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Another World Is Possible; Another USA is Necessary
ATLANTA -- The political discussion in the United States is, for the most part, disappointing -- not merely because it is too ideologically and intellectually narrow but also because it is too backward in focus.
Instead of imagining what might be, contemporary politicians spend most of their time talking, at best, about treating existing wounds to the body politic and, at worst, about "threats" that no longer exist. In the former category, place all the Democratic and Republican politicians who promise a "new direction" with regard to the Iraq quagmire but never get around to rejecting the neo-conservative -- or more precisely, neo-colonial -- policies that got us into the mess in the first place. In the latter category, place all the partisans who suggest that the problem with our health-care system is too much government involvement -- which is a little like claiming that the problem with a headache is too much aspirin.
At a certain point, you just want to say: "Get over it! At a point when only one in five Americans think the country is headed in the right direction, isn't it time we changed course?"
That's the message of the thousands of Americans who have gathered in Atlanta in recent days for the U.S. Social Forum.
Modeled on the World Social Forums initiated by the South American left, which have brought together activists from every corner of the planet to strategize about organizing across border to promote fundamental change -- ending poverty, addressing environmental threats, rejecting war and genocide as responses to conflict -- the U.S. Social Forum says radical reform is both a realistic goal and a reasonable one.
It adopts the World Social Forum mantra: "Another World Is Possible."
And it adds an essential second line: "Another U.S.A. Is Necessary."
As the diverse range of peace and social justice groups that have organized the U.S. Social Forum recognize, only when the U.S. becomes a more responsible player will the planet become a more functional and humane place. This is not a matter of blaming the U.S. for everything that ails the world; there is plenty of blame to go around. Rather, the point is a positive one: By making the United States live up its founding promises of democracy, respect for the rule of law and avoidance of entangling alliances, this country can both lead by example and by the practice of respecting the right of others for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
There is a good deal of optimism on display in Atlanta this weekend. But it is an optimism rooted in bitter experience. Activists like the Liberty Tree Foundation's Ben Manski have long track records of battling against empire, injustice and environmental degradation. They know how hard it is to change the course of American politics and governing.
Yet, they believe that the American people, if freed to shape the country of their desires rather than their fears, would make the U.S. a better player on the planet. In other words, they argue that America is not the sum of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Rather, it should be the expression of the best insti of three hundred million basically decent people who, given an opportunity, would opt for peace, fairness, equality and sustainability.
Manski, the executive director of Madison's Liberty Tree Foundation for the Democratic Revolution, has played a critical role in developing the U.S. Social Forum's "Democracy Track," a series of events designed to get people thinking about how to renew and extend citizen participation in decision making at the local, state and federal levels. As a participant in several of the plenaries, I've been genuinely impressed with the seriousness of everyone involved to, as Manski puts it, "build a democracy movement for the U.S.A."
There is no question of the need for such a movement. Our electoral processes are a shambles, as evidenced by the dubious results of the last two presidential elections. Our campaign finance system is a crime. Our media aids and abets all that afflicts the nation. And working families find it harder and harder to make their voices heard on the job, in the school or in the community. The crisis is clear. What's exciting about the U.S. Social Forum is that the solutions -- fundamental structural and policy changes in foreign and domestic policies, rather than tinkers around the edges -- are coming into focus.
John Nichols' new book is The Genius of Impeachment: The Founders' Cure for Royalism. Rolling Stone's Tim Dickinson hails it as a "nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic [that] combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the 'heroic medicine' that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"
Copyright © 2007 The Nation



38 Comments so far
Show AllThis is EXACTLY WHY this population needs to get over a fear of major change and ACT instead of write/talk. I stayed out of the political farce for about 90% of my adult life because it was ALWAYS "business as usual", only in different degrees.
Then four years ago an event happened that got me back into the craziness that is our political system: I learned of
Dennis Kucinich. Here was the man (I learned after researching and listening) that represented all I'd ever hoped for in a politician. He was the portrait of what I'd heard most people looking for in a politician also: A heart; GENUINE love of country and its working class people; plans to make changes that would level the playing field for all and not just corporations and the wealthy; and, last but not least--intelligence, integrity, and HONESTY. (Look at his voting record.)
We don't HAVE to be in constant piss 'n moan mode anymore.
Here is the answer right in front of us. Forget "unelectable", "too short" (PLEASE!), and mainstream media's near black out. (As a matter-of-fact FORGET MAINSTREAM MEDIA'S INPUT DURING THE PROCESS...PERIOD! You KNOW who owns them.
Many of us on this site have said TOO MANY TIMES: "Dennis Kucinich MOST REPRESENTS MY VALUES AND IDEALS but....
Forget the "buts" and have faith. Let's get our country back and flowing with the river instead of against it. PLEASE visit http://www.kucinich.us and READ/LEARN then share with all the REAL people you know looking far MAJOR CHANGE and not politics and policy as usual.
I appreciate this article.
I know that I am trying to act upon the direction I would like to see things go. This is a personal thing, and obviously there are many ways.
Just today I filled in the paperwork to join the NC Green Party and to change my voter registration affiliation. Just one person making a personal choice, but for me, it is important.
Peace,
Ken Hausle
* I support HRes333 - Impeach the VP
***** time is of the essence *****
Ken Hausle and all other "party people,
This IS NOT about party and which team you want to be on. It's about the RIGHT PERSON!!! I am a proud Independent (Which, in my wiildest political fantasies, ALL voters are Independents-then it would be about issues instead of affiliations.)and would consider voting for Ron Paul if D.K.
doesn't get the nomination, and he's a #!*%^! Republican!
And, yes, even Ralph-got-a-bad-rap Nader.
I think the time is coming for a third or even fourth party to emerge in parity (Socialist Party would be great for us regular folks!) but for now we need the most Progressive candidate since Paul Wellstone and THAT, my friends, is Dennis Kucinich.
Brown, I suspect we agree much more than we disagree.
Anyhow, I'm not a "party person", so other than that, I agree with everything you say.
Kucinich is the individual who has proposed resolution at least in the form of House Resolution 333 - I wholeheartedly support this effort of Kucinich's.
Peace,
Ken Hausle
***** time is of the essence *****
Bravo to the article. We have to start doing for ourselves and acting proactively instead of waiting for some hero to come along and make everything okay. It's not gonna be okay unless we make it so.
a single individual, a la kucinich, nader, ron paul, whoever, is not gonna fix this sh!t for us. that's the reverse of saying dick cheney (or w. bush) is the cause of our problems. convenient, gratifying, but totally false. if electoral procedure were the issue, then what more opportune time to bring that up than the 2000 or 2004 elections? who in the dems is even addressing that issue?
we are not gonna elect ourselves out of this mess.
www.wsws.org
So, Ballsy, what's your answer?
"[The American people] ...three hundred million basically decent people who, given an opportunity, would opt for peace, fairness, equality and sustainability."
Permit me to doubt. Americans get bent out of shape only when they end up looking bad (Iraq, Vietnam), or gas approaches $4 a gallon. Americans are supercillious,naive,narcissistic,
self-involved, woefully ignorant about world issues-- geographic ignoramuses and total nincompoops regarding their own history, or anyone else's for that matter.
They are, in short, exactly the way the oligarchy and the ownership class wants them--stupid, phlegmatic, good-natured worshippers of the status quo, with nary a revolutionary thought in their heads. Just what the nation needs to deal with unprecedented economic, social, environmental and spiritual challenges. Leo Strauss and Dick Cheney are in the cat birds seat, we need to be saved from ourselves.
Unfortunately, we are the leaders we're are desperately searching for, and it will take some time (and 10's of millions of innocent lives) to get ourselves dug out of the very deep hole we find ourselves in.
Listen ascrowflies if you can, you say 10's of millions. That makes me cringe.....But, 10's of millions is way better than billions......
Lets not let billions happen......you know what I mean????
Those who can......ought to keep the worst from happening.
Then, we all can start to make things better. It can be so much better. At least it seems that way to me......
Peace,
Ken
***** time is of the essence *****
"...but never get around to rejecting the neo-conservative — or more precisely, neo-colonial — policies that got us into the mess in the first place." JN
Yes, it's funny how they never get around to this.
Keep sayin it, John. Maybe it'll register. Maybe we'll think of more creative ways to bitch and moan about this to old friends and new acquaintences. Man, what a blind spot.
Ballsy, if I recall correctly Thursday PM at the Presidential Forum John Edwards made reference to the scrubbing & shredding phenomena (ISMW).
Fifty years ago ignorance in my life was bliss, and later (recently) it was at least constant, even blues that were tolerable for me...believing all the Dem candidates were equally unadept at joining issues. But of course I had to see and hear Kucinich up there Thursday night at Howard University. Now the blues are worse because I can't think of any apropos VP candidate to run with him. None hold a candle. Edwards would be the default choice. Don't get me wrong, there would be improvements with Edwards; but Brown is right re we need ALL Kucinich's fixes...it's all gotta be synergized to even give us even the hope of a prayer. Speaking of hope, I hope Nichols is right re what those aware folks at the U.S. Social Forum can accomplish. I hope they'll develop a solidarity on points all of which, by some strange twist of fate, Kucinich endorses.
"...they believe that the American people, if freed to shape the country of their desires rather than their fears, would make the U.S. a better player on the planet."
When will we get over ourselves? Doesn't the history of the last fifty years, or of the fifty years leading up to the "Great War", or the two hundred years of conquest before that, tell us anything about our basic incompetence at playing the good guy in our own private Western? We're less convincing than even John Wayne, less intelligent, when it comes to places and peoples outside our borders, than even Ronald Reagan, and without doubt the most avaricious people on the earth.
If even the U.S. Social Forum, even John Nichols, haven't gotten over themselves, then I have to suppose there's just no hope. I secede.
I honestly believe that what is needed is for more U.S. citizens to identify themselves with Anti-Americanism and to start thinking seriously in terms of bringing it down and building a new national ideology, one based on healthier and more positive values.
Americanism is a kind of amalgm of conscious and unconscious traits inculcated, to varying degrees, into your citizenry by your culture, regardless of whether you are left or right.
It's an unexamined and instinctive belief in your national superiority, exceptionalism taken for granted, militarism, patriotism, national mythology, piety, soundbitist political culture, a loose and not very sturdy belief in democracy, a belief that anything is possible (and/or permissible) in the pursuit of 'American interests', the naive belief that there IS such a thing as one set of universally applicable 'American interests', the belief that prosperity is the result of virtue and that the poor have themselves to blame, the bizarre conferring of individual human rights to corporations such as 'freedom of speech' (political corruption a.k.a. lobbying) and 'conjugal rights' (almost all of your proudest corporations don't pay any taxes!), this weird ancestor worship thing you've got with your 'framers' intentions' and the precious and sacred Constitution (written blithely in the midst of slavery and aboriginal genocide), plus a whole slew of lifestyle things like your ludicrous levels of protein consumption, energy consumption, pollution, vicarious celebratism, drugs-in-sport and your all round audacity, insularity and impunity.
This is Americanism. It's a creed. It's tangible. It's dangerous and ultimately unsustainable. I am against it and proud of the fact. And I suspect that many Americans may feel the same.
Soeharto is absolutely right on all counts. As an "American," I am absolutely anti-American and have felt for some time more like a subject--or even "victim", if you will--of this country's policies, both domestic and international. I no longer feel like a citizen; the words of popular US singer/songwriter Greg Brown best sum up my feelings: "The land of my birth is no longer my home."
I feel a vague, but recurring, sense of anxiety and alienation, especially now
as the Fourth of July "celebration" nears; as I write, there are fireworks bursting and crackling in the background. (The local yokels are kickin' up their bootheels, I guess.) Even my normally mellow middle-aged dog seems ill-at-ease.
Perhaps Soeharto's only omission in his very incisive assessment of Americanism is his failure to mention the very stranglehold that fundamentalist religions have on this country. It is not to be underestimated; at present, it permeates and asphyxiates every branch of government, including the fourth (and most powerful) branch called the "Corporate Branch" which proudly and defiantly wraps itself in the blood-stained robes of fundamentalist religions.
That said, there seems to be a lull in the fireworks outside; it's early morning here in the Pacific NW. I wish that global US-incited fireworks would cease forever. I've opened the back door but there seems to be the smell of sulfur in here....
Enchantedwoodman wrote:
"Perhaps Soeharto's only omission [...] is his failure to mention the very stranglehold that fundamentalist religions have on this country."
Indeed, Enchantedwoodman. I can't help thinking of the Pharisees. Or the merchants in the temple, for that matter. If Jesus came again would he pose with George Bush on the Whitehouse lawn, I wonder?
I am anti-American. We (non-American 'caucasian nations' like UK and Australia) are incessently are fed the numbing slogan that "we share the same values" as the USA and that anti-Americanism is "going too far".
Well I DON'T share American values. Sorry. Collectively, Americans are a dangerous and militaristic people, self-obsessed, presumptious, glass-jawed, indifferent to the suffering of others, and you have deeply undemocratic instincts. Values-wise, I am wired differently .
Your 'American Dream' is a fraud (statistically speaking). Your 'shafted classes' are set adrift and remain utterly unorganized because of propagandizing twaddle about your being a "classless" society. I believe that ordinary people recognizing their "class" and how it relates to the distribution of wealth, is a pre-requisite for any significant change in America. So that's a case of different values too. Dodgy ones, methinks, for you Americans. No? In fact, I think working class people from different countries should recognize their shared interests and common threats and organize internationally. Oh dear. VERY DODGY.
Polls show that a vast majority of Americans are deeply sympathetic to Zionism. Not me. As Enchantedwoodman rightly points out, very many of you are religious too, but in a way that strikes people like me as being borderline mentally ill. I reject the values attendant thereto.
90% of your TV & entertainment is either grotesque or mind-numbing. And don't tell me it's imposed on you. Advertisers don't pay top dollar while Americans are 'in actual fact... wishing for something better on TV'.
I am a 'progressive' (I suppose) and I am willing to admit that I entertain the idea that violence might be necessary if state violence is to be resisted, if there is ever to be justice or the establishment of a sustainable economic and social model.
American 'progressives' don't even discuss violence. The American right talks about using state violence and lethal enforcement all the time - and hundreds of billions of dollars of public wealth is redistributed to the already-wealthy in order to serve up that violence, or threat of it - all dressed up in a kind of romanticized military pomp and "honour" that reflects quintessential American values.
Value after value, I assess it, and I find that I don't share it. I am tired of being told that "we all share the same values." We don't. Sorry.
Soeharto and Enchantedwoodman, I rightly agree with you. Somehow I feel more depressed this year as we approach the 4th. While I know there are many who feel as I do, it still seems that the majority of people where I live feel otherwise. They'll be setting off the fireworks over the lakes, major pollution but they don't care. I bet not one firecraker on up to rockets will be made in the US, nor will the US flags a waving.
Take heart. Occasionally I read a post on Common Dreams that demands to know what we are doing about the problem besides complaining. The first thing a totalitarian regime tries to do is stifle all dissent. Don't think Bush Inc. pays no attention to forums such as this. If everybody participated in talk like this the Bush crowd would be gone before impeachment proceedings could get started.
The day the Supreme Court illegally stopped the vote counting in Florida, and appointed George Bush as President of the United States, it set off a chain reaction of crime which continues and will continue to subvert Democracy for years into our future. According to the government controlled media, Americans have no recourse to remedy this chain reaction of crime, and will just have to suck it up.
Forget that! Any action that begins with a crime makes all subsequent illegal actions null and void, which means the American people are not bound by corrupt Supreme Court decisions whatsoever. We do have recourse, it's called Impeachment. Every Supreme Court Justice who voted to stop the vote counting in Florida, and appoint George Bush as President of the United States, should be Impeached.
The subsequent innumerable national and international crimes perpetrated by the Almighty Republican Establishment following the appointment of George W. Bush have corrupted our entire political system. Corruption breeds corruption, and spreads like wildfire. Stop the chain reaction of crime, and put out the wildfire before it consumes our country.
We have rights guaranteed by the Constitution and no gang of criminals can deprive us of our rights, no matter how many illegal laws they pass. Our Constitution is the Supreme Law, a triumph much like the New Testament. Corrupt leaders desecrate both.
.
Soeharto, if it's "instinctual" then how is it "inculcated"?
Answer: It is inculcated.
If you take it seriously, you can see that Hollywood has inculcated much of the world. At this point the originator is only the originator. What for example would happen if America became just an
O-Zone [see Paul Theroux] and SCO took the helm?
I don't deny it. What has happened is tragic. What has happened is oppressive. But I think the fix will involve more hard work, and fewer analytical gems thrown out there (rough ones). I like analysis and am glad you related what you related. But the hard work IMO has to do with that nasty thing called politicking.
More and more I am coming to think it has to do with a repertoire of just stuff to say when everyone on the bus is tired and tense outta their minds...and at such inopportune moments to make your reform politics palatable. Conscious and unconscious...yeah you're right about that. "Technique" [according to Ellul's analysis] has triumphed in a way. It's deep, deep, deep...the dedication. But isn't all-bread like dialectics outta some antique store? It's roses that'll make it work I think.
Re your take on Americanism...re what it is...it's something that has to be completed deconstructed. But deconstructed respectfully cause the people bearing the weight of the edifice as far as I can see still really deserve it. Why? Cause they've been dealing psychically with the full force of the zeitgeist. Have you been here? The full force of the recent version when you're standing in front of the speakers....well sometimes I think it bears a strong likeness to akasthisia.
"We live in a political world,
Love don't have any place.
We're living in times where men commit crimes
And crime don't have a face"
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/political.html
Picket line? Man, they can't even listen to what you're saying they're so whooped. Technique has done overloaded the circuits.
Plus you have the aspect of caged animal. If you don't put up heartfelt argument, but just make'em more paranoid...in these times when it's all over there's more to deal with then just bad feelings and polarization.
"Toxic, radioactive dust released from armour-piercing depleted uranium shells lingers for decades in the environment and contaminates land far from where it is used, according to British scientists.
The finding raises fears that communities living in or returning to war zones may be forced to live on contaminated ground, in danger of inhaling the substance or consuming it in food or water supplies."
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,2112249,00.html
I'll tell you about the bad feelings and polarization. People had to accept the logic of withdrawal from Vietnam, but YEARS AND YEARS afterwards they're still hating Jane Fonda. So, if you ask me to pull it all down...naw, I'll concentrate on a persausive argument this time that gets'em over to our side all the way. Don't know if others feel like me, but thirty years after the pull out...it's not what I didn't do politically that I regret but what I did so sloppily that offended friends and relatives. Maybe Lakoff or phenomenology or something can help me better get in their mocasins this go round.
While I agree with some of the sentiments about the arrogant, selfish, militaristic and presumptuous nature of Americans, I think it does no good to be "Anti-American." Sure, we have been hijacked by a corrupt, greedy, power-hungry elite, but tell me this, what country does not have this problem, to a greater or lesser extent?
If we are truly striving to save ourselves - and I mean the people who are living and loving and working hard every day just to keep ourselves and our communities functioning - we are going to have to build the biggest, strongest, most resiliant network in the history of peoplekind.
Those of you procliaiming your Anti-Americanism are shooting us in the foot before we have even left the gates, and it's going to be a long hard race. By the time things get to the point of armed rebellion, our present military industrial complex will be completely out of control, if it isn't already. They are fast developing things like long range pain ray weapons, and quiet remotely piloted spies and assasins. Our light arms will be mere pinpricks against their armor, and they will be able to completely disable us before they are even close to our range.
If we are to subdue this monster, we are going to have to gain control of it by its roots by moving America back to its original ideal of "a more perfect union." By absorbing all Americans who will join into a new set of agreements of simple things that we all have in common.
I like to think that its best, there is a wild creativity to the American spirit, which needs to be reawakened and set to the task of saving ourselves from ruin, but that may just be my own Americanocentrism kicking in!
Yep, I can dig it.
Soeharto, if it's "instinctual" then how is it "inculcated"?
Answer: It is inculcated.
If you take it seriously, you can see that Hollywood has inculcated much of the world. At this point the originator is only the originator. What for example would happen if America became just an
O-Zone [see Paul Theroux] and SCO took the helm?
I don't deny it. What has happened is tragic. What has happened is oppressive. But I think the fix will involve more hard work, and fewer analytical gems thrown out there (rough ones). I like analysis and am glad you related what you related. But the hard work IMO has to do with that nasty thing called politicking.
More and more I am coming to think it has to do with a repertoire of just stuff to say when everyone on the bus is tired and tense outta their minds...and at such inopportune moments to make your reform politics palatable. Conscious and unconscious...yeah you're right about that. Yeah, "technique" [according to Ellul's analysis] has triumphed in a way. It's deep, deep, deep...the dedication. But isn't all-bread like dialectics outta some antique store? A few roses maybe?
"We live in a political world,
Love don't have any place.
We're living in times where men commit crimes
And crime don't have a face"
http://www.bobdylan.com/songs/political.html
cont
continued from above
Talk about alienation. Have you been here? The full force of the recent version when you're standing in front of the speakers....it bears in my mind a resemblance to akasthisia.
Picket line? Man, they can't even listen to what you're saying they're so whooped. Technique has done overloaded the circuits.
Plus you have the aspect of caged animal. If you don't put up heartfelt argument, but just make'em more paranoid...in these times when it's all over there's more to deal with then just bad feelings and polarization.
"Toxic, radioactive dust released from armour-piercing depleted uranium shells lingers for decades in the environment and contaminates land far from where it is used, according to British scientists.
The finding raises fears that communities living in or returning to war zones may be forced to live on contaminated ground, in danger of inhaling the substance or consuming it in food or water supplies."
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,2112249,00.html
I'll tell you about the bad feelings and polarization. People had to accept the logic of withdrawal from Vietnam, but YEARS AND YEARS afterwards they're still hating Jane Fonda. So, if you ask me to pull it all down...naw, I'll concentrate on a persausive argument this time that gets'em over to our side all the way. What you're calling Americanism needs complete deconstruction. But deconstruction with respect; as far as I can see the people psychically bearing the weight of this thing right here where its at...deserve as much. I know, I know: the real crap is projected beyond the borders on others. Nevertheless, there was something worthwhile here these older Americans remember (like during the time in which the civil rights movement prevailed) that they've had to watch dry up. At any rate, don't know if others feel like me, but thirty years after the
pull-out...it's not what I didn't do politically that I regret but what I did so sloppily that offended friends and relatives. Maybe Lakoff or phenomenology or something can help me better get in their mocasins this time.
There is all together to much anti-americanism expressed on this forum. Does anyone actually believe that americans are worse than other people? How can you make such a broad statement on 300 million people? Yes there are lazy, self-indulgent, racist, ect people here. Guess what? They exist in EVERY OTHER COUNTRY. There are also wonderful Americans, ones that are self-reliant, generous, compassionate, hard working, Pull for the underdog ect. I think that, at least in my part of the country, (Colorado) that MOST americans have some very good attributes. The americans that are being described here do not correspond to the ones that I meet and know day in and day out.
The worst part of "Americanism" is how they expect everyone whom we've bombed, nuked, impoverished, raped, etc. to "love America," otherwise there is something wrong with them, they are "with the terrorists" and "hate our freedoms," etc. "Bullshit!," I want to scream. That's just slavishness, demanded by despots!
But what I object to more about John Nichols, these "world social forums," and their cant about a "new America," the pro-Kucinich/pro-Nader comments here, is that, in the name of one or other form of nationalism, they forget the only prospect that can save us from these perils: a socialist working class!
Nichols, Kucinich, and to just a lesser degree, Nader, are merely three individuals intent upon pressuring the Democrats to move to the Left. Fat chance.
ah, the poor kucinich supporters. I have resented him for the last 3 years for having taken primary votes away from Howard Dean. I guess some folks consider the political process as a sort of game, when the general election comes up, they just bow their heads and accept the wishes of the establishment.
Will and Marius above embrace diametrically opposed econ takes and yet both relish a good Kucinich bashing. Word to the wise somewhere there between the lines I expect.
"Nichols, Kucinich, and to just a lesser degree, Nader, are merely three individuals intent upon pressuring the Democrats to move to the Left. Fat chance."
Oh yeah, and having read about guys like Pol Pot and Chauchescu all their lives...it's the ardent and informed electorate (vs the politicians) that will lead the exodous over yonder to the Socialist camp.
Dean's handlers must have told him to loosen up. In terms of the way the game is played he failed when he listened. Always looked like he was astonished at how simple the right solution was. On camera he should have been pushing (like Kucinich) the envelope with facts, information, and relationships between facts that it was his job to keep track of...but which the public easily looses track of.
Interesting, impassioned debate here. It fulfills the ideal of this forum.
Soeharto: Thank you for holding up the scathing mirror. So few can see themselves from the outside in.
Rabblerowser: Right on!
Bushwa Blues: Good points about what it feels like to be inside the caged ring with dangerous zoo guards heavily armed.
As an American who is approaching later middle-age, I can honestly say that I am feeling more and more frightened about the future of my country. I am afraid that very soon America will implode - either because of its massive and uncontrollable deficit financing or because it simply runs out of the cheap energy that is currently keeping it afloat. I am convinced that America has sold its soul to the concept of pure and unbridled capitalism as the only real source of democracy and individual well-being. We have been told over and over of the evils of socialism and the power of capitalism but, in truth, I cannot help but wonder if both are not simply flip sides of the same coin and that either one in the total absence of the other is dangerous for the long-term survival of the people being governed or the sustainability of the nation in general.
More and more I scan the horizon for the next presidential "savior" to pull us away from the precipice just in time. But I fear that even if such an individual somehow managed against all odds to make it to that position he/she would find it impossible to convince the majority of the population to make the serious and fundamental changes necessary to avert disaster. The longer that we let America continue in its current direction (economically, militarily, and politically) the more difficult it will be to change course in time. Unfortunately, I cannot help but feel that democracy (while good and decent in principle) is exactly the wrong form of government to do ANYTHING quickly. More than likely we will simply argue and disagree our way right over the cliff - and blame the other guy all the way down to the ground.
So, I am seriously contemplating moving to another country before all of this happens and the rest of the free world closes its borders to avoid the inevitable stampede out of the USA.
Blame plutocracy.
Plutocracy seems to give real options the appearance of things on which the people...owing to one pluralistic factor or another...are evenly divided. Over and over. No retooling of money flows, just like no re-tooling was allowed in Detroit.
In a democracy the issues are what they are, therefore the merits of each POV can be sifted out.
Siouxrose, there's no doubt that somehow conservatives have felt belittled by the intelligentsia (what they view as the liberal intelligentsia). It's like in the days of Vietnam. What you say can swing the whole content of your neigbor's or uncle's letter to his/her Rep, or reinforce it a thousandfold. Lasch described how they too have gotten scorned (not just us by them), and I now know Lasch was right. In my early days I couldn't have conceived I'm sure how anything Lasch said had a bearing on anything. But now I can.
Say too much and folks throw up their hands, and continue mailing contributions to Republicans. Argue in the wrong tone in the wrong place, and they do the same thing. Leave out one word or one comma and your implication may shift...and someone's boiling point re "down on America" might be reached.
I have to assume that they've got the psychic disadvantage, and that at some level they wish they knew more about their world.
Conservatives from both parties brought about this mess. They are deserting the sinking Buship to better their chances in 2008.
Our conservative, bestial, authoritarian nature, driven by greed, ignorance, superstition and fear is anti-science, anti-social and inhumane at best, and lying, cheating, stealing, raping and murdering at worst.
Confusing authoritarianism with strength, not realizing that it comes from reactionary fear, greed, lust, and from our baser instincts makes us choose conservatives as leaders. Conservatives are not conservative in the best sense of the word. They are reactionary extremists and must be viewed as such if liberals are to remove the stigma conservatives have placed on us.
Bushwa Blues: Although largely discredited, I think Wilhelm Reich was onto something BIG. When he made it one of his lifework goals to penetrate why the nazis went along with Hitler, he came to the conclusion that the NATURAL state of the human being had been forced so deep "underground" with artificial constraints (what I term "the minuets of protocol") placed atop, that when the lid burst from all that repression, enormous aggression could be projected.
Where I live in the Bible belt I see the LIFE beaten out of people. They are afraid to be cast as outsiders, to pursue a course of study that leads them outside the "ranks" would mean social ostracism. Let me provide two telling examples. In Joseph Chilton Pierce's book, "Magical Child" he relates empirical data about a tribe in Africa where infant's progress occurs much faster than is presumed possible by western doctors and medical types. BECAUSE continuing on this progressive track would largely mean the child would outgrow his clan, it's CUSTOM for the mother to completely abandon her child at age 2. What this acts to facilitate is an essential FREEZING of the child's emotional state (and the mind can't travel too far without it!) so that the members of the tribe, thus crippled, can never leave. I believe that EVERY religion and culture does this dance to a lesser extent.
My second point is related to a little male ritual I observed in college that still hits me when I think about it, for it shows the degree to which MEN enter into equivalent baboon hierarchies to "prove" that they are men. I had a crush on a very handsome guy and he was ready to introduce me to his buddies from High School. So it was me and 4 guys hanging out... The one I liked was the king, or ringleader, and next in the hierarchy was a bright, small guy who was very witty and deferred to "leader." The next one was the YES-man who pretty much went along with what "leader" said, and the last on the totem poll was humiliated repeatedly in front of me. His roll was to laugh it off. He was treated like a virtual mascot, to the extent his front teeth were broken as an antic they egged him into doing was BITING open beer cans.
Watching this spectacle, I could not stop myself from playing MIRROR and stating what I saw. Needless to say Mr. handsome never spoke to me again. I can only imagine the military rituals. I was involved with an ex-marine a few years back and he was telling me about boot camp. He said they were all given nick names and the sergeant mocked their genitals, too. One guy was so ashamed he tried to kill himself.
I do not think people are by nature cruel, I believe social rituals that seem to demand that each give up his humanity to BELONG to the tribe contribute substantially to the horrors that have come to characterize a great many cultures today. WE all have a primitive aspect, but it's intended to be balanced by the more Holy attributes like intelligence, compassion, and empathy. I will refrain from going into Jungian archetypes and/or astrological references, although for me, these templates prove inordinately useful in understanding the conflicting trends of both individuals and collectives, i.e. nations.
Just think, if I had known so many posters would show up here basically in support of what Nichols was saying...I may not have felt obliged to relate so many reasons why IMO he, Nader, Kucinich et al...were not slackards...based on the first few posts.
Thanks for all those thoughts, Siouxrose. My vacation is over and I am quite thankful for it. Unfortunately, I should not take the time to lay out ALL my cogitations re what you have said until next weekend.
In general I think rights of initiation have evolved. In general I think we are now able and we now should take a look at the beliefs and rites of all the families in the village and do a little sifting, like Andrew Harvey does for example. Many old ones must make way for a little tolerance of other ones; otherwise the predominant sacrifice archetype will subsume/integrate [disintegrate] diverse worldviews quite readily in mutual wars amongst/between themselves. Just like the maelstroms that no doubt flow into black holes.
Yeah, from my POV it's either the sacrifice archetype or the heap archetype, I don't know how Jung would break it down were he here. Check out "Temples of Debt" by Johnston and scroll down to "Heap of Debt."
At any rate, you might agree with me that when one enters the cage of a humiliated wild animal...as with many other things in life...it's the razor's edge and one better not forget it (walking the mountain top's edge...the saying that Maughm quoted).
Gibran said the West seems to make you a hero or attempt to crush you. But I am in no hurry to get to the top of the correct-analysis mountain. A lot of eastern philosophy/religion has has influenced my current attitude, and I'm pretty convinced it'll serve me well to the end. As one voice I simply say what I think, believing that many others will come here with more profound thoughts than mine. It's no new revelation for me to accept being the little cog. Or to lay out A LOT of thoughts the glib-in-their-own-mind crowd will gleefully use for target practice. My thoughts are what they are. There have been a lot of heavy articles here from professional journalists [thank God almighty], and it's only natural that readers of same should be able to see what other readers make of what they write. Like you say I'd assume..."the ideal of this forum."
Also...most important...my apologies for including the same segment in two posts. It may have happened when I clicked "submit" and nothing happened right away, so I repeated etc.
The world can no longer exist as seperate countries. It is a new day. It's time for a new deal.
We have to figure out how to unite as One World, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. For Real.
Meanwhile, if you read Nichol's columns on electorial politics, he awards the crown to Clinton at every turn.
Way to go, Mr Nichols. Anything else you may have to offer in terms of alternatives is immediately tainted.
ezeflyer: Well said. The term, conservative or ( even worse ) neo-con, are inappropriate to describe these types of thugs. Reactionary is a better selection as the politicians in both parties react to any change in the status quo.
siouxrose: Interesting post on your college days. In groups of men and women, there is the leader/s, the followers of the leader/s, the person/s to laugh at and ridicule, and at times a contrarian in the crowd. In children, it is quite noticable, but carried on into adulthood.
Bushwa Blues & Peaceman: Although it's ostensible that the hierarchical patterns that have dominated most civilizations for much of recorded history reflect these patterns of dominance, as I often use for illustrative purposes, the CIRCLE provides a contextual model that is egalitarian, not built on power structures. Mankind is evolving. It's not just a biological dance, there is a spiritual counterpart. The early MAN (and mankind by extension) required a strong MARS for survival. Unfortunately, this necessary trait became dominant. I have studied this from a number of perspectives, inclusive of psychological and philosophical models. As many here realize, I have come to conclude that the ancient mystics hold the most comprehensive keys. So much of our discourse is based on polarized potentials, Left or right, male or female, good or evil, etc. Even education has essentially trained minds to march to the tune of "the separation of disciplines," which for many causes a veritable disconnect wherein the varied branches from the tree of life cannot be conceptualized as a singular Gestalt.
I am only relating these observations to suggest that we may be savvy and educated, but even so, our models are flawed and the best analysis drawn from these reflects the limitations inborn to them. This is why I sometimes risk placing unconventional ideas into this forum. I'll close with this analogy. Here on commondreams perhaps a year ago was a fascinating article based on what's generally taken for FACT as per baboon behavior. The story line involved a resort in Africa (Kenya?) which attracted tourists. The resort had an outside garbage disposal area that the baboons would frequent, and due to their strict dominant male based hierarchical society, guess who ate first? Well, as it turned out, the food was tainted which acted to kill off all the dominant male baboons. Instead of the more YIN males walking in the shoes of their now deceased peers, they instead (and I see so much promise in this event) evolved a very different society wherein they worked cooperatively with the females.
Margaret Mead made groundbreaking studies that challenged presumed biological determinism showing how roles were not always what we'd take them to be (gender-wise) as her observations of indigenous tribes demonstrated. And as Carlos Casteneda's teacher also advised, "Who gives you the authority to say ... " thus and so. We are a primitive species learning to ascend to meet the provisions of the ideals implanted within us. One drop from a consistent waterfall over time can cut through solid rock. Human evolution similarly is a SLOW process.
Speaking in very general terms here:
I think a renewed balance between the genders is essential and could lead to many wonderful developments that are beneficial in unexpected ways. There needs to be solution-oriented recognition of how the balance is distorted and then cooperative effort to make the necessary adjustments.
Plus, I choose to believe that this could happen much more quickly than most would imagine.....I suppose none of us know for sure, but all the evidence says to me that time is of the essence....
Peace,
Ken Hausle
"As many here realize, I have come to conclude that the ancient mystics hold the most comprehensive keys. So much of our discourse is based on polarized potentials, Left or right, male or female, good or evil, etc."
I'm fairly new here...didn't have the full realization but was gettin the feeling. That first sentence up there...on the basis of it I hope you'll write more here.
Now that my vacation's over I have to cut right to the chase. Your second sentence might cause me to say a number of things, but I'll try to make it short. Combine it with the "yin" you mentioned later on...and it makes me think you might think I've grabbed onto a grain of truth or two myself. For me Lao Tsu was heavy, heavy, heavy. I can kind of buy his take but it would have to be updated by what a guy like Aurobindo anticipated (though Aurobindo's biggest stretch in terms of hope demonstrated IMO, even for him, a little miscalculation in terms of the purposes of incarnations...small "i"). It would even have to be updated by a little Tibetan Buddhism but I don't have time tonight to do anything but mention that.
"I am only relating these observations to suggest that we may be savvy and educated, but even so, our models are flawed and the best analysis drawn from these reflects the limitations inborn to them."
Well, Siouxrose, I could go on and on attempting to convince myself and others that Bushwa Blues is conversant in things Jungian (developing my statements of July 1 and things you mentioned afterwards). I don't feel inclined to do so however. I wanna let the phenomenological method I weakly possess aid me in venturing off on a little tangent. What you call the "models" seem to be getting more attention than something fundamental. Granted, something new will have to broker peace among the somethings fundamental.
The deal with meritocracy as once discussed by Lasch seems to imply at this juncture a lot of analyses with accompanying books. They keep sub-dividing or permutating...to cover specialized baliwicks, and each permutation seems to suck up the bucks...of somebody. Old disciplines sort of go by the wayside as thousands of professors publish what they view as their indispensible refinement on say Milton Friedman or structural adjustment. Now, if the old discipline of economics were functioning as it was envisioned...it would have dispensed both to the circular file long ago. And yet readers flounder around lost in the permutations. The world seems lost in the pleasures of the mind. We're all persuaded it's normal to attempt to get informed on a number of special interests/hobbies plus a number of careers. It's this "renaissance man" stuff...it never faded. But wait. If you take the world of Stafford, or Frost, or Berry...does any imperative exist in their poems that justifies this mad rush to learn crap?
"And if some of these [biblical names/terms for "prinicipalities"] seem quaint, transposed into contemporary language they lose quaintness and the principalitities become recogizable and all too familiar [bk published 1973]: they incude all institutions, all ideologies, all images, all movements, all causes, all corporations, all bureaucracies, all traditions, all methods and routines, all conglomerates, all races, all nations, all idols. Thus, the Pentagon or the Ford Motor Company or Harvard University or the Hudson Institute or Consolidated Edison or the Diners Club or the Olympics or the Methodist Church or the Teamsters Union are all principalities. So are capitalism, Maoism, humanism, Mormonism, astrology, the Puritan work ethic, science and scientism, white supremacy, patriotism plus many, many more--sports, sex, any profession or discipline, technology, money, the family--beyond any prospect of full enumeration. The principalities and powers are legion."
from An Ethics for Christians & Other Aliens in a Strange Land by William Stringfellow
All the permuations. All the wonk cults. Don't many, many have their own individual whacked out initiation ceremonies? Did you hear creator of "Pan's Labyrinth" Del Toro on Fresh Air? His grandmother thought his flesh should be mortified. She put bottlecaps in his shoes upside down.
Stringfellow's following section in the book..."the principalities as creatures." There you have your persona category for archetypes which I take it is better an expression of what Jung saw behind them.