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The War Debate
As we just heard from Bruce Fein and John Nichols, our country is in a constitutional crisis that could change the nature of our democracy. There was a sense it earlier in the week as the Senate debated what to do about the war in Iraq. Here are some excerpts.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN: Do we continue to send our kids into the middle of a meat grinder based on a policy that is fundamentally flawed? I don't think there are a dozen Republicans on that side of the aisle who agree with the President's strategy.
SEN. GORDON SMITH: Some of my colleagues have said just cut off the funding. I have felt that dangerous and dishonorable. President Bush has said stay the course, and I find that troubling.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM: This is a democracy that's less than four years old. Their constitution's less than 18 months old. The army and the police force four years ago was there to support the dictator, not democracy. So if you expect from the ashes of the dictatorship a functioning democracy in four years, I think you're sadly mistaken, because it took us 11 years to write our own Constitution.
SEN. JOE LIEBERMAN: We were elected to defend our beloved country, it's security and it's values. All that is on the line in Iraq today. So I appeal to my colleagues, let's not undercut our troops and legislate a defeat in Iraq where none is occurring.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN: When you lose a war, the consequences of failure are far, far more severe on the military than the strain that is put on the military when they are fighting. It is a fact. It is a fact of military history. It is a fact of the war that we lost in Vietnam, which took us well over a decade to restore any kind of efficiency in our military.
SEN. BARBARA BOXER: After this weekend's violence, senior Iraqi officials called on Iraqi civilians to arm themselves and fight insurgents. That's from the government. They're not telling the people this government will protect you, the Americans have drained 300,000 of us, no, we're ready to protect you, no. The answer is arm yourselves so that when the insurgents break down your door you can kill them before they kill you. What a situation.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN: I welcome this debate, as I said earlier. I think it is important to inform the American people. I think it is important to have a respectful exchange of views. And I will continue to respect the views of the Senator from California, but I will tell her that I have seen this movie before, and I have seen what happens when we have a defeated military and we have people who assure us that a withdrawal is without consequences.
SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN: This administration has not made, when given a choice, a single correct decision on Iraq. Hear me. That is a bold statement. I cannot think of a single decision when they have been faced with a choice that they've made the right choice. I cannot think of one. Way back, when the President asked me why I was calling for Rumsfeld's resignation, and the Vice President was in the room, in the Oval Office, I said: With all due respect, Mr. President, Mr. Vice President, if, Mr. Vice President, if you were not a constitutional officer, I would call for your resignation too. He looked at me and said: Why? I said: Because, Mr. President, name me one piece of advice either Rumsfeld or Cheney have given you in Iraq that has turned out to be right. Name me one. One. One.
As that debate revealed Congress is polarized and paralyzed. And down at the other end of Pennsylvania Avenue, President Bush still was insisting Congress should stay out of the war. he and Vice President Cheney are holding out for better news from Iraq in September. But when September comes, you can count on more appeals for delay or excuses. that's the formula for perpetual war -- what our founders most feared, because it would turn our Constitution on its head, throwing off the checks and balances so crucial to liberty, and leaving all power in an imperial executive. Already the war in Iraq is in its 5th year, costing $10 billion a month, with the casualties mounting. All week a line from the poet Marvin Bell floated through my mind:
"What/shall we do, we who are at war but are asked/to pretend we are not?"
What shall we do? Impeachment hearings are one way to go, as you heard Fein and Nichols say. In the meantime, those of us in public television have an obligation to make sure viewers like you stay in the loop. I wish we had carried the congressional debate this week in full -- all of it -- in prime time. When we broadcast teach-ins on the Vietnam war, and the Watergate hearings during the trial of Richard Nixon, it was a real public service -- the reason PBS was created. We should keep Iraq in prime time every week -- the fighting and dying, the suffering, the debate, the politics -- the extraordinary costs. It's months until September. This war is killing us now, body and soul.
That's it for the journal. I'm Bill Moyers.
Bill Moyers is the managing editor of the weekly public affairs program "Bill Moyers Journal," which airs Friday night on PBS.

56 Comments so far
Show Allpfutrell, we've got one week. How now? Any who have concrete ideas, please go to http://www.clotheslineblog.com and leave an email or a comment. We gotta get moving.
As long as Bill Moyers is on our side I know we have a chance.
The bottom line is, these hypocritical and morally corrupt bozos are leading us and the rest of the world towards total, endless war.
Do we really need to follow?
Excellent show last night - thanks!
I used to curl up at night with Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Paine, or Benjamin franklin as my companion. In the morning I would wake up and write with their courage and wisdom as inspiration.
Now, when I read the Declaration of Independence and look about me, I see the same conditions that pertained in 1776, but dictated by our own self anointed king and his ministers.
I look around for the patriots and statesmen who can liberate us from the new King George and find that their numbers are few and they are marginalized by the enormously powerful forces that support the king. His rewards to them have been so great that they have bought out the means of information and turned them into vehicles used solely as an opiate for the people and a propaganda arm for the king and his minions.
Jefferson said that an educated populace was one of the greatest defenses against tyranny. He advocated an educational system available to all, where one could become educated to the highest level he was capable of.
What do we have now? Education consists of teachers instructing kids how to memorize standard tests so they can get a passing grade and the school continue to exist. God help the teacher who stimulates independent thought in her class, or expresses an opinion that is not a regurgitation of what the school board has told her to say.
Higher education has become so expensive that only the very wealthy can afford it. Others must go into debt for life to have access to the "privilege."
The idea of a Supreme Court, with lifetime appointments, was to have a Supreme Court that was beyond politics, that would rule solely on the Constitutionality of laws brought before it. The judges were to have been picked from the absolute cream of the crop of American Jurisprudence. Lower court judges of renowned decisions, legal scholars from the best universities. It was a tremendous honor to be nominated and required great soul searching by the nominee as to whether he was equal to the challenge.
What do we get now? Political lackeys, some of whom have little or no actual judicial experience, or who have expressed contempt for constitutional values, but who are slavish followers of the political philosophy of the king and his minions. The selections are quickly approved with a token examination and the lackeys get their lifetime appointments. The result has been that our freedoms and civil rights, fought for and died for by so many are being rolled back in favor of the kingdom of the "Unitary Executive."
The new king's parliament and house of lords, the House and Senate, have become a group of sycophants and lackeys who have but one desire, to hold their place at the public trough forever. They have learned that making waves may jeopardize that place, but they quickly learn how to make meaningless but high sounding legislation to pacify the populace, while protecting the status quo.
Those of honesty and character challenge this group at their peril. Success has often lead to assassination, physical or character.
There are still a handful of people who make Jefferson's statement true, but they are few and far between. Jefferson said, "If I had to choose between government without newspapers, or newspapers without government, I would unhesitatingly choose the latter."
Bill Moyers is one of that precious few remaining and I pray he will continue to be the gadfly and conscience of the nation.
Senator Lindsay Graham says it took eleven years to write our Constitution.
Yep, and it has taken only six years for Cheney / Bush to finish killing it. If a Democracy in Iraq is like the one we now have, God help them to raise Saddam from the dead so they can keep it.
The discussion with Fine and Nichols and Moyers that took most of the hour preceding the section quoted above was a stunning, enlightening, and inspiring seminar on the constitution, impeachment, and the DUTIES AND OBLIGATIONS of the congress.
Bravo, Bill, Bruce and John for one of the finest hours I have ever seen on TV.
Please, PBS, re-run it on prime time, or offer it to the other networks; or CommonDream, the text would be long but worth publishing here.
Sunshine, thanks for the post and the link.
Two things are clear from these debate clips: John McCain cares more for the military's reputation and morale than he does for the Constitution or the republic; and Joe Lieberman has been drinking the Kool Aid.
You
are
MISTAKEN.
All IS going as planned.
We are right where the neo-cons want us.
The last few years have just set the stage for their BIG plan.
They WANT World War.
Soon they will be commanding an army of millions.
They will offer citizenship in exchange for military service.
They will target all minorities, since they can't tell a Mexican from a Muslim.
And don't forget Black Muslims (Ooh scary!)
They will probably disapear millions of people and claim it was the "Rapture".
Ok, well,... their plan isn't going exactly like they wanted. They thought torture, atrocity, and racism, would have baited at least Iran and Korea, maybe Syria or Turkey into throwing down. But they seem to be either more honorable or realistic than we thought.
And with poverty driving the poor of our nation into military service or private mercenary contracts, more likely, we will have an endless supply of meat for their grinder.
Welcome to the New World Order
Calling John McCain a war hero is like calling William Calley of My Lai fame a war hero. The only difference between them is that Calley did it in the ground while McCain did it from the air. The best thing that's happened to "Mr. Straight Talk" this week is that his Florida campaign chairman was caught in the stall of a men's room soliciting sex from what he thought was a male prostitute. Turns out the hustler was an undercover cop. Bye, bye, Johnny boy and good riddance.
Don't forget the US military 'victory' in Panama, where we captured Noriega, and killed some 1-4 thousand civilians. The numbers vary on who you ask.
Until people demand integrity and honesty, they won't get it. Not from the democrats or the republicans.
www.NotOneMore.US - Take the Pledge for Peace
Mr. McCain talks about the damage done to a military when it loses a war, as we did with Vietnam. What Mr. McCain does not address is that it is not the LOSS of the war, but the war itself that causes the damage to the military. In both cases, we were led to war under false pretenses, told, as a nation, that we were defending ourselves, our freedoms, our very way of life, and in both cases these were absolute LIES. In both cases, we were willing to keep spending our youth to feed the war machine, and in both cases we accused, not those who spent the lives, but those who mourned them. Would Mr. McCain pretend that we had a right to be in Vietnam? Would he pretend that it was not our meddling that caused such horrors? We he pretend it was not our installation of puppet governments that drove South Vietnam into Hell? Would he pretend that our policies of isolating the guerilla by EXTERMINATING peasants was in the service of a democratic society? Would Mr. McCain DEFEND Vietnam? Would he defend our continuing the French colonial yoke we promised to remove during WWII? Because, Mr. McCain, it is NOT the defeat that tore the SOUL out of this country; it was the use of patriotic slogans, the call to our loyalty and service for global democracy FALSELY given, the SOULLESS spending of our youth in the name of EMPIRE that tore the soul out of this country. It was a pair of presidents, just like the present president, who thought the executive was ABOVE the LAW. It was ruthless politicians spreading FEAR for financial and political gain that tore the soul out of this country, Mr. McCain. Not DEFEAT. The American people would stand behind our country in a righteous, necessary war. We have proven that we are not a people afraid of sacrifice, but that does not mean that we should BE SACRIFICED whenever greed sees an opportunity. It is not withdrawal that will destroy this country, or demoralize the military, Mr. McCain: It is the vampires like you who would suck our blood from our bodies and spit in into the sands of Iraq that will destroy this country. It is men like you, willing to destroy use our principles against us, willing to destroy our goodwill across the globe that will destroy this country. What a ridiculous argument that it is better to let our troops keep killing and dying because we are better served by WINNING an IMMORAL war than by getting out and returning to principles of truth. Justice, Democracy. At this moment, Mr. McCain, we are MURDERERS. You are making our sons and daughters MURDERERS. They will be DESTROYED by the NIGHTMARES of what they have DONE. Lied to, or led kicking and screaming into war, it makes no difference. They will know, Mr. McCain, that they were part of the horrors of this administrations LUST for WEALTH. They will know that the KILLED in the name of GREED. They will see the children they killed and orphaned for the REST OF THEIR LIVES, Mr. McCain. There is no healing for what we have done to the members of our military. There is no healing for what we have done to the people of Iraq, but you would have us CONTINUE this war because VICTORY is the SALVE for KILLING in the name of GREED? Mr. McCain, you should be ashamed.
Along with the special place in hell for your affliction with Bush, Cheney, etc., we've reserved a special place in heaven for every concerned American who now pushes relentlessly for impeachment with no further delay. For the sake of all that Washington, Jefferson, Tom Paine and I and so many others labored to give you, impeach, impeach, impeach!For the scientific, psychiatric, and religious case against Bush, Cheney, and both their enablers and followers, see the book that's just gone online with internet book sellers in the U.S., Europe, and Asia. The title is Bankrolling Evolution: Money, Politics, and Science. For established psychiatric diagnoses of Bush, Cheney, enablers and followers, see chapter Ten, the Madness of King George and the Case for Revolution. For scientific proof that Bushist policies actually drive America backward in evolution, see chapter thirteen, The Global Sounding. For the universal moral indictment, in The Global Sounding Moral Code in End Documents, see how Bushist policies violate core rules worldwide for progressive faiths. Act now! That this one nation under God shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, for the people—as the good Abe Lincoln warned—shall not perish from the earth."
Benjamin Franklin
www.benjaminfranklinpress.com
What are we suppose to learn in September that we do not already know now? Is there some break through, will peace sudden take hold and everyone lay down their weapons?
Ask it another way, what would they have to tell you in September to make you change your mind and the last question, could or would you believe them?
Impeaching Bush and Cheney would be the first step to take. The military would probably be better off as soon as impeachment got underway. The military has professional leaders and can take care of itself.
The biggest damage done to the military was by Rumsfeld, much larger than that being done by the present Iraq situation.
The present Iraq disaster was caused and exacerbated not by military intervention, but by the intervention of Bush's political team in the workings of the military (at the start of the war they for instance refused to create adequate troop strength in terms of numbers, against the advice of senior generals).
So you see, the war is not the real issue: IT'S THE MISMANAGEMENT OF THE WAR THAT IS THE PRIORITY ISSUE.
If it had not been for the Bush administration's mismanagement of the conquest of Iraq (which was without difficulty militarily) than the country would now be at peace, and the USA would be in an enviable position militarily and politically, even though the invasion has been conducted through illegal action all the way.
The Bush administration essentially lied to the American people, cheated on intelligence reports and then proceeded to subvert the military's efficiency, managing to completely bungle the entire operation, killing and injuring tens of thousands of American troops, and killing 100s of thousands of Iraqi civilians - while flushing 500 billion dollars into this self-created snafu.
McCain should look at this and admit the truth.
Even if he wants to stay in, he should be calling for Bush and Cheney to resign.
If McCain wants to win the war that Bush created out of an fairly manageable occupation, then you have to change the leadership that is actually preventing success.
That has to be done NOW.
Here's a clip of the Moyer's show on impeachment:
http://movies.crooksandliars.com/PBS-Moyers-Impeachment.mov
"Mr. McCain, you should be ashamed."
No way he ever understand it! Mr. McCain is the most shameless and despicable war criminal I ever known. He got his easy punishment (few years behind bamboo bars) for bombing, napalming, defoliation and other untold suffering of untold number of people from security of 30,000 feet altitude. His very acceptance of "war hero" status is sickening. He and his ilk is beyond the pale. I would prefer deserters like Bush and Cheney 24/7/365, for who impeachment is off the table.
In a sense, Nancy Pelosi is correct.
McCain, Bush and Cheney must be impaled.
It is time for the stones of Arlington Cemetery to rise up in mutiny.
Senator Smith, if the only way to end the war is to cut off the funding, then that measure cannot be dishonorable. Rather it is dishonorable to shrink from the responsibility of doing so, however politically dangerous it may be.
Senator Graham, circumstances in Iraq differ radically from circumstances in eighteenth century America. The "democracy" in Iraq is an artifice of an occupying foreign force, designed to be its puppet regime.
Senator Lieberman, the security and values of our beloved country are being eroded by our presence in Iraq. Continued U.S. occupation of Iraq is the defeat of our decency and common sense, and an ongoing crime.
Senator Boxer, the principal cause of violence in Iraq is the presence of U.S. troops. Some factions collaborate with the occupation forces, others don't; hence, the vengefulness. It is an ugly business, but the only way to allow it to heal is to withdraw and quit meddling.
Senator Biden, it would be impossible to give "right" advice as to the conduct of this abomination, other than to curtail it and withdraw. It has been a cursed policy from its inception.
The Congress has been complicit, "on both sides of the aisle," in building this grotesque, imperial military machine. It has been the principal economic engine of our country, which is a sad reflection on the American character. It wouldn't have had to be this way.
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."—Voltaire
Take the Pledge for Peace -
www.NotOneMore.US
libertas fugit: great name!
what do we have to do to persuade the republicans that it is their country, too, that is being destroyed from within by its executive branch? as congresspersons and senators, it is up to our elected representatives to stop the stubborn and vicious CRIMINAL chief executive and vice.
we can dream of overriding a veto, but until we impeach, we are not safe, and even then we must be vigilant. as for funding this abomination of an illegal invasion of iraq, STOP IT!
I see and feel a LOT of justified anger---- once an aquaintance told me, about himself "I don't get angry. I get even". Unless we are ready to take up arms against this evil administration, we should coldly assess our alternatives and choose the most effective. After reading earlier tonight the article on the theft of the last election in "Rolling Stone", I believe that we should all put the fear of God into the whole of Congress. I believe that enough pressure from enough people will make a difference. Not with the Present Jackass in Chief, or his immediate henchmen and handlers, but with the Congress. Press them, By the tens and hundreds of thousands and millions, press them. Make them know that if they do not impeach the lot of this "Animal Farm", that they will all be looking for jobs.. The ones they have are cushy, they like their jobs with lifetime benefits. The only thing they will respond to is pressure from so many of the people that they see the end of careers. It won't be easy, and it won't be pretty, but we must do it. Can anyone make a better suggestion? We have slept while these bastards have destroyed our reputation, our honor, our economy and our freedom. Time to wake up folks. This is something you can do besides scream in pain. If we don't do something effective and do it now, a time will come when the only alternatives will be submission or revolution.
Mary Lou, did you read the article on CD yesterday about the voyage on the ship of fools? I don't know if you can tell them anything. They seem to be on another planet altogether.
Hari's article is really spooky, but I have read similar things from others who have strayed or infiltrated Republican Land.
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/07/13/2499/
My alleged representatives get it straight from the shoulder from me, no more pussyfooting. I'm sure it gets no further than the delete key though. These people are experts at keeping isolated from those they allegedly represent. Of course, $ugardaddy Bigbuck$ has no problem at all making his demands loud and clear. AND, he is listened to and obeyed. After all, he holds the key to the trough.
Rather than heated calls for a dramatic Jefforsonian "Liberty is watered by the blood of patriots". Instead in 2008 we have the chance to have a painless and far more effective and less taumatic revolution (and without doubt, more likely to happen than a new revolution would be), by voting out as many of this do nothing enabler congress as we can. That alone would shake things up and for the better. Term limits have become necessary for our democracy to function properly. Some in congress have been there since vietnam days and they voted for that one too. We need new minds in congress... enough of this status quo congress. Cause a revolution in congress and get rid of as many of the do nothing enablers as we can and elect enough new people to allow for change to be possible.
I just read the interview with Bruce Fein and John Nichols and I applaud them for their ability to recognize the constitutional crisis for what it is and for putting the Constitution before careers, the party, and elections.
They are exactly right and I would go further and say that in some way we must also impeach the congressional members for their utter failure to uphold the constitution of the United States. But with priorities we start with Bush and Cheney- I would go further thatn Msgrs Fein and Nichols in that a oops we made a mistake is not good enough. I believe these two men have committed high crimes that have cost peoples' lives, livelihoods and freedom- things that will endure for many years and they should be held accountable.
The Congress must bring in Meirs and anyone else and order them to testify- they do not owe allegiance to a man who would be king, but to the Constitution of the United States. And they too should be held accountable if they continue to take directions that order them to disregard their constitutional obligation and the law.
Senatortombstone says "Kill 'em all!" That's pretty funny :-) I'm not sure we do satire in this country anymore, but thanks for trying :-)
John McCain wants us to "stay the course" in Iraq:
"When you lose a war, the consequences of failure are far, far more severe on the military than the strain that is put on the military when they are fighting. It is a fact. It is a fact of military history. It is a fact of the war that we lost in Vietnam, which took us well over a decade to restore any kind of efficiency in our military."
If we had "stayed the course" in Vietnam, McCain would still be rotting in a prison in Hanoi!
I'm glad McCain is losing in the polls his thinking is screwy. He doesn't think about the immorality of this war just winning it at any cost. No sacrafice of our young people or Iraqis means anything . It's all about the Corp.The Corp. The Corp. Bullshit!!
Mr. President, name me one piece of advice either Rumsfeld or Cheney have given you in Iraq that has turned out to be right. Name me one. One. One.
Don't go there Biden, because Rumsfeld and Cheney have given advice that has turned out to be right -- to achieve the goals that have nothing to do with the goal of protecting the security of the American people, and everything to do with profit for them and their co-conspirators.
So when you say, "Give me one bit of advice they have given you, Mr. President that has turned out to be right," add the caveat: "and beneficial to upholding your oath of office to protect the security and welfare of the American people."
To make my point clearer, we must stop assuming that George W. Bush has the same goals in mind that you and I, and the rest of the country does, Sen. Biden.
Name me one example, one, one.
The moment all US forces leave Iraq things will get worse. Worse than what? The chaos that now exists in Iraq that our presence there has created? If so then how are we suppossed to do thyis? More troops, bombs, bullets, and other violence? We have been doing that since a month or so after the initial invasion-rememeber "Mission accomplished"?!!--and it hasn't done anything but make matters worse.
If and when Al quaeda or some of its affiiliates decide to bring the battle to America, with what will we respond?
We'll give them truck loads of brand new hundred dollar bills Poet, that's one of the few things we still make in this country.
cheneybushsluts are cynically setting up our troops for a DienBienPhu-type disaster. 150,000 Americans won't make it out of there, transport helicopters will be shot down from the rooftops of Iraqi homes.
You will see the Green Zone blown to smitherinesfrom from all sides by Iraqi Resistance mortars and by Iraqi "traitors" inside the walls.
You will see American troop transport vehicles trying to snake their way out while being attacked 24/7 along the road to hell (aka Kuwait). They will be stalled and the troops slaughtered by millions of furious Iraqis. US airpower will be useless or will blow up our own soldiers while the Iraqis storm them.
The encirclement and panic of American troops will be cheneybushsluts' excuse for nuking most of Iraq, Iran, and Syria. This has been cheneybushsluts' objective from the outset. It will also enable them to keep Iraqi oil in the ground for decades more.
This is PNAC's idea of a "just war." This is also bushslut's gift to America. I remember how my blood ran cold when this sociopath looked into the camera, grinned his narcissistic smirk, and announced with unspeakable glee that "This is the first war of the 21st century!"... while Afghan villagers were being subjected to his murderous shock & awe.
Everytime I hear or read a quote of a politician (and others) interchanging "support for the troops" with what is really support for this war, they loose credibility with me. They are not the same at all, and I am careful to notice this bit of rhetoric and remember who used it.
Anyone that thinks that Sen. McCain "got away easy with a few years behind bamboo bars" is smoking something. He was kept in solitary confinement for NINE years, and tortured so badly that he still cannot raise his hands over his shoulders. He had his shoulder crushed by a rifle blow and was repeatedly stabbed with a bayonet. He was offered early release after the NVA discovered that he was the son of Admiral Mccain, but refused unless the other soldiers were also released. For this refusal he was beaten and tortured for weeks. Finally, he was released Five years after the initial offer with the rest of the men.
I don't agree with Mccain on most things, but to deny his bravery during this time is just dishonest.
I don't think they want the oil to stay in ground. That's why the DU aspect is the tell tale indicator of how much thought has been allowed in regard to this campaign.
"Never were much good." [our media]
I guess they can be a lot better...as Moyers and Vidal have shown.
Argument on a playground? Here's my list (which I just put up somewhere else)...
Stifling nationalism (in Mid-East; see Chomsky's "Hegemony or Survival")
Dry up the swamp
(shadow economy + economic hitmen)
Get Handle on Nukes
http://www.nti.org/
Healthcare
Electonic Voting Machines
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/book.html
http://www.fairvote.org/
Global Warming
(more economic PLANNING, curtail non-
labor-intensive constr, curtail reliance on GE crops, Permaculture,
plant trees, etc)
Jobs/Wages/Economic Bill of Rights
Graham is a hack. I would not go around comparing a middle eastern country today with this nation more that 200 years ago. What a lame excuse. It is not even in the realm of anything reasonable. If this is the best the right wing can come up with, they need a deeper think tank.
I just watched Senator Graham on C-Span, he gave a speech about staying the course in Iraq, then his was followed by the taitor LIEberman and some other Repulsivelicans. It was sickening.
However, did they ever make a strong case, if I ever do need a lawyer, I hope I get one as good as Graham. For the mis-informed, which is the vast majority, they sounded good.
"The Surge is working, our troops are doing a magnificent job, El Quida is on the run, the people in Iraq are now supporting us and our troops, we cannot leave Iraq and those that say so are traitors and don't love their mothers, and or Jesus. Sorry, they sounded good and they will be believed.
Killing body and soul.
It has already killed the US, body and soul. Not to mention what it has done to the Iraquis!
Time to bury the US--and move on. Krushchev had the right idea....
"It is time for the stones of Arlington Cemetery to rise up in mutiny."
Wow. What a wonderful, horrible metaphor.
I use the word "mutiny" sometimes, too. Just decided to look it up.
"mutiny: open rebellion against constituted authority"
Hmmmm. Constituted.
See, here's the bottom line. Those that voted for BushCo and even those of us who didn't have a right to expect them to hold fast to their very public promise -- PROMISE -- to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.
The devil is in the details, of course. But failure to protect and defend the Constitution is bedrock.
Hey, anyone read the Constitution lately? I'm not being snide. Citizens, it's time to brush up before we take to the streets.
Re war debate...more on swamp...here is a little search I did germane.
The US needs a new approach to the rest of the world, cause 15 more ground wars wouldn't change a thing. Kucinich alone mentioned entities going offshore to stay beyond/above the law...in the forum I heard.
No doubt there will be unfortunate consequences to pulling our troops out of Iraq. But, there have already been and will continue to be unfortunate consequences of them being there. It seems to me that the unfortunate consequences of staying there have already far outweighed those that will or could result from leaving, and staying there any longer will only tip the balance even further - from bad to worse.
It also seems to me that, if we get out, if we impeach Cheney and Bush, if we humbly and profusely apologize to Iraq and to the world, then we might be able to figure out some way to try to make some amends. We don't need to wait until September to find out what we already know. We don't need to give Bush another penny for the war, only for bringing the troops home and for supporting them fully when they get back.
Ten billion dollars, times a few months, should go a long way for supporting our troops here at home as they try to recover from their ordeals. Ten billion dollars, times a few months, should also go a long way toward public election financing. All those billions should also provide a lot of support for our educational system, and for our health care system, and for developing alternative energy sources and ways to conserve energy.
Ron Paul just announced that the US should be watchful of a staged terror attack by the US government.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
Watch any story or read the transcript.
last friday's show on impeachment was a god send. we've got entire "sting operations" out catching $20 crack whores, but we're gonna let these criminals re-write the constitution?
McCain is so wrong. He says he has seen the consequences of a failed military but it is not a failed military he or anyone should be talking about. Our military did not fail. It was failed policy that got our military in this no-win situation, and unless they quit making this situation what it isn't and begin speaking truthfully about what it is, we will get the same old courseless stay the course.
The failed policy? Global hegemony and securing of the energy supplies in southwest and central asia for our corporations. Our soldiers are dying for Exxon/Mobil, not for any thing nobler than corporate profits. How does it feel to know our military is and has been an arm of our corporations for quite a long time? Not too good, but wrap yourself in a flag, call for supporting our troops, and not cutting and running, in pure American bravado, and this is what the American people settle for. Endless war, assault on our civil liberties, dissolution of what little we have left of a functioning democracy, trashing of our Constitution, on and on, ad nauseum. Give me a cheese burger, American idol, and the next and increasing violent sporting event of choice. Does ancient Roman history seem to be repeating itself here?
Someone in the MSM or maybe even a Democrat please ask the Republicans why they want permanent and perpetual WAR.
Speaker Pelosi has placed herself in the position as Protector for Bush-Cheney. As long as she prevents us from using the impeachment option, she allow Bush-Cheney to point our country toward a destiny of transformation. We are prevented from functioning as a democracy. Ms. Pelosi is not only protecting the tyrants from accountability, she is also allowing the corporatists to take over the direction and function of government. We the people have been persuaded that there is nothing we can do. Our only chance to save our democracy is to change Ms. Pelosi's mind, or change the Speaker of the House. It is not too late. We the People still can act!!
Alexander D, that is just what I was thinking... why are we supposed to wait till September? B/c that will give the Admin time to stage another "terrorist attack." We've already been given the heads-up... Chertoff has a "gut feeling."
Guliper, thank you for the amazing image of the stones of Arlington rising up in protest against this evil administration. I envision them bashing in the brains of the entire cabal.
I wish I could trust that voting in 2008 will change things. I'm afraid, that the Repubs will steal the election AGAIN, or possibly even declare martial law and just not have an election.
The most bittersweet moment for me in Michael Moore's SiCKO was when he was talking with the American ex-pats in Paris and one of them said, "The government in France is afraid of the people... the people in America are afraid of the government." Demoralized, frightened, and financially overstretched, we will not demand change in any meaningful numbers or ways until it is far too late. I pray I will be proven wrong.
Moyers is back! Moyers along with Michael Moore, providing a solid one - two punch for truth and justice. (Molly would've been three, god bless her soul). It's reassuring to know there are great Americans still speaking out for what's best for America and the rest of the world. I don't get it with the rest of the public. The NEO CON MEN and GOP have been sorely wrong about this Iraq war/occupation for so long, how much longer and how must cost in blood and money? GOP'ers put their party above the country and citizens. Enough is enough, end the occupation, bring 'em home. And the spineless DEMs, get moving with impeachment.