words God spoke to Abraham in Genesis 12:1: "Now get thee unto the land that I will show thee, and I will make thee a great nation" . . . .
That was the covenantal promise God repeated to Isaac and Jacob and then to Moses, who, with God's help, delivered the children of Israel out of bondage to Mount Sinai where they received the Ten Commandments -- their statement of national values and purpose -- and then, 40 years later, brought them to the land that was promised to them, to the land of Israel.
This is the long odyssey that has brought us here tonight. By standing with Israel today, each of you has joined that journey and taken up the torch that was lit in God's promise to Abraham 4,000 years ago, and carrying it forward to spread that light.
I believe that Israel's rebirth in 1948 was divinely inspired by God, but I know that it was realized by the men and women here on earth who worked so hard to make it happen. Israel will be sustained by the work of men and women like you here on Earth. And I know you know how truly American is your support of Israel. . . .
If we surrender to the barbarism of suicide bombers and yield the Middle East to fanatics and killers, to Al Qaeda and Iran, then all that our men and women in uniform have fought, and died for, will be lost, we will be left a much less secure and free nation, and our Middle East allies -- including Israel -- will be endangered.
Fortunately, you here tonight know that evil will not prevail if good people act. And I know you will not allow Iran and Al Qaeda to triumph over America and Israel.
Lieberman concluded his speech by describing the story of the Book of Esther which, Lieberman said, is "about the cruel Persian leader who sought to exterminate the Jews." According to Lieberman, Queen Esther was reluctant to try to convince the evil Persian King to spare the Jews, but she was eventually convinced that if the Persian King destroyed the Jews, all would suffer. Nobody would be spared, not even Esther. And she thus stopped him. Lieberman then told the group that "You are in this time like Joshua and Caleb in their time" and proceeded to explain what he meant by that:
The story told in chapter 13 of the Book of Numbers where Moses selects out leaders of the Israelites -- "men of distinction" -- to explore The Promised Land and report back, and all of them but Joshua, son of Nun and Caleb, son of Yephunneh, bring back a report that is cowardly because it lacks faith. . . . But Joshua and Caleb disagreed, "We can surely ascend and conquer the land, we can surely do it," because they trusted in the promise God had made to Israel. Of that group, only Joshua and Caleb made it to the Promised Land of Israel.
Dear friends, you Christians United for Israel clearly follow in the footsteps of Joshua and Caleb. Your faith is strong, and so is your confidence. And so great will be your effect.
I thank you and pray that God will bless you and all that you do."
Most of this speaks for itself -- loudly -- but there are a few short observations worth making and questions worth asking: (1) There is a very sizable portion of our country -- including a critically important part of the GOP base -- that favors endless militarism in the Middle East, encompassing not just Iraq but Iran and many others, for entirely religious and theological (rather than strategic or geopolitical) reasons. Perhaps that might be worth some greater discussion in the media.
(2) Could we at least all agree that it is long past time to dispense with the outrageous taboo which prohibits a discussion of the allegiance to Israel among right-wing neocon warmongers like Joe Lieberman and the influence that it has in their advocacy of endless wars against Israel's enemies such as Iran and Syria? Given that the likes of Joe Lieberman have formed common cause with the likes of John Hagee, and they all explicitly say that God demands that the U.S. defend Israel and wage war against its enemies, isn't it rather impossible to pretend any longer that no such relationship exists?
(3) Is there anyone who can identify the specific views of Mike Gravel, Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul that are "crazier" and more "unserious" than the views expressed here by John Hagee and Joe Lieberman?
(4) What exactly is the difference between the view of "radical Islam" that God demands that jihad be waged against Islam's enemies and the views expressed here by Hagee and Lieberman? Or the views of Osama bin Laden that God willed Middle Eastern land to Muslims and therefore can never be negotiated and the Lieberman/Hagee view that God willed it to Israel and can never be negotiated even if it means war?
(5) Could someone ask Joe Lieberman what exactly are the differences "between Israel and other nations"?
(6) For all of you throngs of media stars out there who spent much time condemning the Democratic Party for involving itself with such a wild, despicable radical like Michael Moore, do you have anything to say about Joe Lieberman's close association with, and drooling praise for, someone who believes that Hurricane Katrina was God's punishment against the City of New Orleans for its wretched sins?
If it is perfectly permissible for Joe Lieberman to openly associate with someone like John Hagee and keep his membership in the Serious, Sober, Important, Respectable, Sane Mainstream Club, with whom can't he associate himself? Is there ever a way for someone on the Right to remove themselves from respectable, mainstream Seriousness?
UPDATE: Just as I was about to post this -- literally seconds before -- someone e-mailed me this new video from Max Blumenthal which shows the true face of the Christian Zionist movement of Rev. Hagee, the one Lieberman has embraced so enthusiastically. Coincidence?
In the video, which Blumenthal filmed at the convention two weeks ago, Hagee proclaims to cheering throngs, who are waiving Israeli flags:
Therefore it is time for America to embrace the words of Senator Joseph Lieberman and consider a military preemptive strike against Iran to prevent a nuclear holocaust in Israel. . .
Blumenthal notes that of all the speakers at the convention, Lieberman received the "by far the best reception," and showed Lieberman saying this:
I want to take the liberty of describing Pastor Hagee in the words the Torah uses to describe Moses. . . and those words really fit him. Like Moses, he has become the leader of a mighty multitude, even greater than the multitude that Moses led from Egypt to the Promise Land.
Mike Gravel and Ron Paul are total wackos. MoveOn.org and DailyKos is filled with fringe extremists. Iran is led by warmongering religious fanatics. And Tim Russert and Dick Cheney and Joe Lieberman are very serious and responsible and wise.
UPDATE II: This is how Serious People talk about other Serious People -- Serious Person Joe Klein said this in February, 2006 about Serious Person Joe Lieberman (h/t Zack): "I could never imagine myself voting against him. But he was profoundly wrong about the most important issue of the past five years [Iraq]." Just think about that for a second. Klein goes on to criticize Lieberman for failing to express regret and error over Lieberman's support for Bush's invasion of Iraq. But Klein himself supported that invasion, and rather than expressing regret or remorse himself, now falsely claims that he did not (i.e., deceives everyone by claiming he opposed the war). Klein and Bill Kristol are two of the featured columnists in Time Magazine. And, like Lieberman, they are both very very Serious. -Glenn Greenwald
© 2007 Salon.com
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42 Comments so far
Show Allwe criticize Iran for its theological regime and its non-separation of Church and state and the hypocritical traitor, Joe Lieberman, want to do just that. ...What is so special about Israel? It is another apartheid, racist, war-mongering state that pretends it is a democratic nation. No leaders in the US should have dual-citizenship. It seems that Joe wants to make the US of A into the the US of I.
Glenn: This can't be true. You're a writer for South Park, right? What a great imagination you have! Really funny stuff! Can't wait to see the episode on TV. I'm sure all the serious people will chuckle when they see this far-out, over-the-top parody of themselves.
Brilliant.
But didn't g-d send the Jews into exile out of Israel? How come that is never mentioned?
And those waiting for the rapture--don't the Jews have to convert or be slaughtered? Never mentioned either in all this back-slapping.
And don't forget stunted school boy, Tucker Carlson, always ready with a handy "wacko" as a member of the Serious elite.
Lieberman's loyalty to Israel exceeds his loyalty to the United States. As the agent of a foreign government, he has no place in the Senate. Is his behavior treasonous?
apparently the Decider believes this hagee lieberman crap too...how is that worse than ahmadinejad waiting for the messianic 12th iman?
Liberman is a weatherman who loves the sound of him own voice. He checks to see which way the GOP wind is blowing and he blows the same way. He is not sane if he actually thinks that nuking Iran is what we need to do. Is this what Isreal is whispering to him? The consequences of nuclear warfare will be felt for decades to come. I suggest Liberman pack his bags and move to Isreal, where they will undoubtably toss flowers and candy at him, maybe even coins.
History has taught us that hatred will not make this a better world.
History also holds the following truths:
1)In 539 BCE the Persian king Cyrus the Great liberated Jews from Babylonian captivity so they could return to Israel.
2) Until the creation of modern Israel will all its consequences, Jews and Moslems got along splendidly. When Spain evicted all Jews in 1492 they were quite welcome in North Africa.
3) Chrisitan history is full of wars and cruelties to others.
4) Palestinians have worn the brunt of punishment for the crimes of the Nazis. A once proud people has suffered trmendously from Israeli occupation and humiliation - but it is a subject off the table in America.
5) It is hard to believe that in 1956 an American President actually told Israel what to do - return their army home from the Suez Canal. Those were the good old days.
hilljew, your "single jewish democrat senator" is talking about invading/bombing iran, possibly w/nuclear weapons. let's start ww3 b/c of a bunch of looney religious nuts, ok?
So, brother LIEberman...
What was the destruction of Jerusalem about in 70 C.E.? Was it not God's act of disdain toward the rebellious, secular nation? A nation, that like today, turns it's back on God's reasonable demands?
Another thing, by invoking the yiddish expression, " — "Bruchim Habaim B'Shem Hashem" — blessed be those who come in the name of the Lord"...sane, serious, mainstream people of the world, understand that there are many lords, and in failing to pronounce the name of YOUR lord, you show a hypocritical piousness known only to christendom.
I am amazed at the stupidity of some people, but simultaneously at the intelligence and resourcefulness of some others. The evangelicals as well as those who believe in Rapture are the first group; the Israelis are the second.
The Israelis do not believe in Rapture, but are pushing the ones who do to start a war with Iran, supposedly to bring about the Rapture. The Israelis know that in the event of war there would be no Rapture of the kind the first group wants, but it will be a Rapture for Israel that would become the strongest country remaining in that neighborhood.
Leiberman is a known agent of Israel, and silently laughs at those who are anxious to bring about Rapture.
Is anyone concerned that Lieberman is intent on representing Israeli and not U.S interests in the Middle East?
And how many others are there in the government who feel as Lieberman and Abrams do about Israel?
When in our history has a group of elected and appointed officials had this kind of openly stated allegiance to another country? Perhaps during the Civil War?
Basically what the "never again" crowd is saying is "if there is a next time, were taking you with us".
Lieberman would describe Pastor Hagee with the words the Torah uses to describe Moses, he is an "Eesh Elo Kim," a man of God because those words fit him; and, like Moses he has become the leader of a mighty multitude in pursuit of and defense of Israel . . . .
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....and like Moses would like to kill all the first born of Egypt, and will eventually die in a desert, (probably outside Las Vegas with a couple hookers and a big bag of meth)
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Dear friends, you Christians United for Israel clearly follow in the footsteps of Joshua and Caleb. Your faith is strong, and so is your confidence. And so great will be your effect.
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And like Joshua, are eager to commit Genocide on the non-jews.... leaving no man, woman or child alive
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There is no radical Islam, Islamofascists, Islamic terrorists, or similar other nonsense. The terrorism as we know it today was started by Israel, and then followed by the U.S. in a big way, and that has caused inevitable reaction. Allow me to prove it.
Sometime between 1965 and 1970 while I was in the U.S. I gave a ride to a girl friend of mine who was taking a domestic flight. She went inside the plane and I followed her and sat next to her. We spoke together for about half an hour until they announced that the plane was about to take off. I said goodbye to her and left. The plane was more than half empty, and now that I think about it, I believe I could just have flown with her and nobody would have noticed. Up to around that period nobody had hijacked any plane yet, and there was no talk of terrorism.
I'm not a Muslim, but if Islam is as bad as some claim, why was it so quiet for hundreds of years before? What caused these people to react?
I do not know how the state of Israel was created, and whether they terrorized and pushed the Palestinians out of their land, which is very much possible and may have actually been recorded, but as far as I remember, perhaps the first so-called terrorist act was when some Israeli athletes were killed by Palestinians. The "terrorist" might have had a real grievance. Why didn't they target athletes of other nations? These violent acts initially targeted Israel, and when it became known that the U.S. was helping and supporting Israel, the hijackers started hijacking American planes. Now, it's a double whammy. America is targeted not merely for supporting Israel, but for its own direct actions, among others, as a state terrorist.
Killing civilians is a horrible thing, but as Rumsfeld has said, you fight your war with what you have. There is no doubt that if "terrorists" had fighter planes and aircraft carriers, they would attack their tormentor with that. Besides, the number of civilians killed by state terrorism dwarfs the ones killed by "terrorists." Newton's Law: For every action, there is a reaction. What we see today is a reaction because this madness did not exist before.
"whereby all Christians literally disappear from earth upon the return of Christ,"
This may actually be a good thing. Hopefully 'Rapture' is imminent. Maybe if the 'good lord jesus' is really that friggin good he will take this turd lieberman with him and do us all a favor.
I'm very happy to take full responsibility for being a "wacko" in a land of hopeless mainstream thinkers.
This thing is just such a bizarre marriage of convenience, and so full of self-contradictions, it's impossible to sort it out.
Liebermann, a proud Jew, embracing a man who is happy the Second Coming is imminent as it will cast non-believers like Lieberman to the fiery furnace.
Liebermann supporting the War in Iraq and at the same time being keenly interested in the security of Israel. If there are two things we know for sure have resulted from the War it is this: Iran has grown more powerful in the region in every way; and, as a result, Israel is now far less safe as Iran's influence grows westward toward the coast.
Haggee supporting the nuking of Iran on grounds that it might keep Israel safe. Isn't the goal chaos in Israel? Doesn't chaos in Israel, wolves at the temple gates -- doesn't that raise the "Rapture Index"? It's like the stock market, higher is better, isn't it? Shouldn't Hagee want to roll out the red carpet for Iran?
Do you think Haggee has asked Lieberman, "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?"
From Lieberman's point of view, it makes sense to prop up a Christian movement that is fighting for your ethnic heritage and homeland -- even if it is self-contradictory for the rapture crowd.
Anyway, this thing is a mess.
But, the Old Testament is full of militarism. Jesus was rejected because he was not the militaristic, ass-kicking Messiah that was expected. So, there's no inconsistency from the point of view of the Jewish faith in Lieberman's platform.
Those that can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.
Voltaire
Did anyone else notice how mangled Leiberman's rendition of the story of Esther was?
Queen Esther was married to the Persian king, Xerxes. He had an aide named Haman. This was the king's personal Karl Rove. It was Haman and not Xerxes who wanted to kill all the Jews. Uncle (to Esther) Mordecai was on Karl Rove's, oops, I mean Haman's hit list and he had the gallows built to hang him. Anyway, the Queen intervened and the king hung Haman instead. This is a very different story indeed. Has Leiberman never celebrated Purim? And all this is coming from a Christian with no formal Jewish training. Oh, and by the way, the Persian (Iranian) Jews would not even move to Israel if you paid them - and they tried to pay them to do this.
Sorry Gyptian, there will never, ever be a rapture. This whole scenario is bogus. The best history I can find on this strange story is that an immigrant pastor from England came up with it in the 1840's. It was popularized by Pastor Rushdooney. And since his death Hal Lindsay, Tim Le Haye and many, many others have popularized it. This includes the Reverend Billy Graham. By repeating it over and over again, it has sunk into some poor souls mind that it is fact - but it is not fact and it is NOT based on the bible. They support this claim by doing a cut and paste form of bible reading. Instead of reading the entire passage, they snip a part out of here and another part out of there and make it sound bibical when it is not. You can cut and paste letters from a magazine and make it say whatever you want. It could be a love letter or a ransom note.
Anyway, I know that there could never, ever be a rapture because the entire scenerio is un-Christ like and un-Godly. These fundies have an image of a god who is quite evil and a christ who is a killer. They are feeding off ego, not God's love. Sort of like, Nyah,nyah,nayh,nayh I'm holier than God. But they aren't they are only deluded.
I Know. I am a recovering Fundie.
Anyway, the Zionists aren't real Jews anyway.
OK, here's where it gets all the more serious: Barack Obama bonded early in his Senate career with
Lieberman. He made Lieberman his mentor. Obama went to Connecticut to campaign for Lieberman. What
is one to make of that? It's a connection nobody is talking about.
I think I have just read another reason why Al Gore should not be trusted anymore than Dubya. Neither one of them know shit from shinola about picking a responsible vice-presidential candidate.
It's getting pretty bad when someone can make PNAC appologist Cheney sound almost moderatly reasonable. God deliver us from fundamentalist wackos whether they be Muslim, Christian or Jewish.
LIEberman talks about the barbarism of suicide bombers. What about the barbarism of Israelis who kill more Palestinians than Palestinians kill Israelis?
Israelis are fully armed and supported by the U.S., so they don't have to use suicide bombers. Not that I approve of suicide bombers, but my point is that the Israelis kill many more people, including women and children!
The flabby-faced LIEberman is sly and cunning. He's a weasel that belongs in Israel.
What's somewhat unusual about Christianity is that indigenous peoples (Celts, Teutons, Norse, Greeks, Slavs, etc.) were told to abandon their own tribal totems in favor of some other chosen group's god. Since they serve a foreign diety, evidently, they must serve its chosen, and foreign, Holy Land as well?
READING THIS EXCELLENT POST,AND FOLLOWING THE RABID CONVERSATION WHICH FOLLOWS IT,ONE IS ASTOUNDED THAT THE STORY OF THE COVENENT WHICH UNDERLIES IT HAS LASTED ALL THESE THOUSANDS OF YEARS.ONE OF MY LONG AGO PROFESSORS ONCE SHOCKED US GRASSHOPPERS WITH THE STATEMENT THAT JESUS WAS NOT THE FOUNDER OF CHRISTIANITY,ITS MERELY A NARRATIVE ABOUT HIM.WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT,THATS LUCKY FOR REV HAGEE,ISN'T IT.P.S.DO YOU THINK SEN.JOE EVER LISTENS TO HIS OWN SPEECHES? MOREOVER,DOES THE VETEREN SANE LAWGIVER I MEAN LAWMAKER,EVER WONDER WHAT THE CLASSIC ANTISEMITE HAGEE SAYS ABOUT HIM WHEN THE BANQUET IS OVER,AND HE IS ROLLING HOME ON THE BUS WITH THE REST OF THE BIBLE POUNDERS? IT CAN'T BE PRETTY.PEACE.
Well, I don't know quite what you're trying to say there, but ever since the West gave up on its own systems, its own chosen lands, couldn't one make the argument that it's been led astray?
Doll said:
"Queen Esther was married to the Persian king, Xerxes. He had an aide named Haman. This was the king's personal Karl Rove. It was Haman and not Xerxes who wanted to kill all the Jews. Uncle (to Esther) Mordecai was on Karl Rove's, oops, I mean Haman's hit list and he had the gallows built to hang him. Anyway, the Queen intervened and the king hung Haman instead. This is a very different story indeed. Has Leiberman never celebrated Purim? And all this is coming from a Christian with no formal Jewish training. Oh, and by the way, the Persian (Iranian) Jews would not even move to Israel if you paid them - and they tried to pay them to do this."
Thank you very much for this bit of info. People here know that i am interested in ancient ME history and beliefs, but and am a Hellenist (believer in logic and reason for important human transactions that affect the lives of innocents). I find all three "Abrahamic" reliogions fundamentalists THE most serious danger to peace today in the world.
Could you please tell me where the information you cited is located in the Torah?
Also, another question that is also relevant to this blog as the Senate has just voted 95 to 0 (JULY 25) to bomb Iran.
That is, did Xeres allow Esther to practice her own religion(Judaism) in addition to getting rid of K.Rove of his time, and if did, does not that make the Persians a sensible and pluralistic a people?
For those who are historically challenged, Xerxes was Zoroatrian, as most Persians(Iranians) were for nearly 2000 years. However, he was an "absolute" king as many all over the world were until the French Revolution, and everything nasty that comes with that ideology, which by the way is being revived now under you know who in front of your eyes.
Well obviously as pointed out in the article Lieberman is simply an ass-kissing corporate military stooge. He has no brains or convictions and is a total nut-job which explains his voting record with the Republican Party. However, I liked the link with Klein who is another nut-job corporate hack with no backbone or conviction.
Excellent article!!
Don't you wish all Freedom Hating Repukes would move to Dubai?
doll wrote:
"I Know. I am a recovering Fundie."
how did you manage to start recovery? just wondering whether it could be applied to others
This has the benefit of being funny, I suppose. And finally when our political system and "leadership" has strayed so far from sanity and enlightenment, perhaps a good laugh is all we have left.
It has long been a political cliché to mock old Soviet leaders such as Brezhnev and Andropov as wooly-headed ideologues. When compared to nut-jobs like Lieberman and Hagee, however, those old Soviet dinosaurs belong in the Lyceum with Aristotle.
Thanks to Mr. Greenwald for demonstrating, as if there was some doubt, that we are now importing our "sane", "serious" political class straight out of Freedonia.
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
why are dual citizenship holders allowed to hold political office?
Wake UP America - people with allegience to other sovereign states are RUNNING YOUR COUNTRY.
We in the US are taught that the genocidal land-grabbers of our history were merely "settlers" who had to "defend themselves" and their "right to exist" in the face of fanatical & inhuman murderers who wanted only to kill them all in their sleep. The survivors of the genocide were gradually partitioned off into smaller and smaller slices of land while the "settlers" gained immunity from "terrorist attacks".
When Daniel Pearl was killed, all US media outlets complied with the Zionist state's insistence that he be portrayed as an American citizen, not as an Israeli, in order to beef up support for the new genocide which the US is to undertake. Given our history, it is impossible for any candidate offered by either party to pledge not to use nuclear weapons against the indigenous Arab & Persian populations. Madeleine Albright already confessed her complacency with the dysgenic practices of her president which resulted in one-half million Iraqi children's deaths. The compatibility of the Zionist goal with the Global Manifest Destiny mentality of BOTH political parties in America is what makes the AIPACites unassailable. The thing is already written into the collective iconography of the American mind: they are the barbarians who imagine that their lives are really as important as ours; we will always be the innocents trustfully sleeping in our beds, no matter where we've constructed our barracks or corporate complexes, while they will always be the barbarians driven by subhuman beliefs.
It takes a good deal of self-administered de-programming sessions to cease to believe in AmeriZion, either in its original form in North America or in its new incarnation in what was known as Palestine until the victorious empires in WWII decided it should be rebaptized Israel.
It would be good for Hagee to tell us what was the substance of his conversations with Mike Kerns: something to do with his flock and money.
I was on my way to work when I stopped by here, and now I'll have to be a little later.
I was, after reading this, and watching the Blumenthal piece, looking for my old co-respondent Saila, with the idea of partially agreeing with him/her. I find the actions of Lieberman nearly traitorious to at least two groups of people: Americans and Jews. It is amazing to me that Lieberman, as an Orthodox Jew, chooses to blind himself to the ravings of this lunatic fringe organization. That he doesn't realize that after the 'rapture' not only with the Muslims be gone, but so will he and and the true Jewish people, ones who believe in one God, and not the teachings of Christianity.
But then I read some of my friend Saila's (and other's) posts and I was saddened by his/her knowledge, or possibly lack thereof of the reality of the Middle East. I do not disparage Saila, but I do think that s/he needs to read more, study more and learn more about the history of the region from sources other than the one's s/he quotes. No, this is not an attack on him/her, far from it. It is an attack on the education that s/he and others like him/her have gotten through distortion, from both anti- and pro-Israel sources.
I will confess that much of what s/he espouses s/he firmly believes, but can't we equate those beliefs with the false conclusions drawn by those, like Lieberman, who support Christians for Israel. I am sure they and he firmly believe in what they espouse, but I am reminded of a scene from Men In Black, where K says to J: (I don't have the precise words): people knew the world was flat...until they discovered it wasn't.
In this spirit, Lieberman and Saila will need to get the same revelation: what they see, what they deep down in the hearts know, may not be the reality.
Saila, I truly await, as I do with Lieberman the beginning of a true education. Please understand me, after reading and learning more, both may still come to the same conclusion.
I do not support all that Israel has done, because I was there for a year between the Six Day and Yom Kippur wars, and saw what could be done, and what should be done to actually bring about this peace. I saw the camps the Jordanians set up, and have pictures, and a saw right next to them the schools and hospitals, roads, electrical wiring, shops that had been recently built. I wandered the streets of Nablus, Bethlehem all of the West Bank and saw Muslims, Jews and Christians trading and buying and selling from each other.
I saw the beautiful palatial homes of the Palestinians was I walked for three days around the outskirts of Jerusalem, and took refuge in them for tea and cakes and talk. Some of the best and most courteous hotel lodging could be found in East Jerusalem, along a road that in 1948, Arabs ambushed and killed nurses form Hadassah Hospital. That was what was happening, that was a reality. The reality of that time was that it was possible for Israel and the Arab countries to make the conflict go away, and both are to blame for it not happening.
I am now waaaay to late for work, but welcome Saila and others to open dialog, fed by reality and education, to see what was and could be. I pity poor Mr. Lieberman, he is misguided and will, following his own logic, see what he has wrought: support of an organization that doesn't need him, after the rapture.
Shalom, Salaam, May peace be with y'all
http://www.cactus48.com/deiryassin.html
Lie-berman and his ilk are "serious" all right--like a metastatic carcinoma.
His position that Israel is unique and different from all other nations cannot be read as anything other than Israel is BETTER than other nations. The ineluctable conclusion is that his loyalty to Israel outweighs his duty to the United States. "What's that spell? T-R-E-A-S-O-N!"
Indict; try; imprison for life. It's time we call him, and all the neoconmen, what they are: traitors to our country. And they should be treated as such.
I was so flummoxed by the hijinks of lieberman,and hagee,that i didn't check my post for grade school spelling errors.in any event,all i was actually trying to say was that even if there is no G-D,its best not to presume to be HIS ventriloquist.
Joe Lieberman is a complete wacko. And, that's why he embraces John Hagee, another complete wacko. For Elliot Abrams to allow Hagee to visit the White House shows just how wacko they all are. It's AIPAC--no matter WHAT they call themselves. The Christian Cultist wing of AIPAC--American Israel Political Action Committee--calling itself Americans United for Israel. They are WACKOs people, and their end-times prophesy is no different than Jim Jones' kool-aid. They deserve America's contempt. Only morons would believe this stuff.
Whenever I see a reference to DEIR YASSIN, I am reminded of the worldly advice that goes like this: "An eye for an eye only leaves both of us blind, and solves nothing." For every Deir Yassin, I am sure, their is a analogous event on the other side.
If you truly want to end a conflict, don't go a re-visit it to justify another horrendous action. IF we do that, peoplekind will need to solve the Cain and Abel story (let's ee who's right, there?).
If you truly want peace, and justice for people, no matter who, no matter when, start your Peace Clock TODAY, NOW and work to resolve TODAY's conflict, that could become tomorrow's conflict.
It is time to stop fighting things we cannot change and move on.
To Aymon:
The story of Esther is not found in the Torah but in the old testament book of Esther. It is a very good read. I just finished re-reading it after your comments. I guess I was wrong about Mordecai being Ester's uncle. He was her older cousin but he raised her after she was orphaned.
Mordecai uncovered a plot against the king and exposed the two plotters who were then hung. He had a run-in with Haman, not because he was Jewish, but because he would not bow down to Haman. Haman then discovered that he was Jewish and had the king produce an edict condemning all the jews to death.
The king was up late one night unable to sleep when he started reading some of his documents. He discovered that it was Mordecai who had saved him from the two would be assasins. He wished to honor Mordecai and had Haman do the honoring. Once it was reveiled who plotted against Mordecai, namely Haman, the king had Haman hung on the gallows that he built for Mordecai. Meanwhile, Mordecai replaced Haman as second in command. This Persian king was not against the Jews but instead had Haman's edict rescinded.
This story is very different from the one Joe Leiberman told the fundies.
To writer2:
I never went along with the politics of the fundies; I could never be a conservative - I'm just not selfish enough. I noticed that everything was an echo chamber. Nothing was ever new. No one ever moved from the starting position. Then, I started watching the televangelists with the sound off. You could see their true nature in their body language. Hagee, in particular, came across as a very hateful man.
I discovered a website now known as religioustolerence.org (I can't seem to link it up to this site, sorry). I learned much about all religions from this site but what really opened up my eyes was a little reported quote from Pope John Paul II. The Pope said that there is no such thing as hell.
Well, that blows the fundie docterine completely out of the water. I was able to confirm the quote and the fact that at some time in the past, the editors of the bible replaced four words, sheol, gehenna, hades and tartarus with the word hell. What I have not been able to find out, though, is who did it, when and why. If anyone knows, please let me know.
FYI Both sheol and hades mean the same thing- an underground place where people lived until their next incarnation. Tartarus means about the same but not as nice. It is the word closest to hell and is only used once in 2Peter. Ah, but Gehenna. This was a garbage dump during Jesus' day which burned day and night. This is where the fire and brimstone stories came from. Jerusalem was a big city even then. The stench must have been awful. It was located outside of the gates to the city. So when Jesus said of the religious leaders of his day, ...you make your converts twice as fit for hell as you are yourself... he was speaking of the garbage dump.
How in the world did Lamont lose the election to this nut job??????
Connecticut there is a terrible stain on your voting record. You are now officially represented by a madman dressed as a "serious" politician. Why did you allow this maniac back in the senate where tomorrow if he decides the dems have gone to far in pursuit of W and Igor he can simply switch parties and give control back to the religious fanatics and the corporate shills.
Doll:
Thanks very much for the info. I had checked this blog on th 27th to see whether you or someone else had an interest in this and had provided any further insight into Queen Esther. So it is very nice of you to blog this.
Another thing that is directly related to this article:
I have been reading about the "Israelis and the Palestinians" for nearly 50 years now. I have also done a lot of research on the issues and the surrounding areas' history and culturs starting back from Ancient Egypt. My knowledge and grasp of Ancient Egyptian civilization and the critical role it played in the development of the "Abrahamic" religions is pretty good. The role it played in the development of Alexandrian Hellenism is absolutely foundational, and I am an unabashed Hellenist(believer in logic, reason, humanism and THEN spirituality that is consistent with these three foundations - - Plotinus being a case in point, regardless of Bertrand Russel's opinions). Hellenism is the foundation of the Renaisance and the Enlightenment in the west from the 14th Century onwards to the end of the 18th century.
Had the West continued in that Hellenist direction, then it would have truly been a light unto the world. Slavery, the "conquests" of the new world to "spread the word of Christ" and all the related human degradations were brought in by the corrupting influences of Judeo-Christian fundamentalisms
The last real Hellenist articulation and experiment was the foundation of the US as a Republic based on logic. Jefferson, Franklin, Washington and others were out and out Hellenists (sometimes Hellenists are confused with the Free Masons, who also derive their inspiration from Ancient Egypt and Hellenism). Unfortunately, against his better judgment, Jefferson was later corrupted by the slave owners to consider africans as 3/5 humans, a concept that the hellenists of alexandria, plotinus, aristotle, Hermes etc. would have found against Ma'at and revolting.
Hellenistic influence on America's foundations is seen in the Declaration of Independence and The Consitution, where pluralism of thought are cherished as the highest ideals of a free people. It is emphasized in the enduring symbolism - - The Obelisk, The Reflecting Pool, The Pyramid and The Eye of Horus on the Currency, the Greek architecture on the Supreme Court building and elsewhere.
I say "last" above because immediately afterwards, a new assault on Hellenism took place in the West in the 19th and 20th century by Judeo-Christian fundamentalism. We are now witnessing the culmination of what the fundamentalisms of all three "Abrahamic" religions always inflict on the world - - unreason, illogic, wars and chaos - - leading to extinction of Life on Earth as we know it.
It is on this understanding that I am not surprised by the 60 year "Israeli- Palestinian" conflict, that has cost fundamentalist US about $3trillion and counting, and has brought the world to the brink of nuclear war. For how can any group of rational humans fight over a piece of sand (that is what Israel-Gaza-West Bank is in the ultimate analysis) that is about the size of, perhaps Connecticut or slightly larger(who cares), the place of domicile of the extreme fundamentalist "Serious" Joe Lieberman who claims species relation to the Human Race.
Can the world please edge back from the brink of a world wide catastrophe of nuclear war because of that piece of sand?
Also, oil can be bought at a reasonable price with certainty. To spend $2trillion and counting on war to get it with a chance less than 10% is economic and human stupidity supreme that only non-Hellenist "Abrahamic" fundamentalisms can display.
Peace
Aymon
Instead of eagerly awaiting the joys of Armageddon and Rapture Kookie charlatan Hargee should have used the great opportunity he had while attending this conference of Likud supporters by converting them to the true faith of Jesus. Never mentioned in these various articles is the sex scandal a quarter-century ago in which Hargee was involved with a young man and woman. I never did find out how he and others of his ilk manage to slip out of these predicaments.