Twitter
StumbleUpon
Facebook
Delicious
Digg
Newsvine
Google
Yahoo
TechnoratiHow Immigrants Improve The Curve
'The impact of immigration - legal and illegal - on jobs, schools, healthcare, the environment, national security, are all very serious problems," insists Rep. Tom Tancredo (R-Colo.), a man famed for his extreme anti-immigration views. "But more serious than all of them put together is this threat to the culture. I believe we are in a clash of civilizations." Tancredo's right about that last bit. We are in a clash of civilizations - and someday, immigrant culture may even displace some aspects of American culture.
We'd better hope so.
Americans? We're fat, decadent and getting dumber all the time. Our life expectancy, which rose for most of the last two centuries, is stalling because so many of us are obese. While most of us know everything there is to know about Paris Hilton, we know next to nothing about history, geography, international politics or the workings of our own government.
In American culture, the Xbox reigns supreme among boys, we market thong underwear to prepubescent girls and a growing number of adults think a McMansion with fewer than one bathroom per resident is the height of privation.
Our forebears tamed the West, but today, most of us couldn't tame a paper bag. If we had to cross the country in covered wagons, we'd be dead well before we reached the Mississippi.
Now contrast "our" culture with that of recent immigrants. On all too many measures, immigrants look a whole lot better.
Immigrants exhibit no shortage of pluck. It takes guts to leave your home and everything you know - even if a green card awaits. And when it comes to illegal immigrants, just getting here takes astounding courage. Illegal immigrants endure astonishing privation and risk - just for the chance to improve their lot by doing the backbreaking work so few native-born Americans have the inclination to do. While we demand McMansions, they share cramped apartments. We're up to our ears in consumer debt; they save almost every dollar to send to their less-well-off relatives.
The younger generation of illegal immigrants is particularly impressive. Each year, thousands of unaccompanied children cross into the U.S. without their parents, many literally walking here from villages in El Salvador and Guatemala. Could our sheltered and chaperoned children manage such a trip on their own?
Immigrants tend to be straight arrows too. A 2002 survey by the nonpartisan group Public Agenda found that an overwhelming majority of immigrants believe that they have a duty to "work hard and stay off welfare" and "respect people from different religious and ethnic backgrounds." A Harvard study found that immigrant students also have more positive attitudes toward education than U.S.-born young people.
And contrary to widespread perceptions, immigrants are less likely than non-immigrants to commit crimes. A study in Chicago looking specifically at Mexican immigrants found that "first-generation immigrants (those born outside the United States) ... were 45% less likely to commit violence than were third-generation Americans." Harvard sociology professor Robert Sampson suggests that increased immigration may have been a factor in reduced crime rates in the 1990s.
Another study done in New York City found that immigrants looked pretty good across the board. Compared to their native-born peers, for instance, "foreign-born [adolescents] had less asthma, less obesity, fewer school days missed and less involvement in substance use, sex, delinquency and violence." On average, immigrants even live three years longer than the rest of us.
No wonder Tancredo and his supporters are terrified of immigrants!
Immigrants put us to shame. They're healthier, stronger, thriftier and braver. If we can't get them to assimilate, they may well displace us. Thursday's death-by-filibuster of the immigration reform bill - which ended the prospect of a path to citizenship for 12 million undocumented workers - might slow the cultural displacement, but it won't stop it.
Fortunately for us native-born types, most immigrants are willing to overlook our flaws and assimilate. According to the Public Agenda survey, 80% of immigrants consider the U.S. "a unique country that stands for something special in the world," and 87% say it's "extremely important" to "speak and understand English."
But we should pause before we insist that immigrants assimilate. The same studies that show immigrants are healthier and less violent also suggest that the inoculating effects of immigrant status wear off over the years. By the time you get to the grandchildren of immigrants, you can no longer detect much difference.
In other words: Immigrants beware! Assimilation into American culture may be hazardous to your health and your values.
As for the rest of us - instead of insisting that immigrants assimilate to our culture, maybe we should consider assimilating to theirs. It might be the only way to bring back the values of our ancestors - who were, as everyone knows, immigrants themselves.
rbrooks@latimescolumnists.com
© 2007 The Los Angeles Times
77 Comments so far
Show AllWHO, exactly, is slamming illegal aliens in this forum? Slamming their illegal employers maybe...
"It gets funnier by the minute. I havent heard this much B.S. in a while. If 'their' best and brightest stayed there you probably wouldnt be using a computer or getting a heart transplant or discovering the intricacies of the human genome ( or in your case getting a new brain)!"
So we don't have innovators here? And why should we commit brain drain on other nations? Isn't just imperialism in disguise?
And of course I'm just another dumb working American. Too dumb to be posting here of course. I'll go loaf on newsmax or some other right-wing site, and go vote against my best interests.
I get called stupid by a lot of people, btw, by people on the right and left. I'm a blue-collar mook who didn't finish college, the kind people on the right and left just love to hate. I suppose I deserve to get disenfranchised like the immigrants mostly will.
"Our best and brightest judging by our test grades and sports fantasies would probably be sitting on their asses on a couch and watching fat slobs throwing a balls at each other, which they currently do anyways."
Well there you go, more bashing of working Americans. How productive. And I suppose you're a member of mensa too, right?
It's funny really. The right demonizes immigrants and the left denigrates working Americans. It astonishes me.
I'm a working American. Who's side should I be on? Tell me. Because I'm getting the feeling that I'm not wanted by either of ya. I know the right wants to stick it to me, but there are times when it seems as if the left wants me to go fly a kite.
How much more obvious is it that the pro-illegal immigration folks are so contemptuous of America?
mariposavisions emotive writing finally revealing it's true ugliness with "AmerKKKa". gyptian the attack dog.
Folks, it's all about getting a piece of the pie and doing what it takes to get what certain people think they deserve -the easiest way possible.
IMO, the closer you look at something the more transparent it becomes. The pro-illegal immigration folks and their minions are no exception.
Tell me, gyptian, just exactly HOW did Bush stack this present congress?
"How many people of color are in Bush's cabinet and congress vs how many are in the French congress or any of the previous French president's cabinets"
This is laughable. So you stack the cabinet with 'more eager than you' conservatives like Rice, Powell, Gonzalez etc and you claim we have racial equality and somehow we are less racist as a nation. Ignorance apparently is bliss.
"The best and brightest in those countries should stay where they are, and our best and brightest should stay here. "
It gets funnier by the minute. I havent heard this much B.S. in a while. If 'their' best and brightest stayed there you probably wouldnt be using a computer or getting a heart transplant or discovering the intricacies of the human genome ( or in your case getting a new brain)! Our best and brightest judging by our test grades and sports fantasies would probably be sitting on their asses on a couch and watching fat slobs throwing a balls at each other, which they currently do anyways.
Funecons, I thought you promised to leave? For a comparison of "racism" in France and the USA, look at the national governments. How many people of color are in Bush's cabinet and congress vs how many are in the French congress or any of the previous French president's cabinets. Compare unemployment rates among blacks and Hispanics in the US with the unemployment rate of Muslims in France. Show us statistics if you like...For that matter, compare how restrictive US immigration laws are compared to frog ones.
And, most Americans know only too well how immigration laws work. They work to provide a source of cheap, non-union labor to rich Republican farmers and factory owners and rich Democratic limosuine liberals who want endless nannies and gardners. Most Americans know that any promises of actually enforcing immigration laws will not be met. That is why American citizens caused the Senate switchboard to collapse last week, and that is why the present bill died a much deserved death.
"Despite all the breastbeating about 'i dont blame the immigrants' the fact is you all do. The hate permeates. It feeds on itself. It manifests itself. Eventually you end up hating the immigrants. If all you haters pull your heads out of your butts you would realize that the only thing keeping this country functioning economically is waves of immigrants over the last 400 years who had to listen to this same drivel by 'americans' of their time."
I don't hate them or blame them for anything.
We have people in this country who are unemployed. Why shouldn't they get a job as opposed to someone who isn't a citizen?
"When we forcibly annihilated the native people and stamped our writ on this land we gave up any 'moral' right we had to this land. So shut the fuck up and deal with it."
So ok, when we allow unrestricted immigration to flow, we'll just "shut the fuck up and deal with it" when the problems start.
We're not even taking proper care of our own citizens, ones who were born here. Now we're going to take care of everyone else's huddled masses?
Should I just move to France then? Are they opening the door to me?
"While most Americans don't have a clue as to when or why our immigration laws were established to begin with, they don't even question the laws. Are they based on anything rational?"
Yes they are. We simply can't take care of everyone. We're not doing right by people who are already here.
"Who decided the quotas? Who decided who gets in and who doesn't and what is it based on?"
I don't think anyone else should be let in right now, at least until we get our house in order first.
"And when you peel away all the disinformation and rationalizations, all you are left with is the classis "fear of the other" - aka racism."
Of course. There's racism on all sides of it. I've said it before, we KNOW why a lot of conservatives don't want more immigrants coming here. But what a lot of people don't realize is that there's also racism in the idea of letting these "others" come in to do work that we feel that is beneath us for wages that we can't live on. It's been said before, including in this very forum that it's a form of slavery.
I also think that some of the people on the left who want clear borders are racist. Just like many of the conservatives likely wouldn't be putting up a fuss if the majority of these new immigrants were white Europeans, I also think that many of these progressives are backing immigration simply because the people coming over are mostly non-white. As of this will "turn the tables" on whites.
The racism to me is obvious from all corners. But opposing illegal immigration doesn't make one racist. It's like assuming someone is anti-semitic because they don't like what's going down in Israel.
"And don't blame our failing schools and health system on immigrants either — they only reveal how fragile and flawed our systems are to begin with."
I don't blame them for that at all.
"There is no rational excuse for not ensuring the well being of every person on earth. period."
Of course not. It's also irrational to let everyone from all over the planet enter a broken and dysfunctional country. The best and brightest in those countries should stay where they are, and our best and brightest should stay here. Talk about a brain drain.
It's America's fault. We create the poverty, and we hold all the wealth. No wonder people are rolling the dice and coming here. It must really suck where they come from, and that just shouldn't be.
mariposavisions-I see the point, that's why I think it's a dumb article. It's knee-jerk reactionism. If it's wrong to kick around the immigrants, then why should we kick around the people who were born here too? They're getting slickered also. In fact, we're being pitted against one another in all of this which is what the elites want.
No amnesty
If you like the immigrants more than your fellow americans but a ticket.
Illegal immigration costs us in health care expenses, education, yes welfare, law enforcement hours, lost jobs, lower wages, more drain on our public services, and there is a lot of crime in neighborhoods where illegal immigrants accumulate.
If you got out more you would know these things.
Americans are fighting for their lives in this job market why are you helping to make the fight harder?
The black and white thinking of the conservative mind can be so annoying. I lived in France for 3 years -- I think I am in a better position to discuss the situation there than those of you who believe everything you watch on American main stream media. Yes, there is racism in France, but it doesn't even compare to what we have. While most Americans don't have a clue as to when or why our immigration laws were established to begin with, they don't even question the laws. Are they based on anything rational? Who decided the quotas? Who decided who gets in and who doesn't and what is it based on? And when you peel away all the disinformation and rationalizations, all you are left with is the classis "fear of the other" - aka racism.
And don't blame our failing schools and health system on immigrants either -- they only reveal how fragile and flawed our systems are to begin with. There is no rational excuse for not ensuring the well being of every person on earth. period.
Wow…so many of you miss the point of this article. Finally an article that satirically positions this community in an empowered and different light – comparing them to the outward and prevailing obnoxious layers of American culture. I want to express my insight on the issues mentioned above (specifically Latino/Mexicano immigration) since I am a Chicana advocate who has worked for over 25 years with all Latino communities (un/documented, immigrant, and American) on both personal and socio-political levels. Remember my progressive critics, migration is a global phenomenon but above all it is personal (what I believe to be more interesting and humane than hashing over the terms legal and illegal). In the end, people keep living and dying with or without their papery documents in hand so let us advocate on either end after we listen to their stories with an open heart. Ask someone who knows, and this is what you'll hear.
When I was 8 years old, growing up in San Diego/borderlands, my then activist mother told me we were preparing for a peaceful rally. Two documented migrant workers had been beaten senseless and for no other reason than that of having limited English and being poor and brown. The situation took place at a country store located off of the old El Camino Real Spanish Mission highway (ironic). The then owner and several employers took the liberty of smashing two 'mexican skulls' with a baseball bat. When the two unconscious men awoke, they found themselves bound and tied inside the grocery cooler with brown paper bags covering their heads. Written on the bags were the words "Go Home Wetback!". The men received no medical attention other than being released by an employer who still had some sense of humaneness. The owner and other employers received no fine nor punishment.
I am a proud dual citizen of Mexico and the U.S. who is perfectly bilingual (where that is valued in most every other part of the world). I was born to a Mexican mother and my father's grandmother was from a mexican indigenous migrant tribe that crossed unspoken borders every growing season. My mother's mother and her siblings were born here to legal Mexican-Americans in the early 1900's. They crossed back and forth, then back (again!) over the course of the century. Luckily they were not kicked out during the forced illegal 1930's deportation of many Mexican-American citizens (some of their friends were). My ancestors also crossed these liminal, ubiquitous, politically led & bled borderlands over the course of AmeriKKKa's sorted history and fought patriotically and valiantly (papers or no papers) in every military cause that procured. Complex… que no??
How? Why? Because migrants, immigrant (legal/illegal rhetoric aside) are real human beings with real stories. Because they are my friends and loved ones. Because the U.S. and Mexico have always had a profiteering love/hate, push/pull, expatriate/legalize irrational relationship. Locos! Do we blame the generations born into the wrong times? Do we blame those living under NAFTA's rule? Just know that the years will keep passing by and the immigration rhetoric will keep changing. The lives of ordinary human beings will also change and be posited in discussions to what only you know and seek to understand. Paz…
Despite all the breastbeating about 'i dont blame the immigrants' the fact is you all do. The hate permeates. It feeds on itself. It manifests itself. Eventually you end up hating the immigrants. If all you haters pull your heads out of your butts you would realize that the only thing keeping this country functioning economically is waves of immigrants over the last 400 years who had to listen to this same drivel by 'americans' of their time.
When we forcibly annihilated the native people and stamped our writ on this land we gave up any 'moral' right we had to this land. So shut the fuck up and deal with it.
I understand that a lot of hate is being thrown at the immigrants, legal and illegal. It's wrong, misguided, and completely counterproductive. So is labeling people that oppose illegal immigration as well as Americans "racist" and "ignorant".
"High minded or lowbrowed arguments notwithstanding, doesn't anyone realize we are creating a slave underclass here? How can anyone who calls him or herself a liberal progressive, anyone who rightly admires the work ethic of immigrants legal and illegal willing to do backbreaking field and construction work for pennies and live in unheated shacks and decayed trailers with no running water and no electricity actually exploit them in this way?"
You nailed it my friend. No one seems to see that as racism.
No one also likes to take a look at the underbellies that permeate their countries also. Ah yes, France, such a wonderful tolerant city.
Anyone remember those riots not too long ago?
That's what happens when you import people from other countries to do work that you feel you're too good for. They become an angry underclass, and it's hard to blame them.
I just love how some people act as if America is this hellhole and that the countries they live in have nothing to be ashamed of.
I'll be the first to admit that there is a lot wrong with America. I wouldn't be visiting and posting on this site if I didn't feel that way. But please, don't throw stones when your houses are made of glass. It's smug, self-serving, and unfair.
I'm not going to demonize immigrants. They aren't the problem. It's capitalism run amok.
cont from my last post above
"I believe that it is linked, unconsciously or not, to fear of the 'alien other,' and that kind of fear is always greatly intensified during times of war and national insecurity."
Latter part of sentence true, but "focusing on illegals" is also the result of aspects provoice brought up.
Bob K, your 8:06PM post from yesterday is mostly right on IMO, however I missed how jp was advocating destruction of our system.
In general there is not much talk about theory in terms of direction after NAFTA is repealed. Michael Albert talks about it over at zmag.org but he gets so few posts I no longer take the time to go through the access maze over there. According to my calculations advocating "socialism" straight-up is pushing the envelope so hard that it will backfire and back track. Plus socialists don't always have critiques handy of what went wrong with the real thing...the real models. The regulative laws on "the market" at any rate already have yielded something different than what Adam Smith and Ayn Rand envisioned (yeah right, not enough staff to enforce regs).
The way the system works...it couldn't have been the Mexican gov's responsibility to create the society with the jobs. Because it would have been impossible. Check out "Confessions of an Economic Hitman." "Structural readjustment" doesn't boost economies save re isolated export platforms, therefore it wins us no ideological pts or admiration. Appropriate technology should get more of a hearing IMO, but computated appropriateness would entail a degree of "planning" [say re shipping of fuel] so exacting that I have no idea as to the types of institutions that would successfully promote or wangle compliance. Roosevelt's "Economic Bill of Rights" should get a hearing too IMO.
I like RB's stuff, but I am glad so much commentary some things that were left out. Time constraints force me to leave out a number of valuable observations.
"...and the Latino gangs like MS-13 and the Latin Kings have shootouts in broad daylight on our city street...like last Summer on exclusive South Beach in Miami."
provoice
"How can anyone who calls him or herself a liberal progressive, anyone who rightly admires the work ethic of immigrants legal and illegal willing to do backbreaking field and construction work for pennies and live in unheated shacks and decayed trailers with no running water and no electricity actually exploit them in this way?"
therasantorini
"Why not direct your outrage over the policies that undermine our working class such as NAFTA, CAFTA and corporate lobbyist ownership of our lawmakers?"
LibChicAZ
That one above is the best imo.
"But on a more serious note, let us not forget to add 'illegal immigration' to the list of 'issues,' abortion, gay marriage, gun control, healthcare, the 'wars on drugs and terror,' which neither party, Republicans especially and to a lesser extent Democrats, and their attendant, ancillary lobbying groups, ever wants resolved."
ets
The pols can't be like Mr Smith, ets. DC mesmerizes'em. They start out wanting their take to prevail. Pub policy however is going to bring too much crap down on America, so it's time for the Dems to carry the day.
cont.
"I have been to Venezuela, Chiapas, and Oaxaca, and have seen what organized people can accomplish." I have spent MUCHO time in Oaxaca (especially) and Chiapas. I have also seen what organized thugs like the APPO accomplish; I am personal friends with far too many middle and lower middle class Mexican citizens in Oaxaca who have seen their livelyhoods destroyed by what happened last year. I have not been to Venezuela (but want to go, the women are hot) but have my doubts about any leader who associates with and praises the thugs running Iran and Belarus.
"the immigrants in Paris learned to raise hell like that in the streets from the French." Yeah, who needs elections anyway? Governments should just be chosen by whoever can cause the biggest riot anyway. "Riots in the street" outside of the Broward County Florida election office in 2000 gave us George Bush, so it MUST be a good tactic.
"I guess that's why their quality of life is so much better than ours." France is riddled with racism. That is why the rioting happened. France has an unemployment rate that is stratospheric. That is also why they riot. The French police are not, to put it mildly, gentle with immigrants, or French citizens, with brown skin. That is why they riot. So much for quality of life.
"but don't blame that on the immigrants — blame that on our government." Can you find someone here blaming the immigrants? No one blames them, they are simply making logical choices based on their situation and the options available to them. I, at least, blame the government, both in the US for allowing them in, and in Mexico and other sending countries for crazy economic policies and labor laws that guarentee poverty. I cannot influence Mexico. I can influence my government.
"I plot my next escape as we speak." Don't go away mad, just go away.
"I have worked my ass off for peace and justice in this country . . . "
Really? With belligerence and obscenities?
"I'm not wasting another drop of energy or time [on] this country."
Thank you in advance.
I'm just sick and tired of all the American exceptionalism and racists in this country. I wasn't making a comparison between France and the US - I was just saying I got the hell out of this f***ed up country and I so didn't want to come back. The French can be racist, too (a little differently than here, though) but still, they let them in, they make it possible for people to immigrate and access their system. But while we're at it -- the immigrants in Paris learned to raise hell like that in the streets from the French. And they got results, too, if you will remember. Americans don't have a clue what real democracy looks like. We just sit here and watch as our goverment takes us and the whole planet to hell in a handbasket. Riots in the street -- j'en reve! When we "protest", we politely walk around the street, permit in hand, making sure we don't disturb anyone. In France, they shut the place down and don't let up until they get results. I guess that's why their quality of life is so much better than ours.
I plot my next escape as we speak. I have worked my ass off for peace and justice in this country and I've had it -- frankly, the majority of Americans deserve exactly what they have gotten and will get if we keep going down this road. I'm not wasting another drop of energy or time this country. There is no perfect government anywhere -- but there are other countries where the people actually stand up for themselves and hold their governments accountable. I have been to Venezuela, Chiapas, and Oaxaca, and have seen what organized people can accomplish.
And I do live in AZ and have been to the border many times. It is totally screwed up for everyone the way our SYSTEM works, but don't blame that on the immigrants -- blame that on our government -- which is supposed to be us, so I guess, it's all YOUR fault (and mine - even though I march with the immigrants, fight for their cause, donate for their safety, and do whatever I can to help make it so they don't have to risk being buried in our god forsaken desert). And my husband is an immigrant, too (of the white variety - so I guess he's a 'good' immigrant). He is legal of course because we are married, but he wasn't always. Still, no one ever complained about the good French food they got at Windows on the World (until our government blew it up).
Go ahead, flame me...I'm already out of here.
"There needs to be a victim for it to be a crime". First, funeocons, just because you can use "fuck" and "repug" in the same sentence does not mean you are building a convincing argument. There are PLENTY of victims of illegal immigration. Ambulances turned away from full emergency rooms contain victims. Ranchers in Arizona seeing their property destroyed by illegals are victims. All the black janitors in Los Angeles a generation ago who have lost their middle class livelyhoods are victims. Communities terrorized my MS 13 and Calle 18 thugs are victims.
You sound like another shill for the employers. Either that or you are afraid you will lose your underpaid nanny?
All this hate on a 'progressive' forum !! I guess the world is slowly figuring out how hateful and violent our soiciety really is. And all this while weve been blaming the republicans !
Paris? Is that Paris, France, where immigrants have staged violent riots in recent months and years? Where immigrants have burned thousands of vehicles and destroyed public and private property? Oh yeah, it's much more civilized there. Good point.
I will laugh my ass off the day that Mexico and all the other countries of the world round up all the illegal Americans in their countries, take their property, throw them in jail for months, and then drop them off starving and penniless in some random border town. As someone who has traveled, almost every American I have met living abroad was technically "illegal"...
If you are so freaked out by people being "illegal", then make it fucking legal for the ones who want to come here and work to come here. We are a country based on a growth economy for crying out loud. We have nothing to lose and everything to gain. But do not criminalize migration. Unauthorized status is an infraction. It is not a crime. There needs to be a victim for it to be a crime. Why don't we round up people and jail people for not renewing their vehicle registration on time? Or their driver licenses? I suppose I was an illegal immigrant for a while. My crime? I couldn't bare to leave Paris to come back to this uncivilized, uneducated, ignorant, racist country. I find it funny that whenever I complain about the US -- especially to a Repug -- the first thing they say is "then why don't you leave?" Ah, the double-standard hypocricy of Ameircans...
Bob K. I think you are on the right track here. I've previously suggested that the existing fines(which are up to $25,000 per violation per employer) should be fully enforced and the proceeds used for either resettlement allowances for immigrants directly impacted or jobs/infrastructure programs in Mexico and other source countries of illegal immigration.
This would be a clear win for the US working class-and Mexicans would be at least somewhat better off than in the existing situation.
Bob K. excellent idea. I actually wrote F.A.I.R. a letter suggesting something a little different. I think illegal aliens should have a special minimum wage, of $500.00 an hour, with full rights to sue for back pay, retroactive to the moment this law is passed, and long distance from country of origen if necessary. The ONLY defense an employer should have is that he used the social security verification system, and it gave him a false answer.
Immigrants, legal, illegal or here on visa systems like the H1B that is based on corporate lies, all serve to enhance the bottom lines of big business and the wealth of the elite. They and 95% of US citizens have no say in how the wealth generated by their efforts is distributed.
We need to enforce our existing laws and concentrate on big fines and jail terms for people who employ illegal aliens. Then we need put the screws on the Mexican elite and repeal NAFTA &c to stop US corporations from exploiting people, resources and the environment south of the border, elsewhere abroad (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/were-these-same-people-ap_b_54470.html for the latest)... and here at home.
Here's something from which you can draw your own conclusions:
Google "____ most wanted". Use any city or state in the US.
Look at the surnames. I think you'll be surprised.
WE really don't need anymore poor in this country, period. Crime and violence affecting your family is not as random as you think. There was s shooting at a party near campus here when a group of young latino men were asked to leave,. They were not students. With their "latino machismo" insulted they came back with a gun, shot a girl and shot into the bathroom at random. My daughter was at the party. She's an A/B student and a good girl.
You can call me a bigot if you'd like; I realize that's the default reply by most who disagree. I've seen too much of this behavior in the latino community and I believe it's because they aren't interested in truly integrating.
It should be noted that the Tancredo/Buchanan supporters Ms. Brooks despises so much, are largely former Democrats:
" 'Buchanan crowds don't look like Republican crowds,' [David] Brooks sneered. 'There are none of those Chamber of Commerce officers in golf shirts and tasselled loafers. Instead, Buchanan draws the beefy, 300-pound guys with tattoos up their arms and sleeveless T-shirts. He draws the guys with shaggy biker beards and the Teamsters who park their rigs in the lot and get hoarse shouting, "Go, Pat, go!" It may be hard to classify exactly which political category these people belong to, but they are certainly not Republicans. ["Buchanan Feeds Class War in the Information Age" David Brooks, LA Times, Oct 31, 1999]
Actually, it's not so hard to classify which political category such people belong to. They're called 'Democrats,' and the contempt for them that our Mr. Brooks exudes helps explain why they never show up in the crowds around other Republican candidates."
It should be noted that the LA Times where this article was first published is heavily dependent on corporate advertising and that Ms. Brooks is also associated with George Soros.
I expect that the advertisers of the LA Times and Mr. Soros can make money replacing the existing American population with newer immigrant groups. One question is whether this really improves the world as a whole.
I am shocked by the level of hate and racism pouring out of so called progressives. How is hating poor, powerless brown people helping the plight of our working class?
Why not direct your outrage over the policies that undermine our working class such as NAFTA, CAFTA and corporate lobbyist ownership of our lawmakers? Why not support unions and educate yourself on the upcoming trade policies and contact your congresscritters?
I guess it's easier to hate the "fat Mexican woman" you see at the grocery store than hate the policies that support corporate welfare.
I've repeatedly written in these forums that the "illegal immigration" framing is corporate PR, and the real issue is "corporate insourcing of low-wage replacement workers," or simply "illegal employers." I've also said the solution is to fine and jail the illegal employers until they change their hiring practices, and that without jobs the migrants will voluntarily return to their home countries. No deportation. No fence.
Many agree, but others say that compassion for the migrants trumps the corporate crimes and the harm to working Americans and the country.
So, I've now hit on a new idea. We enforce existing laws providing fines and penalties for illegal employers, yes. But in addition we pass a new law providing that illegal employers must also pay a severance bonus of $10,000 to any illegal alien they are caught employing.
This would provide one more incentive for employers to hire U.S. citizens, and would also be compassionate to the illegal migrants who would be traveling home at their own expense. Perhaps the bonuses would only be payable in their home countries.
Any thoughts on mandatory severance pay?
Ms Rosa may not know this, but, while the US is Number One in the world for obesity, Mexico is Number Two. And gaining.
But, hey, I am fat and lazy. I guess I have a right to basically import a slave from Mexico to work for me for a pittance. I am not sure how this is "progressive", but it sure sounds good.
Yeah, what trippin said,"Rosa, love it or leave it".
I have another suggestion for you Trippin, perhaps you could take time off from this thread and take Spanish lessons.
jp, your point about the rise of fear of terrorism and exploiting immigrant xenophobia is excellent.
there's a very simple solution to the problems plaguing the US right now:
CUT THE DOD BUDGET IN HALF!!! hell, cut it by 80%. redirect 300 billion dollars a year toward a more productive economy, and most of this BS would go away in a decade.
there's more than enough $$ to deal humanely w/the problem of immigration. but the diversion of resources into war creates artificial scarcity that pits working people against each other. as Orwell said in 1984, "the purpose of warfare is to MAINTAIN THE CLASS STRUCTURE OF SOCIETY." this is true in the new war on immigrants: pitting working people against each other costs the economic elites NOTHING.
As soon as the government issues all Americans their get out of jail free card no one gets out of jail free.
ILLEGAL is ILLEGAL. I'm sick of hearing about a nation of immigrants. Our ancestors came through the front door, adapted, worked and PAID TAXES. They didn't sneak across the border in the dark of night, disgrace our flag, steal our jobs, learned English and were actually proud of becoming Americans. We were taught growing up just how fortunate we were to be Americans. Our ancestors didn't send billions of dollars to the motherland, insult Americans and expect everyone to learn and speak their language so they could garner more socila services, free medical care, free education, and expect the American government to disregard their citizens to provide them with shelter, businesses, free food, free medical care and then dip into the Social Security to hand out to those whose only payment into it was using someone elses identity.
The damage caused by illegal immigranfs have devastated the American people, infastructure, and culture to award with one of our most honorable title...American!
Sovereignty mean anything to you?
It's an insult to every American when our government and people like yourself say, These folks are just coming here for a better way of life, They are doing jobs Americans won't do, They just want a better life for their children. Reminder, the immigrants who built this country, served this country and raised their children in the fashion, if you work hard, pay your taxes you can be whatever you dream. That dream has been long removed. Americans built this country, fought and died for this country. My suggestion, if your homeland is that miserable, instead of running to America to steal every benefit you can get your hands on, then send nearly all your money back home so your remaining family there can live like royalty, go back home and get rid of your corrupt government and build a country you can be as proud of as Americans.
We may not be all that, but it's ours and Americans love it, believe in it and will fight for it.
I have a great idea. Rosa, why don't you get your obese American ass south across the border and assimilate yourself there, and let Americans worry about America's future.
No one is terrified of anyone. We demand that American jobs be for American citizens FIRST. That includes Mexican-Americans, African-Americans, Asian-Americans, and yes, Rosa, the white European-Americans that disgust you so.
And we're not going to cave regardless of your filthy racist rhetoric.
evalyna is typical of a Faux News listener. Let's look at her arguments.
"I heard 1 out of every 4 criminals in prison are illegals in jail for crimes(not being illegal)) real crimes of theft and violence."
You heard that on talk radio. As the column points out, immigrants are 75% LESS likely to engage in crime than the normal population.
"The mexican women I see in the stores are all overweight."
So are the Anglos of the same social level. It is related to the diet that you can afford. From my own observation the women in Mexico City are thinner than the women in Minneapolis.
"Hispanics have a high rate of diabetes because they do not eat proper".
That's "properly," lady. And the reason for that is genetic since the genes causing diabetes also favor surviving famine which was an annual occurence in Latin America 400 years ago. And Americans are as bad as the Mexicans ever thought of being. Our obesity level is much worse than the Mexicans ever thought of achieving.
"Grocery stores carry Irish,Russian,Indian,asian,etc. food."
So what's your point, that they should only carry Northern European food?
"What happens when the jobs dry up and we have additional people with no way to earn?"
You are absolutely right! We need to send anyone with Eastern European, Southern European or Asian background back to where they came from. It would be so great to get rid of those wops, dagos, micks, hunkies, kikes, wogs, bohunks, and other vermin. After all, this country was settled by English, Germans, and Africans (although not by choice, Does that count?). Oh, yeah. And the Spanish were here before any of them.
If I have to read some stuffed shirt pontificating about being a legal immigrant, I think I will throw up. These legal immigrants are those who had the money or political pull to jump the line to get their documents. The poor schmuck from the campo doesn't have that opportunity. They would have to wait more than a lifetime for legal papers. Before you get all hoity-toity about illegal immigrants, do you really think that the undocumented immigrants really don't want to be legal? How are they going to do it? The US only issues a pitifully small number of visas and green cards to each country. How is someone who doesn't have pull going to ever get one of them? You holier-than-thou jerks need to be ashamed of yourselves.
High minded or lowbrowed arguments notwithstanding, doesn't anyone realize we are creating a slave underclass here? How can anyone who calls him or herself a liberal progressive, anyone who rightly admires the work ethic of immigrants legal and illegal willing to do backbreaking field and construction work for pennies and live in unheated shacks and decayed trailers with no running water and no electricity actually exploit them in this way? I have actually heard people say that it is perfectly fine for "those Mexicans" to live in these conditions because a shack here is so much better than the cardboard huts they have at home. Those comments don't even deserve a response. I challenge anyone on the side of open immigration and amnesty of any stripe to first visit the homes and communities of migrant workers in America and have a look at their living conditions. See if you feel justified in bringing more families here to live in such squalor so you can eat cheap strawberries grown on the factory farms you say you can't stand. If your head is about to explode from the contradiction, maybe you should consider sheet mulching your lawn, planting and picking your own strawberries.
As long as we have no qualms about globalizing capital we should have no qualms about immigration ... legal or illegal. We are only too happy to stuff 'liberalization of economies' down unsuspecting throats ( its a euphamism for theft ) but we are not willing to accept immigrants from those very countries. If our ancestors ( the Native Americans) held the same views we would have our asses kicked back to the old world.
Who is helping to curb illegal immigration?
1. Chavez by making things better for people in Latin America so they won't have to immigrate.
2. Planned Parenthood for preventing unwanted births, thereby helping to curb overpopulation that results in immigration.
3. Bush by killing people, thereby preventing overpopulation in the most stupid and cruel way possible.
Who is helping to foment illegal immigration?
1. Countries who bomb people's homes in other countries.
2. Corporations looking for slave labor in other countries, stealing resources, impoverishing their people, polluting their land, water and air, propping up military dictatorships and turning people to consumerism.
3. Religions and politicians against family planning.
Proposed solutions that don't address these problems are doomed.
I heard 1 out of every 4 criminals in prison are illegals in jail for crimes(not being illegal)) real crimes of theft and violence.
The mexican women I see in the stores are all overweight.
Hispanics have a high rate of diabetes because they do not eat proper. Diabetes is very expensive. Most Americans cannot afford the disease themselves yet we have to support the "hard workings" self chosen disease.
Grocery stores carry Irish,Russian,Indian,asian,etc. food.
I do not see the benefit of taking low skilled people into the country. The USA has more or less told the citizens of this country if they are unskilled they deserve low wages and no healthcare. They do not care we are hard working.
Globalization and the computer have created a need for fewer people. Businesses who want to hold on by hiring part time people at a dollar or two are only living in denial.
What happens when the jobs dry up and we have additional people with no way to earn?
Americans are living with roomates and family members too.
We see and live in hardship.
We get hurt on jobs that will not compensate us because the money goes to people not here legally or other nationality excuses.
We watch jobs dry up and go away. We work harder and for less.
No, we do not want to work for nothing.
Most of illegals are working under the table.
I agree with iwarrior, What a Dumb Article.
I don;t care about them "breaking the law". The illegals shouldn't be blamed in this. It's big business and our gov't that is culpable in this.
And maybe these immigrants are smarter, more educated, and better workers? If that's the case, isn't it then just another example of America spoiling other countries by raiding them of their natural resources? Why should we drain these nations of their candlepower?
I wanted to followup with this link from my earlier post about Iraqis and the fact that only a few hundred have been grated asylum here in the US. After pressure from human rights groups the Administration will allow only 7,000 this year to come legally.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4-qlwjlC5Y
Iraqis are the most highly educated of all the Arabs and are arguably the most highly skilled. We are turning them away in droves ironic after we hold at least some responsibility (some people would argue all) for the current mess there. Instead we have politicans calling for the granting of asylum to illegal immigrants who are breaking our laws.
"We're fat, decadent and getting dumber all the time."
Oh ok, this is lovely. The Right demonizes immigrants, so the Left should ridicule and denigrate Americans then right?
I don't know a lot of decadent people. They're just trying to pay their bills.
"Our life expectancy, which rose for most of the last two centuries, is stalling because so many of us are obese."
And many of those people are poor since fast food is cheaper than health food.
"we market thong underwear to prepubescent girls"
And how many actually buy them? This is widespread? Other countries don't sexualize youth? Thailand?
"and a growing number of adults think a McMansion with fewer than one bathroom per resident is the height of privation."
And how many Americans can actually afford one of those? They're barely making the rent on their half of a McDuplex.
Yep, immigrants are better. Their cultures have absolutely no underbellies to speak of. American workers are bad, bad people. Those immigrants are coming to compete against and defeat us. We deserve it. We're dumb, fat, and lazy. So let's let everyone else in from all over creation, as many as possible, until there's no one left anywhere else...but in America.
I'm not a xenophobe. I'm just sick and damn tired of working Americans being kicked around. The Right and the elites already stick it to us all.
What a dumb article.
I agree with Bob K. and shakker.
Corrupt and rotten U.S. government is why we have any immigration problem. The president and congress needs to enforce current law or pass whatever law they will actually enforce.
To allow an invasion of 12 to 20 million people to come into the country without even bothering to find out who they are is clearly an impeachable offense under any reasonable interpretation of our Constitution and laws.
The majority of people do not want illegal immigrants. The majority do want orderly, legal immigration in fairly large numbers.
Most people who talk about this demonize the other side. ("xenophobe", "racist", etc. etc,)
Anyone who thinks it is ok to openly tolerate violation of the rule of law can expect that other people may take a notion to ignore the law of their choice.
jp - The illegals I blame are the illegal employers. The issue should be called corporate insourcing of low-wage replacement workers.
The "illegal immigration" framing is corporate PR. First, they aren't immigrants, they are migrants who come here for work and leave their families in their home countries where costs are a tiny fraction of what they are here. Second, that framing prompts people of conscience to a knee-jerk reaction, favoring the "poor immigrants" and forgetting the working-poor U.S. citizens who have to support their families here in the U.S.
I agree with you that U.S. economic policies are hurting people in other countries. I disagree that the solution is to destroy the lives of middle-class and poor Americans, and our country in the process.
Call it "two wrongs don't make a right," "out of the frying pan, into the fire," whatever you like. We need to preserve our own democracy if we have any hope of reversing the oligarchy's globalist policies.
Read Thom Hartmann on the subject. Take action against Monsanto, Bush and Clinton if you want to. Don't smear working Americans as lazy, or bigoted, or whiners.
Bob K. I understand what you are saying, because I am in precisely that situation. I can no longer expect to get the kind of job, income, benefits that I had in the 1970s. It's a brutal world, and enraging. But I understand that the same corporate power that has brought us "free" trade policies that have undermined the ability of Mexican farmers to survive in their own country has also undermined the labor movement here, just as you describe. I don't blame the "Mexicans" or other easy targets, but a system that puts profits above all else. It's troubling to me that we hear a great stream of rhetoric against the "illegal immigrants" but very little directed at corporate capitalism. I like to focus on where the real power lies. I don't believe people leave their homes, families, culture, often at the risk of their lives, because they just want to fuck people out of the jobs that should go to the "natives." I believe we are all being victimized by the same greedy inhuman system. Blaming the "illegals" is a diversion from the real problem.
Really, in my first post I had hoped to shift the focus more toward understanding why this issue has become so dominant in public discourse in recent years. With respect to "the terrorists," I think focusing on "illegal aliens" who come here from Mexico to work is a waste of time. I believe that it is linked, unconsciously or not, to fear of the "alien other," and that kind of fear is always greatly intensified during times of war and national insecurity. I believe the war has perverted our sense of justice and decency.
I always wondered if those men who most feared feminists were simply afraid that women would kick their sorry a$$es on a level playing field. Perhaps the latest xenophobia being capitalized on by the paleoconservatives is simply another manifestation of those who fear playing fair because they're secretly afraid they'll lose.
I have cherokee and creek blood in my family. Does this give me the right to displace someone who's family arrived 40 years ago.NO.
Three MILLION illegal Mexicans entered the US last year. This number is growing at the rate of 8% a year. That means in 9 years we will be looking at 6 MILLION illegal immigrants from Mexico alone. This is a catastrophe in the making. Something must be done.
I would like to remind people that Latinos have more Native American blood in them than Spanish. In other words; their ancestors were here before our white European ancestors. When these "laws" were made, that some seem to think are sacrosanct, by our white male ancestors, the Native Americans were not consulted in the making of these laws, nor were women. I don't feel any obligation to abide by laws that were made by one special interest group (white males) when women and the original inhabitants of this land had no say in making them. Keep the borders open so I can still get out!!
Which illegal immigrants aren't obese?
Well, not, of course, the ones who jump over the border fence. We're talking about the ones who work awhile, then suffer a "fall" in a store, sue the store, go on disability, occasionally send their kids to public school, live in public housing perhaps with a "pusher" who's holding the mom hostage for some crime of hers.
Yet by law, I can't ask the mom if she's a legal immigrant...might infringe on her rights.
Who designed this system?
jp - Focusing on the illegal alien crisis "is just a waste of energy" as long as it's not your job that's vanished. As long as it's not your wages that have been cut by 7/8th. As long as it's not your benefits that have disappeared.
Borrowing from Martin Niemöller's poem about the inactivity of German intellectuals following the Nazi rise to power:
When the fascists came for the factory workers,
I remained silent;
I was not a factory worker.
When they came for the carpenters,
I remained silent;
I was not a carpenter.
When they came for the computer programmers,
I did not speak out;
I was not a computer programmer.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out.
How eye-opening it is that even here, in a supposedly enlightened community of progressives, we are reduced reactionary hyperbole.
Those of you who advocate deporting between 12 and 20 million people have NO idea what that task would entail. It would certainly involve creating an enormous, brand new Department....probably the Deportation Department. And, don't forget, our own laws provide that the kids of even illegal immigrants are American citizens. Change that law, if you can and if you like, but it's on the books right now, so we cannot ignore it.
It is very interesting to me that the "illegal alien crisis" surfaced as a "pressing problem" after 9/11 and after the US invasion and occupation of Iraq.
National consciousness shifted to the "alien enemy within" for obvious reasons after 9/11 but to focus attention on the most vulnerable, poor Mexicans who often risk their lives trying to get here in order to earn enough money to support their families back home is just a waste of energy and hardly keeps us any safer from terrorist attack. They are an easy target and thus give us a sense of deluded power to prevent another attack. As others have argued, US "free trade" treaties as well its history of interventionist efforts at undermining of reform in Latin America have helped to foster the horrendous economic inequity that brings about worker migration. We reap what we sow, then we blame the victims.
The horrendous daily images of what our occupation of Iraq has wrought in terms of misery and death in that country have also made us fearful of
invasion. Although I think this operates at a subliminal level, we fear being victimized in the way we have victimize others so blatantly and horribly in the Middle East. The national articulation of fear of "broken borders" and invasion by "illegal aliens" who are seen as less human than ourselves mirrors a deeper fear of helplessness that the US's actions against helpless civilians in Iraq evokes.
Why doesn't someone ask the Mexican government, who sanctamoniously lecture us on the rights of illegal immigrants, how they treat their own illegals. Thousands of Guatemalians pour over the border of Mexico every year. If caught, they are stripped of all their money, imprisoned, many times raped or beaten, and dumped over the border.
As far as the idea that immigrants from such countries as Canada or Australia being given a free pass, I know from personal experience that this is false. I have friends from both Canada and Aus, business owners, who are constantly harrased by the government about the status in this country.
Both are here legally, contribute to the economy, employ americans, and pay taxes. They have been denied entry, have been required to go back to there country of origin to renew their paperwork, called on by the INS on multiple occasions, and told that they don't "live" in the U.S.
Meanwhile, ILLEGAL immigrants are apparently welcome in my town, as they live quite openly and are not bothered in the least. In fact, most social services now target this "underserved" community.
Welcome to all Legal immigrants. Illegal immigrants need to be intercepted and sent back to their country of origin. Prosecute any employer who hires them.
And how about deducting $1000 from our foreign aid and loans for every illegal that we catch and have to repatriate back to Mexico and other places. I bet they would then show more interest in controlling their borders.
I see Miss Rosa is at it again:
Harvard sociology professor Robert Sampson suggests that increased immigration may have been a factor in reduced crime rates in the 1990s.
The study said:
In any case, for residents and leaders alike,we
found no difference between blacks and whites in the way racial or ethnic composition predicts perceptions of disorder.
http://www.wjh.harvard.edu/soc/faculty/sampson/2004.6_SPQ.pdf
I think illegals are illegals, no matter what country. We don't need new immigration laws, we just need to enforce the ones we have. We can start with the companies that employ illegals by enforcing the law and increasing the fine so that the money they save by hiring illegals at substandard wages are eaten up in fines.
safiyyah: What's all this about being for immigrants only if they are here 'legally'? Many of those that come 'legally' are thugs who have cooperated with the US government's illegal intervention in their own countries, and often gotten rich at times from doing so.
The vast majority of legal immigrants are not thugs! Yes, maybe there are a few but by far not the majority.
What is wrong with people?
I went to the grocery store and walked passed the Asian and Hispanic food sections in the American food store. Right next to the Hispanic foods were bottles of spaghetti sauce, but I did not see an Italian food section sign. Next to the spaghetti was the pasta A.K.A. Chinese noodles, but I did not see pasta in the Asian food section. Americans have forgotten that America is a diverse group with many different cultures that have contributed to our so-called American culture.
America is a nation of immigrants and we are unique because of this fact. America is/was also a nation of laws and we have benefited from that also. The article tries to blend together legal and illegal immigration as if they were the same. People also want to place illegal immigration on the same level as speeding. If there was nothing wrong with illegal immigration then it probably would not be law preventing illegal immigration and our borders would be open. But, there is a problem and so it is necessary for America to secure all of its borders for numerous reasons, some of them aimed at protecting illegal immigrants from exploitation (Mexican farmworkers, American Chinese sweat shops, current slave trade in the America, etc...).
14 million known illegal immigrants displaces millions of American, jobs, homes and services.
Millions law abiding resident immigrants create the culture and diversity that makes America unique.
Yeah, Mexican government's responsibility, sure. But it was after NAFTA, that millions of Mexicans from the impoverished agriculture sector had to flee.
So it's not just Mexican government's fault, it's also the U.S. Besides, NAFTA affected not only Mexico, but also a lot of people here in the U.S. in manufacturing lost their jobs.
Obvously the well-being of people is not in the interest of corporations, elites and the governments
Plus, if the U.S. government (richest nation in the world) does not ensure its own people jobs, healthcare, education, etc; you think other countries will?
So the issue here is NOT who to blame for the problem (there are too many guilty), but find the solution, which is stop making immigrants felons. And yes, make the U.S. and Mexican government find a way to sort it out (just like they sorted out NAFTA).
Mexicans would not come here if there were not jobs for them in the first place.
On the other hand, if they were able to cross the border easily back and forth, I bet they would NOT bring their families here, and that would reduce the immigration problem significatively.
I know you are going to say: "how are we going to open the border?" Well, let me tell you something, the border is open for citizens of the European Union, Canada, Australia to mention some (they don't need visas), for obvious reasons, but who tells you a terrorist could not bear a EU passport and enter the country easily, without having to cross illegally by any of the U.S. borders?
Anyway, the Mexican government is a mafia, commits human rights abuses, opresses opposition and has a very powerful elite. So a class revolution there is not very likely. We need to learn Mexican history (past and current) to better understand the immigration phenomenon.
What's all this about being for immigrants only if they are here 'legally'? Many of those that come 'legally' are thugs who have cooperated with the US government's illegal intervention in their own countries, and often gotten rich at times from doing so.
I once flew back from Central America to Houston with the long time leader of Guatemala's death squads on board 2 seats ahead of me. Do people think that such a 'legal' visitor is some how better than the poor folk rounded up like animals at the Border? They are wrong if they do think that.
If the US intervenes in illegal manner all over the world in other countries' affars, it's a little dishonest and disingenous to then want to keep out 'foreigners', is its not? If you don't want 'illegal immigration' then stop your own government's illegal activities abroad first. Then you might have some moral ground to stand on. As it is, all should be welcome until the US gets its butt out of other people's countries.
Provoice... exactly! We cannot afford to grant amnesty with the huge deficits this country has! Illegal immigrants cost taxpayers money.
principessaflamenco but shouldn't that be the Mexican government's responsibility to ensure their people have economic benefits, healthcare, jobs etc.? Our own healthcare system is over burdened right now.
My other issue with illegal amnesty is it benefits one ethnic group of people..latinos especially Mexican latinos over other immigrants like the Iraqis in my statement above or Asians, Africans, Europeans, Canadians etc. How then was this illegal amnesty bill fair?
This is one of the funniest commentaries I've read in quite a while. Not to mention the usual "my ancestors came here legally," "what don't you understand about illegal" diatribes.
Thank you, Rosa!
But on a more serious note, let us not forget to add "illegal immigration" to the list of "issues," abortion, gay marriage, gun control, healthcare, the "wars on drugs and terror," which neither party, Republicans especially and to a lesser extent Democrats, and their attendant, ancillary lobbying groups, ever wants resolved.
The status quo suits our economic system to a T. The nation's major hotel/motel and restaurant chains, meat packers and small building contractors will continue hiring so-called undocumented workers, or "illegal immigrants," from southern Mexico, Honduras, Nicaragua,El Salvador and Guatemala, much to the benefit of their bottom line. The America consumer, even those who "just want people to come here legally," will always turn a blind eye to the reality of the situation, as long as they keep getting those low, low everyday prices.
And so we, the America public, will continue being played for fools.
Ok, so it's illegal to cross the border without permission and I can see the implications. However, the reality is that if most Latin Americans applied for a visa it would be very likely denied to them. So if they want to advance, they have no other choice but to risk their lives at the US-Mex border.
In my opinion, criminalizing people for the fact that all they want to do is feed their families and give their children better education and opportunities, is immoral.
And actually, if any people in the U.S. had the right to complain that would be the Native Americans. So how is it that when the Europeans colonizers came here and stole their land, murdered them, and packed them away in reservations was not considered "illegal immigration"? Instead, these so-called undocumented aliens are here to work and better themselves only, they are not trying to take over the land or masacre americans.
I think all of you whose ancestors came from other countries should be more understanding and realize that if you were born here, is because your forefathers left behind their land of origin, since it didn't offer a good standard of living then (just like the countries south of the border don't offer it now).
There are viable solutions to this problem, and american governments should unify and find solutions. But placing blame on disempowered people who are nothing but economic refugees is disgusting.
Few people understand the ramifications of illegal immigration more than Floridians.
We have been "blessed" by tens of thousands of illegal immigrants from Cuba, Haiti, Nicaragua, and countless other countries for years.
Our public schools are overwhelmed by non-English speaking students, our hospitals overwhelmed with patients using false identities and not paying, our social services are overwhelmed with Aid to Families with Dependent Children and Food Stamps, and the bottom 20% of income earning American citizens have to compete with these people for jobs.
An extremely large percentage of Florida's automobile accidents are caused by illegal aliens without insurance, and the Latino gangs like MS-13 and the Latin Kings have shootouts in broad daylight on our city streets... like last Summer on exclusive South Beach in Miami.
Sure, many are hard-working people with families... but MANY are NOT.
We need to seal our borders, develop a decent system for identifying the illegals, deport the felons, and determine EXACTLY what the rest of them are costing the taxpayers... before we do ANYTHING about granting citizenship!
Let's dispel the "noble immigrant" myth already - the idea that all the people who went through the US's immigration process over the last 230 years are more proper, more "law-abiding" - and do I detect a strong whiff of "morally superior"?
I made this point in my local newspaper: if the Ireland, Italy, Germany, of 100 years ago, or the Vietnam of 30 years ago, etc., were physically connected to the US by a long, convenient land boundary, the people who wanted to emigrate from those countries to the US would have poured, snuck, or waltzed across the border, in a way very similar to the Mexicans of today, regardless of US immigration policy towards them.
The common denominator behind most emigration is escape of bad economic or political circumstances. When a poor country is adjacent to a rich country, people will take risks to improve their lives, no matter who they are, where they are.
Neomunk I respect the laws of this country and no I don't speed while driving as I don't drive. As I live in a city I take public transportation.
What part of ILLEGAL immigration is it so hard for people to understand. Immigration is vital and one of our great strengths. It gives our culture a periodic shot in the arm as new immigrants revive our culture. WE JUST WANT PEOPLE TO COME LEGALLY AND ABIDE BY OUR LAWS.
the standards of yesterday can not be the standards of today. the world is moving faster than the system can keep up. for many people coming to the u.s.a. today, to have stayed where they were is a slow death. what choice would you make? even ameikkka is a more attractive option. just look what has happen under this present administration if you don't believe that the changes are coming faster and faster. we have the globalization of coporations. we need the globalization of populations.
In the past several years only a few hundred Iraqis were granted asylum. This year under pressure from a variety of groups the administration granted 7,000 Iraqi refugees asylum. This is the same administration that bombed Iraq. However, Bush is happy to give millions of illgeals from Latin America Asylum. Please tell me how is that fair to the Iraqis? If anybody should be granted amnesty its them.
To want to immigrate to AmeriKKKa,legal or illegal, you would have to be 'barking mad'....
George Orwell's prescient presaging even underestimated Hobbesian nightmare it's all become...
In my previous post's comparison I forgot to mention the punishments for illegal immigration, but this being Common Dreams, most of us are aware of the horrid and inhuman punishments that can await someone caught here without official permission. If you're not, browse back through the posts here for a bit and inform yourself. It's ugly, it's wrong, and it's emotional damnation to those who become accustomed to these atrocities being carried on in their name.
dcbeltway: Just wanted to remind you that you're a criminal too. That's right. The system is so gamed that I'm sure if you thought about it you could name a law you've broken (most people can name one they break on a regular basis, speeding in a vehicle comes to mind) and probably more than one.
Speaking of speeding, which is worse, speeding or illegal immigration? With speeding you're purposely putting many other people's lives in danger in order to gain a little (very little) convenience. It's a crime of ego, thinking that you're skilled enough to handle this potentially murderous piece of steel whilst usually not even considering the factors that went into placing that specific speed limit there. Same thing with tailgating, riding too close to avoid collision if someone has to stop suddenly. These are crimes that claim (at least) hundreds of lives DAILY. The punishment for these deadly crimes? Small fines, never over $1000.
Illegal immigration on the other hand gets nobody killed (except possibly the poor person attempting the act), is arguably more beneficial to society than detrimental and is NOT a crime of ego, but of desperation.
My point is not that speeders be hanged, or that illegal immigrants be given medals, it's that we REALLY need to reexamine our priorities in this country, and this belongs WAY on the bottom of the list.
I married an immigrant from Afghanistan. He came here legally. My ancestors were immigrants from Ireland and they came here legally. I am all for legal immigration. I am against illegal immigration. People should not be rewarded for breaking the laws of the United States especially when legal immigrants wait their turn for years to become permanent residents and citizens. Many immigration applicants are also turned away at our Embassies all over the world. I do believe immigrants are incredibly hard working but please lets reward the legal ones!
Princepessa: On the other hand, if they were able to cross the border easily back and forth, I bet they would NOT bring their families here, and that would reduce the immigration problem significatively.
I'm sorry based on your whole argument of they are coming here for economic opportunities of course they'll bring their families.
you can't know how to solve a problem if you don't know the origin of the problem.
immigrants (esp. mexicans) are coming here obviously for economic reasons. what is the source of their economic difficulty? why is it impossible for millions of mexicans (and others) to live in their own country, even just at a subsistence level?
b/c their elites, in servility to the US, have made it impossible to survive there. this is the function of NAFTA, WTO, etc. if you look at almost any issue, the mexican elite operate in total subservience to the gringo.
why are you more concerned about a fictional boundary b/n the US & mexico, a boundary that exists only in the mind, which makes people "illegal", and less concerned about the massive economic injustices afflicting workers on both sides of the border?
"illegals" are the natural allies of workers in the US, since they are victims of the same capitalist forces destroying livelihoods around the world. but the economic elite will divide us from our brothers & sisters, as they have done so effectively in the past, w/every other immigrant community, and esp. blacks. they'll tell you you can get yours if you keep mexicans from getting any, but in the end we'll all lose.
iwarrior you do have a point but slamming immigrants is not the answer to a systemic problem. Scapegoating the underclass is not an american tradition. I dont profess to have all the answers but this doesnt seem right and my base instinct is to side with the underprivileged.
"Americans? We're fat, decadent and getting dumber all the time."
"Illegal immigrants . . . doing the backbreaking work so few native-born Americans have the inclination to do."
"Immigrants put us to shame . . . they may well displace us."
"Thursday's death of the immigration reform bill . . . might slow the cultural displacement, but it won't stop it."
CommonDreams could do a lot better than reprinting bigotry, hate mongering and lies.
The amnesty/open borders bill that was killed in the Senate Thursday amounted to a fraud of the "you've won a million dollars, but you need to send us $1000 first" variety. It would have legalized an unknown number of illegal aliens (12-60 million) and given amnesty to illegal employers who have been breaking immigration and tax laws for the past 21 years. In exchange it promised strengthened border security and provisions against illegal employers, but the promise was a lie.
When the Democratic leader, Senator Reid, was asked why the bill's enforcement provisions weren't mandatory, but were instead left to the discretion of the administration, he said:
"At least for the next 18 months, President
Bush is our President. His Cabinet officers —
two of whom have been heavily
involved in this legislation, Secretary
Chertoff and Secretary Gutierrez — have
confirmed that this money will go
to border security . . . the administration assured all of us this money will be used in a
manner to make our border more secure."
Well that's great. We can certainly trust the assurances of fools, incompetents and liars! But, gee, what would happen after Bush leaves office? I guess the next administration wouldn't be bound by Bush's "assurances."
Senator Sessions told of a letter he'd received from a "master carpenter" in Florida who at one time had been able to earn as much as $75,000/year. Now, due to illegal aliens flooding the market, he could barely make a living. When Sessions told Senator Kennedy of this, Kennedy replied "Well, we're raising the minimum wage." Such is the ignorance and arrogance of one of the bill's chief sponsors.
The Congressional Budget Office said the bill would have reduced illegal immigration by just 13%. The U.S. Border Patrol said the bill would have been a disaster. But, corporate Democrats in the Senate refused to discuss these facts, and instead stuck to their rhetorical script.
Opinion polls consistently showed Americans opposing the bill by a two to one margin.
Still, the corporate Democrats soldiered on, trying to commit political suicide and wreck their party's chances for a Democratic presidency and Congress in 2008.
This was a battle that exposed the corporate politicians in both parties. (Socialist Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont voted against the bill.) The corporatists lost this round, and the nation dodged a bullet.
For enlightened information and background on this topic, please read leftist writer Thom Hartmann (yes, even published here on CommonDreams):
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0329-21.htm
http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0705-23.htm