Put Away the Flags

I support the military, salute the flag, pledge allegiance to one nation under God.

While I agree with liberals/progressives on many issues, this is not one of them. Nationalism in the hands of moderate people, is no vice.

Following Howard Zinn is a primary reason liberals lose many elections. If you do not convince the vast moderate middle, you will continue to live a political life at the margins.

National flags sprout in inverse ratio to the absence of democracy.

Bush's flag-choked public appearances have come to resemble mini Nuremberg rallies.

Huge searchlights shining into heaven will probably be added soon.

So, should I stop celebrating my culture and my religion because of all the cultural and religious wars going on right now?

Yes, we should all unite as a world community, but that doesn't mean we need to forget and not celebrate who we are and where we came from.

On second thought mim, they probably wouldn't attempt to stop it, they wouldn't have to because the editors would.

Good point, I should have written, they would turn in their graves. I still believe your script was perfect and right on target. Thanks for the chide, I'll try to be more careful with my wording from now on. love this CD.

Thank you, Evelyn, for your kind words. And thank you, D. Olson and iWarrior, whom I forgot to thank before.

But Evelyn, you say:

"Patrick Henry, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton and all of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, would sign their lives away again, to stop this type of article from being printed by anyone in this land."

They would? Uh, Evelyn, what about freedom of the press?

I agree that the only race that matters is the human race, however, it will take a world calamity for the people of the world to come together. this drivel is not worth the time it took to read. one world government is never going to happen, as the human race is too prone to self destruction. don't look for the "Federation" to pull us out of these hard times.
when are you extreme left nutjobs, and extreme right nutjobs going to realize that you are all screwing it up for the vast majority of us in the middle?!?

I agree that we need to view the entire human race as one people and equal. And I should care about the children dying in Iraq, the way I would care about children dying in the United States.... No argument there.

However, there is nothing wrong with celebrating the good history and promising future of the country you live in and represent, if you chose to. You don't have to celebrate with us, that?s your choice, but don't condemn the people who do.

Do some people take their pride too far, and use it to harder their prejudice, or lack of attention to other people, in other countries? Most likely and that's unfortunate.

I would consider myself very progressive. I am Pro Choice, Anti Capital Punishment, Pro Equal Rights( women/gay rights), Minority rights, Anti Preemptive Strike, War should always be the last resort if at all, I completely disagree with most of the major actions by are current administration, and I voted libertarian during the last presidential election. So I understand that right now you have some built up resentment towards our government.

But you have a choice to make.

You can think of all the reason's why being proud of your country is hurtful to the rest of the world, until you are a dark person with no solutions and only criticism.

Or you can remember the good that has come from this government, never perfect, and always a little late to the game, but better late then never good that has come.

I will be celebrating America's declaration of Independents from the King, The constitution, the men and women who have served this country with honor, the abolishment of Slavery, the women's rights movement, the equal rights movement, and the promise for a stronger country tomorrow.

You are invited to join me at my BBQ where I will be WEARING MY NEW USA SHIRT, I BUY ONCE A YEAR, AND SPENDING TIME WITH MY FAMILY, EATING HOT DOGS, AND WATCHING FIRE WORKS, WITH THE AMERICAN FLAG WAVING IN THE WIND OVER US. I don't worship the flag, but I do view it as a symbol of everything I love about this country.

Bon Voyage

Yeah, I don't get it, and I am mulling over going back to Norway. They have nationalism there, and I detest it, but at least they don't use it for violent means and I don't have to be afraid of the government there. I didn't think you were insulting me with the Viking comments - I responded to it though, because like so many white-washings, the Vikings have gotten this "quaint" reputation and in reality they were just common criminals.

Few things in this life are perfect. Our Flag was designed to stand for the same things that were written in our Constitution, which is about as perfect as it gets in this world.

We humans have made progress in the rights of everyone of those you mentioned and we have a still have a long way to go in those regards.

It is not just nice words, I gave my reasons and fully explained them; if they are not sasisfactory for you, it is alright with me. You have your rights and opinions, I have mine. We disagree and have agreed to do so in a rather friendly manner. At least I percieve it is.

BTW:__ My comments about Vikings were interjected as a compliment, I'm sorry if you took them otherwise. No insult was intended.

Since we have not seemed to make any progress in this debate Marikken, perhaps it would be constructive to leave it, think it over if we so choose.

My final words are. It is wrong to burn our flag and those that choose to defile it, or to coondem it, are condeming our nation. If they don't appreciate the good we have done, go someplace else, where they may find peace and satisfaction. Kem Patrick

It hasn't stood for freedom from oppression for Women, Blacks, Native Americans, Homosexual people, Latinos, the Poor. It's like you are drawing nice words from a hat, but you're not backing it up.

I dislike e-mail, there is often mis-understanding in the dialog.

First, I was joking with you about the Viking bit. I do admire the Vikings, or people from the Nordic race, for their strength of will and determination. They did do much good in opening trade in the world and in world exploration. A rather brave and bold people in my mind, who did much good in settling this country. They also did a lot of killing and plundering. So still, do we and many others.

Okay, on the flag issue. It can represent what ever anyone my choose for it to mean. It was designed to stand for freedom from oppression. It still means that for most of us. At least it does for me a my friends. Just like the Statue Of Liberty, our flag is a symbol of hope and freedom.

I agree, it has been tarnished many times. But tarnish is removable if people who respect the rights of all mankind will work to remove it.

Okay, this is what I don't get. To me it stands for the freedom and liberty of white, male invaders. It has never stood for freedom for the rest of us that I could discern. This is what I'd like to have a reasoned explanation for. Also, I don't consider myself a Viking; I deplore what the Vikings did as much as the invaders of the Americas. Same patriarchal, dominator mind sets. Not proud of either. Proud to call myself radical though.

The next time progressives lose an election and wonder why "ordinary" Americans are too stupid to vote for them, they should read some of the hate-America first bile printed here.

You don't have to wave it, when you see one, remeber why it was first sewn and what it stands for. It does not stand for Bush, or anyone else, nor for what anyone has done that detracts from freedom. It is only a visual symbol, that reminds many who do display it, may have the same thoughts that those who first designed it had. That should make sense to even a hard headed Viking. Or a good hearted Viking also.

Uh___kryan7__ Progressives and Liberals are not on the same page, we are different. I'm a Progressive and I display our flag with pride. BTW, I'm also a male, a disabled Vet who picked a nickname of an old girlfriend. Dumb!

They have flags in Canada too. Where should I move to? The moon? Oops. Somebody stuck flags up there too. Pervasive problem...

Kem, I always try to listen to reasoned arguments, but why should I take seriously emotional spewing? What are right reasons to wave a flag?

Thanks for the acceptance Marikken. Ron and I often disagree, a bit like two bulls in a pasture. But today on another site, I complemented his blog.

It's possible you have a goodly number of Viking genes in your system, hard to fight one of those guys. I do wish you would see some of the points given, that our flag is often a visual symbol of what is good in mankind. I know it is at times waved for the wrong reasons, but more often for the right ones. Cheers,___ Kem

Apology accepted. Quite honestly it is hard to seriously consider people when they emotionally throw the "go back where you came from" and "you're un-American" stuff. I consider them to be parodies; they don't have a good argument so they throw an insult out there. One person even told me to go back to Czechoslovakia, a country that hasn't even existed for something like 15 years. But to him, being geographically and historically illiterate, Norway and Czechoslovakia seemed interchangable. What can I do but laugh?

You write that you have heard that comment from many. Wonder if you've ever considered many may have a valid point and perhaps you are mistaken about some of your thoughts and words? We all make mistakes. I apologise again for offending you. I'm sorry.
Kem Patrick

Siouxrose, your points are well taken. I love to read your posts. It would indeed be wonderful if your opoinions on this subject were adopted world wide, today.

When the astronauts circle the planet, they can easily make out the continents, Islands and of course the fires burning all across the world, where de-foresting continues. One thing they cannot see, is the dividing lines we draw on maps. That is because they do not really exist. Until those lines are forever erased, humanity will continue to have racial intorerance and wars.

When this country was founded, the words penned to help eleviate those divisions were and are revered by peoples of all nations. They still are by millions. And our flag is a symbol of what those words intended. Just words, just paper__ and our flag is just a multi-colored piece of cloth. For many, it is also a visual symbol of hope for freedom, love, and peace.

Again siouxrose, thank you for being you and for being here.

Marikken, criticism accepted. I erred.

However, I do believe the debate was about putting away the flags. I sounded off because I feel that ANY who say things like you and Ron about the symbol of our nation's original purpose, and those who use words like, burn the flags, are un-patriotic and if they don't like it here, it would suit me if they left.

I also suggested you and Ron read the blog written by mim, which offered very thoughtful opinions to the debate.

A flag is just symbolicm? Indeed, as are statues such as the Statue of Liberty, a symbol of goodness, freedom from oppression and hope for millions of those who came to this country___ who also revered our flag a ssymbolthey could hoist or display at their pleasure, not hide it, burn it or criticize it. Thank You___ Kem Ptrick

Siouxrose, you are a diplomatic balm. Thank you.

Ron, thanks for your support and understanding.

Good morrow, everyone. Let's try this one on for size. Every creature loves its home, identifies with it, perhaps romances it, and seeks to protect it. But could it be that the NOTION of nation state is becoming an effete idea? It was needed, the way the child needs parents, but ultimately a new identity is to be forged. What I am suggesting is that our HOME is now EARTH and that it's becoming increasingly important as citizens, that we think in global terms. Many brilliant articles have been posted on CD regarding the perils of global "free" trade and how workers everywhere are paying the price. Many equally stunning articles have enlightened us as to the dangers of global warming and how climate may shift in quite precarious ways all too soon. WAR is being fought over oil, while intelligent writers, thinkers and inventors have shown the way to alternative fuel sources.
In times of danger, many communities learn to work together. WE on earth are a gigantic community, a web with many strands. As these strands one by one implode, the integrity of the web is placed into jeopardy.
LOVE your country but see it as a part of something greater, for it IS true that when one identifies too strongly with ONE place, people, zone, religion, ethnicity there tends to be a FEAR of other; and quite often that fear is drummed up into a basis for conflict and war.
Our nation has done things that have made it the shining light of liberty and promise in the world, and as James Caroll wrote last year in his memorial to JULY 4, its actions have seldom met its own ideal. The nation (not now, it's being stripped of every asset, moral and fiscal, in the equivalent of a FIRE sale) may yet again strive to reach towards its potentials; but a laboring process to regain our nearly lost soul is now only in its beginning stages.
Finally, because sometimes people throw barbs at one another in this forum, it's important to remember, that intelligent debate is like a vitamin for all our spirits; but character assassination is a poor tool to make one's case.

Evelyn, it seems all "good" Americans eventually break down to this: "go home to where you came from." I have been told this many times for speaking my mind (oh, and that I'm un-American - in good company with Michael Moore!). What are you thinking when you lash out like that? Certainly it can't pass for intelligent or useful debate.

I have always disliked nationalism and patriotism. I challenge anyone here to tell me what good comes of them that can't be offset by the excuse they provide for war and atrocity? As Chomsky observed when a student asked him "When will we be able to feel proud of America again." Without hesitation he said "Never". His continued response, as far as I can remember: "America is a state; and states by their nature are violent entities." Love your mother, love your brothers and sisters, love Mozart; but take a pass on the ethereal love of state. States -- and America is just one of many -- should be given short shrift, and lambasted and kicked in the shins whenever its citizens deem necessary--No, whenever they damn well fee like it!!!
Nor do I agree with iWarrior's masochistic prescription that we should all stay put, no matter what. If you find yourself in an abusive household what should you do? Stay put, fight it out, try to make it better? Hell no. I have nothing put absolute respect for people who bail. Nothing is more effective than voting with your feet. If America were evacuated of all right-minded citizens it might give this "abusive spouse" something to think about. Denk on it, whilst viewing those "bombs bursting in air".

Mim, Wonderful lesson, thank you.

Iwarrior, very well said in a few choice words.

Ron, what in the hell are you ranting about now, you and Merriken should take a trip to Norway and stay, or at least read mim's blog and give it some intelligent thought. (If that would be possible.)

Here's a writing, penned by a good Republican.

At what point then is the danger to be expected? I answer if it ever reach us, it must come from within, it cannot come from abroad. As a nation of free men, we must live through all time___ or die by suicide.

Abraham lincoln

Nothing more to be said, mim and iwarrior said it well enough. Thank you again, Kem Patrick

Flags can be divisive, but they don't have to be.

Let's all work on making this country a better place for all. I know that might sound trite, but you know what? To tell the truth, so does simply running down America. Wallowing in internalized and externalized hate just benefits the elites, the ones who truly give America a bad name. When people simply smear America from within, to me it smells of hopelessness and defeat.

Marikken: I felt the same way, growing up in the U.S.

Evelyn the man: I'm not a flag-burner, but flags are divisive. When Marikken says we should burn all flags, she is speaking metaphorically. We are all earthlings, and all this political stuff is man-made. We can do better, and being less nationalistic would be a step in the right direction.

When I saw this thread earlier today, I was appalled at the unanimous agreement with Howard Zinn that patriotism is hateful and the Fourth should not be celebrated. Thank you, New York Dana, ezeflyer and Evelyn Smith for bringing some sanity into this discussion.

People, patriotism is love of country! No more, no less. As Carl Schurz, an American by choice, said, my country, right or wrong; when right, to be kept right, when wrong, to be put right. As for the aggressive, uncritical nationalism that shouts down the opposition and invades other countries, we have other words for that, like chauvinism and jingoism.

I'm not going to defend the sins of American culture, but there's far more to the American heritage than that. Our partially realized ideal of freedom under the rule of law has set an example for other countries, and now it's time for other countries to set an example for us.

Think of it: if you have children, would you turn a blind eye to their every misdeed? Conversely, would you cease to love them if you found they were behaving badly?

We constantly hear, and rightly so, that the Bush administration has trashed the Constitution. Why make that complaint if there is nothing of value to trash?

I am a patriot the way Woody Guthrie was a patriot. Yes, he wrote about breadlines and "No Trespassing" signs, but he described these things as he saw them in the country he loved. If anyone thinks that progressive Americans cannot or should not be patriots, let them think of the patriotic songs written by leftists: "This Land Is Your Land" by Woody Guthrie, "Power and Glory" by Phil Ochs, "Something to Sing About" by Oscar Brand, "The House I Live In" by Lewis Allan (Abel Meeropol, the adoptive father of the Rosenbergs' sons), and the deeply patriotic cantata "Ballad for Americans," by John Latouche and Earl Robinson.

I will be celebrating the Fourth by listening to American music, including Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man" and "Lincoln Portrait," Ives's "Variations on America," and Ray Charles's rendition of "America the Beautiful." Then, weather permitting, I will go to a barbecue and go see the Macy's fireworks.

cruxpuppy asked: "Was it Bertrand Russel[l] who said that Christianity is a good idea, too bad it's never been tried?"

No, it was G.K. Chesterton who said, "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."

Our borders are already open, go burn your flag if it makes you fell good. Do it in front of a church, or better yet, in front of a V.A. hospital.

I was raised in Norway and growing up it always made me feel uncomfortable when people waved the Norwegian flag. I couldn't even articulate it, but I had a sense that raising ourselves through patriotism automatically lowered the rest of the world. My dislike for flag-waving continued here. Why do we need such a symbol that only divides people? I say burn all the flags, open the man-made borders, and realize we are all world citizens - then act accordingly.

Having travelled rather a lot, mostly in the third world (Europe is too stinking expensive), I would say that only in Brazil have I seen so many people of different races, religions, and sexual orientations getting along more or less at peace as in the USA. Not to deny the myriad problems in the US, but you want racism?? Go to Mexico and see how Indians are treated. Want sexism? Visit any Arab country. Want homophobia? Visit Cuba or Zimbabwe.

(And please, saying something like "there is no racism in Japan" is a cop out. Of all the great MULTICULTURAL countries, I defy anyone to find one with fewer problems than the US.)

The truth and well said! A perfect article about what is going wrong in the USA.

Damn you Nietzsche!
Putting Thich Nhat Hanh and Go F Yourself Cheney in the same sentence caused me to lose my lunch.

Excellent comments New York Dana.

I would like to add, we should also show pride in the "symbol" of what the the "majority" of the people of our country, believe we should stand for. Presently, we the people, are not adequately demanding or "legally" fighting for those beliefs and for our legal rights. We the people believe in life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, among many other just rights.

The American flag is the visual symbol of our rights, of what our country should be and often is. A flag of any nation is an insperation for the citizens of their land, as it was so eloquently penned by Francis Scott Key, when our stars and stripes so gallantly waved in the dawn's early light.

Symbolism? Yes, a symbolism that inspires people to fight for their freedom and for their rights. Fly our flag upside down if you so choose, for indeed at the present time our nation is in peril. Fly it with pride, upright or inverted, a flag which was designed, sewn and flown, LONG BEFORE this nation had achieved it's independence.

Corny? Tell that to the men who raised our flag on the heights of Iwo, or to mothers who place flags on the graves of their sons and daughters, tell it to our enemies. They would love to hear it. Burn or destroy the only visual thing we presently have left in regards to justice and freedom? For shame!

Our flag is a constant reminder, a visual symbol of what we are supposed to be, not what our leaders are presently doing. When they are long gone, our flag will wave, a symbol of The good people of America.

NewYorkDana:

Loving the people, the architecture, the land in your area seems fine as long as that love doesn't blind you and make you hate, torture, rape, steal from, kill people and exploit, pollute and despoil the earth that gives life.

One of the most important prescriptions America should follow is Mr. Zinn's exhortation for us "to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history."

Unfortunately, for an intractable segment of our population (e.g., FOX News viewers), you might as well suggest that the sun rises in the west, water flows uphill and that the mainstream media serves this country well.

Zinn and Chomsky, the best of our best, happen to be jewish. They are NEVER on the MSM, though jewish neo-cons in government are MSM staples. John Stewart and Al Franken are the only progressive jews regularly on the MSM. Notice they NEVER mention the Likudniks who are largely responsible for Iraq and are pushing for attacking Iran. In fact, John Stewart regularly pokes fun at Ahmadinejad, but no mention is made of his Likudnik counterparts. Bill Maher featured and glorified Netanyahu on his show, but no Zinn or Chomsky is EVER invited on ANY MSM show. We the people have to take back the media:

http://www.nationalinitiative.us/

"If we put our trust in the common sense of common men and 'with malice toward none and charity for all' go forward on the great adventure of making political, economic and social democracy a practical reality, we shall not fail."
Henry A. Wallace

Red - is for the blood of our victims.

White - is for the white wash we paint over our history to deny our collective crimes.

Blue - is for the blood pumping through the bio-engineered hearts of our psychotic Oligarchy, our Masters.

Peace.

Ok everybody loves Howard. Great.

So instead of being an unrepentant genocidal Aryan Slave Empire -

1. We're going to make full reparations to the Indigenous People for the genocide that "gave" us this land -

2. We're going to make full reparation to the Black people we used to build the fortunes of this country, first as slaves, then as sharecroppers, and now in prison through targeted incarceration, disproportionate sentencing, and selective enforcement of the law so they can work for Fortune 500 corps for $0.77 - $1.44/hr. Black high school GRADUATES still have 30% higher unemployment than white DROP OUTS. Fact. It is Institutional Racism just like the Kerner Commission said in 1965, hasn't changed a bit.

3. We're going to make a place for everyone at the table and we're going to reject war and conquest as a way of Living.

Howard's been out here a long time but first he got fired. When he fought for Civil Rights for Black people he scared the shit out of his employers. He was a threat to the "Natural Order". Now everybody loves him - and he's not a threat to anyone anymore. He's carefully sequestered in the shotgun shack of liberal thought with Noam Chomsky. As far from a position of domestic influence as you can get. He's also old now, like Chomsky and soon dead like Edward Said. In a country with a collective memory of about 20 minutes, they will soon be part of the past.

Who are their replacements? You? Who are you willing to scare enough to get fired? What cause are you willing to bleed for? If you're not, then you're just enjoying the ride on the bus.

Peace.

The red in the American flag is a sickening reminder to me of the blood of the countless women, children, and other innocents that has been spilled to gratify the insane and inhumane desires of the most psychotic Americans.

We need to destroy all the American flags - as a symbolic way to denounce the barbaric & genocidal ways of the past and create a new one - with symbols of our united commitment to peace, truth, justice, and genuine democracy.

====================================

"Peace will be the result of understanding and sharing,
and not the origin of them..." Djwahl Khul

===================================

"Without sharing there can be no justice;
without justice there can be no peace;
without peace there can be no future...
Man must change or die.
There is no other course."

Maitreya, the World Teacher
http://www.share-international.org

This is old news, but for a complete examination of the evil purposes for which "nationalism" is often used see Chris Hedges' book: "War Is a Force That Gives Us Meaning." Mr. Zinn's article above is could well serve as an introduction.

Thanks and a tip of the hat to abbybwood. I've never heard of the US civil flag.
Very interesting!

Amen, Howard Zinn.
No Nietzchke, This is only partly Salem Massachusets and George W. Bush is not Cotten Mather. Cotten Mather was a far superior, more educated and considerate theologian than George Bush.

God bless Howard Zinn.

Howard Zinn has his heart and emotions in the right spirit, but in the wrong place. The reality of life is that humans will always come together in groups for one reason or another, and nationalism, as Zinn describes it, is just another tool used by a group to help unify and protect that group. Great and wonderful things can and have been achieved by a group of people united under a "nationalism" banner. Conversely, great and horrible things can and have also been achieved under the same banner. The problem is not "nationalism the tool" but who is allowed to wield the tool and how it is wielded.

Before rejecting nationalism per se, We The People should strive to better select the so-called leaders we allow to control the tool.

I just fully read anon's post after my first and I agree with peaceman - outstanding. Bishop Thomas Gumbleton expressed the need for aministy if the International Court and Justice was going to take effect. For energy economy again the focus should not be on the hanging of the current Occupants and war criminals but on "Imagining" and effecting the quickest cease fire in the middle east with a Just dialogue to bring about the glory of peace to follow.

I agree with iwarrior and teachur to keep flying the flag; I'm with teachur to do it upside down in the recognized distress signal - along with my call to impeach of course.

It's heartening to have a true peace sentiment expressed here from Fran and Russ in regard to the US Peace Government site. Being peace instead of anti-war is optimal in regard to energy economics. With anti-war one dismisses the likes of iwarrior, Kevin and Pat Tillman and even the bit of warrior in us all even if we're not the quintessential warrior character - these are some of the peace movements greatest allies for carrying forward the Justice needed for peace.

Abbybwood: I look forward to flying the US Civil Flag of Peacetime - what a beautiful image and realization - Thank you.

And thanks to all here, and Zinn, for taking the action to bring that day one step closer.

A long running thread of Dr. Zinn's is to decry the "exceptionalism" of Americans who think their country is uniquely good and just.
However, based on his writings, he uses his own brand of "exceptionalism" to describe this country as uniquely evil, genocidal, repressive, class conscious, ect.

Having traveled to dozens of other countries, I can say that the second theory is as out of touch with reality as the first.

I am glad to be an American. I will fly the flag on the 4th, as my family always does.

anon,
outstanding post!

Wonderful piece, but thats no surprise coming from Zinn.

This article is quite silly. Writing as a patriotic Canadian, Zinn's criticism of patriotism and nationalism strikes me as simple and misguided. President Bush's continual invocation of freedom, democracy, rights, etc. may make people cynical about those great priveleges, but it still should not change the fact that those are extroardinary priveleges that we in the West should be proud to enjoy. We are lucky we do live in a society and a culture that ensures those rights; milions of people across the globe live in societies that treat them, or large parts of the population, as prisoners; denying them the simple rights that all individual's should have the freedom to enjoy. Zinn conflates all of America's past mistakes (and America has, of course, made many devastating mistakes and perpetrated inexcusable crimes in its past), but overlooks the progress that has been made and continues to be ensured on our behalf. Despite President Bush's unjustified infringement of civil liberties in recent years, I have faith that the United States will continue to improve and prosper in the future, preferably under a more thoughtful and compassionate leader. Depite its mistakes, America is morally superior to many countries in the world which continue to treat their people as sub-human. It is at this time of year when we in the West should celebrate what our countries have done for us and our freedoms - and continue to criticize their mistakes and errors in a sensible, intelligent and compassionate manner.

I wish everyone a great Canada Day, and to my American friends, a great Independence Day,

D. Olson

If you must put out an American Flag on July 4th, I would urge you to put it upside down. An upside down flag is a symbol of distress, and what better way to announce that this country is in distress! Imagine a whole row or street filled with upside down American flags!

Howie doesn't have to be concerned about nationalism, corporatism is doing its best to replace it. Unfortunately, a non-imperialistic nationalism has always been great when it happened. There's nothing at all wrong with love of country unless it's coupled with an irrational hatred for outsiders. All things in moderation. I'd have thought a smart guy like Zinn would have learned that by now. Shame on you, Howard, for helping the bad guys destroy America.

I disagree with Professor Zinn. Professor Zinn writes of the evil done by the early English settlers, the Spanish American war in Cuba and the horror of Nagasaki and Hiroshima. I ask where would the human race be now if we had not fought in World War II? A true patriot who loves his country desires what is best for the people of his country. I have just reread the Declaration of Independence. It is a glorious document. Why shouldn't I feel proud to be an American? Why shouldn't I love the land of my birth? I am fervently anti-war and there is much that has to be changed. Imperialism and war do not make a patriot. Just as self-loathing does not make us better human beings. Concerned citizens who love their country must take back America and steer it in the right direction. That does not mean we should never show pride in our country.

If you must put out a flag on July 4th, put the American flag out UPSIDE DOWN. An upside down flag means "distress", and what better way to face the fact that this country is in deep distress! I can imagine a whole neighborhood on July 4th all with American flags upside down flowing in the breeze.

I don't know about the flag but I sure wouldn't mind if people would do with a little less of the empty headed fireworks displays that happen in neighborhoods everywhere. Talk about sound and fury signifying nothing.

To willo:
People would be more willing and less fearful of adopting the views of 911 Truth activists if they felt they were calling for forgiveness rather than retribution and punishment.

The peace movement should call for granting amnesty from prosecution and guarantee of an ample, lifetime pension to anyone who agrees to testify on their roles in the events of 9/11, extending this offer to any members of the US government, foreign governments and/or terrorist groups involved in the planning or execution of the attacks of that day.

Additionally, individuals should step forward and volunteer to spend time working with those who give testimony on crimes they have committed so that they might be reintegrated into society.

Instead of executing Nazi war criminals we should have devoted all the human resources available to us to rehabilitating them, awakening in them awareness of the nature of their actions so that they could have come to understand that they must make amends. If they had remained alive they would have been a living testament to the transformative powers of forgiveness.

Historians and psychologists especially should come out in favor of preserving invaluable study material in the form of the opportunity to converse with the authors of unfortunate historical deeds.

A declaration of willingness to forgive would force the government's hand. If it were to arrest or make attempts to discredit someone calling for 911 truth plus forgiveness, that would be a tacit acknowledgement by the government of its complicity in the 9/11 attacks. Imagine the impact of footage on YouTube of police arresting demonstrators carrying signs reading: "I forgive you George Bush for 9/11". Perhaps even the passively complicit mainstream media could be convinced to show someone carrying a sign calling for amnesty for the perpetrators of 9/11.

If we consider ourselves morally superior to the government, we should propose actions and attitudes that are more humanitarian with respect to them than their actions have been with respect to us.

I strongly suspect that the white apartheid government in South Africa did not agree to fair elections until assured that they would not be executed or imprisoned by the black majority government when it came to power.

In "The Art of War", Sun Tzu said never to surround an enemy. If you do not leave him an out, he will fight to the last man

Finally, these ideas do not depend on the media for their dissemination. If you can convince six friends of the merit of these ideas and get them to tell six of their own friends tomorrow, each of whom tells six of their friends the next day, and so on, then the ideas will reach every person in the world in two weeks by word of mouth alone (do the math).

Personally I'd prefer to fly the United States "Civil" flag for Peacetime. You can see a copy of its history and what it looks like at the link here:

http://www.barefootsworld.net/uscivilflag.html

The flag we see flying everywhere is the U.S. "Military" flag. We are living in a military dictatorship. Until the American People DEMAND the end to U.S. Imperialism and ALL troops are brought home from around the world (as sadly only REPUBLICAN Rep. Ron Paul is saying!!), the military flag is the most appropriate. Once we are at PEACE with the world and ATONE for our sins of the highest of crimes internationally (which sadly include Katrina and 9-11), and indict ALL those individuals who are responsible, then we can fly our Peacetime civil flag again. It is beautiful.

Perhaps if we all start flying the civil flag NOW we can send a message to the world that the American PEOPLE want peace and to heal the planet! It's the military industrial corporate complex criminals and their Democrat and Republican whores on the hill who do not. Shame, shame, shame on every single elected official in D.C. who is not DEMANDING justice right now on every criminal issue all of us who write here are fully aware of.

Shame on all of them for allowing the bloodbath in Afghanistan, Iraq and Darfur to continue and for not speaking up about the 9-11 cover-up. But mostly, shame on all of them for signing the U.S. Patriot Act in 2001 without even reading it. Those who swore to protect our freedoms have turned their backs on us and stupidly on themselves as well.

This Wednesday should be a day of mourning for every Patriotic American. Certainly we have nothing to celebrate, for we are no longer "free" thanks to our so-called elected "representatives" and our own cowardly inaction.

NO, IT IS NOT MILLIONS, WE HAVE KILLED ALL OF THEM WITH THE INSANE USE OF DEPLETED URANIUM. EVERY PERSON THERE OR ANY WHO HAVE GONE TO IRAQ, ARE DEAD MEN WALKING.

Excellent article, and Mr. Zinn is one of my favorite historians, but I wish people would stop saying that tens of thousands of Iraqis have died.

About one million Iraqis have died. The excellent Lancet/Johns Hopkins study said the best estimate was 655,000 as of July 2006. They did not include all deaths such as those due to the destruction of clean water and healthcare. One in eight Iraqi children die before the age of five. How many deaths is that?

We can condemn Bush, Cheney, and any others, who are trampling upon our and any others rights or freedoms. That is our right and we should speak out, call them mass murders, traitors, demons and idiots or any other word we choose; but we should never, ever, defile our flag. NEVER___NEVER!!

Patrick Henry, George Washington, Alexander Hamilton and all of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence, would sign their lives away again, to stop this type of article from being printed by anyone in this land.

I admire and like almost everyone who writes opinions on the Common Dreams website. I take umbridge with any who agrees with this man on this issue___ he is wrong! It matters not what he has done in his life, a veteran or whatever. He is wrong to say one word against our flag.

Our flag is not a symbol of GWB or any other person, or what any man or woman has done or has not done. It is a symbol of what we should be, what our forefathers intended for us our leaders and our country to be.

Shame on this. Condemn the tyrants, do not condemn our flag. If you do, you play into their hands. Many of this writer's words are correct. Leave our flag out of it, or we have nothing, for the American flag is the symbol of what we should be, not what we have done or have become. Thank you, Kem Patrick

Is the US heading for its own Stalingrad?

A patriot is one who will defend to others' deaths the land his ancestors invaded and occupied, wherever on earth that land may be.

I agree with Mr.. Zinn. I am sad about all of this .It is very sad to realize that this country was founded on the genocide of the native people and on the backs of slaves. It is even more sad to know that it all continues today. Patriotism is too much like religion, a fantasy to gain control and power.
I see nothing to celebrate on July 4th. I will celebrate when all the troops are brought home we start to us our power and money to do good not to kill or make new weapons.

I've long ceased even marking any national unholydays, even leaving the classical station off, since the day is always devoted to national composers.

How perfectly the idea of national virtue was captured by Robert Duvall under Coppola's direction in "Apocalypse Now", when he expresses compassion by giving a villager his solders have just shot up a sip from his canteen, instantly losing interest when surfing is mentioned.

"The killing of 3,000 people on Sept. 11 becomes the justification for killing tens of thousands of people in Afghanistan and Iraq".

That is a true statement. However all the evidence indicates that this crime of 9/11 was and inside job. The people who did 9/11 are the same people who used them as reasons to launch these never ending wars. If they are not held accountable you can look for more false flag 9/11's

PJD observes:

Poet, I don't think you read the article.

Actually, Zinn has spoken of being deeply troubled by what he did during WW2 - all the innocent lives he took. I don't believe operating a Norden bombsight required the risks you mentioned, but even if it did, it was nothing compared to the "risks" of the people the bombs were falling on.

**********************

PJD--

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I in no way meant to convey that Zinn was proud of his dutoies and service during WWII--only that he did such and therefore (like John Kerry and other veterens of combat) has a more halanced point of view to be considered than the many chicken-hawks who find it easier to talk about war than to actually do it (Like our current Prez and VP.

As far as "risk" is concerned go and stuidy the casualty rates among American bomber crews during WWII. Then go look at a picture of either the B17 or B24 (which were the two main aircraft used by the Army Air Force to bomb Europe during WWII).

That nice clear bubble of plexiglass on the bottom front of the plane was where the bombadier sat and was quite a tempting target for enemy aircraft and anti-aircraft fire.

cruxpuppy:

"Was it Bertrand Russel who said that Christianity is a good idea, too bad it's never been tried? The same applies to the founding idea of the US."

I couldn't think of Russell's quote. Perhaps you're thinking of M. Gandhi's quote?

"I think it would be a good idea."

Mahatma Gandhi, when asked what he thought of Western civilization

Nationalism say's, we are all in this together. Support the US multi-national corporations, as they exploit the worlds natural resouces, looking for maximum profits. If you support this nationalism, then mayhbe, there will be a little something in it for you.

We are not all in this together. You will never be treated as an equal. After you work for them, die for them, and vote for them, you will be discarded.

Wear and display your American flags proudly: UPSIDE-DOWN!! I have done so for months and have so far received only positive comments, plus several asking what that stands for. Though I have worn, saluted and displayed and honored the flag practically every day for over 44 years, I will attend no "celebrations" this July 4th.
I cannot celebrate the delusion which has overcome our fellow citizens who still think (irrationally) that we live in the "greatest nation on earth". However, we ARE the greatest: military spenders; self-centered; arrogant; aggressive; war criminals and excel at ignorance of the real world, imprisoning more of our citizens than ANY NATION ON EARTH. So...what's to be proud of? If I do go out on the 4th, rest assured my flag will be proudly inverted; I will sing no "patriotic" songs and especially I will not pledge allegiance to a piece of cloth. My allegiance and total dedication is to Truth. How about you?

Zinn's article reminds us of John Lennon's "Imagine"....imagine there's no country.... no religion too....nothing to kill or die for....

"I double dog dare anyone to walk up to Howard and call him unpatriotic or yellow–I'll bet he could still deck them if he had a mind to..."

Poet, I don't think you read the article.

Actually, Zinn has spoken of being deeply troubled by what he did during WW2 - all the innocent lives he took. I don't believe operating a Norden bombsight required the risks you mentioned, but even if it did, it was nothing compared to the "risks" of the people the bombs were falling on.

Having just read Walter Isaacson's biography of Einstein I was reminded how the idealists of "the Greatest Generation" experienced the consequences of diseased nationalism very directly and in reaction to the carnage of global war implemented the United Nations as an antidote.

Howard Zinn still carries that torch, though today one does not find that point of view as prominent as it was in his day.

Enthusiasm for a world government through a UN structure envisaged by an Einstein is not notable today and many idealists talk of an end of imperial ambition, not of nation-states.

The perception today is that the nation state is a protection from a monstrous New World Order, a global government that overwhelms both national and personal sovereignity.

The revulsion against nationalism has created the European Union, and though the European states have surrendered their disparate currencies in favor of the euro, they are not so willing to sacrifice national and political sovereignity. They do not want an EU Constitution.

The end of national sovereignity means the end of representative government.

Nationalism can be beneficial or pathological. It is currently pathological in the US because it has been infected with imperial ambition. That pathology is not caused by love of one's country. It is created by the failure of the democratic spirit and the emergence of anti-democratic leaders.

Why the spirit of self-government fails and why anti-democratic leaders emerge is another subject, but nationalism per se is not the cause.

Zinn is "imagining" like John Lennon. No "country". No religion, too.

Wouldn't that be cool, a planet of global citizens, white, black, brown, red, yellow, all blending nicely together in the global melting pot, no boundaries, no passports, no standing armies, etc etc....

The founding documents of this country embody the dream of human freedom and unalienable rights, regardless of how poorly that dream has been realized in the sordid history that HZ has labored to reveal.

Was it Bertrand Russel who said that Christianity is a good idea, too bad it's never been tried? The same applies to the founding idea of the US.

To state the matter succinctly, nationalist pathology is the failure of the will to be sovereign, personally, and nationally. Without sovereignty there is no freedom.

Howard Zinn is as American as apple pie. That is no way detracts from his allegiance and contribution to the human race.

"God grant, that not only the Love of Liberty,
but a thorough Knowledge of the Rights of Man,
may pervade all the Nations of the Earth,
so that a Philosopher may set his Foot
anywhere on its Surface, and say,
'This is my Country.'"

Benjamin Franklin
4 December, 1789

After the Dylan, put on some Phil Ochs; "The Power and the Glory" is especially appropriate. Then ask yourself why our 40-year-old protest songs are still relevant and what become of our dreams for a better world.

THANKS,RADICAL CONFUCIAN, YOU NAILED IT.I REMEMBER WELL THE FIRST TIME I HEARD DYLAN SNARL-"I CAN'T THINK FOR YOU,YOU GOT TO DECIDE...." SEEMS LIKE YESTERDAY.HAPPY 4TH.

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."

Not necessarily. Shallow patriotism perhaps.

Howard Zinn has been America's teacher;
he taught our children and they came home to teach us!

Nationalism does harm because it states not simple pride but superiority.

Manifest Destiny does harm because it states a "god-issued" license to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority.

And violence is the tool by which both are exercised.

We have an impossible history to overcome in America:
the slaughter of the native American whose land we have stolen and the slaughter of innocent civilians at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And, now, more than 800,000 Iraqi civilians and what looks like near total destruction of Iraq.

We have to turn all of our future holdisays into anti-war protests -- and most especially Father's Day should join Mother's Day as an anti-war day.

Since Vietnam and that "bright shining lie" . . .
how many new lies from Grenada to Panama,
Gulf War I . . . ???

9/11 . . . ????

Obviously, one of the greatest benefits of the internet is that it brings Americans together to hear one another --
to understand how similarly we all feel about what is happening in our nation.

Will we be able to hang onto it?

Speak to one another, person to person --

Dr. Zinn,

Thank you for all the brilliant works you have written and published over the years. I wish members of the MSM would realize the value of your works and promote them. Sadly, given the fact that they are in the pockets of the Dimocrats and Repugnicans, that is unlikely, which really is a shame.

For this July 4th, just stay at home and listen to Bob Dylan's "With God on our Side"! Thanks for the great article Prof. Zinn! Long Live! Long Live!

Pride begets arrogance.
Nationalism begets chauvinism.

Today, populist movements are rebounding. People surround themselves with former military officers who strike out with strong populist tone. People vote them into power. It's a dangerous path. Populism can go militant, it has happened in the past when a country's people feel vulnerable. I think of the beginnings of fascism in Italy as an example. Zinn's message is key today. Don't Raise the flag. Watch out for nationalism.

"Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all other countries because you were born in it."
George Bernard Shaw
Irish dramatist & socialist (1856 - 1950)

Manifest Insanity, still.

I think instead of merely putting away flags, we need to work to make this nation truly worthy of waving one.

America is more than her misdeeds and her afflictions. Her affliction is the people who infect her goverment. They are literally a virus that eats away at everything this nation promises.

I'm not going to be celebrating on the 4th. It's a day off to sleep in and cut my grass anymore.

But I won't be burning a flag either, nor will I abandon America for Canada or France. They have enough of us there. :) Just like people should stay in Mexico to scare their goverment into doing right by her people, I along with every other American should stay here and do the same.

We all have a stake in this. Simply bashing America and Americans as many people here do does not a damn thing.

People seem to forget that constructive dissent is more American than rock 'n' roll. And that alone is enough reason to keep the flag flying.

July 4th is when Americans celebrate their Dependence on Washington.

We would all wear black, and mourn the death of our united States of America, a once great Republic, and get THAT on INTERNATIONAL television.

Nationalism is perhaps one of the most powerful currents unifying people. Hugo Chavez is a nationalist. So is Castro. So were the Vietnmihn, and a portion of the Iraqi insurgency. Nationalism is popular and POWERFUL everywhere. Its POPULAR. Why cede it to conservatives?

This time seems worse to me than WW2 and some of the past atrocities. Only a few people were aware in time to prevent some of the previous atrocities. Some of the well known principles of peace had not been articulated to the people.

Now we know the ideals and the short and long term blowback and further deaths when war and economic attacks are made on innocent people. Anyone can often see the death and destruction coming well before it happens.

The current empire attacks by the U.S. are against even the weak world resolutions and treaties we have signed.

Yet we kill, maim, destroy, and steal with less concern than the outcome of Paris Hilton's jail term.

Howard Zinn is too easy on us.

i learned about nationalism in grade school as many students in this country and around the world have. i recall that even as a child, i was able to recognize nationalism as a dangerous tool in the wrong hands, and have long held the hope that the fervent nationalism of the 20th century--that has claimed so many of our human family--would somehow end with that century. here we are in 2007, and the rally-round-the-flag is worse than ever.

september 11, 2001 was a tragedy, we all can agree. perhaps the real tragedy lies in the government & mainstream media's use of that dreadful day in so many speeches and newscasts to whip up the most reviling, disgusting patriotism in modern history.

this weekend, i attended a jazz festival in syracuse new york. i marveled at the community outpouring and volunteer support of this long-stranding tradition. the people of syracuse and onondoga county have put on this free festival for 25 years now. last night, they ended the festivities with a fireworks display, where 'god bless america' was played over the PA, and needless to say, everyone in attendance began singing along, watching the pretty lights.

during this fireworks display, and during many others i have attended, i have turned my back. i make a point not to watch the "pretty colors". i close my eyes, and the smell and sound of fireworks immediately take on a horrifying new meaning. as my thoughts revolved and evolved last night, i couldn't help thinking about the birth of this nation, watered by the blood of so many who lived here peacefully. a fitting thought