The proper defender of the atheist side is not the neo-con war supporter Hitchens but scientist Dawkins, in an attempt to balance between atheists and believers the person he holds up as an atheist is a straw man and weak thinker.

It is ironic that in a country as religious ridden as the US there is anyone (progressive)who wanted to attack writers who identify the negative impact of religion on civil and secular society. (even if it is Hitchens). As the rest of the world suffers from the domination of fundamentalism surley all attacks on irrationality should be welcome.

The perhaps most powerful passage in Huckleberry Finn was when Huck was torn between two choices. Huck had been taught to believe the slave Jim was 'property' and that to help Jim escape to freedom was akin to stealing. Huck had also been taught that 'stealing' was a mortal sin and certain damnation to hell. Huck's choice either steal and go to hell or turn Jim back in. After a few days and nights with Jim, Huck decides in favor of Jim's freedom and says to himself, "All right. I'll go to hell then."

If we consider the biblical stories as metaphor, rather than take them literally as fundamentalists do, they are often about such choices. If a heavenly creator bestows upon us an inherent sense of the difference between right and wrong, what better way to test that sense than to make the decision difficult? No doubt, most conservatives of Huck Finn's time (and our own time too) would decide Jim was property and hell the fitting punishment for stealing.

Hitchen's extremism can't match the theocratic right's, but it's a start.

Believe we are need of cheering up with a few words from the Great Unyun.
Thank AC, nice to be back in the saddle again, no matter how bad the following is, I had fun with it anyway.

Now the great Unyun could have it's own idea of walk this way, except, since the Unyun does not have any legs, one can be innovative.

Will walk the best it can and in happiness and will praise you for eight times for your walking any way you want.
Drinking the juice of the great Unyun, can be exhilarating, but does give Unyun breath, making for social repercussions.
Great Unyun cares little about your high and low places, and the only car kiss the great Unyun cares about is the one's you did in high school, so be it.
Since the great Unyun dost not believe in souls, why comment on them, unless you are talking about fish.
Making cities waste, the Great Unyun believes this to be a great waste of positive energy, cities are doing a good jobs of making waste themselves. As for savouring sweet odours, the great Unyun is beside her self for what that is to mean, so disregard it.
Astonishing idiots is not in Great Unyuns scope of enlightenment, so the desolation of land would only patronize them.

Fishwitch

She,

Sorry to rile you with my stream of unconscious ranting. Yep, lesser of two weasels is the deal. It does suck. They don't make candidates like John Glenn anymore. And when they did they f'd with them anyway.

I'm not so sure that a percentage of our troops tow the pc line when speaking to the media. If they spoke in anti-war terms they would likely be abu ghraibed by their mates. There's got to be others like Pat Tillman that have come to realize "what the f*** are we doing". We just never hear from them.

You nailed it Antichrist. 9/11, al qaeda was 2000 strong but the world was on our side. A few years, they're 20,000 strong and now we couldn't get our remaining allies to piss on us if we were on fire. All of that money and time has done nothing but make the world more unstable and the US more vulnerable. Welcome to the North American Union.

Grilled Tuna Steak with a tequila sunrise

nf,

If middle-eastern despots (sheiks what have you) are the only ones receiving the $60-$70 a barrel it is stealing. There's virtually no trickle down from the selling off of these resources. If there were, disgruntled Saudi men would not be flying planes into our skyscrapers.

We're knee deep in every country but Saudi Arabia. What percentage of the 9/11 terrorists were listed by the FBI as being from Saudi Arabia? Why are we not there giving the Saudi people democracy? Easy, their oil is nearly gone.

This is a gift for whoever shows up from TD Hitchens. TD has gone haywire and fascist, duh!

From the allusions to food that has now become a standard part of comments of the core group of this forum, if you recall it was started from Michael's peace, that turned into peas (hysterical) and there are others who post here who have no clue as to what it is about, but that's all right, I am reminded of Plato's Symposium, also called the Banquet. But this was a banquet where everyone has already dined when Soc shows up. They drink a lot of wine. If you have never read any Plato, I highly recommend this work. In another dialogue, the Protagoras, Socrates compared ideas to food. He also claimed that sophists (who were traveling hunters of rich young lads and pretended to teach wisdom for a hefty salary) are more dangerous to the mind than peddlers of spoiled food are to the body. In this work, Plato also says knowledge is food for the soul. Plato used food as a metaphor in several of his dialogues and thought of philosophy as food for thought as he preferred an eternal and changeless world of ideas to this mundane world. He was definitely a religious man who taught the monism of Socrates in defiance of the pantheistic religion of the Greeks, for which Socrates was condemned to death by poison. His death is recorded in Plato's Phaedo in which he stated that food distracts us from higher things. So here is a case where religion really was poisonous.

Well, Aristotle on the other hand, believed it was only possible to think once one's primary needs had been satisfied: real thinking can only begin with a full stomach. I couldn't agree more.

In counterpoint to Plato's Symposium, is the banquet of Tramalchio in Petronius Arbiter's Satyricon, set in the lavish imperial Rome of 1st century AD. While in Plato's dialogue (and in the Greek practice of the symposium in general) the main dish of the banquet was poetry, lyricism or ravenous philosophical disquisition (or formal discourse), in the dinner episode of the Satyricon, the key moment of the meal is anything but lofty and metaphorical. Petronius' bawdy and sumptuously materialistic dinner party assumes the tone of a parody of the banquet in the Symposium, ideally metaphysical and ferociously refuting the unrestrained luxury and poor taste of Caput mundo (or cleaning the head…mind???).

Having recently been there and enjoyed the wonderful cuisine, I invite you to the following website for a wonderful healthy diet:
http://www.cretetravel.com/Cretan_Diet/Cretan_Diet_1.htm

Spetsiota – a fish dish prepared with a Greek flair with garlic, lemon, olive oil, parsley, and tomatoes.

Shenonymous Meticulous

TD can manipulate the posts, but only god can make a tree. Good to hear from you She!

The article by Mike Warner is a good article, but not a great article. It rightly raises Mark Twain to a lofty philosophical perch and I have quoted him myself. After all he had a sense of humor, mostly missing in the sunday morning groups on tv and the goat herders in the bible.

However, the praise for Christopher Hitchens is lackluster. What Christopher did for enlightenment and atheists was draw attention to the absurdity that is still practiced in religions today. What courage he and Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris have shown, and Bertrand Russel before them. The social attacks and probably personal attacks on their very lives has been documented. If Christopher Hitchens has the frailties of human beings on many issues, so be it. Who cares what a person is like if he is the one who stands up in a burning theater and hollows 'fire'. We don't have to live our lives gleaning wisdom from Hitchen's life. We are entitled to thinking that on this one front, he is right.
As an example, look at who the god(s) have chosen as their front men. It makes me blush. Oral Roberts, Jim Baker, Charles Stanley, Ted Haggard, Billy Graham, and Tammy Faye come to mind. Oh yea, and Jimmy Swaggard, Jim Whittington, and Pat Roberson, and Jerry Falwell. Pick one of these as an intellectual in the same league as Christopher Hitchens. Thank you Bertrand Russel and Rob. And so it goes...

Smoker's and drinker's, seems like Mark Twain had something in common with the Hitchens or should it be the other way around? Why does it seem to me shoving connotations down the throat of readers reminds of religion? Comparing Twain to Hitchens seems trite and off center, must be my disagreement with Mike Warners comparisons. Warner Reminds us that the village idiot died and compare that to Hitchens. It would be hard pressed to select a better comparison of apples and oranges.

Feeling the need to defend Hitchens seems so awkward, Antichrist, does a good job. Yes, the comparisons seem lame.

Hitchens Book calls attention to all religions stories and fables, not just Christianity.

Corn Chips and salsa

Terrific! Hope more of the TD gang shows up, even -Michael, he was always fun to trounce on, but I enjoyed the fray with him anyway. Antichrist sounds an awful lot like Rob even though he thanks Rob. Hmmmmm, cute. I had prepared a second return-to-posting for TD (they don't deserve to be spelled out anymore, da dawgs). So if some of you turn up, most of this is for you.

Backatcha all. If I e-say, do I therefore e-exist? We need a Cartesean to answer this one. For the e-guy, Leefeller: I want you to know that I am a card carrying Unyun member. As one of the founding unadministrators, I can sell unmemberships cheap.

Rob is precious and one of the most refreshing clear thinkers. I appreciate all of his comments. Here is a tidbit from Wikipedia just for you Rob: Bertrand Arthur William Russell, 3rd Earl Russell, OM, FRS, (18 May 1872 – 2 February 1970), [popularly known as Bertrand Russell], was a Welsh philosopher, historian, logician, mathematician, advocate for social reform, and pacifist. It looks like your right-hand ring finger just doesn't want to put that second l in Russell. It's a dead give-away, ha!

Billy – The Grendel character showed up a few years ago in a TV show called Earth II that was so neat about space traveling earthlings who had to find another planet to inhabit because humans ruined the one we have. They run into a Grendel beast (so named too) and these other beings that have a silicon base body structure and they live inside the earth like carrots and turnips. OMG they were the scarest. Did you ever see that show? I was so disappointed when it was cancelled. Way ahead of it's time. But I think it was spawned by the Beowulf legend.

Sorry MMC decided to bail. He's probably tired of the banter. Do keep walking with Jesus Mike, do walk and walk and walk (it's good for your health, especially along the San Diego beaches, but that's all it's good for).

So I heard this guy Martin Marty (a famous historian) on Bill Moyers the other night and he argued (somewhat incoherently actually) that because Mao, Stalin, and Lennon wanted to rid their societies of god and religion, viz., they wanted to create atheist states and had millions of people killed. Marty uses that as a definitive description of atheism. The fact is that atheism was really just a pragmatic tool for Communism because religion interfered with their economic and authoritarian plans. If a people follows a religion, it is difficult to get them to comply with secular plans of having corrupt absolute power that might be in competition with the practiced religion. Easier to kill them. Duh. Uses of atheism have been prostituted just as religion has been (ala our present government). Atheism and religions have to be evaluated for themselves to see their truths or fallacies. And only honest and unpretentious argument does can do that. It would mean never cheating, lying, being objective, and being lawful. I find it hard to believe most religious can be that honest. All atheists are not communists, I for one am definitely not!

I've seen ezyflyer on several other forums and is a splendid mind, always benefit from his comments.

Steamed root vegetables like turnips.

Hello everyone new and everyone pre-acquainted from the Hitchen's post. Hi She and Lee. We could do our thing here, no? (Why am I typing this with a phoney French accident er.... I mean accent?) Il est d'accord avec moi. Que pensez-vous?

She,

I always felt that Christianity and Communism were working the same side of the street. They both, if practiced as intended, taught if all work for the common good, all will benefit. Roughly of course.

Mulligan Stew

Tres bien, Hemi...Il est le plus agréable à moi pour se réunir vers le haut ici. I have seen lots of Catholics lacerating their knees by climbing cement steps on their knees. I think it was intended for their own personal good. But good old MMC certainly fits your description. I think he would be horrified if he thought his beneficence resembled communism in any way. But if communists and christians are working the same side of the street, then they are in competition for whatever advantages are available, no? Ne convenez-vous pas? But wait a minute, Antichrist, god can make a tree??? Nah, gawd doan mak nuttin.
We can't let that slip by....

Crème Brûlée

She,
You know, I don't think that TD was manipulating the posts because that would imply that someone of religious sensitivities was reading our views and editing them. It also would indicate that there were religious zealots who had nothing better to do than keep up with the "loyal opposition." I think they are too busy worrying about stem cells and homosexuals and abortions and the making of graven images to keep up.

I suggested the tree making business for god because he isn't doing so good at anything else in the universe at the present time. And since his illegedimate son was a carpenter/fisher/out of work prophet, I thought it might be something he would take a liking to.

Of course, I kid the big guy. I don't think that he could make a tree. I don't think he could alphabetize a bag of M & M's. he's not much of a military mind either. Every military venture he has recommended has been, well less than stellar. George Bush should blame him for our Iraq fiasco! That's who told him to do it, n'est pas?

We really need some theists to come on board. I enjoy the banter of the delusional. So, until jesus comes again, may your days be filled with humanity and your nights with pleasant dreams. Wouldn't it be nice... well, yes it would.

Touting bloated religious spewers as intelligent is lowering the bar below seal level.

One of the topics we tried to talk about in reference to Hitchens book, was the sexiest abuses of women sponsored by all religions. Mid Drift Mike had a row with Rob and Hemi on that one. I got into a spat with Michael over his use of the word gentlemanly. Quite amusing it was.

Hemi, like the French accent.

She, you missed Chompers, (Douglas Chambers) probably not worth filling you in on his seven dimensions and that he mentioned science has proven the existence of god and reincarnation is. He mentioned something about all the horses that used to be on earth and now gone and something about reincarnation. I mentioned that when Chompers reincarnated, he could come back as the rest of the horse. He was quite the windy one. Now he is all over TD whining about Scheer cutting his posts. Good to see some old names, you to (Antichrist). Do you know a guy named Rob, who read the bible more than once?

The only French I know is fries.

Right, AC, I agree that TD probably isn't "manipulating" its posts, but they certainly are truncating those who post, and some in particular. I seem to be one of the "outies" and other cohorts with whom I've enjoyed exchanging ideas. I've tried several forums even new ones that have few comments posted, and occasionally my comment gets through if it is very short. Others, however, can post very, very long ones. So maybe we should agree on the word manipulate? Someone suggested, Leefeller I think, that TD has limited space on the Internet. Could be. Maybe they don't understand the beast they created??? But over 1200 posts on one subject ought to give a clue on how intriguing the topic is.

Still, with the appellation you have chosen "Antichrist," looks like you are not a complete atheist, as a real atheist wouldn't acknowledge the existence of any entity by anti-ing it, which "Antichrist" actually does. It is a trick of logic. "Ain'tNoGod" might be a closer posting name. Antichrist is somewhat glamorous though.

I'm on this post because I am interested in what people have to say about the whole religious thang. The religious are ratcheting everything up. Movies about gawd, television shows about gawd, not only whole programs, but interviews , MSM commentaries. Where I live, new ministries are going up three to four a year. It is downright scary. Martin Marty, who I referenced in an earlier post and who is a currently publishing historian, said on the Moyers interview that 50-years ago, every 7th person in the world was a Muslim, now every 5th person is and in sub-Saharan Africa—18,000 new Christians every day. So the community of atheists in the world aren't going to make much of a dent. I find it unfortunate that atheists have to become more open and vociferous because the avalanche of new religious hypocrites will in fact choke the world to death with their insanities. I'd like to see more discussion on what the effects of religion and atheism are. What people think about these topics. Mike Mid-City of TD was a wonderful walker-with-Jesus and I had enjoyed the interaction between him, myself, and several others, until recently when he got weird. But he did apologize, which is really mensch of him. But seems he's run out of steam. That's what happens when logic runs out too.

Leefeller, I did read the lunatic Chalmers posts. I've reviewed all that I missed while abroad. It was that same day that TD started garroting the posts. Chalmers doesn't really count as a mind.

Tough toe-nails for breakfast

Random Rants

According to an article from the San Jose Mercury, Atheists may account for 10 percent in the USA and could be higher. So this means the evangelists need to promote their missionary position with vengeance. Lefty another poster on TD, stated that he was not opposed to the Jewish people because they are all over the place when it comes to their religion, and when was the last time you had a jewish person evangelize, maybe in a bible story?
The idea that religions, god and Christ is a given, really is annoying for those with any creative thought. What is it that makes atheists be? We have touched on the ability to think, thought and reason, but their may be several additional words or three.

I was trying to post another posters comments about religion from the Hillary Pushes the Button post on TD and kept getting blocked. This poster named John, was arguing against religion and responding to someone else who was really against religion named Logistician. (may not be spelling it correctly) John's conclusion which I agree with, but how how he obtained that conclusion, I found interesting, but feel incorrect. His arguments were lacking in coherence.
His suggestion's for the problems of religion were pertinent and could be fun to discuss. Somehow I feel cutting and wrapping his post or even placing the whole post here is inappropriate. What say you? On the other-hand it may be undesirable in your minds which could mean we should do it.

Can we swear here? Hope Billy gets his buttocks over to the Hitchen post revisted, glad to see the rest of you though. She, I had problems with TD changing letters and spelling, this is slightly smoother, though the preview edit thing is quite different. Actually using it now.

I know French
Pressed Coffee too!

Hey Leefeller,

Looks like we are back to our discussion, nice!

I'm inclined not to give the Jews a free pass. My opinion, I think there are a couple million practicing Jews and the rest are simply members of a shared genealogy club that retain their membership for the benefits. (I look at this similar to George W. Bush claiming he is a Methodist and Karl Rove claiming he is Episcopalian. They enjoy the votes of the Christians but don't practice the beliefs.) I think the majority of Jews use their religious aura for personal gain. How? They cry anti-Semitism or remember the holocaust any time they are on the losing end of a political decision. I think this includes local as well as international issues. So, Jews of convenience that only darken the temple doorstep to maintain appearances (if that) and keep their memberships active.

What do you do when atheism is not a religion or even a club? There's no drive to "get out there and make more tribe members". There is a real need to "convert" people to reason. The religious are cranking out kids to protect their piece of the pie. When you have your chips on the next life you have less regard for the current one and everyone suffers. I was a Catholic and have two children. We simply could not afford more children. We did consider adopting to try to offset some of our guilt for living a relatively good life but it didn't work out. There are others that can afford more children and keep them coming like Russian dolls.

Borscht

Leefeller – Hemi has a few good points about the Jews. I think the black community and the Hispanics do the same thing with their race cards. So do the Japanese and Chinese. All the "groups" have their intelligensia and most of them make a lot of sense when they join the human race rather than an ethnic or racial or political assemblage. Creativity is anathema to any organized religious, political, or racial group. Look at Bill Cosby, who may have faults, but when he speaks out against the self-servingness of blacks, as a group, they almost castrate him and often denigrate him. Nationalism, fanaticism, or radicalism of any stripe in the name of any reason, is a blight on intellectual and creative thought. Artists are often emasculated for progressive ideas.

God, or the idea of god, is prostituted by and has been throughout history by hypocrites, or those who have given up their own thinking out of sheer laziness, ignorance, or just plain retardedness.

There are those I dearly love, for many reasons, who are religious. But they don't proselytize to me nor hound me to religiousize myself. Yeah, I just made up that word, but it seems to fit. I respect them and don't agree with their idea of religion, but they are tolerant of those that don't and don't' try to tear them down or apart.

What I like about Hitchens, certainly not his politics, is his courage to put forth his views, maybe recklessly so, but his now celebrity status brings those ideas out into the open for the public to consider even in their own closets. The debates are on the table. And a lot are partaking.

I read a lot about all the issues and try to read both sides. But I trust my own logic not doctrine. I think that real free thinking is what makes humans different than any other animal. Having as much data to make informed choices rather than dogma that controls sometimes every aspect of one's life, like even what you can and cannot eat.

I love bacon.

A few years ago, when my children were reaching adulthood, I suggested that the most important thing for them to heed was the threat of religion. It tries to come packaged in a warm, cozy wrap around, similar to a chasity belt. (I really don't know if chasity belts were warm and cozy.) It's intentions are the same as the practice of that belt. Don't have fun unless its with us.

When george bush and cheney were elected twice, I knew that advise was priceless. I do not support conspiracy theories because of my total lack of respect for the very people who might carry out such things. I do however, think that there is an overwhelming group of tinkerers of humanity that will take advantage of the weak minded and sick of conscience. I know that the bushes and cheneys of this world are not 'religious', but have a very developed sense of taking advantage of any moment that will bring them wealth and power. This obsessive behavior follows us right into our bedrooms and into the classrooms of our children.

I cannot concede any criteria that makes these bit players on the stage of life, relevant to a life well lived. I, therefore, foreshadowing a new development in logical proof, will not stand silent as this insane juggernaut called religion moves toward total domination of the human spirit. If One man can stand tall, then there will be hope for us all. And if 20 million atheists exist in America, there is surely a chance that reason will prevail on this pitiful planet.

Thank you Justin Haywood. I don't particularly like food.

Just for fun, I have discovered an album by John R Butler on CD Baby that could be the anthem for believers and non-believers. Track 5 is "The hand of god" and should cheer anyone up for a few moments.

I'm just trying to show god(s) how to lighten up a bit. Pull my finger!

AC, I hope you don't mind my calling you that? I'm sure you don't completely fast, or you would surely starve to death. I am partly Epicurean (the Greek part), though I don't hold all of their beliefs, but I do love good food, for the body as well as the mind (the other part is Italian, so you might understand the penchant for good good food). You provide some pithy thoughts and I will ruminate over them for awhile and get back. But please, lift a libation with Leefeller, Hemi, and me. We are not drunks at all but do love those kinds of spirits rather than the disembodied kind. I think because we aren't sure what a spirit is. I dont' mean to speak for Leefeller or Hemi though.

Dago red, with spring water if you prefer…or, just the spring water.

Ah, no, I do not fast at all. I can appreciate why people like food and spend lots of time fussing over it. I just have a gene that doesn't particularly saver food. I wish I did though. It seems like a great way to pass some time and share our existence with those we love.

The reason I thought I might call myself the antichrist comes from an early experience with a christian. Upon learning that I was an atheist, he first said that I really wasn't an atheist and that he was sure I would end up on my knees at some point in my life. After knowing me for some years however, he began to believe that, because I have a blue eye and a green eye, and rather pointy ears, that I might indeed be an atheist. But that didn't seem quite sufficient for the radical condition I was in.
So, after some prayer, and probably a chat with his personal god, he was told that I must be the antichrist. At first, I was hurt because it sounded like I had determined to kill christ. Then, it struck me that it must be the worst thing a christian can call you. I wore the mantle as a badge of honor. A true story. Such a little story for such a little bang don't you think? Really I just chose it because I knew it would piss off some believer somewhere.
Here's to friends and good wine. Thank you
Bertrand Russel.....l

For your honor,… I loved your story, I henceforth will refer to you as Antichrist. I can tell you are a very likeable chap. And here's to pissing off some christians. You do remind me, and Leefeller I see, of our TD friend, Rob, whom I have a high appreciation for as well.

I wish I had admonished my kids about religion. I wasn't as enlightened enough then I guess. But here's the funny thing: one of the twins is atheist, the other is a Jesus freak. My former husband, while a Presbyterian, was not church-going nor attached to religion that much, and I a former Catholic/Baptist/back to Catholic evolved to atheist around 1970 when I intuited the silliness of all religions and the heavy psycho baggage one had to lug around to "be" religious. I love the 70s. Bong hits for Jesus and everything… Guess I'm really bad. We divorced not because we weren't religious but because of the perennial wandering male penis. His religion did not help him to be a moral man. Or at least one who could try to negotiate for an open marriage (which for me wouldn't have been negotiable anyway). My other kids are not religious but all, except for the Jesus menace, are exceptionally moral, seem well-adjusted, loving, helpful, and are generous to a fault. I find it very interesting. Both twins have academic degrees. Other kids are still in college. I believe education does not determine whether one believes in gawd or make one feel the need for religion. Maybe the infidelity of the father affected the child more than she will admit. It makes for interesting family dynamics at times. I now have a partner but we are not married. The family I care about say they are okay with it. I certainly am. End of my story.

You are insightful about the invasive and crushing number of human vultures in the world. They do take advantage of the weak-minded and sick of conscience, but also those who are provincially ignorant. Not that these latter are stupid, just very uneducated, and vulnerable. While I believe religion does not create moral minds, I do believe that education does. I believe, we, my former TD friends and I, stand with you Antichrist. We are part of those 20 million. We understand it will take great effort and clarity of mind to withstand and affect others. They are exceptionally articulate and speak their minds admirably.

Hmmm…maybe your olfactory nerve needs tweeked??
Smell fresh baked Italian bread then dip it in fresh made garlic and basil spaghetti sauce, it is soooo therapeutic. I'll check out your John R Butler album. I'm a music freak.

Intellectual lazinesses, comes to mind, which has little to do with anything but can become the manipulating part and control of followers of religion. Growing up and being indoctrinated into the fairy tails of our western society's Christianity,(cannot speak to other religions) seems the followers of religion accept blindness as a virtue. Truth by association?

Once I attended a class in Urban Anthropology, seems quite like sociology. We learned about people and their hubs, family's and friends and the differences between societies and peoples in those societies. For some reason I do not remember any comments about religion.

The tribe mentality is still strong in many parts of society, religion must play a big part in that connection. Let's take the Catholic religion, my sister is catholic and weak minded does come to mind no pun in tended. My brother in law comes from a very large family. All this time Hemi, I believed the Catholic Church was drumming up business by promoting the propagation of little Catholics. Really had no idea that it had to do with not being selfish?
The Moslem's seem to have the same idea, but what is their lack of rational?

Common sense has little to do with the need or will to propagate, but it sure would be nice if it did. Religion must fulfill the empty mind with something, even if it has no sibilance of truth, logic or reason. Logic would say Atheists should be in the majority not the minority.

Guess I am on random thought or unthought day. (now that I know we can make up words here). Hitchens has brought reality to the table, now let's feast.

Since Michael is not here and he likes to use the term gentlemanly when wandering around. I posed this question to Michael. Is not the word gentlemanly sexist? (maybe to coax him off that agnostic fence post again.) No, I will not refer to She's comment of the wandering gentlemanliness.

She, I need to focus more when writing, having grave problems keeping up with the experts.

Missionary stew

Peach off the tree

My 21 year old son's band just released their first CD. He's the drumma and mother what a drumma he is. I would love for you guys to hear it, but to reveal myself might lead to my house being burnt down...with me in it.

If society is just warming up to atheists, it is not quite there yet in the bible belt I live in. I still feel the uneasiness of being the only declared atheist in my village. I can imagine what fate would await me in a larger context.

It's like vegetarians experience when they say they don't eat things that have ever had a face. It's not that you are scared to say it, but you'd rather not hear the crap.

I do get to speak publicly sometimes, when the village needs another point of view. It actually is happening more and more. Mostly it envolves the free thinkers mentality that the common folks like to hear. Nothing too antigod or antinational or antipasta. Not too heavy on the hope and determination of non believers. Liberal thoughts amaze my neighbors. I get to write articles in the village newspaper and try to argue a point with humour and grace. It's why my neighbors tolerate me, I suppose.

But the warmest feelings I have received in a long time comes from you guys. I think I'm going to tear up.

And as Steppenwolf first said, "goddamn the pusher." I always interpreted the pusher as the pope. You know the guy - the no child's behind left alone advocate. Thank you She for thinking kindly about me. Maybe I ought to try a little more kindness myself. It feels so good.

But believers be ware, I ask no quarter nor shall I give any. On guard you rascally rabbits.

Gentlemanly is an extension of gentleman that means "well-born man." Leefeller you are as expert as anyone and your thoughts are as appreciated as anyone's elses. Why do you think gentlemanly is a sexist word? I think you are right about mental laziness as to "how" religion does it. Lethargy of the mind is the most dangerous of circumstances. But I think this lassitude is taught. It is taught through the apathy of our parents and teachers and acquaintances. And that primitive work ethic that reinforces provincialism. Humans get too busy to be involved in extra thinking. If Marty the historian is right and 18000 Africans convert to Christianity every day! then that says something about the pre-mind set of those people.

I read Warner's article on Falwell, Hitchens, and Twain and I think he presents quite a point. Seeing through stories seems to be the talent we should all be working for. Religious and non-religious alike. What ought we to do? I guess re-read Twain again and those others who have shown real wisdom.

Bandjineer made very insightful comments. What question is he/she leaving us with? I'd go to hell too, if there is a hell. No, there ain't no hell, ha!

Even though I disagree often with Plato, I read and reread all the dialogues because he presented the world with so much to think about in one word, virtue. What is virtue? Why do not more men and women display this perfectly human conduct of life? These and other questions like them are what we ought to be discussing, not just in academic classes, but right in our own homes and among friends, as we would cultivate a garden. What does it mean to be a virtuous person? And emphasize the word 'does.' When enough people consider these questions and look everywhere for answers, then and only then can we have the excellence in government and in the lives we are so hungry for. I think our references to food is an unconscious suggestion of this hunger. What do you think?

A BLT and chicken noodle soup!

She, and AC(not air conditioner)

Are you sure you do not know Rob the guy that read the Koran 5 times less than Hafez?

If I recall my question was addressed to no one in particular "Is not gentlemanly sexist?" This was the post nothing else. At about the same time I posted the question attempting to discuss the male control of religion, with women being less then second or worse then the male. Rob, Billy and Hemi responded with great info. So when Michale did his "gentlemanly" quote I posed the question, Michael bit the bate and we went for quite a while, Billy and I had loads of fun with Michael's lame defenses, it was very amusing. Subconsciously or otherwise, I believe Michael was being sexist. It was more the timing than the word. You and Billy know he is fun to annoy. He almost takes himself as seriously as no mind Chompers. It was timing more than his using the word, gentlemanly. It may not really be sexist in my mind, nor would I ever use it in conversation.

AC, you should be aware you are not alone in your unbeliefs, I had questions about my unbelief before my fellows at TD provided support just knowing other people out in the world agree is helpful for ones sanity. I suspect the numbers are much higher than what we are being told.

She, isn't Plato Goofy's dog?

Virtue, some of the religious folks would say it is similar to pious, the hypocritical view of virtue. High moral standards means same as integrity, except in religion and politics both or absent. As always, the definer gets to call the score. Your point is well taken, the idea of posing the question why do we not see more virtue in human life is a good one.
Food could be one reference, in my case we have the pleasures of life, art, music and the beauty of the world. Not to harp on this, but we are the lucky ones, if you believe in luck. Other places in the world are living in fear of death everyday, Bush seems to try here though!

More random rants and food for thought

Peach cobbler

Leefeller,

The elephants didn't die, they just went to clean water. Never let me hear you say that you don't know how to write. What elequance and how profound can one man write? Beautiful, my friend.

Naw, it's that planet that was demoted about a year ago and now we have only eight planets plus that thing that hangs rather weirdly out there at the end of the solar system.

Yes, Leefeller, you are correct about that word virtue and how it has also been demoted to piety. Plato rolls over in his grave about it. He did an entire dialogue on piety called Euthyphro. He also uses his writing skill there to discuss religion, the status of morality, and a conception of god. A very adequate description on Wikipeida called Euthyphro's Dilemma explains the dialogue. Don't worry about some of the Greek words that are used just a bit. There is also online a very interesting fellow I accidentally happened across on a research hunt at

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3649782770826976623

Fascinating. Very short videos of this guy discussing not only Plato's ideas, but a lot of other ideas about virtue. Amazing and I'm going to check it out further. I didn't get that he was an atheist though but anyone dealing with the mind in the way it appears this chap does I find awfully interesting. He doesn't really say what he believes or doesn't believe, just explains some rather arcane and ancient ideas in a very rational and compelling way. He must be a teacher some where. I think learning how to think is the first step towards affecting the world. If you recall I teach critical thinking.

I am intrigued by Antichrist's clue on August 22 post at 3:59 and Lee, I think we should be satisfied who he is.

Perhaps Antichrist can give a clue about son's CD. I know it could be difficult and I totally agree about one's anonymity. There are real crazies out there. I don't live in the bible belt but I still feel vulnerable to damage from zealots. That is the horror of this world and utter irony that those who speak religion are so ready to break their religious laws to do harm to others. I think that is what Hitchens talks about except he seems to contradict himself when he supports the Iraq (uh, Bush) war. I am glad you publish and brave your views within your community. MMC asked once what do we atheists do to improve the world. You are right to step with caution.

I agree. I wish we could persuade the likes of Michael, and Chompers of all characters, and MM-C to come over and clamor the atheists, and of course Billy to our new home. And any other brave minds. Maybe if they were here I wouldn't be so lengthy in my scribbles. Do you think CD will do like TD? It is so foreign to the whole idea of providing a forum for free thinking to edit the contributors. I am so flabbergasted at TD. I am actually able to post occasionally, but only very very short inputs (which essentially are invites to this forum) and then not all the time. Mostly my comments are vanquished. Very odd

English muffins and orange marmalade

First of all Antichrist, thanks for your complement, must admit spell cheker helps. Enjoy writing, like painting both are fulfilling and even rewarding for me.

One of my great weaknesses is my inability to focus with delusional blinders on. Talking about reading here. I have not finished the Hitchens book as of yet. When painting I do the same thing, I like to work on several paintings at one time, well I find myself reading Hitchens only when the mood strikes plus several other books at the same time. In the past most of my work required the reading of technical manuals, so I must have programed myself to skip over half or some of the boring material just to get the point. Yes we do seem to ramble here! Anyway thanks AC. The average American reads 4 books a year, I may exceed that anyway.

She I agree with you about AC, be intrigued no more.

Virtue is lacking in our society, if allowing me to become the definer. Like most words, virtue is relative to the individuals, so in reality, everyone is the definer? In that case virtue could never be pigeon holed, helpfully removing the inconvenient truth for those less inclined to accept responsibility for their heinous actions.

Religion and Politics come to mind, remember I am the definer.

If I attend our local (next time if invited to the spiritual gathering) group next month, I will bring virtue to the table. (as a topic), maybe in reality too! In fact I will email the idea out as a suggestion. Is not virtue relative?

You know, I was suspecting that Sheer was gleaning some ideas from our posts. My suspicions were formed by the use of certain words, sort of like the AC, Rob connection. Still does not answer why the missing posts?

"zealots" isn't that like a rash?

Yes, it would be fun to have others here as well. Thanks for your presence, at least those that are here.

Bagles and cream cheese

Dawkins is comparatively less militant than Hitchens. He is leaps and bounds above Hitchens in the credibility department. Having said this, I was disappointed when I read his odious comment about religion in the wake of 9/11.
I don't understand the efficacy in spewing hate and spurring divergence; we should concentrate on a healthy, meaningful coexistence. We can draw parallels with any society with divergent ideals. Iraq, Bosnia, Ireland, etc. We know what doesn't work, yet Hitchens (et al) insists on traveling down this miserable road.

P.S. Hello to my fellow TruthDig comrades - As a memorial, I'll end with my original sign off.

Peace -Michael

Sorry for the off-topic post. It seems that I have confused the chronology of the posts. How embarrassing for me.

Red Velvet Cake - Michael

Look, I'm tired of reading you two muck about with Plato. It comes in a colorful plastic egg and oh, errrrr no, that's aaaah Silly Putty. What I mean is it comes in little yellow cans with the lids that match the color of the Plato. But seriously, it has nice texture if you let it dry out a little but not much taste. Sometimes I form it into a chicken and then try to imagine it tastes just like chicken. I also try to match the wine to the Plato, you know color-coding. But with the green and blue you're on your own. (Just in case you were wondering the Silly Putty is not good to eat at all!) Sometimes I like to roll it out into a long string and then make a Plato pretzel. Dry it on the windowsill, a little salt, a beer and you've got one colorful Oktoberfest! Well I call it "Platoberfest" but I know that probably sounds a little silly to someone who has never had the thrill of wearing Lederhosen made from Plato. You know "Platerhosen"…………...right……... I guess you had to be there.

"There's nothing more pathetic than an aging hipster." – Dr. Evil

Getting back to Lee and gentlemanly, hold on……. I got something blue on my teeth. Gentlemanly and lady-like have those gender specific connotations. To be honest, I try to be gentlemanly in my thoughts and actions but I think polite or thoughtful are better descriptors of what I am trying to be. Why? Am I simply thinking of others or am I trying to be thought well of by others? I'm not sure. Anyways, I don't feel any taboos about the use of those words. I can see why some might consider them offensive but there are such bigger intellectual fish to fry. I guess they're simply ingrained and I don't dissect my speech to that level. Leefeller you really had Michael reeling over his usage. Maybe someone can refresh me on this but I can remember vaguely that saying "you are a gentleman and a scholar" was at one time a put down. Does anyone know about this?

Soft Pretzels (Blue of course!)

Hey Michael,

No need to be embarrassed. We're all over the place. Seems like old times! Glad you're here.

Don't Bogart that cake my friend!

I love fish fries, Hemi…Glad you woke up. I think you might be meaning cornmeal plasto? Or maybe that stuff that forms on the teeth that the hygienist has to scrape, chip, hammer off? Placco? Or maybe the test product, Placebo, which I think tastes like chicken sometimes, other times it tastes like chicken poop smells. Or Placenta that accompanies us interutero? What are well-bred thoughts? Well I am a scholar and actually feel put up about it. Have to put up with a lot of crap that is. I like Blue corn chips better, never liking pretzels.

Hey Michael, so glad you're here too! Beat us [atheists, that is] baby, eight to the bar…now that is really vintage, but my mom used to say it all the time and made us laugh. I agree that Dawkins is heads higher than the rest, Hitchens, Dennett, et al., but I agree, as you would expect, with his comment in the God Delusion about religion and 9/11 and the world at large, really.

Salsa heavy on the cilantro and a cool Corona

I just got through skimming the most recent posts (after overcoming my temporal confusion). I'm touched (not inappropriately) by my fellow TD's attention. It indeed feels like we are something of a Ka-tet. On this note, I found She/AC's comments about pissing off Christians a little disconcerting. I realize that, as a member of group with like-minded individuals, barroom bullshitting is a natural dynamic. I think that we need to be careful of how we're perceived. No one here is against religious people (necessarily), right? I mean, while everyone is concerned (sometimes angered and disgusted) with the ill-effects of religion, we still hold 'do unto others' dear to our hearts regardless of belief.
As I've noted earlier I'm no fan of political correctness. But there if there is a genuine humanist desire to pursue freedom and happiness (for all), I think transmitting the impression of a group of believer-bashers is not the best way to represent our ideals.

She - I've given you plenty of ammunition, so trounce away.

Hemi – excellent comparison of Christianity and communism. But when you offered, "I think the majority of Jews use their religious aura for personal gain", I was mortified. Are you sure you want to stick with the 'majority' of Jews?

Lee – I'm not sexist; my best friend is a woman.

AC – Hi.

Huckleberry Pie - Michael

Michael,

If I recall, Yes, I was funning. Good to hear your hello, may send out an SOS for Billys help, need to keep you in line though! He probably went to the Burning Man.

Actually I know some Jewish folks, one of my best friends is Jewish. Since I do not know the majority of Jews, I suspect Hemi has his points? Hopefully not bigot points.

Gentlemanly still bothers me, seems to be an old back to the 1880's style word and should be banned with the bible from the thinking persons vocabulary. The majority of men stumbling though life, who would describe themselves as in living in a gentlemanly manner are really using the title for personal gain! Had to do it Hemi! Unlike virtue, gentlemanly would only include the male of our species, have never heard the use of gentlewoman?

Making hay today,

Turkey Pen

Hello Michael,

As the Antichrist, I must insist on a delayed 2000 year old debate that is long overdue.
When I contemplate religions, I see mostly ignorance about what they believe. They don't even know and its usually something in the chest and stomach area that tells them what they do know.

I would have no problem playing nice with them except for a few little ticks in their personality. One tick is their belief that because I think the way I do, I am headed for eternal punishment. Eternal!
Two ticks is their belief that morality is only gained from their creator's writings ( Which most of them haven't bothered reading). The rest of us are not moral without their god(s).
Three ticks is that their belief in imaginary people affects everyone's life that is associated with their horror show. A few examples would be their treatment of homosexuals, women, young children, old children, and say every living thing on this earth. Their resistance to science and knowledge and human decency.
Four ticks would be their ability to take our children at an early age and corrupt their little minds with stories that should not be told in any circumstance.
Five ticks are their ability to forego this life for an uncertain life hereafter.

So, if I happen to feel that enough is enough, and don't mind debating this insanity, then I suppose someone's sensitivities will be aroused. I know mine have been for nearly 60 years. I don't think it should be personal, but it has to include the flock or who are we talking to?

Michael,

Your perception of what should be done reminds me a little of the late Stephen Jay Gould (evolutionary biologist). He authored a couple dozen books including The Panda's Thumb, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History and Rocks of Ages: Science and Religion in the Fullness of Life. These and others of his are likely familiar to you. No, I have not read any to completion. I've got a lot to catch up on Leefeller.

In "Rocks of Ages", Gould proposed the idea that science should focus on questions about the way the universe works while religion would deal with ultimate meaning and ethics. He was proposing a truce between the two camps. Gould was a secular Jew and a very engaging personality for a scientist and scholar of his stature. He had sentimentality toward his Jewish heritage. I could relate to that, living between the real world and comfortable myth. No, I don't think he believed in any substantial way, it was more he understood and sympathized with his upbringing. Here is this highly educated, enlightened man and even he is having trouble letting go of the comforts of his inherited faith.

What Gould does not answer is why should religious scholars be trusted with ethics when religion is all over the map on ethics? You can read the preamble to Rocks of Ages on Amazon and it gives you a good feel for Gould and his work.

Michael, thanks for that "majority" input. I would say majority of American Jews. I say that with recent information to substantiate it. On this morning's episode of "The God Squad"(television show, the premise is a Catholic priest and a Rabbi discuss the issues of the day as they relate to faith, these guys were frequent guests on "Imus") the discussion centered around how to get young Jews to formally affiliate with synagogues on Long Island (NY) to keep their faith alive. The Rabbi interjected at one point that many of the synagogues were going bankrupt due to dwindling membership. Yes, one community represented but a significant barometer of American Jews.

Leefeller, my point with the Jewish faith is this. I look at Judaism as the wellspring of Christianity and if the few million remaining Jews are gradually leaving their myths behind, what are the Christians doing without that foundation? Does that make sense?

L'achaim y'all!

Soft Pretzels with Goulden's spicy brown mustard.

She,

Just to be clear I didn't mean frying intellectuals. I think that was known as "the sport of Popes" once upon a time. Where did you get "well-bred thoughts" from? Was that me?

Michael and Leefeller, you have both caught me generalizing and I stand convicted. I don't know the majority of any group so my using that word is dishonest at best. So, hoist on my own petard I am. I did say "My opinion" leading into that post though and that has to mitigate somewhat. I was opining and whether my credentials are fit to opine on the subject is another discussion. This intellectual honesty sucks. What do you want from me?

Chicken, tastes just like Play-Doh!

Oh all right, all right, here's to pissing off some 'believers.' The toast was a shot not at only Christians, you are right, Michael, to take personal offense. But they are included in the realm of believers. Il était inclus. Or invoking Aristotle's efficient cause and my favorite sport: kill all the birds with one stone (OMG, the Audubon will get after this member for that). I try not to be a hypocrite and don't worry about how I am perceived. I address decorum when appropriate such as in the classroom, where teachers are the model. So I do watch my language there out of deference to my students (they are college students!). But here, bullshitting is the rule of law. If you have read my posts you would see that I have religious friends and family, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Taoists. Their religiousity is not why I like them, but cognitively I think they have been hoodwinked, in the words of Dawkins, by tradition, authority, and or revelation. If they ask me, I give them my candid thoughts on the subject. Now none of my friends or family have claimed to have had a revelation of any sort, although secretly they may think they did. They might be in-the-closet epiphanics, like that religious transformation of Valentine Michael Smith in Stranger in a Strange Land, or one who has reached nirvana,… or not…yet. But on the outside they seem rather normal. As you might say, normal is as it is perceived. They must have developed their beliefs from tradition and/or authority. Like Leefeller, I'll leave the bashing to the best of the bashers, BTD. But although quite couth and cultured, I am not a gentlewoman, and rather ordinary born. I am neither for nor against religious people as long as they don't try to force their beliefs on me (ahem, that is, be fanatical missionaries), or even worse, feel the effects of their religiosity on my life.

Anecdote: I have a poster given to me by a wonderful man who happens to be black and who is a talented graphic designer. It says: -Slave, -Nigger, -Negro, -Colored, -Black, -African American…WE'VE COME TOO FAR TO TURN AROUND. It hangs In my house for everyone to see and I have received some interestingly racist comments. I just smile and tell them how fortunate I am to have such a friend. He is a devout Christian and knows I am atheist, but he likes me anyway.

Huckleberry 'Finn' Pie – Wouldn't Joe and Samuel Clemens really love it too?

It's dinner time.

Hemi,

Yes it does sort of make sense, especially since my friends seem to have left the mirth's behind, like, I hope the hole in the sheet thing, and of course the Moile (sorry not able to spell correctly) deal. Hitchens gives a graphic accounting, which I preferred not to have read.

Michael has She defending her comments? Even though I agree with Michael on this, I would never admit it.

Opinions are like, what was it, Mid Drift Mike said? She, some of my best friends are Christians, but I never hold that against them. The Christian part I mean.

Do you guys realize the original Hitchens Post started in early June?

Hope you are staying dry, seems like a lot of flooding on the east coast. It was over a hundred here today, but that is Death Valley for you. No, I do not live in Death Vally! TD is starting to look like it though, has anyone gone back? I find the political stuff so inane and boring. Aristotle, seems a long name for someone who wants to make a point.

Random ranting, does cause scratching ones?

Strawberry and rhubarb cobbler again

Speaking of Stick Shift Mike...

He had to realize he wasn't winning any of us over or back or what have you. I think he was inticed to the "dark side" and just couldn't make the leap. We gave him very sound reasons and likely loyalty to his peeps kept him home. Very hard to give up that comfort zone of faith and real world friends. We were just disembodied voices.

Why would a man so steadfast hang with us? He was intrigued and some of what we were saying was getting through. Reason can be liberating and addictive when first expeienced. He protested too much.

Beer Nuts

Yup, I fell for it, Lee, I'm a chump, but not a chomp! Leefeller, will Harry Stottle do? He was kind of a reporter, journalist actually, in ancient times and made some interesting discoveries, but he was misogynist, so while I can accept a lot of his logic, as a guy, he was full of crap. Also I think Playdo presented a benign model (as opposed to war) on how to find answers to many problems we face today, but they are expressed in such poetic and that metaphoric ancient language that they are too far above the heads of most contemporary folks and need transformed into plainspeak. One does have to digg (sic) as one would in archaeology, a practice I call auto-archaeology. I am not ashamed to tell that I often find many insights reading Playdo, while eating KFC chicken- crispy, sort of like reading Carl Rogers, or what Soc would call the "Know Thyself" business. Or, as this article suggest, like reading Mark Twain for more than entertainment. I think many of our world's ills would disappear if without getting wiggy or cultish more investigated themselves and their beliefs and observations, if they even perceive that they can observe in that way, or if they do, what the significance is of what they see. The whole religious thang happens because brains with so much potential actually shrinks and that part that would be able to see into their own beliefs has withered.

I was struck by the report about the God Squad discussion that the Jews were concerned about the impending bankruptcy of synagogues. Worried about money, eh? Better that they worry about the quality of the psyches of their membership instead. It might reduce that hasty retreat to sanity.

Like what is the Buddhanature of Raisins…?

If Aristotle was a misogynist, his logic may have been flawed, simply said he missed the other half of life. Concept, one could be a genus and flawed beyond normal in other parts of ones lives is not so hard to follow or accept, history seems to have an abundance of people with personal proclivities, seeming on the uncomfortable side. Your synopsis was more interesting than the one I remember from History of Philo. which was quite a long, long, time ago. Right after Aristotle's Death.

Is it possible Aristotle was the inspiration for the Catholic Church? Did the Greeks treat women as less then men? If so this is amusing because the Vikings, who could not see an abstract thought even if they ran into it, were much more accepting of women as equals. Focusing on the sexist thing again! Questioning, the premise of logic and thought would make a better world?

Hemi, Mid Rift Mike, problems came to head, after Rob posted his Antiwomanly quotes from the Bible and your follow up.
To pick and choose from the Bible, must have set him off. Then we went though the whole Philanthropy thing. This was the same time TD started not allowing us to post. My comment to him which never got posted, was that while we all respected him and his respect for his religion, we not have the same respect for his religion as he. This is typical with many things in life. Preferences and interests.

Morning rant

Need some coffee, just good coffee!

Yes, Harry was a dandy who was married and had kids! But he didn't think women had much status, less than his slave/servants. St. Augustine (a biggie in the Catholic church formation) did use Harry's ideas to further his own views of the divine and promoted the view of christian women we have today. Aquinas was much more intellectual but was still grasped by the throat by Christianity. The history of religions, and especially christianity since it has impacted every westerner's life and much of the east as well, is fascinating and to understand how it developed to what it is today is one way to oppose its hellish effects which is a must in my mind. Like so many thinkers today, even my fav, Dawkins, say, it would be unattainable to eradicate religion, the only way is through education and with dogma standing in the way, it is unachievable or if it is to the degree that religion recedes to be just a moral aspect of life, it would be glacially slow (without global warming, that is). The enlightened ones have to keep fighting the tidal waves, which one is happening as we speak with that insane new Creation museum in Cincinnati, or is it Kentucky, it is very difficult to tell from googlemap. Anyway just one visit to the website shows just how scary religion is these days, just as scary as the Taliban and al Quaeda (which is just a terrorist thug group parading as a religious group). Dawkins wrote a letter to his daughter on her 10th birthday that is amazing and anyone interested in how to speak to children about how to think about the "spiritual," might look it up on google. I've printed it out and have hung it in my office on campus!

Maple pancakes, mmmmmm good and Lee's best coffee, and if lucky, fresh mango.

Lee: Re: Gentlemenly.

Words are fallible. They represent different things to different people. To me, the adjective translates as courteous, polite, and good-mannered – it has no gender connotation. This is peculiar since the noun, 'gentlemen', refers to a man. I apologize for this expression existing in my bag o' vocabulary. The original quote was, "philosophy is the art of gentlemanly dispute" - A passage quipped by a philosophy/ethics professor and friend of mine (who happens to be female).

AC: Yes, many believers have a penchant for ticking us off. It is well with in the bounds of acceptable behavior to call them out on this (I find that when challenged, they change their tune a bit). But the majority of believers I've met are much like our friend Mike from Mid City, who have no issue with challenging the mindset of the church and 'cherry picking' lessons from the Bible. I am of the opinion that were there no religion, the same folks that thump Bibles would have some other sort of secular idiosyncrasy that would piss us off. Engaging believers with an open mind and a warm heart sets the stage for effective discourse sans the emotional bullshit that is incurred through coarse language, and personal attacks. These things only serve to hinder the efficacy of communication.

Hemi: I've know of Gould, never read his stuff. While I respect the premise of his opinion, I don't think any individual organization should have sole responsibility for science, ethics, universal meaning, etc. It's naïve to propose that science is going to discover the potential for stem cells, and then call up the Pope for guidance on the way ahead.
Re: Jews
Your original statement was that Jews use their religious aura for personal gain. Concern for the wellbeing of their places of worship and dwindling membership is not evidence of actions for personal gain (necessarily). We're not going to get into another semantics argument, are we:)?

She: I get it. I get you (somewhat). Joe believer who reads your passages does not, and will come to false conclusions. I understand that your not here to pacify believers, I was just throwing it out there.
Your poster lends a point to our beating-a-dead-horse discussion on 'gentlemanly'. I know an older black lady (as far as I know, 'African-American' and 'black' are equally acceptable) who refers to black people as 'colored'. It's a tricky topic, but culture and intent plays a big part in use of vocabulary.
I don't know if your assumption of Mike's thought process is accurate. I don't think that you and Hemi are giving him enough credit.

Matzah ball soup - Michael

Michael, interesting you should note how ambiguous words are. By your thinking you should apologize for the word man too. Which is silly, right? Your friend the philo/ethics prof has a provincial and retarded definition of philosophy. The professors I had were not gentlemanly, nor gentlewomanly about it, but made us suffer through most tortuous thought-provoking exercises that they made us, literally made us use our brains. What an idea! How dare they! The dirty philosophical dawgs.

I don't think you do get what I said. Any Joe-believer who actually would read my "passages," if they have a plump juicy brain, and the ability to think abstractly, and an ability to reason (and I will here express my skepticism that they have these abilities) would not come to false conclusions if they followed any logic. And you are right, I don't give a rat's ass about believers except, as I've said, to the degree that their insane beliefs are detrimental to my life. The poor Americans who call themselves colored were just brainwashed by de ole plantation massas ta call demselves dat. Dey jes be people to me. And there ain't no going back.

Antichrist's 5-tick personality non-fixed algorithm is an intrigue that ought to be printed on business card size and kept in the wallet to pull out at a moments notice when confronted with hard-core believers. Maybe shoved up their you know…noses. We don't take credit cards and MM-C needs some therapy.

No humble pie here.