seems only Kucinich is the answer for candidates
impeach and hang the rest
give to me for fish bait
ask Hilary about Mena
someone please

foamweapons --

[like your name]

QUOTE: . . .
That's why I think the best way to promote change is vote in the primaries as a Democrat to get rid of people like Lieberman, Pelosi, Clinton etc… THEN if we fail to get someone similar to Kucinich to replace them, vote Nader or Green. QUOTE

Voting Green I don't think will make any immediate change at the presidential level. And could put us back in the hands of Republicans -- maybe a Jeb Bush -- ???
Newt Gingrich? Maybe a Swartzenegger? It can help a great deal with local and State offices -- there are a lot of wins. That's my opinion.

Nader has outlined that primaries take the decision about who a party is running out of the hands of the party.
It's rigged -- and with computers, now more than ever.
The smoked-rooms were evidently the safer places for these decisions.

Kucinich is the least worrisome of the Democrats --
I also like Edwards --
I'd like to see a female president . . .
but I'm not looking forward to voting for Hillary.

PS: We're still left with the question . . .
Is John Conyers betraying us by denying us impeachment of Bush? Is Nancy Pelosi betraying us?
Or do they both see this as strategy???

Coupled with the foot dragging of Sen. Harry Reid and the refunding of the war . . . I don't like the odds that they don't quite have the same concerns that we have!

Yesterday's exercise had some considerable value, in that it should put an end to Conyers' ability to work both sides of the street. By going out of his way to cause the arrest of impeachment advocates, Conyers defines himself as a Bush Administration supporter and the enemy of any effort to call that administration to account.

Put another way, the Democrats simply want the Bush presidency for THEMSELVES. They have not the slightest interest in keeping government within constitutional boundaries. As old Senator Aldrich of Rhode Island once put it, any professed motive but power and self-enrichment is simply "sentimental rot." A pity this confrontation didn't happen in early January instead of late July!

From other articles on the same subject, it would appear Conyers' tactic is a classic example of bait-and-switch. Last Fall, and to select audiences as late as this Spring; Conyers has PROMISED impeachment. He will do so no more!

Lacking constitutional provision for recall of the president, vice president and members of Congress; the only course for the antiwar, impeachment crowd would appear to be this: refusing to engage in or with this premature campaign for president--no money, no work, no attendance at meetings or rallies--UNTIL impeachment and our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are satisfactorily addressed.

This premature presidential campaign was always a diversion from war and accountability of present office holders--and it will be "off to the races" again with whomever is elected president. I've read of HRC telling her military briefers she expects US troops to still be in Iraq at the end of her administration (20 January 2009 through 20 January 2017)!

ask Hilary about Mena

Presumably, MENA was part of Iran-Contra?
It's another reason why we have to end the phony drug war.
It's white gold and those at the top aren't going to ignore the profits -- never have.
Naturally, drug trafficing can't go on without the corruption of government officials -- not everyone -- just some -- and police enforcement.

As if anyone has time to read comment 103. Still, I want to stick up for Conyers. Medea Benjamin is a writer I always take time to read. But this time she doesn't give Conyers credit for all the good he's done. He led the investigation of election fraud in Ohio and published a book detailing it. He sponsored HR 676, enhanced medicare for all. He called Bush on the #10 Downing Street scandal. He has not betrayed America. He has a conscience. He and the other members of the Black Caucus, and Kucinich, Schakowsky, ... not many. He seems to want to bypass impeachment and, instead, fuel the revolution.

"As if anyone has time to read comment 103. Still, I want to stick up for Conyers. Medea Benjamin is a writer I always take time to read. But this time she doesn't give Conyers credit for all the good he's done. He led the investigation of election fraud in Ohio and published a book detailing it. He sponsored HR 676, enhanced medicare for all. He called Bush on the #10 Downing Street scandal. He has not betrayed America. He has a conscience. He and the other members of the Black Caucus, and Kucinich, Schakowsky, … not many. He seems to want to bypass impeachment and, instead, fuel the revolution."

The so-called "good" things Conyers has done will be washed away in the flood of consequences stemming from the subversion of the bush administration. This country has been destroyed. It lingers merely from the momentum of the old economy as it winds down. Impeachment is the Constitutional method of removing a despot from the White House. Revolution, military mutiny, and assassination are the other methods.

"It is shameful that Conyers and Pelosi are putting their perceived interests of their party above the Constitution, which clearly makes impeachment the remedy for dealing with presidential "high crimes and misdemeanors"."

It's time for people like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul to run as Independents. They really need to remove themselves from the one-party system of misrepresentation and deceit.

"If we do not impeach President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, we establish that it is permissible for future presidents and vice presidents to deceive Congress and the public into futile wars, engage in widespread illegal spying on Americans, detain prisoners without charge, engage in torture, operate in secrecy and refuse to execute laws passed by Congress." -M.E. Marino

Are we supposed to believe that Democrats are going to repair the Constitution which George Bush has torn to shreds with his "unitary executive" theory and "signing statements"?

If you think that a Democratic President will defend and uphold the Constitution with a "unitary executive" theory in place, consider this:

"Those who seek or want to hold onto their existing power are not about to condemn the man (or his actions) who has done so much to extend its reach." -?

Excessive government secrecy on an unprecedented scale as we are experiencing today does nothing for the people; what it does do is increase and preserve "unconstitutional" governmental power while it covers up fraud and gross mismanagement of U.S. Foreign Policy along with our tax dollars.

Promises, promises, promises! We're tired of the rhetoric from both parties!

Karl Rove is pulling it off AGAIN. Ever read about his method of taking down political enemies? It's always much the same. He spreads destructive gossip through a number of sources. Divide up the votes and keep the Republicans in power. Do you really want that? REALLY? I would suspect that there are professional blog posters on the payroll of the RNC as well as the news and commentary writers. Rove has been doing this for many years. Stop being so darned gullible.

Basis For Impeachment

Americans must blame themselves for the dreadful policies of Bush' team. After allowing them to steal two elections, we then stood by while the Senate defaulted their primary duties by allowing this theocratic (and unelected) president, to select unfit and dangerous people to key judgeships and other vital positions. Other unprecedented abuses that have proceeded unabated (or with token resistance) from congress include manipulation of science and facts to impede vital environmental reforms, impediment of investigations into 9/11, gross misinformation concerning the war and terrorism, character assassinations of those who oppose his policies (remember Senator Max Cleland, a triple Vietnam amputate who was branded unpatriotic and unseated for sponsoring an investigation into 9/11 which Bush opposed)--and the list goes on.

The gravity of abuses from this administration eclipse the Lewinsky scandal which led to an impeachment, and are more serious than the Watergate affair which brought down a presidency.

Ugh. Can we just call it like it is for a change?

Impeachment isn't going to happen, nor are we going to leave Iraq BECAUSE the Democrats think, probably correctly, that all they have to do is give Bush enough rope & he'll hang himself. Their logic is that the war is HORRIBLE PR for the Republican party, and so far they've been spot-on. As far as their concerned the worst thing that could happen would be Bush pulling out, blaming it on them, and having the whole country fault them for losing Iraq just like we did Vietnam.

What are we going to do about it? NOTHING. That's right, nothing, because we STILL know that calculating, spineless pricks are "marinally better" than lying, stealing, murderers.

We talk about POLITICIANS being all talk: there's idjits on here advocating not voting, the very barest minimum a US citizen can do to perform his civic duties. You won't vote, but we're supposed to believe you'll start some sort of revolution? Boy, you're FUNNY. Have some more Doritos - american Idol is on ina few minutes.

Bear in mind, this bozo in the white house has been lawfully elected at least once. That goes to show just how gullible we are as a nation.

Thank you Medea Benjamin for lending some creability to what I have been blogging about on Conyers and his supposed stnads against Bush-n- Corp since last election. He sounded too good to be true andif you want mroe info on him look at his ameded speches in Record and compare them to hias actual vote, who pays his campaign funds and the increase of the amounts for last two years.
He is a phony held up by the Democrats to rally the more radical persons who want to impeach Bush and get brign power back tot he people.
No amount of or body of work by his staff has shown they realy care about inpeachment but they sure know who to hit up for funding and spend more time researching for other party members to add Conyers pork to home district.
Conyers actions in regards to Sheehans group shwos his true stripes once and for all. find someon to run against Conyers, we already have one against Pelosi.
Conyers is a consumate politco and has survied by kissing the butts and not having any real position of his own since he gained office.He is a good co-sponsor to the right bills by the right persons so that his home folk get steady diet of pork.

John Conyers has been taking principled, courageous stands in the House for 43 years, from voting against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution to defending Haiti's democracy against the U.S.-sponsored coup d'etat to filing a bill for reparations for slavery every single year. He has been publicly talking about and working on impeachment of President Bush for longer than just about any other elected official.

Saying that a man with such an unsurpassed record of standing up for what is right "has betrayed the American people" and occupying his office because he is not yet moving forward on an impeachment bill with 13 co-sponsors almost defines myopic.

Conyers is a welfare junkie and if he gives peopel welfare issues then he is a nice guy but behind the scenes even the enhanced health bill made the Pharms and HMO's billions of dollars in pure profits.
A radical who let the government be dismantled by playing rob from the rich and give to the poor politico game.
The Democrat party has esxisted on welfare issues to their voters which puts their voters in the same position as a crooked congressman taking bribes from a pharm or agri corp and then says well it will mean jobs back home. Yup and someone else will pay for them.
While they were doing the social restructuring that made it possible for men like we have in power today to destroy the workings of government all the while watching thier own fortunes grow they now find out that it was all one long briber and the purse strings will now be closed unless they kill the welfare groupies resistance to the new Direction nation is headed.

How can we beat Karl Rove at his own game?

HIPPY-Which election did Bu$h "LEGALLY" win?AND WHERE IS OSAMA bin LADIN?

)Due to length two posts)

RE:OSUgradstudent July 24th, 2007 6:10 pm

"Impeachment requires a simple majority in the House, and Democrats could EASILY impeach this president and vice president. But it would serve NO PURPOSE unless the Senate could convict Bush and Cheney, and thus remove them from office."

***While I agree with you it is an uphill fight, and possibly undoable, the fact remains the action itself is more than a 'statement'. It serves notice to this corrupt administration that the walls are closing in.

Ok, let's look at another scenario. Now the Bush administration thinks they have covered their asses by passing the legislation last year that gives them amnesty from prosecution; I believe it was an amendment to the MCA 2006 (Military Commissions Act). What a call for impeachment does is it puts our legislators in the position they must stand in public and declare their position. If they stand with this administration they stand against the overwhelming majority in the country, and face (if not certain) very likely ousting from office come 2008. The public is mad as hell right now, and becoming more & more aware of the shafting they have endured over the past six years (more like 25+ actually). Pretty much anyone who doesn't make a break from this corrupt administration RIGHT NOW knows his or her chances of re-election fade drastically despite what the English mangler known as Bush calls 'incumbentory advanitude'.

Sure, there are a number of states considered solid red, but they are fading quickly. This administration is running on three bald tires and an impending flat on the fourth. The house will go further blue and the senate also. Any Republican Senator that doesn't come on board NOW gets cast adrift, and they know this. It's political suicide to 'stay the course' with this administration.

(2nd part)

Ok, so here's the other portion of the scenario (followed by the third). Just as legislation can be passed by one congress, it can be rescinded by another. The MCA of 2006 can be overturned in 2008-9, making all the crooks liable to prosecution for their crimes. The World Court has already labeled them as subject to being put in the dock for crimes against humanity. What better way is there to restore faith in American justice worldwide than showing that even our highest executive must obey the law, and if they don't the slow wheels of justice will grind them into the dust. Americans, on both sides of the aisle are proud of our country & legacy, suffer abuse to a limit, then act toward positive change. Impeachment must be a viable option on the table now.

Unfortunately, the scenario has a pretty nasty third part. With BushCo backed up to the wall a major attack on the lower 48 is not just a possibility, but a distinct probability. This is much more than the $2.3 Trillion in missing military materials made known a day before 9/11, that was overshadowed by the events of the next day. It's even more than the fact when WTC #7 'mysteriously' collapsed it took with it the records of hundreds of cases due to be taken to court of insider trading on the stock exchange.

No, this doesn't just threaten the financial interests of the big wigs who have been repeatedly & thoroughly screwing us; it puts their freedom, at risk, and possibly even their heads in a noose. BushCo knows this, and they have been quietly making preparations for the confrontation through Presidential Directives. The first was May 9, and the most recent was July 17 (curiously timed to be signed in the middle of Cindy Sheehan's march to DC to call for Bush & Cheney's impeachment proceedings to be initiated). They're trying to protect themselves in any way they can because they are nervous. Expect anything from them, including a 'false flag' attack (or attacks) within our borders. Then they will play the overused fear card, and according to the Presidential Directive of May 9 take over complete control of all branches of government. Anyone who raises hell & objects will be subject to the July 17 directive, which says they can take all the assets of anyone 'they' declare is in any way aiding the foes in Iraq (if you are forcefully opposing BushCo, in their warped thinking you are aiding the enemy).

An event will happen before the next election (Chertoff's 'gut' feeling was just to soften the public response toward acceptance), an emergency will be declared & martial law following that (and the May 9 directive lets Bush decide what constitutes an emergency & when it ends), then the elections will be cancelled (because they know they couldn't win anyway), dissidents (already stripped of their assets by the July 17 directive) will be rounded up (or ignored because they are broke), then off to the concentration camps rumors have it are built (ostensibly to house illegal aliens), voila!

This is why an effort for impeachment must be initiated NOW.***

RE: jistis July 25th, 2007 2:13 am

I agree with you (about Conyers people-oriented credentials), and while I understand Cindy can 'pluck your last nerve' Conyers could have probably handled this situation a bit better, don't you think?

RE: conscience July 24th, 2007 11:08 pm

"John Dean reminds us that IMPEACHMENT turns "Executive Privilege" into ashes"

***Thanks conscience, I hadn't considered that, but what about claims of "national security"? It seems Bush would argue that testifying about top secret material would open him up to charges of treason, and he could invoke the fifth. His loaded up court, of course, would back him up, and then we're back to square one. It's really a screwed up mess, isn't it?***

In all this anti-Democrtic Party, anti-Pelosi vitrioll I missed someting: are there the votes to impeach or not? It's a yes or no question.

Spoke with a woman in Philly yesterday who was arrested along with Cindy. She said Conyers response was something along the lines of : "If you don't like it, vote them out", and I thought--Well, we voted you in and look what good you are considering the years you promised how things should be different--and now you're in a position to change it--and you are useless.

Interesting and a little volatile in Philly yesterday. Many older activists. Jewish folksinger singing bluedog Congressman Murphy's praises who claims to be for bringing the troops home until you read the small print, is banging the war drums on Iran, won't support closing Gitmo, voted against the fairness doctrine, advocates spending hugh sums to outfit small towns in the middle of PA against terrorist attacks, claims the NY reservoirs are primary cause of flooding--not over-development and climate change--although the reservoir argument has been disproven, BUT introduces bills condemning British universities for boycotting Israel--as was done in So. Africa effectively--champions the Zionist cause and rolls in big bucks....
Nasty looking jackbooted thug Viet Nam vet motorcycle group there to harrass Sheehan. I recall them from the Abbie Hoffman memorial years ago--bad news--prone to violence.

OSUgradstudent July 24th, 2007 10:03 pm
If Sheehan runs it will be a laughable joke.

You expose what you really stand for but since you're part of the Ohio strain I understand perfectly.

.

Impeachment is off the table because the WhiteHouse has pictures of Pelosi and Conyers in criminal acts such as sexual misadvertures with children or animals.

Or the true owners of this country (the rich plutocrats) have told Pelosi and Conyers that their districts would suffer economic boycots which would cause their loss of office.

Test post makes it but other 2 posts disappeared?

C'mon.

We are bewildered as to why Conyers and Pelosi are afraid to impeach only if we ignore the obvious.

Although playing it safe to keep their office sounds somewhat plausible, the real reason -- the only logical conclusion -- is the Democratic skeletons (everyone has some skeletons) dug up by the NSA spying, combined with the Wellstone effect, and of course the fact that most all members of congress quietly understand the true nature of the events of the fall of 2001, which means that yes, JC and NP are fully aware that Bush and Co will play the false flag card if they are cornered.

I can't remember if it was this article or the other where the waitress posted the fact that she, like JC and NP, is between a rock and a hard place because she can't tell the customer that the cook is an asshole because the cook has the power to make her life miserable, so she bites the bullet, but in any case I found that to be a perfect analogy.

So what to do? Spread the word and hope it reaches a critical mass before anything bad happens. It is scary to read the posts here about martial law scenarios -- not only scary for what life would be like, but scary to realize, knowing what a lot of us know about this administration, that it is not improbable. To think that these may be the good old days is sickening.

Wish I had something more positive to say. Can someone help here?

How annoying. Just posted 2 comments and both disappeared off the face of the earth.

Spoke with a woman in Philly yesterday who was arrested along with Sheehan. She claimed Conyers responded along the lines of, "If you don't like it, vote them out to change it", and I thought about all the promises he made and now that he was in a position to change things he proves his unworthiness--after all, we voted HIM in. Democrats were complicit in enabling Bush--that is why they are reluctant now--see how Clinton et al attempt to evade the subject or portray themselves deceptively.
Mostly older activists in Philly.
Scary jack-booted thug Viet Nam vet motorcycle group there to harass Cindy. I recall them from the Abbie Hoffman memorial years back. Volatile bunch.

Hope is not a strategy. Words don't pursuade liars. But, brute violence can.

Listen and read: The democratic system doesn't work anymore. Impeachment won't work. If you think you live in a fascist society, and we do - be an anti-fascist!!

Get off your ass, now, and when you can get away with it, go do some serious damage to anything that carries an international corporate logo, and that's just for starters.

And the suggestion that Democrats or their families are somehow threatened, rendering them useless--Cindy Sheehan takes that very real risk every day. If you can't take the heat--then bow out and allow someone who believes that it is the right and worthy thing to do for the Country. Now that is a true patriot.

Full agreement with too many posters to name.

Comment - Voting!!? Anyone putting faith in a POLITICAL solution is dangerously naive.

Established fact - Good, progressive people now have very dangerous enemies in positions of power, not only in the White house, but in every neighborhood.

Alert - If you are still unaware, THIS IS AN ECONOMIC WAR! It has been and now is being fought in every corner of the world. It is being won and lost with CASH.

Shop at Wal-mart or die.

Take back the media.

I just came back to NYC from Middle America and there the people are oblivious to what is happening in Washington. They don't know how much Bush and Cheney deserve to be impeached. Okay, some know -- but the vast majority seem to be in la-la land.

Take back the media so the people, all the people, well MOST of the people, will demand impeachment -- and get it.

Evidently the author of this article has been bought by the Bush administration and the Republican Cultist Party. A blind man can see it.

I am so sick and tired of the Democrats caving on us. They were elected on the premise that they agreed with the majority of the American people that we want to end the war in Iraq and more and more of us want impeachment proceeding to go forward against Bush and Cheney at the very least. Suddenly they are all wimping out with nonsense like "we have more important things to focus on" etc. NO WE DON'T..there is nothing more important than bringing this band of criminals to justice! They forget that the crimes of this administration deliberatly involved us in an illegal war..that itself is an impeachable offense. They've hijacked our country and are trying to dismantal the infrastructure..piece by piece and they are so bold and arrogant they don't care that we all know what they are doing. They are turning this country into a dictatorship (remember "it would be easier if this were a dictatorship but only if I was the dictator"?) and they're right.. our representatives and senators are all too cowed to do anything about it. It's sickening and they are all to be condemned and removed in the next election.. if we have a next election.

Vote for a Democrat if you want the agony prolonged. Vote for Republican if you want a quick death as opposed to a long drwn out death. (death of democracy and freedom)
Take you're pick!

Cross posting here:
I am curious if it would be possible to file a law suit against John Conyers et al to force them to fulfill their constitutional duties?

laddy - I am not a blind man, so perhaps you can explain it to me. What are you talking about?

Any person in the House can stand up and read Articles of impeachemnt and they have to be acted upon by the body.
It is just a beginning step and may get thrown out but it will still be on record that such Articles were began.
\the least the eaklings in US can do is have it part of this administrations Legacy be so noted that an attempt to bring them to trial was made.
It is not the damned honor of the elected we should give a damn about but the honor of the country.
Yes they may not have enough votes but damn it bring it out into open discussion and then see what reaction of Americans is.
It is not a one day affair and days of arguments would go on where Americans could watch and see the articles as they are presented and defended before a vote is even taken.
Just one and then demand the rule of law apply to that presentation.
Impeachemnt is not that hard to begin no matter what Pelosi and Conyers keep saying.
There are many routes to Legal introduction of procedures.
To of placed so much trust in Conyers in first place was a mistake and he was but the pawn to give appearances to soem Democrats taking action without any substance to back it.

Commondreams seems to be doing quite a lot of screening. I posted information I received from Obama on impeachment yesterday and it was removed. What's going on? "People should not be afraid of their government" - V for Vendetta

Republicans and Democrats..they are the same.Promises while doing campaigns but no political will and commitment when power is reached.A lot of noise on the Inmigration reform Bill, a lot of noise on the troops withdrawal issue but at the end nothing happens.Democrats of the 60's are missing and needed badly.

I have been keeping up with the posts and I realized there are two things we can do. One is to keep posting our anger, frustration, knowledge on these message boards, which is fine. But after looking at all the perspectives here, this idea occured to me, and please feel free to comment or make suggestions. I was thinking that here are all of these intelligent people expressing their political views. The vast majority of us appear to be on the same page where we would like to see some sort of action take place to stop this dangerous Presidential Administration from doing more damage. Then I thought, if I was a grassroots organizer and all of these people are posting their frustration, outrage, views, how could I organize them so that we could have a greater impact instead of sitting in front of a computer doing what we are doing. What if we broke into small teams, and each team has a responsibility. For example, the naysayers who think it all is coming to an end should get out among the public, and hype the gloomy picture and hook it on the Republicans to ensure that people do not vote for the Republican Party hopefully for decades. Those of us who are for the Democrats, work closely with them and encourage them to keep moving forward with legislation to change the status quo instead ( I am not for the Democrats, but it is the lesser of two evils here). Those of us who refuse to go along with the Democrats ought to work tirelessly at pushing for reform in various capacities. Someone among us needs to stay on top of the schedule for protests in various cities and be sure to inform the public where and when they will take place. For those of us who are more spiritual than others, go to the churches and inform people that if they really cared about society and its well-being, they would not support an Administration that puts corporate profiteering and protecting its buddies over the needs and safety of the American public.

Here is how this will work: each team will have a captain, and once a week, each team reports on its progress. Remember, even though this exercise might feel as if we are doing little or nothing, we actually ARE being active and pushing for change. Also, I understand that many of us have to work, so our time is limited. However, if the politicians will not do it, it is OUR Constitutional responsibility to change the status quo ourselves. Above all, be careful, try not to get arrested, and do not engage in violence. Your thoughts on this???

I think it's wonderful that so many people are letting off steam on these discussion boards but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, write a letter to your congresspersons, and a letter to the editor of every paper in your town and nearby large city! Right now!
We're preaching to the choir here!
We need to get this anger and disenchantment out to the masses, out to our government, out to those who are sitting on the fence!

Write them today!

RE: claudius July 25th, 2007 11:51 am

Good ideas, Claudius; it's better to be proactive than reactive. I suggested another way to 'take it to the enemy' (and although many of them are our neighbors if they support this administration they are anti-constitution, so may be viewed as enemies).

Rather than blogging to the 'choir' on liberal or progressive sites, where there is little dissent from a commonly held opinion on matters, doesn't it make more sense to go in numbers to right winged sites and express opinions many of them might never have even seen? Some people here might even get a bit of enjoyment or perverted pleasure out of it. Maybe I'm just a sick puppy, but rather than me crying in my beer I find amusement by pissing in theirs. LOL

In all seriousness we can complain all we want about the MSM being controlled by the right, but if we don't take full advantage of the internet as our communication & education source toward the opposition we are wasting our most valuable resource. The country, despite BushCo now standing naked to the truth, is not going to come enmasse over to our side immediately. Too many citizens have been completely & continuously propagandized, and of course there is a core element that will never change due to ignorance and/or financial bias, fear to change, or just outright pig-headedness. We must affect conversions one person at a time.

To blog on a right wing site you need certain things and you can expect others. One thing you need is references to back up any facts you claim to be true, and be assured the 'righties' will ask for proof (expect a cynical attitude & suspician regarding your sources). The other thing you can expect, since it is a trademark of the right, is a lot of abuse. The homily, "Violence is the last resort of the incompetant", certainly applies when you are creating a war on a right wing site through disputing what their members are ingrained to accept as truth. They will get pretty nasty & even vulgar, taking cues from their teacher Karl Rove, who has inculcated a philosophy of, "If you don't agree with the message slime/slay the messenger" in them.

If you have indisputable & verifiable facts, present your points in a reasonable & logical non-abrasive way, changing the political philosophy of a person is not impossible, though difficult. Ironically our greatest ally in effecting this change is the BushCo regime itself. Many Americans might be ignorant of different facts, but ignorance is not the same as stupidity, and quite a number have seen support of BushCo is against their better interests and their families'.

One site I have been working on is politico.com, but if you go there, unlike a mostly pleasant demeanor among posters on this site, expect some abuse from the staunch 'righties'. Some of them, like the dinosaurs they are, just don't yet realize the extinction causing meteor/asteroid has already landed.

Trust me, whoever you are, Sheehan won't be a laughable joke.

I don't think we have to worry about throwing the baby out with the bath water. We just vote in some Greens, and/or other viable independents, then more and more of them. So we have some actual representation. And vote out those who are frauds, whoever they are. And fight for real, fair elections tooth and nail.

It seems to me that too many people writing in are as shrill and irrational as Sean Hannity and his right wing nut jobs. And worse, they confirm the rights suspicions regarding the left.

I am against communism as much as I am against facism as forms of economic systems. T.R., F.D.R., and L.B.J. got it right when they reigned in the abuses of unrestrained capitalism throught the tools of Anti Trust laws and various workers rights, social security, and medicare. The road to the right combination of private enterprise and workers rights and environmental concerns, (furthered under R.M.N.) led to our becomming the greatest country in the world.

I wish I could read more concern for our country coming from writers here. The vitriol towards our country and the leaders that we have elected when they don't do exactly what they want them to do when they want them to do it disgusts me.

Polosi, Conyers, Feingold, et el are good people and excellent statesmen. They know the dangers to this country better than we do, as well as te political realities facing them. They are doing the best to retify the situation this nincompoop from Texas has gotten us into.

Americans social programs did not stem from Democratic origins, they stemmed from blue blood Conneticut Yankee industrialist and Protewtant chrches they belonged too beginning in the 1860's through 1880s.
When it ocmes to work force it was all of the Democrats and Republicans the unions had to fight agasinst and it was not so much Americans per se but immigrant labor who moved unions along.
To this day Democrats and Republicans have held back social programs for the workers until today even the much vaunted AFL/CIo is being used to cause turmoil in Latin American nations in faover of US coporate interest and now they are complaining about Iranian oil workers and they funneldd the money to the Iranian unions to cause dissent there.
Our working people in the main are so far behind the benefit packages of othere Industrial Societys is it a crime.
A MC Donalds worker in France has a higher standard of living than does a 15 to 20 dollar an hour worker here in states wqhen th4 benfits to him from his governemtn are figured in.
benefgfits such as maternity leave with pay for either spouse, Gov paid pensions and occupatyional schooling if occupation has either ended or nation faces a shortage of skills in one field, help with child nutrition, vacation times , hours worked and a few others.
There is no hope and I am sick and tired of this good people with good intentions bull crap coming down as an excuse every time they, the Democrats, fail.

What their success do is have the lowest paid citizen fund their own healthcare or soil , air and water cleanups by their social programs for thosee who don't or can't work or are the cause of the degradations.
Today we have worlds largest charity industry in dollars that does more to support the people working in them than the people they are supposed to help, paid volunteers in charity fields such as NGO's and the Red Cross, that are used more by our military to spy upon and cause disruptions overseas, than gains to the popualce.
There are ten Democrats with economic ties to Iraq war profiteering, From Pelosi and even Boxer and many more whose portfoilos contain such holdings as Haliburton, Bechtel Lockheed and energy Corps.
A democratic party that marches lock step in line with the Republicans when it comes to Issues dealing with Israel and their influence in American politics.
Too long have the Americans put up with incompetent do gooders and feely touchy lies from Democratic side of politics and to only find ourselves and country in the most dire streights both financially and loss of liberty in our history.
The democrats buy your votes with charity funding when the reason you need charity is because they voted along with their campaign funded groupies and contemporaries on the other side of ailse for war and corproate protections.
The state industrial insurance programs did not come from democrats they came from Corps and buisness interest in order to defray cost of injured workers and same with Environmental programs as they taxed the workers to pay for the cleanups letting industry out on the cheap and called it progressive.
They have progressed your children inot 15th place in rate of child birth deaths, growing incidents of children born with asthma and Autism, around 8th in intelligence and not just in sciences and math but in the humanitys as well.
While today we ahve tree huggers whaoe savers enviro freaks caling for grrowing of corn it is the Corporate side who gains in every envirom movement they sponsor while the environment may look prtettier today it is a lot more dedly because of all the unseen dangers they let pass for their campaign sponsors.
Like one respondent wrote at least with a bunch of bush and cronies at the helm you know they are just looking out for themselves and it is not just Bush who tells the lies today both sides have been years and the number of lies have been there all along.
In education they let your children get governemtn loans so they can be trained to work for corporations, not educated, and then they owe the loaqns as part of their salarys for years and then vote through an 80 billion dollar education package that gives colleges 10% administrative fees bvut all the rest goes towards military and corproate research grants. Not one penny to any student not enrolled in those research projects, and hen coprs get to sell the products.
they pass a bill to help minoritys and who gets most of the funding from that bill, the bureaucrats and single white women single white women with children with the rest of drippings left for real minority students, and then we wonder why today there are more women in college and government fields than ever before.

If now is the time, let's make this the event.
Thanks for heads up, chlorocardium

Reserve some blocks of seats on AmTrak and let's have a Peace Train to DC.

http://www.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=S15_homepage

I've changed my mind.
I thought impeachment was a waste of time since the trial in the Senate is doomed to failure.
Now I'm thinking: why not?
Let's have an impeachment every day, first thing in the morning, and hold it down to an hour or so in length.
Just a quick reading of the charges, a quick vote, quick passage, and move on to other business.
The next day have the trial in the Senate: quick reading of the charges, quick vote, vote fails, move on.
Then all of you impeachment fans can stop raving about the cowardice and treachery of the Democrats and move on to something else.
Good idea, eh?

Hi PaulMagillSmith July 25th, 2007 5:15 am

RE: conscience July 24th, 2007 11:08 pm

"John Dean reminds us that IMPEACHMENT turns "Executive Privilege" into ashes"

***Thanks conscience, I hadn't considered that, but what about claims of "national security"? It seems Bush would argue that testifying about top secret material would open him up to charges of treason, and he could invoke the fifth. His loaded up court, of course, would back him up, and then we're back to square one. It's really a screwed up mess, isn't it?***

--------------------------------------

I guess we have to go back to John Dean on that.
On the other hand, IMO, most of the claims now of "Executive Privilege" wouldn't carry as far as National Security.

Democratic Underground is the original source for that quote and there are discussions there --

Also http://www.tpmmuckraker.com
and also FINDLAW . . . where I think John Dean has some connections? are also good places for legal Q&A on current events

PS: I also gave a lengthy reply to WHY there is no place to turn vs Democrats -- and basically, that's it -- there's no place to go.

If we want to be able to have somewhere to go we need to overturn 3rd party rules put in place by Dems/Reps/Corporations to block such ourageous ideas -- and we have to have IRV voting.