In response to the first post...

I don't even think we should give Bush the same acknowledgment as Hitler. Bush is just a puppet and a conniving coward. I think Bush is worse, not only because of the deaths, but because of the lives that he will affect by the looming burden of recession placed on our future generations and by putting such power in the hands of corporations via lobbyists.

Bush's legacy in the Middle East will be as Hitler's in Europe. The conference proposal is no more than domestic political theatre promoting the illusion of action.

Don't worry. The Middle East Plan is on schedule, along with Bush's legacy. After all, he and his buddies are writing it.

George Bush:
Like a Rock,
Only Dumber...

Impeach BOTH George W. Bush and Richard Cheney for high crimes and misdemeanors.

Call House Speaker Nancy Pelosi TODAY:
202-225-4965

HELP!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kE_HW76kuAA

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Impeach the criminals
HR 333 Call/email your congress person and dear Nancy today.
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Dennis J. Kucinich

'"We have been very clear that we are not willing to discuss at this stage the three core issue of borders, refugees and Jerusalem," Miri Eisen, a spokeswoman for the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, told reporters.'

Why bother attending, then?

The only plan that means a diddly is alreaddy on the books under ABC.

A, Get the Israelis the hell out of Gaza, West Bank and Gholan Hts ASAP. No ifs and or buts. as per UN Res.

B. Get the Palestenian refugees the hell out of Lebanon and back to their original homes. ASAP.

C. Divide Jerusalem into 3 religious provinces like the Vatican City and guard them with UN Forces.

There is NOTHING TO DISCUSS. Unless Israel wants to be paid billions to do ABC for a peaceful settlement.

Until the United Ststes has the courage and common decency to force Israel to obey international law and the myriad number of UN resolutions that it continues to ignore, there will be no peace or justice in the middle east.

Bush's plan was never "raveled" in the first place; how could it unravel?

A peace conference organised and chaired by Condoleezza Rice? That is as silly as sending John Bolton to be the UN representative.

It's a shame that this goofy bastard is taken seriously because he is the president.

Which part of the and foreign and domestic policy of Bu$h the inferior would be taken seriously if it was presented to the people for a vote along with competing policies.

yknot - In your "Just" solution, why did you ignore the 900,000 Jews who were expelled from the West Bank and Arab countries since 1948?
Are you implying that Jewish refugees should not have have rights as Palestinian refugees?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Quarter
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

vets, have you actually read any Middle Eastern history, beyond your average potted Zionist Primer?

Tell me if the Lavon Affair rings any bells. I think you'll find most formerly Egyptian Jews found it difficult to be an Egyptian Jew after that. Again, was Amir Peretz, Israel Minister of Defense during the Second War on Lebanon, expelled from Morocco? Ask him.

As far as I know, the Syrian Jewish community wasn't expelled. Their problem was quite the opposite - the Syrian national paranoia meter had shot off the scale, and the Syrian government put restrictions on their travel rights. When those restrictions were relaxed during the late fifties-early sixties, naturally the Syrian Jews left.

There are consistent allegations that the Yishuv in Mandatory Palestine was active in increasing the friction between the Iraqi Jewish community and the rest of the Iraqis, including bombing several synagogues, just to get them sufficiently riled and frightened that they'd leave en masse.

Of course, there were quite a number of Iraqi Israelis who took part in the recent Iraqi elections - didn't you know that? If it's good enough for the Iraqi Israelis, it is good enough for the Palestinians. Otherwise the demand for equal treatment is farcical.

Tell me please, why haven't the Palestinians been permitted to take part in Israeli elections? The 1948 Nakba was an electorate gerrymander - so I'm tempted to regard all subsequent Israeli elections as a farce - because, like the 2001 Florida presidential elections, they took part without the participation of a significant part of the electorate.

vets.

Good point. As soon after the Palestenian refugees are resettled in their original homes/land Jewsih refugees should be also.

By the way vets were are those 900,000 Jews that were expelled from the West Bank living as "refugees" at the present?

I think vets has a valid point. The egyptian jews did not "find it difficult to stay after the Lavon affair" they were EXPELLED
(except for the 1000 that found themselves in concentration camps)just for being jews. As far as the rest of the middle east, the jews were either expelled outright (libyan jews had to leave with one suitcase and no more than $50)or left because of increased persecution, murders, and restriction of their rights. To pretend that these thousand year old jewish communities just decided to pack up and leave because they wanted to live in Israel is just dishonest. They were forced to leave, often with nothing, as punishment for Isreal- even though they had nothing to do with it. An injustice just as grave as that suffered by the palestinians. Unlike the Palestinian reception by the other Arab countries, they were absorbed by Isreal and the countries of western Europe.

vets sigma you come off as gullible stooges.

Why pit jew against jew? for the sake of Zionism? (a lovely story but still a lie).

Considering the reactions of Iranian Jews to Tel Aviv's offer of cash inducements to leave Iran, I would say you are spreading disinformation.

FYI the Jews of Iran (60000 souls plus) turned down the offers of Isreal and sent to Tehran oaths of loyalty instead.

DuraMater, yes, I know something about the Middle East History.

I know about the Lavon Affair, where Egyptian Jews spy for Israel during the late 50s.

What's your point? That if 10 Jews spy for Israel, All Jews in the Islamic countries should be ethnically cleansed?

Did you know that Israeli Arabs (Palestinians with Israeli citizenship) helped suicide bombers, and transferred information to the Hizballlah during the last war? Would you advise Israel to treat all 1.2 million Israeli Arabs same way as all the Egyptian Jews were treated?

vets quit talking crap

isreal jews use Canadian passports to commit murder and mayhem around the globe. They have been caught twice both times apologising profusely and swearing never to do it again. No Canadian jew has any need to be fearful as a consequence. We, (like all muslims have historically been) are highly tolerant of human differances.

So cut the crap, remember the USS Liberty!

I thought this was a "discussion" board. Not a "everyone has to agree" board. I must have been wrong.

White Rose, "cut the crap, remember the USS Liberty,"

I fail to see how the USS Liberty, or any other case of friendly fire fatality, is related to the descussion here.

White Rose - We, (like all muslims have historically been) are highly tolerant of human differances.

No one is innocent, Muslims are no different.
Check this historical "highly tolerance" by Muslims:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus

The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese....

Israel unwilling to discuss borders! What a surprise as they continue to settle the West Bank. From Israel's point of view, they already have an eastern border--it is called the Israeli-Jordanian border.

jon
Connecting the dots: from human behaviors to ecosystem decline
http://StudentsForTheEarth.org

"The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis" ....vets.

This is a lie. During the Mougal Period the Persian's (under Akbar the Great and 5 other rulers) were extremly tolerent. Of all the occupations forces in India, this was the most benign. A large part of India's tourist attractions are of Mogual India, including the Taj Mahal.

During the transition period after Independnce the fighting and killing was pretty much equal between Hindus and Muslims.

For for greatest destroyer of other people, I'm afraid to say that award goes to the Chritians.

Hi maggie50,

This turns out to be different descuttion than the original article. (Should the Middle East peace conference includes subjects such as borders, refugees, Jerusalem etc. or should these subject wait for future times)

However, I wish to set the records straight:
If you would have read the link I gave above, you would have seen that the it said that The Mughal Empire was marked by periods of tolerance of non-Muslims. However, some of the othe Muslim rulers in India, such as: Arabs, Mahmud of Ghazni, The Delhi Sultanate, Muhammad Ghori, Qutb-ud-din Aibak, Iltutmish, Firuz Shah Tughlaq, Vijayanagara have helped "reduced" the hindu population by 80,000,000 people.

That is more than what the Christian Spanish did in America, more than what deadly Atheist regim did (such as Nazi Germany, Stalinist USSR or pol pot), And more than what Muslims are doing today in Sudan.

vets,

I don't read Wikipedia. History written by biased amatures is not my idea of a confirmation of fact.

For many years I have taught the history, culture and religion of many Eastern Countries. This includes the Far East, Mid-East and Near-East. The history I hear from the pro-Israeli bloggers and commentators is mind boggling. Making up your own history and repeating it over and over again does not make it true.

I know the complete history of Israel from it's conception in 1896 by Theodore Herzal to the destruction of the democratically elected Hamas Government in 2007.

It is not a pretty history, and compared to all the other countries in the region, it has little to contribute to the arts, achitecture and cultural enlightenment. As a tourist, you go to see sights that are over 2000 years old. Israel is spending to much time and energy on the destruction of the Palestinian people at the expence of the advancement of it's own people.

vets, you're overreacting.

"What's your point? That if 10 Jews spy for Israel, All Jews in the Islamic countries should be ethnically cleansed?"

My point was that firstly the Yishuv, and then Israel later, made matters much, much worse, by activities like planning the terrorist bombings, and employing - in this case - some Egyptian Jews to do the dirty work.

In any case, you haven't answered my question about Amir Peretz, have you? If someone migrates voluntarily, under no pressure, when does that become "ethnic cleansing"?

"Did you know that Israeli Arabs (Palestinians with Israeli citizenship) helped suicide bombers, and transferred information to the Hizballlah during the last war?"

Well, this is the first time I've read this allegation. Precisely how did they transfer information to Hizbullah? And when, and where? And helping suicide bombers - again, the Middle East at this time is a boiling cesspool of allegations, and the Israelis seem to take part just as gleefully as the rest. Your sources, please.

"Would you advise Israel to treat all 1.2 million Israeli Arabs same way as all the Egyptian Jews were treated?"

As you might be aware, Egyptian Jews were still valued members of Egyptian society right up till the Lavon affair. After that, this went haywire. When what is now Israel was first settled by the Zionists, they made it quite plain and clear that they had no wish to tolerate Arabs. And the Yishuv in the form of its armed forces - haGanah, LEHI and ITZL - put that intolerance into action. Occasionally it boils up again - you remember anything about the event known to the Israeli Arabs as Land Day? Do you know how it happened?

And of course, Israel _does_ have people espousing ethnic cleansing even today:

Haaretz Last update - 01:34 12/09/2006  "MK Effi Eitam (National Religious Party - National Union) raised a storm of outrage yesterday
when he called for West Bank Arabs to be transferred and for Israeli Arabs to be ejected
from politics."

Thank you maggie for being honest.

I never hid the fact that I have relatives living in Israel, and that even though I don't always agree with its government and with their treatment of the Palestinian people, I do want to see Israel survive.

The truth is sometimes more complex than the black and white picture you paint. I don't agree with your culture judgment. I urge you to research how many books and scientific research were conducted in Israel, which is a leader in the fields of medicine, agriculture technologies, renewable energies, and unfortunately also in defense. Did you know that almost all the solar and geothermal power stations in the states were build by Israeli companies? Do you know that Israeli water distribution systems adopted for desert conditions and conservations, help to feed millions in china and Africa?

No one dispute the fact that the Hamas was democratically elected. Yet, it is a racist movement, who seek no compromise. Their official final goal is to destroy Israel. You should listen to what the Hamas say, and read the Hamas charter before you pass judgment. The Nazi party was also democratically elected in Germany. Yet, I justify the steps that the peace loving people of the Soviet Union, UK, USA, Canada and France took to removed them from power. (Not that I compare the Hamas to the Nazis which were far wose)

vets,

I do know what Hamas says and how they started (another Moussad misadventure).

I have no intention of writing every fact of every country I know in this commentary.

I didn't expect you to agree with my cultural judgment nor to expect you to face reality. Your preaching to the wrong web-site. You'll get no converts to your revisionist history here.

Sheikh Ahmed Yassin founded Hamas in 1987 as an offshoot of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

You chose to omit nearly 4000 years of Hebrew - Jewish history, The base for Islam and Cristianity, yet you call it "your revisionist history".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew

OK. If filtering out any diversion of your dogma makes you happy... So be it.

Bush is trying to ass-wipe his "legacy" with a poorly-timed event, a poorly-conceived series of lost agendas, and a politically inept set of leaders who want little to do with his legacy.

The region is a disaster and he wants somebody else to carry the burden of the lost cause. The more hot air that is devoted towards the event, the less he will feel responsible for its demise.