huckleberry,

Nothing implied, my friend. As you mentioned it is hard to discern who are the spies among us. I am sorry to provoke your ire, but I just wanted to be sure to cover myself. I never know when two FBI agents will visit my house (not to sounds paranoid). I was trying to cover myself. I am happy to hear you are involved in several activities to help combat this nonsense. Peace, brother. Keep up the good work.

best,
claudius

An old Ad man who was giving a seminar at one of many employers I have had said the secret of selling your goods is to make your customer believe they have to have it and for an examle he used the TV Remote TV channel changer.
It was not a necessity the TV could still be manually operated but in getting the customer to want one you then made more money on your first item the TV and then on the remote.
If your markup on the parts and asembly of the TV were 25% and you had to add a sensor within it you marked it up 25% and of course the remote was marked up the same.
the auto industry when the enviros said we need to cut emissins, the first few years the autos wee cleaner and gas mileage went downhill but the custoemer paid more for clean, then more for repairble bumpers, seat belts, and then computerized equipment and today we have autos with fair milage weigh less than half older auots made with cheaper plastics and cost 3 to 5 times more than in 1971 and even an engineer has to walk away when his auto won't start and call a repairman to fix it. We have gone through multiple changes in gasoline miztures by ading mroe chemicals that used to have to be dumped in Hazardous waste sights and polluted the ground air and water worse than we did with lead.
Now the energy companys have got us thinking we need corn in order to survive and the enviros are all over this as the second coming of Jesus on a corn powered Chariot, but in truth as usual the taxpeyers are paying for the infrastucture, are now going to have to buy real sugar as the sweet syrup will now run your engine, replace all the existing gas pumps, fuel lines, and as alcohol is 30% less effecient than gasoline we will burn more per mile, the pollutants such as formaldahyde and others along with creating an ozone layer especilly in heavyy traffic snarles that could reech 4' high. It takes huge amounts of fertilizers and water to grow corn, and at the latest technology shows to get the energy of one gallon of fuel you will need to buy 30% more of ethanol 85% mix, and for every energy equivelent to todays gasoline you will use 60% of that amount of enrgy from natural gas to produce the corn fuel.
Now who owns the natual gas, the stations that will be pumping the new blends, and who is going to pay in tax subsidys the 110% of development cost those firms and farmers will get plus the extra amount paid out for the corn and the cost of one galon of 85% less energy will still sell for at least 25% more than gasoline only blends.
Then to the farmers who will have to sell to highest money makers will then not have corn syrup, cattle dog cat pig,chicken and yes the yuppy LLama feed corn for sale causing each and everyone of above to climb in price.
That the seeds for the corn, Archer Midalnd and Monsanto will be reimbursd for new equipment to reach the increased demand and farmer will have no recourse but each year to buy the genticly modified seeds.
How can a people ever be free from corruption when they are told what they need and not know a damn thing except what the ad men tell them.
It is the same with many social programs, wAr on Poverty over 90% of all federal funds went into administrative cost, savings and loans, banking interest land speculators and land dealings where a city or feds bought the land from speculatoer and then developer was given the land and paid to build upon it by tapayer funding. then to top it off with no maintenance cost figured in for all the public built housing so the builders let them run down, the citys would not fix or police them.
The land with buildings got sold for less than pennys on the dollar to another developer who built condos, corporate headquartters or leased to goverment entitys.
The Ad men have ben selling the people a load of goods for many years now and when ticame time to make up a war they were hired to do so and they di a darn fine job of it.
Until you take that remote sensor out of your minds the people pushing buttons will continue to have you by a much lower body area

To the Bush administration:

You have sat here far too long for any good that you may have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!

--- with apologies to Oliver Cromwell and Leo Amery

What happened to observer's post? He reported that a group of lawyers visited Representative Olvers office to request that he upport impeachment efforts. Observer reports that the congressman, a Democrat, refused saying that Iran will soon be attacked and martial law will be declared.

Does observer have any verified facts to support this meeting?

Claudius; Of course we are contemplating legal political action. I would love to take the law into my own hands like some vigilante super hero, but I intend to stay within the law.

Regarding traps, I am not sure what you are suggesting. I am already involved in several peacemaking entities, where the position I have advocated is to be completely fearless of infiltrators, snitches and agents provocateur. I am certain they are among us, perhaps even on this page. Nothing we are doing is immoral or illegal. We are simply engaging in the political process. And I for one do not intend to be diverted by hotheads.

Regarding enemies, again I'm not sure what was communicated, but I was writing (albeit vaguely) about the skinheads and klansmen which have overrun my neck of the woods. They have been infiltrating churches, businesses, law enforcement, and local government. They seem to be so well organized that I assumed they and other "tribes" are taking positions on your local chessboard too.

TO NAYSAYERS AND ACTIVIST BURNOUTS: I've been there, I end up there pretty regularly. I too am skeptical that we can actually accomplish more than infighting. But I am CERTAIN that DIVIDED WE FALL. If we do not begin connecting in the real world, if we do not strengthen existing connections, if we do not FORCE change, who will? We are the few who are engaged and on top of these events. Are we going to continue gazing at this screen like a deer in headlights?

Peace

Out

The Green Party is great and I agree with all of their principles. However, I also remember that 90,000 Floridians voting Green for Ralph Nader gave us George W Bush instead of Al Gore.

Please people don't bash the democrats and please whatever you do don't stop voting just because your discouraged and disgusted over Conyers and Pelosi's refusal to impeach Cheney.
I am as disheartened as you are but we need to stop and think here for a minute .
Who gains if we don't vote ?Who gains when we turn on the Democrat's ? The Republican's that's who !
For all we know maybe they were the ones behind all this anger that is now directed towards the Democrats so they would have a clear road to the white house.
The judicial system that Bush appointed would try to squash any impeachment !

Think people ! Who brought up this bill to impeach Cheney in the first place ? Kucinich !
So why aren't you pushing others to vote for him ?
As far as I know he has no agenda and isn't in the lobbiests back packet.
He seems to understand the American peoples needs and is willing to push for the change we want in our government and he could just hold Bush and Co accountable for their crimes if he were elected .
So maybe he is not charasmatic as some of the other candidates but he is real and I would go as far to say honest .
Hillary is too far to the right there would be no change there she is in too tight with big corporations that have influence in our government right now as with most of the other candidates ,,Edwards might be for change but for my money Kucinich is the real deal.

That is if we have an election in 2008 ,,my gut tells me that Bush who is not only drunk on whiskey but also on power just might use the war as an excuse to stop the election or come up with another 9/11 incident and use that as his excuse to stay in office.
If he does we had better be ready to do more than chatter !

Its time for Americans to dump the democratic party and Join the
Green Party. http://www.gp.org The Green Party is the Party of Peace!

Our 10 KEY VALUES:

Grassroots Democracy

Every human being deserves a say in the decisions that affect their lives; no one should be subject to the will of another. Therefore we will work to increase public participation at every level of government and to ensure that our public representatives are fully accountable to the people who elect them. We will also work to create new types of political organizations that expand the process of participatory democracy by directly including citizens in the decision-making process.

Ecological Wisdom

Human societies must operate with the understanding that we are part of nature, not separate from nature. We must maintain an ecological balance and live within the ecological and resource limits of our communities and our planet. We support a sustainable society that utilizes resources in such a way that future generations will benefit and not suffer from the practices of our generation. To this end we must have agricultural practices that replenish the soil; move to an energy efficient economy; and live in ways that respect the integrity of natural systems.

Social Justice and Equal Opportunity

All persons should have the rights and opportunity to benefit equally from the resources afforded us by society and the environment. We must consciously confront in ourselves, our organizations, and society at large, barriers such as racism and class oppression, sexism and heterosexism, ageism and disability, which act to deny fair treatment and equal justice under the law.

Nonviolence

It is essential that we develop effective alternatives to our current patterns of violence at all levels, from the family and the streets, to nations and the world. We will work to demilitarize our society and eliminate weapons of mass destruction, without being naive about the intentions of other governments. We recognize the need for self-defense and the defense of others who are in helpless situations. We promote nonviolent methods to oppose practices and policies with which we disagree, and will guide our actions toward lasting personal, community and global peace.

Decentralization

Centralization of wealth and power contributes to social and economic injustice, environmental destruction, and militarization. Therefore, we support a restructuring of social, political and economic institutions away from a system that is controlled by and mostly benefits the powerful few, to a democratic, less bureaucratic system. Decision-making should, as much as possible, remain at the individual and local level, while assuring that civil rights are protected for all citizens.

Community Based Economics

We recognize it is essential to create a vibrant and sustainable economic system, one that can create jobs and provide a decent standard of living, for all people, while maintaining a healthy ecological balance. A successful economic system will offer meaningful work with dignity, while paying a "living wage" which reflects the real value of a person's work. Local communities must look to economic development that assures protection of the environment and workers' rights, broad citizen participation in planning, and enhancement of our "quality of life". We support independently owned and operated companies which are socially responsible, as well as co-operatives and public enterprises that spread out resources and control to more people through democratic participation.

Feminism

We have inherited a social system based on male domination of politics and economics. We call for the replacement of the cultural ethics of domination and control, with more cooperative ways of interacting which respect differences of opinion and gender. Human values such as equity between the -sexes, interpersonal responsibility, and honesty must be developed with moral conscience. We should remember that the process that determines our decisions and actions is just as important as achieving the outcome we want.

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We believe it is important to value cultural, ethnic, racial, sexual, religious and spiritual diversity, and to promote the development of respectful relationships across these lines. We believe the many diverse elements of society should be reflected in our organizations and decision-making bodies, and we support the leadership of people who have been traditionally closed out of leadership roles. We acknowledge and encourage respect for other life forms and the preservation of biodiversity.

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We encourage individuals to act to improve their personal well being and, at the same time, to enhance ecological balance and social harmony. We seek to join with people and organizations around the world to foster peace, economic justice, and the health of the planet.

Future Focus and Sustainability

Our actions and policies should be motivated by long-term goals. We seek to protect valuable natural resources, safely disposing of or "unmaking" all waste we create, while developing a sustainable economics that does not depend on continual expansion for survival. We must counter-balance the drive for short-term profits by assuring that economic development, new technologies, and fiscal policies are responsible to future generations who will inherit the results of our actions. Our overall goal is not merely to survive, but to share lives that are truly worth living. We believe the quality of our individual lives is enriched by the quality of all of our lives. We encourage everyone to see the dignity and intrinsic worth in all of life, and to take the time to understand and appreciate themselves, their community and the magnificent beauty of this world.

This is such a good example of the progressive community finding ways to shoot ourselves in the foot. (feet?) The Democratic party itself has made such self-destructive impulses an art form. John Conyers betraying us? John Conyers unprincipled? Anyone who knows anything about him and his courageous career could never have made such absurd statements. Do we really want/need to attack our best friends if they dare to perceive a political reality differently than we do? There are enough "enemies" out there. Let's not create them where they are not.

Conyers and the controlling Congress were elected to impeach. They have not and I will vote against them and most certainly will not vote for Hillary Clinton. The Democrats have lied to us. So, reluctantly, I will vote a straight Republican ticket in 2008. These Democratic representatives have destroyed the party and it can go to hell as far as I am concerned. I am a former dismayed Democrat.

Huckleberry,

Also thanks for the heads up about the enemies in every neighborhood. That was an important clue. Should this be a trap, my disclaimer is above, and the movement can be dissolved at any time. I suspect you are on the good side, but in case you are not, we are well within the law, if we even get this movement started.

huckleberry,

I should add that whatever we do will be non-violent and law abiding, yet effective.

huckleberry,

We can. I would like to hear from more of the posters so we can get this movement off the ground. So far, I have only heard from you and Paul Magill. So, I am not sure if people just want to continue to vent on these messageboards, or if we actually can get organized and begin crafting this movement and start making concrete plans and goals. In addition to the team ideas I posted, I envision having several teams with specific tasks, and once we have amassed and organized the information, the movement can build. At a further point, we can join forces with other grassroots organizations. But, we all need to be on the same page the entire time. It just seems to me that the politicians will move at a slower pace than bananaslugs, and we are running out of time. I will be happy to coordinate this, if others are willing to join.

To be fair - the arrest of Sheehan & entourage was a bit of a publicity stunt. She announced beforehand that they would stage a sit in if they didn't get what they wanted.

I think it got them both what they wanted - a little more coverage.

Both she and Conyers got airtime out of it, so hopefully it pays off.

Captain CLAUDIUS: I think you are on the right track. If there is anything we should be good at by now it is organization. (sadly this seems not to be the case) I am with you. And I would "march" along side most of the posters in this forum. However, the "stop the war or I'll wave a sign at you" effort is wearisome. Can we abandon activism and actually take action?

Thee is no where to turn so or anyone to turn to so just shut up and do nothing but play the games and screw everyone else.
People are sayig they are all politcos and maybe in the next election but no one is mentioning that whomever gets in the seat of power will have all the powers of that office Bush presently has.
All plus more because as effects of those Presidential writings and justice department rulings begin to be enforced the true nature of the system will come forth.
Where as today we have over 500,000 on the no fly list more names will be added and more uses of Judges for politcal means will take place. The Homeland and Patriot Act are already beng used to suveil people for purely politcal reasons, even their own for that matter and they do have some power, so what can an ordinary citizen do but keep his mouth shut and always agree witth ther politcal cause of the moment.
Those who say don't impeach are as guilty and corrupt as if they themselves commited the actual crime.
When the President or any elected member commits an impeachable offense it says Congress must impeach and by all the limp wristed Democrat supporters who turned a Republic into a National Socialist, Fascist police state thanks a lot.
They wanted a Constitution of Convenience and they got one, they loved to play with specvial interest legislation and now find they are of no interest to our leaders and from now on we must wait until our they find it convenient to remember the public.
Many of us will survie no matter the form of government because we did not need it to begin with and have had to find aways around it most of our lives.
Unlike the bureaucracy tho we do not have to work for the Fascist but don't worry there will be no DE- Bathification here because they will not miss a beat in doing their, the job they are paid for.

And tell me is anyone surprised?

I sure hope not at his late date.

Bought and paid for.

FINALLY . . . Just want to add that I'm not ready to say that John Conyers is evil --
or that Pelosi is evil --

We do know that the people in the White House are evil --

As for "investments" -- well, Rep. Hastert was evidently taking envelopes of cash from drug dealers/Turkey -- !!!
No one knew about this????

The Bush family was invested in the Carlyle group as we attacked Iraq --

I think it's a good question to put before Democrats and Republicans that they make known if they are in any way profiting from these wars.

I'm all for that -- !!!

**********************************

Hi PaulMagillSmith July 25th, 2007 5:15 am

RE: conscience July 24th, 2007 11:08 pm

"John Dean reminds us that IMPEACHMENT turns "Executive Privilege" into ashes"

***Thanks conscience, I hadn't considered that, but what about claims of "national security"? It seems Bush would argue that testifying about top secret material would open him up to charges of treason, and he could invoke the fifth. His loaded up court, of course, would back him up, and then we're back to square one. It's really a screwed up mess, isn't it?***

--------------------------------------

I guess we have to go back to John Dean on that.
On the other hand, IMO, most of the claims now of "Executive Privilege" wouldn't carry as far as National Security.

Democratic Underground is the original source for that quote and there are discussions there --

Also http://www.tpmmuckraker.com
and also FINDLAW . . . where I think John Dean has some connections? are also good places for legal Q&A on current events

PS: I also gave a lengthy reply to WHY there is no place to turn vs Democrats -- and basically, that's it -- there's no place to go.

If we want to be able to have somewhere to go we need to overturn 3rd party rules put in place by Dems/Reps/Corporations to block such ourageous ideas -- and we have to have IRV voting.

I've changed my mind.
I thought impeachment was a waste of time since the trial in the Senate is doomed to failure.
Now I'm thinking: why not?
Let's have an impeachment every day, first thing in the morning, and hold it down to an hour or so in length.
Just a quick reading of the charges, a quick vote, quick passage, and move on to other business.
The next day have the trial in the Senate: quick reading of the charges, quick vote, vote fails, move on.
Then all of you impeachment fans can stop raving about the cowardice and treachery of the Democrats and move on to something else.
Good idea, eh?

If now is the time, let's make this the event.
Thanks for heads up, chlorocardium

Reserve some blocks of seats on AmTrak and let's have a Peace Train to DC.

http://www.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=S15_homepage

Americans social programs did not stem from Democratic origins, they stemmed from blue blood Conneticut Yankee industrialist and Protewtant chrches they belonged too beginning in the 1860's through 1880s.
When it ocmes to work force it was all of the Democrats and Republicans the unions had to fight agasinst and it was not so much Americans per se but immigrant labor who moved unions along.
To this day Democrats and Republicans have held back social programs for the workers until today even the much vaunted AFL/CIo is being used to cause turmoil in Latin American nations in faover of US coporate interest and now they are complaining about Iranian oil workers and they funneldd the money to the Iranian unions to cause dissent there.
Our working people in the main are so far behind the benefit packages of othere Industrial Societys is it a crime.
A MC Donalds worker in France has a higher standard of living than does a 15 to 20 dollar an hour worker here in states wqhen th4 benfits to him from his governemtn are figured in.
benefgfits such as maternity leave with pay for either spouse, Gov paid pensions and occupatyional schooling if occupation has either ended or nation faces a shortage of skills in one field, help with child nutrition, vacation times , hours worked and a few others.
There is no hope and I am sick and tired of this good people with good intentions bull crap coming down as an excuse every time they, the Democrats, fail.

What their success do is have the lowest paid citizen fund their own healthcare or soil , air and water cleanups by their social programs for thosee who don't or can't work or are the cause of the degradations.
Today we have worlds largest charity industry in dollars that does more to support the people working in them than the people they are supposed to help, paid volunteers in charity fields such as NGO's and the Red Cross, that are used more by our military to spy upon and cause disruptions overseas, than gains to the popualce.
There are ten Democrats with economic ties to Iraq war profiteering, From Pelosi and even Boxer and many more whose portfoilos contain such holdings as Haliburton, Bechtel Lockheed and energy Corps.
A democratic party that marches lock step in line with the Republicans when it comes to Issues dealing with Israel and their influence in American politics.
Too long have the Americans put up with incompetent do gooders and feely touchy lies from Democratic side of politics and to only find ourselves and country in the most dire streights both financially and loss of liberty in our history.
The democrats buy your votes with charity funding when the reason you need charity is because they voted along with their campaign funded groupies and contemporaries on the other side of ailse for war and corproate protections.
The state industrial insurance programs did not come from democrats they came from Corps and buisness interest in order to defray cost of injured workers and same with Environmental programs as they taxed the workers to pay for the cleanups letting industry out on the cheap and called it progressive.
They have progressed your children inot 15th place in rate of child birth deaths, growing incidents of children born with asthma and Autism, around 8th in intelligence and not just in sciences and math but in the humanitys as well.
While today we ahve tree huggers whaoe savers enviro freaks caling for grrowing of corn it is the Corporate side who gains in every envirom movement they sponsor while the environment may look prtettier today it is a lot more dedly because of all the unseen dangers they let pass for their campaign sponsors.
Like one respondent wrote at least with a bunch of bush and cronies at the helm you know they are just looking out for themselves and it is not just Bush who tells the lies today both sides have been years and the number of lies have been there all along.
In education they let your children get governemtn loans so they can be trained to work for corporations, not educated, and then they owe the loaqns as part of their salarys for years and then vote through an 80 billion dollar education package that gives colleges 10% administrative fees bvut all the rest goes towards military and corproate research grants. Not one penny to any student not enrolled in those research projects, and hen coprs get to sell the products.
they pass a bill to help minoritys and who gets most of the funding from that bill, the bureaucrats and single white women single white women with children with the rest of drippings left for real minority students, and then we wonder why today there are more women in college and government fields than ever before.

It seems to me that too many people writing in are as shrill and irrational as Sean Hannity and his right wing nut jobs. And worse, they confirm the rights suspicions regarding the left.

I am against communism as much as I am against facism as forms of economic systems. T.R., F.D.R., and L.B.J. got it right when they reigned in the abuses of unrestrained capitalism throught the tools of Anti Trust laws and various workers rights, social security, and medicare. The road to the right combination of private enterprise and workers rights and environmental concerns, (furthered under R.M.N.) led to our becomming the greatest country in the world.

I wish I could read more concern for our country coming from writers here. The vitriol towards our country and the leaders that we have elected when they don't do exactly what they want them to do when they want them to do it disgusts me.

Polosi, Conyers, Feingold, et el are good people and excellent statesmen. They know the dangers to this country better than we do, as well as te political realities facing them. They are doing the best to retify the situation this nincompoop from Texas has gotten us into.

I don't think we have to worry about throwing the baby out with the bath water. We just vote in some Greens, and/or other viable independents, then more and more of them. So we have some actual representation. And vote out those who are frauds, whoever they are. And fight for real, fair elections tooth and nail.

Trust me, whoever you are, Sheehan won't be a laughable joke.

RE: claudius July 25th, 2007 11:51 am

Good ideas, Claudius; it's better to be proactive than reactive. I suggested another way to 'take it to the enemy' (and although many of them are our neighbors if they support this administration they are anti-constitution, so may be viewed as enemies).

Rather than blogging to the 'choir' on liberal or progressive sites, where there is little dissent from a commonly held opinion on matters, doesn't it make more sense to go in numbers to right winged sites and express opinions many of them might never have even seen? Some people here might even get a bit of enjoyment or perverted pleasure out of it. Maybe I'm just a sick puppy, but rather than me crying in my beer I find amusement by pissing in theirs. LOL

In all seriousness we can complain all we want about the MSM being controlled by the right, but if we don't take full advantage of the internet as our communication & education source toward the opposition we are wasting our most valuable resource. The country, despite BushCo now standing naked to the truth, is not going to come enmasse over to our side immediately. Too many citizens have been completely & continuously propagandized, and of course there is a core element that will never change due to ignorance and/or financial bias, fear to change, or just outright pig-headedness. We must affect conversions one person at a time.

To blog on a right wing site you need certain things and you can expect others. One thing you need is references to back up any facts you claim to be true, and be assured the 'righties' will ask for proof (expect a cynical attitude & suspician regarding your sources). The other thing you can expect, since it is a trademark of the right, is a lot of abuse. The homily, "Violence is the last resort of the incompetant", certainly applies when you are creating a war on a right wing site through disputing what their members are ingrained to accept as truth. They will get pretty nasty & even vulgar, taking cues from their teacher Karl Rove, who has inculcated a philosophy of, "If you don't agree with the message slime/slay the messenger" in them.

If you have indisputable & verifiable facts, present your points in a reasonable & logical non-abrasive way, changing the political philosophy of a person is not impossible, though difficult. Ironically our greatest ally in effecting this change is the BushCo regime itself. Many Americans might be ignorant of different facts, but ignorance is not the same as stupidity, and quite a number have seen support of BushCo is against their better interests and their families'.

One site I have been working on is politico.com, but if you go there, unlike a mostly pleasant demeanor among posters on this site, expect some abuse from the staunch 'righties'. Some of them, like the dinosaurs they are, just don't yet realize the extinction causing meteor/asteroid has already landed.

I think it's wonderful that so many people are letting off steam on these discussion boards but PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, write a letter to your congresspersons, and a letter to the editor of every paper in your town and nearby large city! Right now!
We're preaching to the choir here!
We need to get this anger and disenchantment out to the masses, out to our government, out to those who are sitting on the fence!

Write them today!

I have been keeping up with the posts and I realized there are two things we can do. One is to keep posting our anger, frustration, knowledge on these message boards, which is fine. But after looking at all the perspectives here, this idea occured to me, and please feel free to comment or make suggestions. I was thinking that here are all of these intelligent people expressing their political views. The vast majority of us appear to be on the same page where we would like to see some sort of action take place to stop this dangerous Presidential Administration from doing more damage. Then I thought, if I was a grassroots organizer and all of these people are posting their frustration, outrage, views, how could I organize them so that we could have a greater impact instead of sitting in front of a computer doing what we are doing. What if we broke into small teams, and each team has a responsibility. For example, the naysayers who think it all is coming to an end should get out among the public, and hype the gloomy picture and hook it on the Republicans to ensure that people do not vote for the Republican Party hopefully for decades. Those of us who are for the Democrats, work closely with them and encourage them to keep moving forward with legislation to change the status quo instead ( I am not for the Democrats, but it is the lesser of two evils here). Those of us who refuse to go along with the Democrats ought to work tirelessly at pushing for reform in various capacities. Someone among us needs to stay on top of the schedule for protests in various cities and be sure to inform the public where and when they will take place. For those of us who are more spiritual than others, go to the churches and inform people that if they really cared about society and its well-being, they would not support an Administration that puts corporate profiteering and protecting its buddies over the needs and safety of the American public.

Here is how this will work: each team will have a captain, and once a week, each team reports on its progress. Remember, even though this exercise might feel as if we are doing little or nothing, we actually ARE being active and pushing for change. Also, I understand that many of us have to work, so our time is limited. However, if the politicians will not do it, it is OUR Constitutional responsibility to change the status quo ourselves. Above all, be careful, try not to get arrested, and do not engage in violence. Your thoughts on this???

Republicans and Democrats..they are the same.Promises while doing campaigns but no political will and commitment when power is reached.A lot of noise on the Inmigration reform Bill, a lot of noise on the troops withdrawal issue but at the end nothing happens.Democrats of the 60's are missing and needed badly.

Commondreams seems to be doing quite a lot of screening. I posted information I received from Obama on impeachment yesterday and it was removed. What's going on? "People should not be afraid of their government" - V for Vendetta

Any person in the House can stand up and read Articles of impeachemnt and they have to be acted upon by the body.
It is just a beginning step and may get thrown out but it will still be on record that such Articles were began.
\the least the eaklings in US can do is have it part of this administrations Legacy be so noted that an attempt to bring them to trial was made.
It is not the damned honor of the elected we should give a damn about but the honor of the country.
Yes they may not have enough votes but damn it bring it out into open discussion and then see what reaction of Americans is.
It is not a one day affair and days of arguments would go on where Americans could watch and see the articles as they are presented and defended before a vote is even taken.
Just one and then demand the rule of law apply to that presentation.
Impeachemnt is not that hard to begin no matter what Pelosi and Conyers keep saying.
There are many routes to Legal introduction of procedures.
To of placed so much trust in Conyers in first place was a mistake and he was but the pawn to give appearances to soem Democrats taking action without any substance to back it.

laddy - I am not a blind man, so perhaps you can explain it to me. What are you talking about?

Cross posting here:
I am curious if it would be possible to file a law suit against John Conyers et al to force them to fulfill their constitutional duties?

Vote for a Democrat if you want the agony prolonged. Vote for Republican if you want a quick death as opposed to a long drwn out death. (death of democracy and freedom)
Take you're pick!

I am so sick and tired of the Democrats caving on us. They were elected on the premise that they agreed with the majority of the American people that we want to end the war in Iraq and more and more of us want impeachment proceeding to go forward against Bush and Cheney at the very least. Suddenly they are all wimping out with nonsense like "we have more important things to focus on" etc. NO WE DON'T..there is nothing more important than bringing this band of criminals to justice! They forget that the crimes of this administration deliberatly involved us in an illegal war..that itself is an impeachable offense. They've hijacked our country and are trying to dismantal the infrastructure..piece by piece and they are so bold and arrogant they don't care that we all know what they are doing. They are turning this country into a dictatorship (remember "it would be easier if this were a dictatorship but only if I was the dictator"?) and they're right.. our representatives and senators are all too cowed to do anything about it. It's sickening and they are all to be condemned and removed in the next election.. if we have a next election.

Evidently the author of this article has been bought by the Bush administration and the Republican Cultist Party. A blind man can see it.

Take back the media.

I just came back to NYC from Middle America and there the people are oblivious to what is happening in Washington. They don't know how much Bush and Cheney deserve to be impeached. Okay, some know -- but the vast majority seem to be in la-la land.

Take back the media so the people, all the people, well MOST of the people, will demand impeachment -- and get it.

Full agreement with too many posters to name.

Comment - Voting!!? Anyone putting faith in a POLITICAL solution is dangerously naive.

Established fact - Good, progressive people now have very dangerous enemies in positions of power, not only in the White house, but in every neighborhood.

Alert - If you are still unaware, THIS IS AN ECONOMIC WAR! It has been and now is being fought in every corner of the world. It is being won and lost with CASH.

Shop at Wal-mart or die.

And the suggestion that Democrats or their families are somehow threatened, rendering them useless--Cindy Sheehan takes that very real risk every day. If you can't take the heat--then bow out and allow someone who believes that it is the right and worthy thing to do for the Country. Now that is a true patriot.

Hope is not a strategy. Words don't pursuade liars. But, brute violence can.

Listen and read: The democratic system doesn't work anymore. Impeachment won't work. If you think you live in a fascist society, and we do - be an anti-fascist!!

Get off your ass, now, and when you can get away with it, go do some serious damage to anything that carries an international corporate logo, and that's just for starters.

How annoying. Just posted 2 comments and both disappeared off the face of the earth.

Spoke with a woman in Philly yesterday who was arrested along with Sheehan. She claimed Conyers responded along the lines of, "If you don't like it, vote them out to change it", and I thought about all the promises he made and now that he was in a position to change things he proves his unworthiness--after all, we voted HIM in. Democrats were complicit in enabling Bush--that is why they are reluctant now--see how Clinton et al attempt to evade the subject or portray themselves deceptively.
Mostly older activists in Philly.
Scary jack-booted thug Viet Nam vet motorcycle group there to harass Cindy. I recall them from the Abbie Hoffman memorial years back. Volatile bunch.

We are bewildered as to why Conyers and Pelosi are afraid to impeach only if we ignore the obvious.

Although playing it safe to keep their office sounds somewhat plausible, the real reason -- the only logical conclusion -- is the Democratic skeletons (everyone has some skeletons) dug up by the NSA spying, combined with the Wellstone effect, and of course the fact that most all members of congress quietly understand the true nature of the events of the fall of 2001, which means that yes, JC and NP are fully aware that Bush and Co will play the false flag card if they are cornered.

I can't remember if it was this article or the other where the waitress posted the fact that she, like JC and NP, is between a rock and a hard place because she can't tell the customer that the cook is an asshole because the cook has the power to make her life miserable, so she bites the bullet, but in any case I found that to be a perfect analogy.

So what to do? Spread the word and hope it reaches a critical mass before anything bad happens. It is scary to read the posts here about martial law scenarios -- not only scary for what life would be like, but scary to realize, knowing what a lot of us know about this administration, that it is not improbable. To think that these may be the good old days is sickening.

Wish I had something more positive to say. Can someone help here?

Test post makes it but other 2 posts disappeared?

C'mon.

Impeachment is off the table because the WhiteHouse has pictures of Pelosi and Conyers in criminal acts such as sexual misadvertures with children or animals.

Or the true owners of this country (the rich plutocrats) have told Pelosi and Conyers that their districts would suffer economic boycots which would cause their loss of office.

.

OSUgradstudent July 24th, 2007 10:03 pm
If Sheehan runs it will be a laughable joke.

You expose what you really stand for but since you're part of the Ohio strain I understand perfectly.

Spoke with a woman in Philly yesterday who was arrested along with Cindy. She said Conyers response was something along the lines of : "If you don't like it, vote them out", and I thought--Well, we voted you in and look what good you are considering the years you promised how things should be different--and now you're in a position to change it--and you are useless.

Interesting and a little volatile in Philly yesterday. Many older activists. Jewish folksinger singing bluedog Congressman Murphy's praises who claims to be for bringing the troops home until you read the small print, is banging the war drums on Iran, won't support closing Gitmo, voted against the fairness doctrine, advocates spending hugh sums to outfit small towns in the middle of PA against terrorist attacks, claims the NY reservoirs are primary cause of flooding--not over-development and climate change--although the reservoir argument has been disproven, BUT introduces bills condemning British universities for boycotting Israel--as was done in So. Africa effectively--champions the Zionist cause and rolls in big bucks....
Nasty looking jackbooted thug Viet Nam vet motorcycle group there to harrass Sheehan. I recall them from the Abbie Hoffman memorial years ago--bad news--prone to violence.

In all this anti-Democrtic Party, anti-Pelosi vitrioll I missed someting: are there the votes to impeach or not? It's a yes or no question.

RE: conscience July 24th, 2007 11:08 pm

"John Dean reminds us that IMPEACHMENT turns "Executive Privilege" into ashes"

***Thanks conscience, I hadn't considered that, but what about claims of "national security"? It seems Bush would argue that testifying about top secret material would open him up to charges of treason, and he could invoke the fifth. His loaded up court, of course, would back him up, and then we're back to square one. It's really a screwed up mess, isn't it?***

RE: jistis July 25th, 2007 2:13 am

I agree with you (about Conyers people-oriented credentials), and while I understand Cindy can 'pluck your last nerve' Conyers could have probably handled this situation a bit better, don't you think?

(2nd part)

Ok, so here's the other portion of the scenario (followed by the third). Just as legislation can be passed by one congress, it can be rescinded by another. The MCA of 2006 can be overturned in 2008-9, making all the crooks liable to prosecution for their crimes. The World Court has already labeled them as subject to being put in the dock for crimes against humanity. What better way is there to restore faith in American justice worldwide than showing that even our highest executive must obey the law, and if they don't the slow wheels of justice will grind them into the dust. Americans, on both sides of the aisle are proud of our country & legacy, suffer abuse to a limit, then act toward positive change. Impeachment must be a viable option on the table now.

Unfortunately, the scenario has a pretty nasty third part. With BushCo backed up to the wall a major attack on the lower 48 is not just a possibility, but a distinct probability. This is much more than the $2.3 Trillion in missing military materials made known a day before 9/11, that was overshadowed by the events of the next day. It's even more than the fact when WTC #7 'mysteriously' collapsed it took with it the records of hundreds of cases due to be taken to court of insider trading on the stock exchange.

No, this doesn't just threaten the financial interests of the big wigs who have been repeatedly & thoroughly screwing us; it puts their freedom, at risk, and possibly even their heads in a noose. BushCo knows this, and they have been quietly making preparations for the confrontation through Presidential Directives. The first was May 9, and the most recent was July 17 (curiously timed to be signed in the middle of Cindy Sheehan's march to DC to call for Bush & Cheney's impeachment proceedings to be initiated). They're trying to protect themselves in any way they can because they are nervous. Expect anything from them, including a 'false flag' attack (or attacks) within our borders. Then they will play the overused fear card, and according to the Presidential Directive of May 9 take over complete control of all branches of government. Anyone who raises hell & objects will be subject to the July 17 directive, which says they can take all the assets of anyone 'they' declare is in any way aiding the foes in Iraq (if you are forcefully opposing BushCo, in their warped thinking you are aiding the enemy).

An event will happen before the next election (Chertoff's 'gut' feeling was just to soften the public response toward acceptance), an emergency will be declared & martial law following that (and the May 9 directive lets Bush decide what constitutes an emergency & when it ends), then the elections will be cancelled (because they know they couldn't win anyway), dissidents (already stripped of their assets by the July 17 directive) will be rounded up (or ignored because they are broke), then off to the concentration camps rumors have it are built (ostensibly to house illegal aliens), voila!

This is why an effort for impeachment must be initiated NOW.***

)Due to length two posts)

RE:OSUgradstudent July 24th, 2007 6:10 pm

"Impeachment requires a simple majority in the House, and Democrats could EASILY impeach this president and vice president. But it would serve NO PURPOSE unless the Senate could convict Bush and Cheney, and thus remove them from office."

***While I agree with you it is an uphill fight, and possibly undoable, the fact remains the action itself is more than a 'statement'. It serves notice to this corrupt administration that the walls are closing in.

Ok, let's look at another scenario. Now the Bush administration thinks they have covered their asses by passing the legislation last year that gives them amnesty from prosecution; I believe it was an amendment to the MCA 2006 (Military Commissions Act). What a call for impeachment does is it puts our legislators in the position they must stand in public and declare their position. If they stand with this administration they stand against the overwhelming majority in the country, and face (if not certain) very likely ousting from office come 2008. The public is mad as hell right now, and becoming more & more aware of the shafting they have endured over the past six years (more like 25+ actually). Pretty much anyone who doesn't make a break from this corrupt administration RIGHT NOW knows his or her chances of re-election fade drastically despite what the English mangler known as Bush calls 'incumbentory advanitude'.

Sure, there are a number of states considered solid red, but they are fading quickly. This administration is running on three bald tires and an impending flat on the fourth. The house will go further blue and the senate also. Any Republican Senator that doesn't come on board NOW gets cast adrift, and they know this. It's political suicide to 'stay the course' with this administration.

HIPPY-Which election did Bu$h "LEGALLY" win?AND WHERE IS OSAMA bin LADIN?

How can we beat Karl Rove at his own game?

Conyers is a welfare junkie and if he gives peopel welfare issues then he is a nice guy but behind the scenes even the enhanced health bill made the Pharms and HMO's billions of dollars in pure profits.
A radical who let the government be dismantled by playing rob from the rich and give to the poor politico game.
The Democrat party has esxisted on welfare issues to their voters which puts their voters in the same position as a crooked congressman taking bribes from a pharm or agri corp and then says well it will mean jobs back home. Yup and someone else will pay for them.
While they were doing the social restructuring that made it possible for men like we have in power today to destroy the workings of government all the while watching thier own fortunes grow they now find out that it was all one long briber and the purse strings will now be closed unless they kill the welfare groupies resistance to the new Direction nation is headed.

John Conyers has been taking principled, courageous stands in the House for 43 years, from voting against the Gulf of Tonkin resolution to defending Haiti's democracy against the U.S.-sponsored coup d'etat to filing a bill for reparations for slavery every single year. He has been publicly talking about and working on impeachment of President Bush for longer than just about any other elected official.

Saying that a man with such an unsurpassed record of standing up for what is right "has betrayed the American people" and occupying his office because he is not yet moving forward on an impeachment bill with 13 co-sponsors almost defines myopic.

Thank you Medea Benjamin for lending some creability to what I have been blogging about on Conyers and his supposed stnads against Bush-n- Corp since last election. He sounded too good to be true andif you want mroe info on him look at his ameded speches in Record and compare them to hias actual vote, who pays his campaign funds and the increase of the amounts for last two years.
He is a phony held up by the Democrats to rally the more radical persons who want to impeach Bush and get brign power back tot he people.
No amount of or body of work by his staff has shown they realy care about inpeachment but they sure know who to hit up for funding and spend more time researching for other party members to add Conyers pork to home district.
Conyers actions in regards to Sheehans group shwos his true stripes once and for all. find someon to run against Conyers, we already have one against Pelosi.
Conyers is a consumate politco and has survied by kissing the butts and not having any real position of his own since he gained office.He is a good co-sponsor to the right bills by the right persons so that his home folk get steady diet of pork.

Ugh. Can we just call it like it is for a change?

Impeachment isn't going to happen, nor are we going to leave Iraq BECAUSE the Democrats think, probably correctly, that all they have to do is give Bush enough rope & he'll hang himself. Their logic is that the war is HORRIBLE PR for the Republican party, and so far they've been spot-on. As far as their concerned the worst thing that could happen would be Bush pulling out, blaming it on them, and having the whole country fault them for losing Iraq just like we did Vietnam.

What are we going to do about it? NOTHING. That's right, nothing, because we STILL know that calculating, spineless pricks are "marinally better" than lying, stealing, murderers.

We talk about POLITICIANS being all talk: there's idjits on here advocating not voting, the very barest minimum a US citizen can do to perform his civic duties. You won't vote, but we're supposed to believe you'll start some sort of revolution? Boy, you're FUNNY. Have some more Doritos - american Idol is on ina few minutes.

Bear in mind, this bozo in the white house has been lawfully elected at least once. That goes to show just how gullible we are as a nation.

Basis For Impeachment

Americans must blame themselves for the dreadful policies of Bush' team. After allowing them to steal two elections, we then stood by while the Senate defaulted their primary duties by allowing this theocratic (and unelected) president, to select unfit and dangerous people to key judgeships and other vital positions. Other unprecedented abuses that have proceeded unabated (or with token resistance) from congress include manipulation of science and facts to impede vital environmental reforms, impediment of investigations into 9/11, gross misinformation concerning the war and terrorism, character assassinations of those who oppose his policies (remember Senator Max Cleland, a triple Vietnam amputate who was branded unpatriotic and unseated for sponsoring an investigation into 9/11 which Bush opposed)--and the list goes on.

The gravity of abuses from this administration eclipse the Lewinsky scandal which led to an impeachment, and are more serious than the Watergate affair which brought down a presidency.

Karl Rove is pulling it off AGAIN. Ever read about his method of taking down political enemies? It's always much the same. He spreads destructive gossip through a number of sources. Divide up the votes and keep the Republicans in power. Do you really want that? REALLY? I would suspect that there are professional blog posters on the payroll of the RNC as well as the news and commentary writers. Rove has been doing this for many years. Stop being so darned gullible.

"It is shameful that Conyers and Pelosi are putting their perceived interests of their party above the Constitution, which clearly makes impeachment the remedy for dealing with presidential "high crimes and misdemeanors"."

It's time for people like Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul to run as Independents. They really need to remove themselves from the one-party system of misrepresentation and deceit.

"If we do not impeach President George W. Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, we establish that it is permissible for future presidents and vice presidents to deceive Congress and the public into futile wars, engage in widespread illegal spying on Americans, detain prisoners without charge, engage in torture, operate in secrecy and refuse to execute laws passed by Congress." -M.E. Marino

Are we supposed to believe that Democrats are going to repair the Constitution which George Bush has torn to shreds with his "unitary executive" theory and "signing statements"?

If you think that a Democratic President will defend and uphold the Constitution with a "unitary executive" theory in place, consider this:

"Those who seek or want to hold onto their existing power are not about to condemn the man (or his actions) who has done so much to extend its reach." -?

Excessive government secrecy on an unprecedented scale as we are experiencing today does nothing for the people; what it does do is increase and preserve "unconstitutional" governmental power while it covers up fraud and gross mismanagement of U.S. Foreign Policy along with our tax dollars.

Promises, promises, promises! We're tired of the rhetoric from both parties!

"As if anyone has time to read comment 103. Still, I want to stick up for Conyers. Medea Benjamin is a writer I always take time to read. But this time she doesn't give Conyers credit for all the good he's done. He led the investigation of election fraud in Ohio and published a book detailing it. He sponsored HR 676, enhanced medicare for all. He called Bush on the #10 Downing Street scandal. He has not betrayed America. He has a conscience. He and the other members of the Black Caucus, and Kucinich, Schakowsky, … not many. He seems to want to bypass impeachment and, instead, fuel the revolution."

The so-called "good" things Conyers has done will be washed away in the flood of consequences stemming from the subversion of the bush administration. This country has been destroyed. It lingers merely from the momentum of the old economy as it winds down. Impeachment is the Constitutional method of removing a despot from the White House. Revolution, military mutiny, and assassination are the other methods.

As if anyone has time to read comment 103. Still, I want to stick up for Conyers. Medea Benjamin is a writer I always take time to read. But this time she doesn't give Conyers credit for all the good he's done. He led the investigation of election fraud in Ohio and published a book detailing it. He sponsored HR 676, enhanced medicare for all. He called Bush on the #10 Downing Street scandal. He has not betrayed America. He has a conscience. He and the other members of the Black Caucus, and Kucinich, Schakowsky, ... not many. He seems to want to bypass impeachment and, instead, fuel the revolution.

ask Hilary about Mena

Presumably, MENA was part of Iran-Contra?
It's another reason why we have to end the phony drug war.
It's white gold and those at the top aren't going to ignore the profits -- never have.
Naturally, drug trafficing can't go on without the corruption of government officials -- not everyone -- just some -- and police enforcement.

Yesterday's exercise had some considerable value, in that it should put an end to Conyers' ability to work both sides of the street. By going out of his way to cause the arrest of impeachment advocates, Conyers defines himself as a Bush Administration supporter and the enemy of any effort to call that administration to account.

Put another way, the Democrats simply want the Bush presidency for THEMSELVES. They have not the slightest interest in keeping government within constitutional boundaries. As old Senator Aldrich of Rhode Island once put it, any professed motive but power and self-enrichment is simply "sentimental rot." A pity this confrontation didn't happen in early January instead of late July!

From other articles on the same subject, it would appear Conyers' tactic is a classic example of bait-and-switch. Last Fall, and to select audiences as late as this Spring; Conyers has PROMISED impeachment. He will do so no more!

Lacking constitutional provision for recall of the president, vice president and members of Congress; the only course for the antiwar, impeachment crowd would appear to be this: refusing to engage in or with this premature campaign for president--no money, no work, no attendance at meetings or rallies--UNTIL impeachment and our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are satisfactorily addressed.

This premature presidential campaign was always a diversion from war and accountability of present office holders--and it will be "off to the races" again with whomever is elected president. I've read of HRC telling her military briefers she expects US troops to still be in Iraq at the end of her administration (20 January 2009 through 20 January 2017)!

PS: We're still left with the question . . .
Is John Conyers betraying us by denying us impeachment of Bush? Is Nancy Pelosi betraying us?
Or do they both see this as strategy???

Coupled with the foot dragging of Sen. Harry Reid and the refunding of the war . . . I don't like the odds that they don't quite have the same concerns that we have!

foamweapons --

[like your name]

QUOTE: . . .
That's why I think the best way to promote change is vote in the primaries as a Democrat to get rid of people like Lieberman, Pelosi, Clinton etc… THEN if we fail to get someone similar to Kucinich to replace them, vote Nader or Green. QUOTE

Voting Green I don't think will make any immediate change at the presidential level. And could put us back in the hands of Republicans -- maybe a Jeb Bush -- ???
Newt Gingrich? Maybe a Swartzenegger? It can help a great deal with local and State offices -- there are a lot of wins. That's my opinion.

Nader has outlined that primaries take the decision about who a party is running out of the hands of the party.
It's rigged -- and with computers, now more than ever.
The smoked-rooms were evidently the safer places for these decisions.

Kucinich is the least worrisome of the Democrats --
I also like Edwards --
I'd like to see a female president . . .
but I'm not looking forward to voting for Hillary.

seems only Kucinich is the answer for candidates
impeach and hang the rest
give to me for fish bait
ask Hilary about Mena
someone please

"DUMP THE DEMOCRATS!
UNITE INTO A NEW THIRD PARTY NOW!"

I believe the system is rigged to destroy third parties. The structure of the system makes it impossible to unite behind a new party. Read:
http://sociology.ucsc.edu/whorulesamerica/change/science_egalitarians.html

That's why I think the best way to promote change is vote in the primaries as a Democrat to get rid of people like Lieberman, Pelosi, Clinton etc... THEN if we fail to get someone similar to Kucinich to replace them, vote Nader or Green.

Democrat is just a label. Registering Democrat or Republican isn't a sell-out. What scares them the most is taking over their idea of what a Democrat or Republican is, replacing Clinton with Kucinich or Guiliani with Ron Paul.

SO FEW PEOPLE VOTE IN PRIMARIES. We could throw these people out if we got organized. Seriously. Not voting in the primaries is worse than not voting in the general election because that's the place where the most change can occur. Once the election comes around it's already narrowed down to corporate candidate #1 VS. corporate candidate #2. Let's change that in 2008!

VOTE IN THE PRIMARIES!

I haven't actually read every post completely . . .
but just want to say that everything I know about politics I learned first from Ralph Nader --
Nonetheless, I think even he is shocked at the speed with which fascism has crossed our threshold in America.

When I first awakened in 1988, I hit the library to check my own life philosophies first and to find some truthful history. Most of that rested in the FDR era where we have some pretty frank discussions about labor and corporations. They did try, of course, to kill FDR -- the corporates that is: Dupont, and a bunch of them. It was investigated by the USHR.

I tried immediately to work with the Democrats -- they will let you work your head off -- but it takes money to move within the party; you quickly see this and it's not pretty. Many, many honest people are drawn to the party, working for it during campaigns, etc. After elections; usually nothing happens. I worked for Jerry Brown/was a delegate for him from my area -- and for a short time his campaign had a liberal impact on the party and the nation. For a short time.

I worked with the Greens where there is a wide open field for citizens to pursue office. Excellent platform. And I did run for office for them. Very interesting. I got a lot of votes/didn't win. Many, many honest and hard working citizens have come to the Green Party.

It got really exciting when Ralph Nader ran for president with the Greens -- fantastic platform. I didn't end up voting for him because my children were so concerned that Bush would win. The "Swiftboating" of Nader after that by Democrats evidently frightened the international Green Party so much that they didn't support his coming on board again for the 2004 election. That really shocked me.
And, behind that decision it became obvious that the Green Party had been co-opted by Democrats who were making Green Party decisions and barring Nader. Both parties -- Dems and Repubs -- have erected so many barriers to third parties that it's a wonder that any of them last even a few years. We have to have IRV -- Instant Runoff Voting as other nations have.

Of course, the 2000 election was stolen as the 2004 election and 2002 elections seem to have been stolen.
Nonetheless, it is difficult for the public to give up the feeling that Nader had something to do with the loss.
My feeling is that Nader voters were intelligent and where they felt that it would harm a Clinton win, they didn't vote for him. But, Nader brought out a huge number of liberal voters. On the other hand, I certainly understand that the Perot campaign had something to do with the Bush I loss and the Clinton win.

It was Susan B. Anthony's hope that Labor and Women would come together to form a party. How far we seem from that idea!

Certainly one of the biggest and most obvious booby traps in the Democratic Party is the DLC -- the conservative/right-wing of the Democratic Party.
Many Democrats don't even know it exists within the party.
It's the Republican wing, so to speak.

Personally, I'd like to see a united fight for the Democratic Party -- it would just be easier.
What would it take to get Kucinich elected?
Obviously, the establishment wants Clinton --
I'd take Bill again, but I'm concerned about Hillary's positions and her anxiousness to compromise with Republicans and their agendas.

The Gonzales hearing ended today with SPECTER/Magic Bullet suggesting the need for an Independent Prosecutor!!!
I hadn't heard any Democrat mention that very logical possibility. I'm sticking with impeachment, please . . .

Meanwhile, we've all woken up late and we have Global Warming which is really climate crisis -- and the threat to humanity and the planet is growing every day.
We don't have a lot of time to fool around.

Last night in the Democratic/You Tube debates the questions were a farce and unlikely representative of the questions that were really supported by those using the website.

No one asked about nationalizing our own natural resources; especially oil which is in the hands of a few private families. We have know for decades that it is the burning of fossil fuels that causes GW.

There is talk about getting mpg up to 50 in the next decades but not one reminds us that in the 1960's we had cars that did almost that.

Did no one see "Who Killed the Electric Car?"
We could have all electric cars on the highways in 5 years by replacing 20% of them every year -- subsidizing both ends -- manufacture and purchase.

Bush, Cheney, Gonzales don't see to have anything to fear though they have been literally and figuratively torturing humanity for 6 years now.

Insanity seemed to prevail as first Cheney and then Bush proclaimed that they aren't part of the Executive Branch!!!

Maybe if we all keep at it, Pelosi will change her mind . . but the hearings are going nowhere and documents have obviously been tossed, shredded and perhaps lost forever.

Echoes of "Operation Northwoods" and Nixon's "Huston Plan" are still out there --

How many of you, seriously, would join with others and refuse to pay your income tax? To find out where our income tax money really goes, go to: http://www.warresisters.org/piechart.htm

What we do not want, we will not buy. Why is it that we apply this dictum to consumer goods, but not to our government's pernicious projects?

Coupled with unremitting, unified, single-issue protest, a protracted tax revolt will help to de-fund the war, give us all a real sense of community for a change, and send a strong message to those who would serve us in government.

To those who do not support A.N.S.W.E.R Coalition's call for a UNITED, single-issue protest, please remember that a coalition is just that: a union of separate bodies. When this struggle is over, we can all go back to our individual causes. If we don't unite, there may not be any chance of going back...to much of anything.

grappa,

I could not agree with you more, and in fact mentioned that a month ago. Starting at the local level is an ideal place to begin the protest. Put so much heat on local and state officials, that politicians on Capitol Hill will clearly get the message that they are next.

John Dean reminds us that IMPEACHMENT turns "Executive Privilege" into ashes . . .

This is very interesting because we have been bogged down so long with the INVESTIGATIONS GOING NO WHERE BECAUSE OF BUSH/CHENEY CLAIMS OF 'EXECUTIVE PRIVILEGE' . . .

QUOTE . . .
Paraphrasing John Dean.
Impeachment is valuable BECAUSE Bush CANNOT assert executive privilege over ANY ITEMS needed in the investigation AGAINST HIM.
All the records regarding the energy policy, the Plame leak, etc...everything loses it's cover and becomes property of the investigating body (The House). This also means that all the people that REFUSE to acknowledge the subpoenas...Rove, Rice, Miers, etc. HAVE to testify in an impeachment hearing and there is NO getting around that.
The media can ignore Congressional hearings. The media can ignore parliamentary procedure BUT the media CANNOT ignore an impeachment hearing.
SO, if you think pulling the media cover and executive privilege cover off of this administration wouldn't net the support in the Senate (because it sure as hell would get the attention of the people who aren't being told exactly what is going on)...then I am sorry that you simply do not understand the reason we NEED impeachment proceedings.

I'm breaking these down for easier reading --

Interesting reading -- !!!!

I checked the Pelosi "off the table" declaration and it does go back to before the election to 5/12/06 ...
she made various comments, i.e.--

Pelosi said that "impeachment would not be a goal of the the investigations [administrative energy policy and other matters] but she added, "You never know where it leads to."

Conyers had made a case for impeachment hearings on the lies that led us into the war on Iraq and on wiretapping.

Conyers agreed with Pelosi's thinking that Republicans are in desperate shape. We don't want to give them anything to grab onto. Therefore, Pelosi had never considered impeachment a priority.

I changed the wording around on this so here's the link for anyone to decide for themselves what was said and by whom . . .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/11/AR2006051101950.html

and additionally post-election . . .
that she "wouldn't lead a liberal inquistion against President Bush"
that "Democrats aren't about getting even"

.If your interrested in impeachment , it starts at the local level,organize,show up at your local townhalls,council chambers and put heat on the locals,thats where it starts not in washington, they are oblivious to to the sounds of the people in that town.Their ideal of working is to get up and deliver one min. speechesdeclaring their out rage and then going about raising money for their next election. What we must do is make their local districts hot for them.

In response to Wemistikashw and PJD:

Last winter, following the election I packed my two girls up and headed for Washington to join the protest calling for an end to the war. It was publicized well in some circles, but we still had to go looking for for it. Often these events have come and gone before the public is aware and can mobilize in order to participate. We work, we have jobs like most everyone else, but we would have made the effort this time too, had I known about the Conyer's sit-in in time. My family and I and all the friends I could have mustered would have been there.

Surely there must be a way for the many different groups in favor of this impeachment effort to unite at one, large, overpowering Washington event, well publicized and allowing time for everyday citizens and families to get there. They would come. And, I believe, they would come en masse.

I think it must be said too that at the protest we did attend - one intended to show support for bringing troops home - there were signs and groups for a myriad of other concerns and interests in additon to the ending of the war which only weakened the message presumably bringing us all together. Cindy Sheehan has been demoralized, as she stated several weeks ago, because of these fractured efforts from the left w/ so many just but pet agendas.

Many of us, as evidenced by all of these submissions, see how imparative impeachment is to the future of our republic and I pray, pray, pray we will find someway to unite around this one, all-important issue: to demand the removal of this present administration. Only then, it appears can the way be cleared for an end to this illegal war of aggression while preventing another. The constitution and it's division of power is our foundation, and its integrity is at risk, it's a foundation holding up the rest of our house. If it continues to crumble the rest of our pet issues we wish to build upon it aren't going to matter much. (This, for the record, from a pro-life and, until the last election, registered republican).

Congress knows they have given away so much power to the Executive that they realize [OR SHOULD] they HAVE NO EFFECT against the current occupant's signing statements. Whatever GWB INC. wants, he creates it through his own silent [under reported] Executive Orders or even less reported signing statements. Congress essentially has NO POWER!
THE ONLY thing our 'representatives' can effectively do is subpoena, hold in contempt, impeach, convict and hope the current occupant does not create or 'allow' another 9/11 to change the apathy in the citizens of this 'great nation' into fear once AGAIN.
WE MUST keep the pressure on for them to ALL they CAN and ALL they SHOULD and ALL THEY MUST DO to relieve this nation of the criminals in the Executive offices.

"True success in this world is not determined by how much money you make, or by how many possessions you have, but by the positive impact you have on other people, as you work toward your goals and dreams in life".

Sheehan and Code Pink did more to help the Democrats gain control of Congress than Raum Emanuel and DLC.

It is typical and cynical that Conyers, Pelosi and the DLC should shun Sheehan and Code Pink.

If Sheehan runs it will be a laughable joke.

Mommy 64 asks:

Poet

Yes, what do you suggest?

****************

First thing:

If Cindy is really serious about trying to unseat a politician who got over 80% of the vote in her last election Cindy needs to stop the theatrics and get her butt back to SF and start spending 12-16 hour days every day from now to November 2008 building an army of canvasers to cover Pelosi's district and get out the word on Pelosi and the vote for Cindy.

Medea Benjamin has over 20 years of political organizing experience with the Green party which in the SF Bay area has actually gotten local officials elected.

Next:

Mass protests and sit-ins only work when you have masses of people too big to push around--thousands and tens of thousands are the kind of numbers about which I am talking.

The best candidates are the very young (elementary to middle school aged kids) and the elderly (social security and pension recipients with some secure income and lots of time on their hands). (Recruitment should focus on these populations and not college kids many of whom are on the occupational make and too distracted by both hormones and materialism to really care).

Finally:

Understand that it took the fascist neocons about 20 years (from Goldwater to Reagan) to capture the White House and they have had control for a little longer than that. This effort should be for the next generation and all who are in it should be in it for the long haul (as "long" as they have left to "haul" anyway).

When all or most of the efforts to unseat non-progressive cnadidates fail in 08, the very next day after election day should be the start of the next campaign to recruit more volunteers, reframe the issues, document and inform constituents of the misdeeds of their representatives, and fund raise.

That's the way the opposition views it and for progressives to do any less is plain foolishness. We have had fun with stunts and consciousness raising exercises--now it is time to get seriously to work. By the way there are more of us than there are of them so if we never forget that fact, it just becomes a question of how we make connection with our natural allies!

When will the rest of America wake up and realize that democracy and egalitarianism in this country are simply lies-more propaganda to ensure the privileged elite not only remain in power, but increase their power. The Democrats do not represent the progressives. They, like the Republican party, represent their own agenda. They don't care about WE THE PEOPLE or the Constitution. The Dems know there is a very good possibility of taking the White House in 2008 and they want to make sure they can obtain and abuse the same arrogant POWER and perpetuate the same lies that the Bush Administration has perpetrated thanks to their obsequient permission. Like the Cheney/Bush syndicate, these people make my skin crawl.

Watching the Bill Moyers Journal regarding impeachment was extremely helpful to me and I encourage any who have not seen it yet to take some time and do so. Bruce Fein and John Nichols made it very clear that this isn't about Bush and Cheney. This is about our country being in a constitutional crisis and the only, the ONLY cure is impeachment. I agree with those who say it must happen even if there aren't enough votes. It is the process and the precedent being set. Misters Fein and Nichols got me to go beyond my anger and despair with Bush and Cheney and see that it is all about challenging the executive power grab.

Poet

Yes, what do you suggest?

I don't know if Cindy is doing the right thing or the wrong thing. All I know is that she is doing SOMETHING! If you go on over to Daily Kos and lurk on their comments, it's a whole different world than it is here. It's very strange.

I agree that their is no difference between the two parties. The vast majority in both parties have been bought and sold. But I also believe that there are some truely good people from both sides in both parties. All you have to do, as a progressive, is look at the names of the folks that have signed on to HR333. I would postulate that there are a lot of old time Repubs that believe in fiscal responsibility that are none too happy with their party either.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we don't want to throw the baby out with the bath water in '08. The test is going to be which congress critters vote for ending the occupation of Iraq, not invading Iran or Pakistan, and who supports impeachment. You all need to let your reps know that this is a test and that you are watching them every step of the way.If you already know that they aren't worth a vote, mobilize in your State or district to find someone to run against them that is.

Cindy might be on to something. Here in Oregon, Gordon Smith HAS to be unseated. All of the good guys have other things to do. But we're working on it.

Thanks for listening

A strong third party that truely represents the people that put them is office would be ideal. Being fairly realistic, however, I don't think that is a winning strategy for '08. I think that Cindy's approach of challenging Pelosi in the Dem primary is a good strategy. It would be an excellent strategy against ANY incumbant Dem that has proven that they don't represent us, the people. If Cindy and others win in the primaries, what is the DLC going to do? Not support them? That would be pretty stupid. If Cindy and the others don't win the Dem nomination, then they can go and run as independents. In districts where the Dems are pretty strong, I would bet that Repug support would come out of the woodwork. Just like it did in Conn. for that traitor Joe.

Big Protest coming up. Aimed at all of these bumps on a log...

http://www.pephost.org/site/PageServer?pagename=S15_homepage

Believing a Democrat is like putting a fox in the henhouse.

thaddeusstephens said "Senators Debbie Stabenow and Carl Levin are bending over backwards to make sure the U.S. car companies..."

Uh, I am not the most observant guy in the world, but imagining Carl Levin bending over backwards would be a rather cumbersome and painful task without seeing him pop a few buttons and collapse under his own weight. Just an observation Carl, nothing personal.

Cindy's right on one thing. The only language these politicos understand is the ultimatum. Cindy promised to run against Pelosi unless Pelosi acted -- I suspect she'll follow through. Given the current national opinions of both the Repugs and the Dims, it wouldn't take forever to organize a meaningful third party -- it could be done as a coordinated series of write-in campaigns.

The Dims can't or won't give his W-ness a date certain for withdrawal of troops, and aren't willing to bring the impeachment arguments (and evidence) into the spotlight. Too important that they protect the inside-the-Beltway class. I suggest we give them a date certain for withdrawal of support -- impeach (Cheney first) or become involuntarily retired.

After a good exchange last week, I find myself agreeing with Salia when s/he says the Conyers is not alone is betraying the people. We are stuck with a congressional leadership which is more scared of a nebulous undefined fear than any real danger.

What are these "representatives of the people" afraid of? WHile we come at it from differing foundations, Saila and I, I believe, would be the first in line if any Congressman of stature, [no offense meant to the Kuchies and Gravels who have been marginalized by the MSM], had the balls to do what needed to be done: Get on board the train that 60% of Americans are already on. What danger is that to them?.

In selling you're taught that the worst thing a prospect can do to you is tell you "no". S/He can't physically harm you. What if a congressperson got up and said "I believe the majority of my constituents want me to sign onto HR 333" What's the worst that could happen? Maybe they wouldn't get re-elected, maybe they would, but by making the stand, by actually doing what his/her constituency instructed, whether you agree with or not, you gotta give credit.

Why are there no leaders in Congress? Because the People's House is not the House of the People. It is USCongress, Inc, where the job of the employees is to keep their jobs, not do their work: representing the people who employ them.

Disgusted? Yep. Wasting any more time? Nope the next election is too far off to matter, so it's back into the cave. WTF, I bought a t-shirt this weekend. It says, "Quit Bitchin' Start a Revolution" but it didn't come with an instruction book, and I'm not that good a leader. Hell, I can't even get along with Saila.

IMPEACHMENT FOR BUSH AND CHENEY...

Where do I sign...