(Continued ):

But of late things seem to be fast changing. With rising material prosperity , we seem to be demonstrating a sorry propensity for embracing the very worst in Western values and mores - yet giving the 'go-by' to much of the West's more redeeming qualities.

U-C-D: far be it from me to be yet another Uncle Tom - but I particularly liked what you said - and the way you said it.

However in my comments , I did also say : " The kind of mindless violence perpetrated on perfectly innocent -and often well-intentioned -white American tourists , students and missionaries in many Third World countries . Abhorrent , but unfortunately a sad fact of life.'

Which seems to dovetail into the point you've been making .

For some months now I've been noticing a young white American girl walk past my window ,every morning ,on her way to college .( She carries engineering tools like large set squares ). One can't help but feel for her -so very far from home , alone in some Third World country. In fact one would hate it if some lumpen out here -charged up with mindless anti-American feeling (which sadly is all too rife ) -took a swipe at her - or at any of the hundreds of young Western visitors .

But our social ills ( which alas are legion) notwithstanding, we ,out here, seem to be gentler, more peaceable folk.

Among other things ,extending courtesies to elders is very much ingrained in us. Many's the time some perfect stranger has offered me his seat on one of our overcrowded buses.

(In contrast ,some years ago when I offered my seat on the London Underground to an elderly lady , I could hear a sharp intake of breath from witnesses to the scene. I was quite puzzled at first . Later it struck me that it just wasn't done .) Out here it's routine -very much like giving alms to beggars or dancing eunuchs .Few would give it even a second thought .

It sometimes feels as though this administration is attempting to start armageddon. Perhaps W. is truly a religious fanataic that does indeed hear voices.

Not part of the choir…I wonder just what "most Americans" writer2 is talking about? No one I know "went along with the war" in Iraq. It's so easy to use stereotypical language when trying to make a weak point. It is pure bull crap. Politicians are slick raw sewage. The Bush War in Iraq was the biggest mistake ever made by this country. And everyone knows it. Everyone! Even the fools. But dealing with Pakistan is finally the right thing to do! Afghanistan and Pakistan should have been the targets in the first place. Pakistan has nuclear weapons, so what? Israel has them too! Pakistan also has bin Laden and his terrorist thugs. You don't think for a minute bin Laden and his gang don't hop around from Afghanistan to Pakistan to Iran to Saudi Arabia to Syria to Iran and Iraq? They have plenty of room to move around in. Iraq has suffered the idiocy of this administration who couldn't find their heads up their asses with a floodlight. The United States ought to stop their war in Iraq and turn their attention to the real culprits. One still wonders why they didn't? The United Nations should deal with Pakistan's nuclear weapon problem, and if they don't then pitbull United States should! Musharraf is a puppet of the US and everyone knows it. But that should not deter action on devious, loose cannon Pakistan. And forget about Iran, which if they don't would be another stupid move.

DAVE PEPPER: thank you for making the points about our own "embedded" press. I hope Moonraven and Saila read your post... those who are not here trying to make a difference do not realize the forces we are up against at this time in America's history.

canuckchuck July 22nd, 2007 10:23 pm "Now that the war has become a problem for your average American, NOW they are against it."

I beg to disagree. I don't believe that the war is enough of a problem for your average American yet. Average Americans are only against the war in the polls.

Fuel costs are over $3.50. All of my neighbors, and every single one of the 30 people in my office still drive their own cars to work every single day (read: no car pooling). These people are your "average Americans."

I take the bus and one person said to me today, "I feel so sorry for you. How can you manage without a car?" When I talked to my neighbor yesterday about fuel costs she admitted that she hadn't reached her "breaking point" yet - they drove their SUV from the midwest to Montana and back, pulling a trailer and paying up to $4.00 per gallon.

I mentioned Gitmo to another average American acquaintance. I got a confused look to which I responded, "You know - Guantanamo Bay? Prison in Cuba? Torture? Holding innocents without charge? Denying them access to an attorney?" At which point, the person shrugged their shoulders and walked away.

There are other things that average Americans are upset about - healthcare and jobs. But the war and the military machine? Not so much. It seems to me that, much to the detriment of the entire planet, average Americans don't /can't / choose not to see the interconnectedness of it all.

Bush and Co. are hoping, when the time comes, that India will side with us and come to our aid when we go to war with Pakistan. And if China comes to the aid of Pakistan, the Pentagon and Bush and Co. will have the wars that will make them lots of loot. That's capitalism for you.

Bu$h and co. are driven by the bottom line, $$$$, just as all other businesses have, including the media. It is NOT about news, it is about money. The WH is all about POWER and money, period! These guys have destroyed our country so badly, I cannot see a good end in sight, even after they leave office, which they stole like the thieves and liars they are. People who are so self righteous scare me. They are NOT the ones who really know God; they know only greed, power, and their own selves to look good. Sadly, the Lemming in Chief has led all of them down the garden path and they are all about to fall off the cliff together, if we are VERY lucky. I have never seen a worse administration than this regardless of whatever any other Prez has done. They manke Bill Clinton look like a saint. If his wife and daughter forgave him, why do these self righteous hypocrites think they are one bit better. I believe they will be very surprised when they REALLY meet the ultimate Judge, God, himself. He does not suffer fools; and "it is harder for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven than for a camel to go through the eye of a needle." That pretty much sums it all up. At the very end when it counts, "Surprise, you aren't the Judge." Be humorous if this was not such a deadly dangerous, damning administration.

Impeach 'em all!

Americans do not have a free press, so they don't make decisions with accurate information. US press totally isolates Americans and gets them to support wars they would otherwise not support. Americans do not support wars of conquest and aggression, as a general rule. However, if you tell Americans that they will be attacked by "communists" or "terrorists", they will believe it, and support wars of a defensive nature. All you need to do is run a propaganda campaign telling Americans they are threatened, and they will follow their leaders into war every time. This is what Hitler did to get the German people to support his occupations in Europe. America's leaders are following Hitler's playbook to a "T". Goebbels was a master of propaganda. So is the White House and its compliant press. The internationalist global government cabal is using American economic and military power to advance its own agenda of world domination. This is what Americans don't understand. They cannot make the connection between this cabal, and their government being used by it.

Nb: by 'psychologically disturbed individuals' I of course include those who've been mind-warped by military conditioning.

Milo2971: Thanks for the John Prine lyric, -I love that song!

Sioux: xx

RJKT:
"...sometimes the hatred and the loathing get the better of us , and the American closest to hand becomes fair game."

~ I hear what you're saying RJKT, but here's a psychological benchmark to test your or others supposed 'hatred of Americans':

--> You are about to cross a busy road, and there's a mother and a toddler standing by your side. The mother doesn't notice that her little kid has wandered out into the path of an oncoming truck. You see the danger and immediately take action and quickly pluck the baby out of harm's way, much to the gratitude of the mother...

Over a 'thankyou' coffee you talk to the woman...
Turns out she is an American, and a Republican voter. Do you feel then remiss at having saved the life of her child?

I think probably not.

Reverse scenario:
Same situation, but this time a left-wing activist mother, with a staunch Republican by her side: The Republican also would likely act swiftly to save the life of the Left-winger's child...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Unless we are very psychologically disturbed individuals, our innate human / humane response is to ever protect the lives of our fellow human beings, no matter what our rhetoric (or polemics) 'off stage'.

I wonder if all that makes sense, and the implications are seen here?

UNCOMMON DREAMS says, "Libertas, Bush don't spell too good, he meant his DOG talks to him!" yeah! Priceless! quote from the The dyslexic oxymoron never-elected prez!

Sadly, the wisdom of columnists such as Margolis will not deter the madmen running amok in the Dubya presidency. Anyone with an ounce of grey matter could have predicted prior to 'Shock and Awe' the meltdown that has since happened in the Middle East. Now that the Bushies are trying desperately to mould a win out of abject defeat, anything and everything is in their gunsights. I can't understand why droves of Americans aren't out on the streets in protest as their nation is being hijacked. A column on Common Dreams noted how a woman hung her US flag upside down to protest US policy --- and was promptly upbraided by 95% of her neighbours. If that's a reflection of Americans' general attitude at this stage of the game, heaven help America and heaven help the world.

Blame Musharraf. The poor fool was seduced by US sweet talk and decided to act in their interest instead of his own peoples. Didn't he write a book and even went on a US publicity tour? I remember shaking my head and wondering what that was all about. I mean he was still the leader of a country at the time, not retired as is usually the case. How seduced (and misled) can you get?

And now the US is turning against him.

To use a tired saying, With friends like that (US ) who needs enemies...?

But your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more.
They're already overcrowded
From your dirty little war.
Now Jesus don't like killin'
No matter what the reason's for,
And your flag decal won't get you
Into Heaven any more. - John Prine

We've got enough troops to invade Pakistan AND Iran? Since when?

U-C-D. You certainly have a point about avoiding internecine conflicts.

Its just that to many of us non-Westerners , the 'Ugly American" of legend ( actually Burdick and Lederer's book ), has got far ,far uglier since.

So sometimes the hatred and the loathing get the better of us , and the American closest to hand becomes fair game. ( The kind of mindless violence perpetrated on perfectly innocent -and often well-intentioned -white American tourists , students and missionaries in many Third World countries .) Abhorrent , but unfortunately a sad fact of life.

Fortunately , for Americans, such hatred and loathing now extends to other Westerners .

Internecine sparring twixt sides here is maybe not the most useful thing we could be doing?
I think we can take it as a given, that, -for the most part, we C-D readers / writers (wheresoever from) are essentially 'all on the same side'?

That being the case, we could renew our focus on the main challenge, -which is that each of we citizens of (most) countries have inept, hearing-impaired fools at the helm, and in some cases they are worse than just foolish, - they are actually totally insane hellhounds seeking to bring humanity to it's knees.

Libertas fugit writes:
"Bush says God talks to him. I wonder."

Libertas, Bush don't spell too good, he meant his DOG talks to him!
____________

With all due respect folks, maybe we might more helpfully focus on how best to attain unity within *our* ranks, to thus conserve energy devoted to defeating our main foe, -being those diseased beings who have wormed their way to the top of the dung heap?

A NA Indian friend told me, "Every time you point the finger of blame at someone, there's three fingers pointing back at you."

Overall, 'blame' is being seen increasingly often by the more enlightened among us as a cop-out and a poor way of relating towards each other. There are many other ways of behaving apart from pointing the finger and blaming, and these generally produce more satisfactory outcomes?

*None* of us have clean hands, most of us have 'beams in our own eyes', none of us are perfect, and we who are trying to clean up our act, and move on into a more enlightened period of history still have a lot to learn...

Overall, humanity is still in it's infancy down here at 'Earth School'.
_____________

( ~ and if you continue to fight among yourselves I shall call Teacher over and get you all expelled, - so there!) :)
;)

Peace and striving,

U-C-D

Rebel Farmer,

DISCLAIMER: The pronoun "you" used herein does not refer to you personally, or to the well-informed posters on this site. It refers to the average John Doe and Mary Moe.

OK, I'll give you something you can't deny, but you can still get your laugh, like you get it from "canuckchuck" above, a good, honest, healthy laugh, but be careful because this time the laugh may be on you.

You Americans are very nice people, no doubt about it. In fact, so nice that your government takes advantage of you and screws you, nice and clean, without you uttering a word. Take taxes for example. You pay taxes on everything, tax on your salary, tax on everything you buy (save food), tax on your property, tax on interest earned, and tax when you die. You are literally taxed to death, and you don't probably even have free health insurance. Your government is worse than a Las Vegas rigged slut machine. I guess if tomorrow they tell you that you must pay taxes on watching TV, you will obediently and sheepishly accept. Did you know that there are countries where people pay no taxes at all? None, absolutely none of those taxes?

It's not because your country is poor and needs taxes to provide services. No. Your country spends billions and billions of dollars to blow things up and maintain about 800 to 1000 military bases all over the globe to protect the corporate interests with your money. Well, you're such nice people that you take it without even a whisper coming out of you. Did you watch the TV last year when the French, whom you normally think of as being sissy, got into the streets, and the government had to back off? Did you see the dictator of Pakistan a couple of days ago back off and reinstate the head of the judiciary?

Now you can have your laugh.

I don't mean to say the US would not be that stupid. They have proven to be utterly idiotic, destructive and self-destructive, but in light of the current situation the talk will probably do the trick as long as it's credible. So I think we will witness some increase in bellicosity and threats. Maybe some bombardments on villages, don't have to be related to anything, some people will be blown up and some will be shot to post-mortem become important taliban-leaders and stuff. But the real reasons lie somewhere else:

"...According to friends of Musharraf, he is not confident that a newly-elected assembly would elect him and believes he needs six months to "soften up" MPs. His problem is that his own term ends before that of the current assembly. To win a democratic mandate for a new term, he must either bring forward the elections or extend the term of the current assembly to give himself more time to win over MPs.

This can be done under the Constitution if it can be shown that a delay is needed to tackle "lawlessness". The deteriorating security situation, particularly in the tribal areas bordering Afghanistan, would help him justify such a move."

http://www.thenews.com.pk/top_story_detail.asp?Id=9167

The US and NATO already bombed Pakistan several times and succeeded there in killing many unsuspecting civilians too. So why, besides of the "invasion" rethoric, is it that the same story is now given such a high profile?

Well, might it have something to do with the US wish of keeping Musharraf in power through the elections, drawing very near now? And might they want to provide for the sense of urgency among the public so they would swallow Musharraf declaring the state of emergency he so desperately wants?

Doesn't it strike anyone as just a little bit odd that in the midst of all this talk of Pakistani invasion US intelligence all of the sudden "knows" where bin Laden is hiding? That sort of thing just tickles my funny bone I can tell you.

Oh no, everytime we start bombing poor people the nut jobs bring out their American flags and bumper stickers. Murdering people is much easier from high altitude and you don't have to see their faces.

The expertises of those who have spent their carrers studying this part of the world, the history of the area, & logic, are irrelevant. Only divine guidence matters when planning more military adventurism.

sorry Rebel Farmer..I dont find much to laugh about today...WW3 starting in the ME, and me living right next door to the 4th Reicht.

I recall that most Americans wern't too sympathetic to the Germans pleas of helplessness in the face of THEIR government either.

right on Writer 2

Now that the war has become a problem for your average American, NOW they are against it.

when they thought it was just killing helpless "ragheads" and cheap oil at home, they were waving their flags so hard you could feel the breeze up here.

A country full of Hillarys and self-interest.

no canuckchuck is right about americans, it is not just this godforsaken cheney/wolfowitz/bush administration.
most americans went along with the war. they only turned on cheney/bush when the war turned out to be a failure. if they had a sense of decency they should have been against it from the start.

Starislon2: Like the idea of rendition for our "dear leaders." Times are so tough makes you want to escape to sci-fi and picture SUPERMAN rushing in to lift these 2 scoundrels (Bush-Cheney) right out of the White House, politely saying, "Excuse me, guards," and carry them TO Afghanistan... let them WATCH the wars they beg to start UP CLOSE and personally, preferably wearing straight jackets.

To canuckchuck:

Don't you find that a large majority of US posters here are fully aware of US policy shortcomings? Most of us are not arrogant-egotistical perhaps[excluding myself of course]-but those qualities aren't identical-eh? Sorry-pun intended-couldn't resist.
Seriously we are frightened of what these war profiteers have done to the world at large and us within the US.We need help-e.g.-is there any talk in Canada of offering poll watchers for the 08 election?

Unless Americans stand up and throw out its elitist, fascist dictatorship, we're culpable for all of the atrocities it commits in our name. Until we demand revolution, we are the people are parents warned us about... The power of the tyrant is always granted by the oppressed.

Spike, LOL......Joe Lieberman went to Iraq, true, but he looked as scared as a rabbit in the picture, walking in the street in Baghdad. He was wearing body armor, was surrounded by a phalanx of guards, and helicopters were hovering overhead. The poor sap was still scared to death. It's a wonder the coward didn't have a heart attack.

Hey canuckchuck, your sense of humor needs sharpening again. I usually get my daily laugh from you. And I certainly need a laugh today, more than ever. Please don't equate Americans with their god forsaken government and all the damned corporations that are raping the world. Please. Pretty please.....

"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."

It seems that most Americans, along with the rest of the world, are mad now. Mad at our Fascist Dictatorship!

Have any of you Americans ever considered, that with the ever growing anti-americanism in the world, there is a damn good reason for it, as a result of your arrogant "all for me-none for you" policies?

It would appear that Bush/NeoCon will have to be physically constrained, then isolated, before their deconstructionalism will come to a halt.

Would incarceration be a popular alternative to "Cease & Desist"?, or is the situation so grave that "extreme rendition" is the only realistic alternative?

"Bush/Cheney & Co. do not understand that while they can rent President Musharraf's government in Islamabad, many Pashtun value personal honor far more than money, and cannot be bought."

You'd have thought that Bush/Cheney had learnt this lesson long before 9/11, when the Taleban were so lavishly entertained in Texas with the hope that they would give Unocal rights to construct the pipeline from the Caspian Sea reserves across Afghanistan and thus control the flow of oil and gas. But the Taleban could not be bought.

The U.S. is forever playing the blame game for its ill-conceived policy. First it was Saddam and his henchmen. Then it was remnants of Baath Party, followed by Abu Musa Zarkavi. After that came the Al Qaeda in Iraq, replaced by accusing and threatening Iran. And now it's Pakistan. Hey guys, would you make up your friggin minds as to what you want to do, or don't you have any plans? Would you please just bring your soldiers back home so we can have a peaceful world?

I think bombing Pakistan will send the Pashtuns into Afghanistan where they can fight the NATO forces on the ground.

Not to worry, Bush and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Wolfowitz and Rove and Kissinger and a host of other 'war lovers' are going to Pakistan themselves and kick some Pathan ass.
You know how they love to be in the forefront of a real fight. Liebermann will be along later; after he personally wipes out the Iranians.

Bush doing Bin Laden's bidding.... destroying America...

Madam Pelosi: Why is impeachment still off the table?

another conflict is a must! a absolute necessity! pakistan is the prime target and always has been, not iran. without another invasion... there are too many things to say.. this adminstration is gone...or the u.s. citizens will lose their fear of bush and terrorists, or...

While the media shills focus on Iran, we are creating a far more dangerous situation in Pakistan. This is an increasingly unstable nation with a growing faction of anti-American Isalmists. This is a nation with nuclear capabilities which borders on the world's second most populous nation (also nuclear). We need to de-escalate our involvement in pressuring them to attack the tribal regions. Military solutions in that region cannot reuslt in anything but disaster on a horrific scale.

I would actually have to say this could be fatal for the US. Combine this line of thinking, attacking Pakistan, with an attack on Iran and what we will have done is single-handedly start WW3, complete with fireworks. So what was the accomplished mission? I forgot...

"Whom the gods would destroy, they first make mad."

Bush says God talks to him. I wonder.