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Blind Loyalty Latest US War Casualty
PEMBERTON, New Jersey, is a military town, but it emerges from the highway like a vision of an older, simpler, idealised America conceived by Norman Rockwell.
This is not a holiday, yet Pemberton's historic main street is dressed in national flags, the Stars and Stripes lifting from every lightpole, and most front porches. The streetscape reflects more optimistic times. The houses are Georgian and Victorian, brick and timber, multi-storied, high-gabled and elaborately decorated.
Cars bear transfers of yellow ribbon that speak of supporting "our" troops. Overhead, lumbering jets cast giant shadows as they approach McGuire Air Force Base.
Also adjacent to the town is Fort Dix, the military camp that has done more than any other to prepare troops for the conflict in Iraq.
If George Bush loses towns like Pemberton, then he has surely lost America. And it seems he is losing this piece of small-town America, population 29,000.
Virginia Green, 29, is a self-described "army brat". Her father was army. Her husband is air force, stationed at McGuire. Her brother also is army, and presently in Iraq.
Mrs Green shares Mr Bush's faith in God and says she knows he is a good man, since he trusts in God for making executive decisions. But she adds that the conflict in Iraq has persisted too long.
"Me and my husband try not to be political people - we try to take authority from God," she said. "I think he has been a good president. But I do think in some ways, instead of letting God totally rule his decisions (Bush) has let some of the other people higher up do that.
"I would like to see an end to it but I know everything is not ready for that. I wish the Iraqi people would get more into the freedoms they used to have."
Pemberton's streetscape might appear frozen in the 19th century, but the views of its citizens on the role of the military in Iraq, and on President Bush are shifting more rapidly. Local Methodist pastor Jare Hopkins-Doerr has seen a shift in the six years she has been in the town.
The congregation she led at the time of the outbreak of the first Gulf War in 1991 insisted on a community-wide prayer vigil. When the US went into Iraq there was no groundswell for a corresponding time of reflection and hope in Pemberton.
About one-third of her congregation is military personnel and their families, and there was probably 90 per cent support through the church for Mr Bush's move into Iraq. Now, it might, just might, be 50:50, she said.
"About two years ago, I began to hear some of our military people questioning overall. They were disappointed in the lack of planning and strategy, but I did not hear any question as to whether we should be there," Ms Hopkins-Doerr said.
"This is a military town. There's an ingrained nature not to question military authority. Questioning the involvement in Iraq would not have have been there four years ago, and it sure is now. And mostly, what I hear is that there are no good solutions. People also distinguish between Afghanistan and Iraq."
Military people mostly shy away from commenting, as do their spouses, who say they would not like to cause embarrassment for their partners. But even among this group, there is a suspicion of the President's motives for going into Iraq.
One young woman, about to begin college and whose parents are both in the army, said she believed the conflict was a Christian pursuit of Muslims. Asked her own religious fealty, Chantel Wheeler said she was Christian.
Herbert Bell, 53, and ex-army of 20 years' service, including two years in Vietnam, lives down one of Pemberton's pretty side-streets, displaying still more Stars and Stripes. He has none of the reticence of current military personnel in speaking his mind.
"He is the worst president we ever had. Worse than his Dad. People are speaking but it seems they are not speaking loud enough, or Bush is not listening. Everyone can see what's wrong - you must be brain-washed or crazy not to understand it," he said.
Mr Bell, it must be said, did not vote for Mr Bush, and identifies himself as a Democrat in this mostly Republican town. But, he said, for him it was clear from the beginning that the war was wrong; that one country cannot tell another how to organise itself.
He is upset, too, that mostly it is people from average or struggling backgrounds who are fighting the war.
"All the kids, rich ones going to college for some reasons have got ways of getting out of the war. For the average citizen, it's hard for them to lose somebody in the war, but they are (seen as) expendable."
Out of town, where the corn fields begin and the air is rich with country smells, Eleanor Kirkbride's home has none of the historic grandeur of the township.
But she has made up for it by leaving in place her red, white and blue budlights and the sweeping red, white and blue bunting across her front veranda. It all went up for the Fourth of July and it will come down she knows not when.
Mrs Kirkbride, 76, is a fearful woman who does not like to leave her dairy farm, but when she does, she said she is watchful all the time. She worries too, about her granddaughter, who has an Iraqi boyfriend.
"I hate to see our boys being killed over there. Then again, you don't know if they (terrorists) are coming over here," Mrs Kirkbride said.
But, she said, the war in Iraq had continued too long. "I would like to see them finish up and get home. I would like the people over there to take over their own country. Every day you see there's more being killed and that's disgusting."
At the local florist, businesswoman Norma Ward is circumspect when asked about the performance of the Bush Administration. She said she thought they were working to the best of their ability. And then she laughed.
Her friend, Cristy Ratcliffe was disturbed by the revelation that the country's top national security advisers had concluded that the strategy for fighting Osama bin Laden and al-Qaeda in Pakistan had failed, and that the terrorist network had rebuilt and reorganized.
"They said on the news the threat is back to where it was on 9/11, so we got nowhere," she said.
There is in the town a real sense of war-weariness. "Why are we the world's police?" asked Charles Fisher, who has lived in Pemberton since he returned from Vietnam in the 1970s after two years in the army.
"The only reason we are there is because of oil - if it's not in the country, it's a route to it. He has picked up where his father left off. Everybody's tired."
Copyright © 2007. The Age Company Ltd.



58 Comments so far
Show All"But I do think in some ways, instead of letting God totally rule his decisions (Bush) has let some of the other people higher up do that."
Right - those people higher up than "God". It's all
clear now.
"Me and my husband try not to be political people - we try to take authority from God," she said. "I think he has been a good president. But I do think in some ways, instead of letting God totally rule his decisions (Bush) has let some of the other people higher up do that.
These religious people are the dumbest people on Earth.
Every time I read an article about simple towns in rural places in America one phrase comes to mind - "Stupid Americans".
Pemberton is the perfect example why America needs to take back it's publicly owned broadcast spectrum and use it to keep its citizenry well informed. Pemberton is a mushroom farm, they (administration) keep them in the dark (ages) and feed them shit (propaganda).
But, the herd mentality has gotten a whiff of dissent from the media and now they are beginning to realize that this war may not be just. Politicians know that if they control the media they control more than 50% of America (embedded reporters). The fight is not in politics, the fight is who can control the American herd through the mass media.
"There's an ingrained nature not to question military authority."
Now there is the big problem!
Is there any question why this country is so f***ed-up. Just listen to these moron's.
Wdmax3 - I like your description of Pemberton, but it actually describes all of America today. I left America 20 years ago because I couldn't live on a "mushroom farm". I've never regretted my decision. In fact I'm more and more sure it was the right thing to do. I think most Americans are not stupid but they are unwilling to admit to themselves that America is a fraud. That would force them to reevaluate their entire lives. Not something easy to do, for anyone. Especially in the United States of Everything, where people are encouraged to pretend.
Hoa binh
A story like this is mostly depressing, but a little hopeful. It's depressing, obviously, because it underscores what I've known all along: there ARE plenty of Americans who are so simple-minded and delusional as to accept military authority without question. The whole religious aspect here just adds to the absurdity. Moreover, this town is in New Jersey: a bright blue state. Ignorance and unquestioning "patriotism" is not just limited to the south.
But it is hopeful in that a flicker of awareness developing even in people as naive and uninformed as this. There are clearly limits to the American propaganda machine; it's the job of progressives to fan the flicker of awareness and doubt into a full fledged flame.
Happy Days;
"Me and my husband try not to be political people - we try to take authority from God," she said. "I think he has been a good president. But I do think in some ways, instead of letting God totally rule his decisions (Bush) has let some of the other people higher up do that.
These religious people are the dumbest people on Earth.
I AM a religious person. And a PROUD SOCIALIST!!
And I AGREE WITH YOU 100%!!
Most "religious" people are too stupid to find their way home at the end of the day without simply getting lucky.
I live in a state of perpetual embarrassment from hearing ignorant people that call themselves "religious" open their mouths.
I have believed for a long time that people should not be allowed to vote simply because they happen to be alive.
If ANYONE cannot pass a simple test demonstrating rudimentary understanding of the issues and where various candidates stand on those issues they should not be allowed to casually and lazily fuck things up for the rest of us by exercising their "right" to vote.
Hell, you cannot legally operate a motor vehicle in this country without being tested in order to prove that you know what to do behind the wheel.
But we allow brainwashed, ignorant people who are too lazy, or too greedy or too racist or too militaristic.....I could go on, but you get the point.....to have an influence on the direction of this country through the act of voting.
An incompetent driver can at worst usually only kill themselves or a few more motorists and/or pedestrians.
Dumbasses through the act of voting can kill us all.
I spent five long years on Long Island where most people were traditionalists who did not question authority (the only region to give it's vote to George H. W. Bush in 1992). I realized that most of those who challenged authority got up and left the East Coast, mainly for the West Coast. So they aren't morons, they are just different. The real problem is the media, which they believe and trust and we don't.
In spite of the blanket of propaganda covering them, they can feel something is wrong. Without information they can't define it, but they can sense it. Jumping on each other and being divisive is unhelpful. These are decent and well-meaning people. So let's be patient and just try to get the information out there. The Fairness Doctrine would be a good start.
What incredibly stupid and ill-informed remarks.
If this is your basic, average American vox pop, which I believe it probably is, then it's all over now, baby blue.
Morons is pretty accurate. I'm here in the heart of the midwest. It's the same here. They don't read books or news, They don't listen to reasonable debate. Hell, I had a college prof who'd brag about the fact he hadn't read a single book since 9th grade.
Is it a coincidence that roughly 30 % of the america's population support bush.
And the high school dropout rate has been around 30 %?
What God do they worship? A murderous God? A corrupt God? A deceitful God? If they are that blind to the evil coming out of this administration and the ideology that guides it, then I think they really have fallen for false prophets if not the Antichrist.
Moron nation or just disinformed?
My grandfather dropped out of school in the eighth grade to support his family after his father was killed in a ranching accident. What he didn't possess in education, he made up for in common sense. When I hear some on this forum pat themselves on the back too much for being far superior to the people interviewed here, I think of one of grandad's sayings: "being clever is not the same as being wise". Give these guys a break.
Let's have some empathy and tolerance. After all, the "Best and the Brightest" got us into Vietnam.
The problem is that small town Americans are masters of self-censorship and going along to get along. I know a small Hawaii town-- far from a direct analogy to Pemberton but more similar than you might think -- that's also high-percent military family, though not nearly as great as Perberton. Their newspaper provides fluff stories and never fails to revel in a small turnout for anti-war protests. A discussion blog was created for their online edition with "terms of use" clauses that prohibited swear words stronger than "hell" and a 50 word limit to entries, just so nobody could make a statement that meant anything. Even that was too much for them, so they instituted a moderation system where each entry now has to be vetted by a censor who almost arbitrarily drops posts that he/she doesn't like. If you try to make more than one post, they will likely be dropped. If you criticize the thinking of another poster, your post is dropped. In other words, a forum that COULD provide an invaluable service to inform and sophisticate a small town has been effectively neutralized.
My point in belaboring this is that media factions in America are terrified of the free exchange of ideas and seek to infantilize the discussion as much as possible. Under these condition is it any wonder why the Pemberton's of America exist?
The article says: "Me and my husband try not to be political people - we try to take *authority* from God,"
~ and then continues:
"This is a military town. There's an ingrained nature not to question military *authority*."
Hmmm. All this talk of *authority*.
Maybe that's a key issue to understanding how folks arrive at seemingly odd conclusions? They recognise 'Authority' as possessing greater wisdom then their own innate thoughts.
How does that come about? And what happens when people wake, and trust their *own* wisdom a bit more? ...
____________________
wdmax3:
"The fight is not in politics, the fight is who can control the American herd through the mass media."
~Yup, I think you make a good point there fella.
______________
TimKidd:
"But it is hopeful in that a flicker of awareness developing even in people as naive and uninformed as this. There are clearly limits to the American propaganda machine; it's the job of progressives to fan the flicker of awareness and doubt into a full fledged flame."
~Too true!
_________
waiguoren:
"What incredibly stupid and ill-informed remarks."
~ I disagree, and think that that remark is probably 'incredibly stupid and ill-informed.'
I think the above posts are honest, interesting expressions by people of goodwill, who are trying to say something useful.
Recall also from Dylan's song:
"You must leave now, take what you need, you think will last...
/ The carpet, too, is moving under you
And it's all over now, Baby Blue."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Michael Moore speaks of the of 'Listening to your Rightwing brother-in-law' strategy.
If we can understand how those who do not agree us with are thinking and feeling, then we can usefully see where they are coming from, and meet them on some sort of common ground?
This way they, (and we), do not become instant warring 'enemies', and in place of pointless arguments and a lot of hostile hot air, there can be a mutual 'LISTENING'.
These folk in Pemberton are not evil people. Maybe they are just sorely duped, and if so, it's our task to *help* the likes of them to 'see the light' (-as best we understand it, -for no one has a monopoly on the truth!) ;)
--And ever remembering that one of *us* remonstrating with them is one thing, - but when they hear the same argument propounded by 'one of their own', that is likely to hit the mark that much deeper?
~ Well, that's what this 'stupid and ill-informed' person believes! :)
I want to remind people that some 75% of the population were all gung-ho in March, 2003 when Bush said, "let's roll"
Conformity sure as hell as a lot less to do with a person's shoe size, IQ, or educational level than folks might want to admit.
At the very least, these folks are going on the record showing they are confused, afraid, and don't find this war or the justifications made for it acceptable.
Sure is a hell of lot more than some of these gray anons with fake names can put on the table.
-----
Jeff Moehring: Although I share your frustration, I think that the idea of any kind of "literacy test" that could disenfranchise any citizen has the stink of Jim Crow all over it. It's odd that a socialist would seriously suggest something that could be so easily manipulated by corrupt boards of election and political operatives of ANY persuasion. A "rudimentary understanding of the issues and where various candidates stand on those issues" could be defined and analyzed in a myriad of ways, depending on the motives of the person doing the testing. Would you not agree that a tyranny of the "educated" class would be just as destructive to a democratic society as the apparent tyranny of the "ill-informed by the mainstream media, the corporate-imperialist duopoly and the right-wing religious zealots" that we have now?
Hell, even the banjo playing kid from Deliverance thinks bush is an idiot
bildad,
The status quo sure as hell ain't working.
When a large percentage of voters of a certain persuasion STILL believe that Iraq was behind 911 I think it is past time to try something else.
I am not advocating a vetting of a highly sophisticated nature.
The example I just noted is but one example of the level of knowledge that I consider to be requisite to the privilege of voting.
Sure the process is open to manipulation, as are all things that people will attempt to do.
But I have reached the point where I AM WILLING to risk a tyranny of the educated class over this pathetic and dangerous system that we currently have.
all the best
Bildad,
What Jeff Moehring is illustrating is how truly dangerous it is to have people who don't understand the issues have an equal say as to how those issues get resolved.
Somebody who makes decisions based on religion and false information isn't serving the common good. We all know this to be true.
BUT if we truly want a representive democracy, we will have to (and do have) stupid, greedy, apathetic, and "ignorance-is-bliss" leaders, because this adequately describes MANY Amercians.
Think about this. Jim Crow laws were designed to prevent black people from voting because they (the government) didn't want to lose their control over them.
What good does it do to give "everybody the right vote", when people consciously remain ignorant? Why is their input valid, when it is based on falsehoods and self (or 'god') serving b.s.? Americans don't feel it is their responsibility to serve the common good- this is our problem.
Please save the "it isn't their fault they're so stupid" rhetoric- These are the people procreating and teaching their children the exact same empty, nationalist crap..."blind loyalty".
I was going to comment on this article, but from the response I really don't need to. Well said.
Just one thing though. Sorry, I can't resist a reponse to the quote "I think he has been a good president..." She must be watching Fox "fair and balance" news 24/7. Especially when Fox posed the questions to its legions of ignorant followers "Is President Bush the best president in history?"
Enough Said
Why do you suppose God has been giving Mr. Bush such lousy advice for the past 6 1/2 years?
This type of article scares the hell out of me. To think that in this day and age of nuclear weapons that can wipe out mankind, WMD's that can brutally kills hundreds of thousands and a military blindly executing every order given, decisions are being made by people who are driven by a "religious belief".
Perhaps this is the "end of days" since mankind seems incapable of overthrowing the superstitions and ancient belief systems which once "protected" us from the "evil spirits" and were used to explain nature's fury.
How can we as a species ever hope to put away the weapons and learn to live together on this planet once and for all if we allow our conscious and reasoning minds to be overtaken with fears and superstitions from the days of neanderthals and cave paintings?
The comments made by Pemberton folks about "authority" are pretty telling. Reminds me of George Lakoff's "Don't Think of an Elephant" --that conservative folks tend to look at things through an authoritarian, strong father figure (God, the President) frame; while progressives & liberals are more inclined to see things from the perspective of an egalitarian frame.
I would echo those who remind the more crabby posters that yes, there has been and continues to be a dangerous level of ignorance in many parts of this country, and that ignorance has allowed a great deal of heinous greed and viciousness disguised as foreign and domestic policy to take place, not just during the past 6.5 years but really since the Nixon administration. And some of this ignorance is deliberately chosen by those who refuse to hear a bad word against their dear Christian president.
However: the truth will set these folks (and the rest of us) free -- but they will not hear it if it comes from people who are more than willing to call them "stupid," "morons," etc. They're people, victims as much as the rest of us: of public schools designed to create docile workers, mainstream media designed to keep the war machine going, and a form of religion that teaches them to accept authority and not ask questions. That they are asking questions at all, even at this late date, is a minor miracle, one we should celebrate, not make snide remarks about.
I believe that all of this religious and cultural indoctrination is a form of mental abuse from which many of our fellow citizens suffer. And we have to be kind to them if they are ever going to be liberated from it. Remember what the great Ben Franklin said, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately." If we allow ourselves to engage in the politics of snide divisive sarcasm, the neocons win.
Wow everyone comments on small towns being full of dumb bunnys but I gota say while I was eating lunch today I heard the same uninformed BS as this small town shows and I am in a major western city I was suprised to hear it there, people who do not use the internet are spoon feed all over this country no wonder these people have no clue
To Mrs. Green and the others who think Bush is "A good man" . . .
Just because George Bush says he's "born again" and says he gets his "guidance from above", does not at all mean it's true.Please look at his very actions . . . all his actions (the only thing that God ultimately recognizes in a man), including his near total disregard for the welfare of our brave troops in Iraq (as evidenced by numerous funding cuts for equipment and VA healthcare services and beyond sanity multiple redeployments). By understanding who he is (through thorough research), taking a close look at his actions (which are all contrary to any real spiritual understanding) and by recognizing that everything he has ever said and then acted upon is purely political and designed to fool you into thinking he is a "good guy" through designed rhetoric and outright lies . . . don't you think that perhaps you've been had on his proclaimed association with God ?
I'm originally from Texas and Bush never sounded like he was from there (which he's not) until he ran for Governor and he never "found God" until his political advisors (Karl Rove for one) told him he could get 2 million additional votes from the Christian community in Texas by becoming "born again" (and then didn't balk once at such a deceitful ploy). FYI, Bush only got 18% of registered votes in his gubernatorial win. No one voted in that election, perhaps sensing he was the fraud we've now come to know . . . as a total political contrivance. Perhaps it was because the voters knew that the Texas Legislature (pre Tom Delay's influence) hold all the power in that state. It doesn't matter because we must now deal with getting voters involved beyond settling for what FOX News and the other immoral, double-standard politicians on the right tell them.
Now, because such a soul-less perpetration on good, God-loving Americans (and our Constitution) warrants a redefining of what most people think is or isn't "political" (something you and your husband claim to avoid), wouldn't it make sense to get more involved in researching the very basis for your (seemingly blind) moral support of Bush, rather than simply taking his word for what millions of us have known for well over a decade . . . that his is nothing more than a convenient political ploy? You owe it to yourselves, you owe it to our Democracy and you owe it to those who wear a uniform who thought no American President could ever send them into battle based on massive lies and . . . oil.
I hope that some posters "they don't know the issues so they shouldn't be allowed to vote" isn't another form of "don't let them vote if they don't agree with ME".
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."* ... Or vote like an Idiot ... *(Voltaire)& aikiv 07'
A Knesal ......... 'Liberal Warrior' ........ "Little Beirut"
I almost find this piece more disturbing than encouraging. The fact that so many of these people are still clinging to the "George Bush is a good man/good president because he believes in God", is frankly, scarey. Once again, he only has to declare his "faith" to appeal to the faithful. Thinking people, whether they declare themselves believers or not, seem to be able to recognise the dicotomy between what he states for the comfort of his base, and anything taught by Christ in terms of tolerance, forgiveness, non-violence, etc. Just as the crusaders went forth, emblazened with symbols of Christ, to wreck havic on the non-believers and infidels, so does our cowardly commander-in-chief send out our soldiers to wage his unholy war and delare himself to be a true believer and man of God/peace/Christ. Let's remember some of the other "men of God" in the recent news: the mega-church leader condeming gays whilst carrying on the affair with the gay prostitute, Vitter and his arrest for solicitation, Allen, again with his hand in the gay cookie jar, Jimmy Swaggarts tears, Jim Joneses ghastly Ghiana mass murder/suicide horror, and on and on. The hipocracy is staggering. I do not want any of these Men of God running my country. Keep your religious beliefs out of my government!
I am about as religious as you can get and socially conservative too. But I never believed Bu$h the inferior was Christian at all because his actions have never been Christian. Bu$h the inferior has been or is an alcoholic, drug addict, AWOL, no mercy for any poor people, executed the mentally challenged guy who wanted to save food from his last meal for AFTER the execution, war monger and liar.
He has associated with criminals in such a way that he has aided them in bribery, corruption, and obstruction of justice.
The Evil acts of Bu$h the inferior are too long to catalog. Read the words of Jesus and note the actions and compare them to the words and actions of Bu$h the inferior Pemberton.
I don't believe you are morons but it is hard to believe you are this naive and misinformed.
"Military people mostly shy away from commenting, as do their spouses, who say they would not like to cause embarrassment for their partners."
Oh great, heckuva job brain washing people. I'll never get it... go die for a lie, but embarrassed to open your mouth? What are these "military" people? Zombies? Or is it deposit your brain here then sign on this paper, now you are a soldier? Huh!!!
Let's hire a gigantic earth mover to lift New Jersey off the map and then transport it to Iraq. That should solve the US military numbers problem....and it sounds like New Jerseyians will be very happy to do time without questions. It's a match made in heaven!
1.) Mr. Price: I challenge you to find as few as 10% of Common Dreams blog contributors who EVER supported the Bush regime's invasion of Iraq. Also, please consider that some of our Common Dreams IDs are symbolic, not merely anonymous: "Gershom" is the name of one of my ancestors who served in the cavalry in 1776 (and not, BTW, while wearing a red coat).
2.) Formal education and political sophistication do not necessarily correlate. An elder whose formal education ended with eighth-grade graduation but who is a longtime community activist/advocate is much more politically knowledgeable than an MBA who only votes in presidential general elections after selecting which candidates to support from the mainstream media (or worse, political advertising!). Enough said.
3.) Regarding the issue of what makes one an independent thinker or a follower of the status quo, this leads (as always) to the heredity/environment question. Although I believe that "lone wolf" vs. "herd" status is at least partly innate, I also know from personal experience that the best way to avoid becoming a follower is to be born an "outsider" (whether due to appearance, disability, personality, and/or sexual orientation) in one's family or community of origin. Those rewarded by the status quo rarely question it, while those who are rarely rewarded by society eventually learn to question it often.
American Dream parents and their golden children may rule the nation during peacetime, but they are infrequently the people willing to REALLY serve their country by saving it when it threatens to be destroyed from within: too much of their wealth, (self-perceived) mental health, and social status are at stake. "Outsiders" can afford to have courage (often amassed for years in order to survive their day-to-day lives), which they are usually willing to share.
I have one question which still has never been answered by ANY christion or jew:
IF GOD COMMANDED: "THOU SHALT NOT KILL", how can they be religious and militaristic at the same time?
I've heard enough malarkey about "Just Wars", and all I have to say is this: At the MOMENT it was shown that the Iraq invasion was NOT a "Just War", how could it be that the "christians" did not walk off the battlefield in droves??(!)
WILL SOMEBODY PLEASE ANSWER THIS FOR ME. PLEASE??
I may be all for BURNING THE FLAG OFF EVERY FRONT PORCH OF EVER NEOCON, but I'm also all for POSTING THE 10 COMMANDMENTS in front of every religious small-town courthouse, just to REMIND them that the brainwashed cult they bought into PROHIBITS THEM FROM KILLING!
Quaggenbush wants us to listen to generals and I do-- to the smart ones like Wesley Clark who, in speaking of "the surge," draws a distinction between tactical and strategic maneuvers, the former being minor and inconsequential.
A chess player makes the same distinction between his piddly, jockeying moves and those that affect the overall picture. Anyone who seeks authority should interview Gary Kasparov both about what's happening in Russia and in Iraq.
Or one could simply inform oneself and make decisions on his or her own. I for instance just decided on a new name for the president:
"Quaggenbush." It rolls off the tongue better than "Quagbush" and recalls the Marx Brothers' Mrs. Quackenbush, a far more charming lady than Bush, his mother, his father, or his great-uncle James.
So you see I'm trying to be kind, even to someone who is blindly committing murder every single minute. (It's a failing of myself.)
I would be very happy if someone else would supplant my suggestion with a new name, one so accurate that it would stick, like "Bush's poodle" for Blair. Quaggenbush himself of course likes nicknames, "The Cobra" for Maureen Dowd, so maybe we shouldn't play his game? NAWWWW!!! we should, at the same time we imprison him.
More than house arrest is what he would do to us if given the chance-- like any tiny neocon with paucity of mindpower on the National Review's annual cruise ship.
Gershoms Horse July 20th, 2007 10:05 pm
Wow! You completely misread my post. I was responding to some of the previous Commondream post I found unleashing rude, insensitive attacks and epithets against the people represented in the above news article.
So may I square a couple things away for you, so you can understand better what I said? Okay,
Addressing your point #2)
I agree, formal education, raw intelligence, and/or shoe size has nothing to do with conformity. There are plenty of very intelligent, highly educated, incredibly rich people who are blind conformist.
I really don't care about the gray anon issue, and why people feel the need to use a pseudonym or to be anonymous online, or use symbolic, or ancestral names. As an example, I know there are some people who have professional lives that they might wish to keep separate from their political life, or others who are concerned about their privacy. I realize I overstepped when I pointed a presumptuous finger at gray anon titles. In these particular cases, I just think calling people idiots and morons and stupid rural "this-or-that" comes off rather cheap by individuals who aren't willing to risk putting their neck out on the table. They are anon and use it to get away with rude, cheap shots.
Addressing your point #1)
When I said 75% of the population, I was talking about the entire US. 75% of the entire population of the US supported the war when Bush said "let's roll". I was not talking about commondreams. CD did not have an online poll, nor did they have interactive forum like today. I have no idea what the commondreams poll would look like. That was never my point. I decline your challenge to find 10% percent.
The last two paragraphs, or point #3) has more to do with your personal opinion on various conflicting points. I have no position or interests in challenging your personal beliefs.
Hope I cleared things up.
Rehash/ redux:
Attacking the people in the article as moronic brainwashed fools is silly when one takes into account 75% of the entire US population was gung-ho for war March, 2003. Even if someone is uneducated, unwashed, and labeled simple rural folk doesn't mean they are easily conformed. I am amazed by the epithets and self-righteous statements coming from people who won't even use their real names. I would think if someone was going to be condemning and judging other people, they'd be some shining example of member of society. You know, let he who has no sin cast the first stone kind of thinking. What is to be said of the person who hides in the shadows and throws spit-wads?
how's that? did my point come across better the second go around?
As long as there are people out there who still believe
"Bush is a good man and has been a good President" then
America is f(*ked. And I'm sorry folks but I just don't
believe Bush gets advice from God. If he does, it has to be
the Old Testiment God, certainly not the caring God that Jesus speaks of. Personally after seeing the things done in the name of God and/or religion in the past six years I can't get out of a room fast enough if someone even mentions they are a Christian. "Bush Christians" scare the bejesus out of me.
You all should stop dissing these folks. They are obviously scared of their own government. The Germans were like that too, right up until 1946 when they were liberated by a coalition of antifascist forces.
Get back on track folks, focus now! The war on Iraq is a WAR CRIME.
Say it slowly to get a real sense of it
"The war
on Iraq
is a
War Crime"
War Crimes are conducted by dupes at the behest of WAR CRIMINALS.
War Criminals were first tried historically at Nuremburg Germany by USA Military and Allied forces.
War Criminals are currently brought to justice at the Hague, Netherlands.
War Criminals are currently not brought to justice
anywhere. I haven't read or heard anything about Bush or
Cheney being on trial.
Natureboy, it's easy to answer your question. I asked a Catholic friend how she could support the death penalty when Christ opposed it and she said it's a different world now. I think she sincerely believes Christ would agree with her. People believe and justify what they want to believe. recreate the world to fit your value system - isn't that what Rove is doing?
Those people actually think they are being good American's by waving flags around. If you want to be a good American you have to keep a close eye on what your government is doing. That's part of the deal.
If those people had any idea what their government has been up to. Maybe their better off not even knowing. They should stay out of the way of people who do though.
Oh yeah - Dubya's a good and decent man all right. Three years ago this month and he was campaigning up at the front of his bus, standing in the stairwell as it rolled down a Pennsylvania highway. Beside the road stood a married couple with one holding a sign protesting the administration's environemental policies. What did the good and decent leader of the free world do? After reading the sign, the POTUS raised his index finger to the couple in a universal act of antagonism. THAT dear people, by my lights, is the real George Bush. Consider as well his two lieutenants, Cheney and Rove. Enough said.
Yes, Virginia Green is a hopeless cretin babbling about Bush and God, but Charles Fisher lives in the same goddamn piss-ant town and he knows the score. And "The Australian" chose to present his photograph, looking rather shrewd and resolute, which shows they know the score, too.
this is what happens, when you get nothing but limbaugh. a little education of the facts, goes a long way, but i guess that takes a little effort. blind faith is dangerous.
One theme in history that keeps repeating itself is the idea that the topplers of an empire take on the trappings of said empire. Look closely at Rome vis a vis Greece. Well, what we have here in Amerika today are the trappings of Nazi Germany. Rampant militarism, rampant nationalism, homophobia, anti-intellectualism, fixed adherence to right-wing dogma but most especially the idea of controlling the population through propaganda. It's like the Wife-Teacher-Student in Pink Floyd's The Wall, except it's the Corporations that are controlling the government and the government controlling the (stupid) people through phony, deceitful network "news". We have become what we dreaded most: the evil empire- the fascist scum- the same kind of fascist scum that the WWII generation gave all to defeat. Anyone who thinks GW Bush is anything but "just another Hitler" at this point is dumber than dog crap and twice as stinky. And God thinks Bush is a jerk.
To White Rose:
Nice post, but the truth is that today's War Criminals live happily in places like the White House and Crawford Texas and will most likely never visit the Hague except for vacation.....
....to try War Criminals you must first defeat them. Stealing two elections in a row has assured the Nazis on the right that this defeat will not come from within. And Amerika's use of WMD's throughout the latter half of the 20th century (see especially Hiroshima and Nagasaki, but also firebombs in Dresden and Tokyo, napalm in Vietnam and depleted uranium currently in use) and today helps to dissuade the other world powers from toppling Amerika from without.
kathydat:
you're correct: people believe what they want to believe; hear what they want to hear; justify and rationalize; then grip it to the gruesome end and call it God's plan.
BOBBI DYKEMA: your post is marvelously enlightened, however, I have to say I still think it's important to demarcate that all important political line in the proverbial sand between religion and political policy for the reasons that EPONA mentioned.
Nature Boy: I have explained in MANY past postings how the attributes of a warrior god have come to replace what persons trained to give their oaths of allegiance to patriarchal religions take as "the supreme deity." This deft distortion is what allows the unconscionable policies of war and destruction to remain masked by beliefs in religious piety. The way I see it, there is no more dangerous spiritual trespass than this one. It is almost impossible to wake up the faith-based with TRUTH these days because over centuries an indoctrination process has been deployed that has removed what should have been a moral disconnect (felt as conscience) between the agreed upon policies of church/state and those that would align with the will of heaven. The very order of the planetary spheres suggests a Divine Order. I do NOT see fundamental antipathy between many assertions of science with the fact there is INTELLIGENCE to the great design plan. Just because our narrow mortal intellects are insufficient to penetrate the mysteries of the Infintie does not mean these cease to exist. However, EVERY genuine spiritual master and/or avatar that spent time on this planet of primitive egos sought to teach the ways and means to transcend war and antipathy. What has instead resulted is warring teams using the names of their alleged spiritual leader in the way the crusaders brandished religious symbols on their breast plates. Evolving the human race is the work of the great master teachers, but in my view, the old religious mundane leaders do all that they can to hold minds hostage to ideological feedback loops that thwart all intended progress. This is why we see history repeat. Some might argue that aggressiveness is now such a strong component of human DNA as to virtually guarantee the redundancy of war and conflict. Better teachings that provided models to transcend the age old ism divisions would help, but of course, the powers of our world are INVESTED in the status quo... as the waters rise with melting glaciers and the grid of commerce is interrupted, perhaps an interruption in the steady transfer of profits will change their view. Would that hour NOT be too late...