PowerofLove: A great analysis, that all bloggers could profit from. The freedom of anonymous, or near anonymous blogging, can be a powerful incentive to let loose the wild horses of the id. In my experience people pass through successive stages of blogging maturity. I make no claims to have risen to the higher levels. I'm grateful that CD has the courage to allow people free reign (or is it rein -- I never get that right).

Ipenek,
Missed your reply to mine back on the 24th. The posts have gotten pretty far off topic since then, and I've pretty much lost track.

The point of my post was that Patriotism and Nationalism are important enough that a dieing man will make sure he doesn't leave without clarifying his position.

Yet, if you read the posts in the intervening 2 days, you will see that discussing just about anything other than Patriotism and/or Nationalism is something that appeals greatly to the respondents posting here.

I hope that Souixrose and Ron and their various supporters don't wake up on their deathbeds wishing they had paid more attention to the important things while they still had the time.

These related issues are killing thousands [count the collateral damage] in the Mid-East and Africa, daily. They prevent any organized approach on Global Warming,And increase the peak oil disaster exponentially, yet as far as I can tell, most of this audience is wondering off into the wilderness.

At least Patrick and I argued about things that are both important and interesting.

Kem/Evelyn: Most of us are here because the tube is so awful. I appreciate your attempt at humor but Siouxrose and the others who stink up these posts with superstitious stuff have no spiritual power whatsoever so I am not exactly quaking in my boots. Astrology really is demonic and there are demons among us all the time but they have no power over those who are aware of them.

So many of your 97.665 percenters argued in favor of metaphysics that I would be ashamed to associate with them on some hypothetical winning team. You have no shame in that regard, having been one of the lead abusers. I have noted in many other threads you often arrogate unto yourself a declaration of who wins and who loses. You declare yourself to be the adult or the referee as if you have some claim to authority and righteousness. I hereby anoint you Queen of the commondreams threads, endowed with authority to proclaim winners and losers at your fiat, based on quantity and not quality because that's how you seem to measure things.

If that idiot/moron Siouxrose never posts again, the world will be a better place. One less lunatic on the Internet. The few who agreed with me had thoughtful reasons for such agreement. The members of the herd just called me names. Not a single one of them refuted my position. Most just said my argument was presented in terms that were too harsh. Sorry, but a soft approach would not have made the point.

I could have easily ignored her rantings, but I saw, and I sensed in other ways, a person standing on the edge of a deep pit. I really do have Siouxrose's best interests in mind and there is a method to my madness. She needs to leave the demonic world now. I hope she reads the Three Pillars and I hope she finds a way to escape from the demonic thoughts that have such a grip on her. I was and am her only friend in these threads - no one else has tossed her a lifeline.

I did my best to scream at her as loud as I could, only to draw the abuse of a herd of cattle who were content to chuckle at demonic utterings. I am continuing my scream and I hope she is reading these posts. Read the Three Pillars, Siouxrose you idiot! You don't have to be a moron forever. I am not a Zen master and never claimed to be, but I am asking you to read a book by an enlightened Zen master.

We are not subject to external forces. "What is there outside us? What is there we lack? This earth where we stand is the pure lotus land and this very body, the body of Buddha." (Japanese Zen master Hakuin). Siouxrose, read what Philip Kapleau has written and get back to me. So what if you think I'm a jerk? I got your attention, I hope.

Kem/Evelyn: That's all for now. If a witch scared you, you too need to read the Three Pillars. Unless you are too big a moron to know what is good for you. Sorry, that's as un-harsh as I can get. By the way, witches with big boobs have far less spiritual power than the flat-chested ones. Don't you know anything?

ntrk,

Thanks for the redirect. I very much agree: the Blog of course. was about Patriotism/Nationalism. It always amazes me that so many are still stuck at the - "America, Love it or Leave it" stage. Sheesh! Talk about "Left Behind!!!"

The only thing I would add is that - from my point of view - these attitudes (and the behaviors they generate) are part of an outmoded paradigm - set of assumptions/narratives - that appears to be on its way out. Many scientists are way out in front of this one. Their science is, in a sense, taking them "beyond science," as they have practiced it. They are glimpsing the limitedness of "scientism."An amazing development IMHO.

Will enough people mature into a "new paradigm" (an overused phrase, if ever there was one!)? And will they grow into it before our species does itself in --- or sends itself into a dark age?

Noone has that answer.

Beyond the necessity for good, careful geo-political thinking and action ------ there remains the issue of how much of our wonderful brain we have access to. I would argue, that when rightly understood, the new home/new paradigm is a more spacious and kinder nest for all of us. And, a place from which fresh, humane solutions to highly complex problems can be born.

Evelyn: That is my point. It is just the herd instinct kicking in. You self-righteous posters are so convinced of your innate superiority it is truly noteworthy. I lost? Lost what? Is there some game going on here with winners and losers? If a gang of unlearned idiots gangs up on someone, they win, is that it? I certainly hope to lose that kind of contest. Not a single one of the herd had anything worthwhile to say. I made a valid point, and all the herd could do was heap abuse upon me. If you are so damn dumb you can't see that, you really need to do some introspection.

But Ron dear child, you wrote. (I rest my case.) I never thought of all of that rubbish as a case, You were using legal terminology there, right??

So Ron baby, with a 90% majority, (your figure) Actually I came up with a 97.685% majority, in either case you lost. Sorry! Actually, since you believe us pox infected herd have no sense of humor, that was my intent, to joke about it all. I really would have enjoyed the debate, except it really did detract from the issue at hand.

Aaaaahh Ron, do you believe I actually give a rip? I don't, am replying because I'm bored, nothing else of importance to do at the moment and hardly anyone else will see this silly crap anyway.

One thing, I noticed that on all of the articles I've read today, siouxrose was not there. That should make you happy and maybe she quit because of you. In that case YOU WON. Gimmee five. No, on second thought, just give yourself five.

Know what I think? I think she's is a closet witch, and since you put a pox on all of us 97.665 percenters. siouxrose is gonna get ya. Many years ago, I dated a witch for awhile, she could actually cast spells, I saw it happen! She scared the crap out of me. She was good lookin too and built like M-M. Had to bend over to put her bra on, 38DD's. Oh boy, if I was you Ron I'd beg her to forgive myself. LIke GWB would say, "Yup, yup yup yup yup yup yup" Dang it, I'm breaking out in hives again. Gotta go____ Byyyyyyy Ron, sleep tight, don't let the bed bugs bite.

Thank you for the fun, Kem Patrick

Excellent perspective!

I keep thinking that Orwell would either marvel at the creative capacity of the neo-cons . . . this wicked mix of the military-industrial-congressinoal complex with an ideologically warped, extremist political agenda, with fascism at its core . . . or simply shiver at how far beyond even his imagination they've taken this evil.

Personally I prefer Thomas Paine's philosophy, that we are citizens of the world, and doing good our religion.

Thanks for speaking out.

Brilliant piece, couldn't have said it better myself!

What I often find most disturbing about the current crop of right-wing propaganda to justify our presense in Iraq are the false analogies with World War II. So many conservatives even claim we haven't been nearly "brutal enough" in our illegal conquest and occupation of Iraq, a country that never attacked us. If only we would take the gloves off, we would win, they claim. We are fighting a "politically correct" war, because of the liberals, who do not want us to win. The "real" patriots, who want to "win" have no qualms about using extreme brutality to get their way.

As if that wasn't enough, some older conservatives claim the World War II generation were so much more "superior" and "patriotic" compared to today's liberal pseudo-patriot "wimps". They seem to suggest that the ultimate patriotic act we commited in all of American history was the dropping of nuclear bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. And oh yeah, if we had to fight World War II today, we would quickly lose because of the back-stabbing, wimpy "liberals" who aren't as "patriotic" as the conservatives. So extreme bullying, extreme violence, extreme obedience, and extreme pillaging are the ultimate form of "patriotism" in the minds of many people who call themselves conservatives; so what is it that makes that difference from fascism, and what is it we are fighting for again?

You're dead-on right, Lucinda. It ain't our country any more--and that's just for starters. Our "government" is a gang of heavily armed thugs who are the enemies of its people. Its military is nothing more than an armed criminal gang hired and equipped to carry out the wishes of the criminals in power.

One may love America and its people, but if you do you must despise its government. The flag is a symbol of government, and not of America or the American people.

I have a little trouble understanding how any person of conscience could feel any allegiance to this government, and how any person of sense could imagine that its military exists to defend the "way of life" of the American people.

The military exists for no other reason than to use armed force to further the interests of the elites. At present these interests are largely centered on gaining or maintaining control of resources for the further enrichment of the already obscenely wealthy elites. (Oops! That's not just "at present.")

The people in this country have no freedom, no security, no economic or social justice, and peaceful public demonstrations by the people are opposed with heavily armed force.

I'm wondering where the flag-wavers get the idea that either the government or its military represents their interests--or how they can fail to notice that both are inimical to their interests.

If we devoted half as much energy to peace and education (real not what we have) there would be less need for a military.

This brings up a point.

Eisenhower's Military-Industrial-Complex warning was the result of a lifetime of justified expansion of the military when the country actually needed it (WWI, WWII, etc.) followed by a period of,what they used to call, deescalation and maintenance. Of course that same M.I.C. decided it would be much more profitable to keep the whole thing amped up for war on a constant basis by creating the Cold War. With that travesty in the past, they are really having a hard time keeping it up, so to speak.

We need to fire 2/3's of our military and get the rest to work on helping THIS country. We would have plenty of money for our railroads and mass transit systems as gas creeps towards $5/gallon; and, don't get me started on our education system.

The US military does not in fact defend the USA. The US military does not in fact defend the freedoms and rights of US-American citizens. The US military has not defended the USA for a very long time. It is not the mission of the US military to defend the USA. Legitimate military defence of the USA would mean that the US armed forces patrolled US territorial waters, land borders and airspace, as well as providing a small nuclear deterrent. The US armed forces do not do that - or if they do, the extent to which they do it is trivial as well as being obviously ineffective. The US armed forces are deployed all over the world, but they are not defending their own country and their own people. They are patrolling the borders, airspace and territorial waters of just about every country in the world - EXCEPT the USA itself. When terrorists attacked New York and Washington in September 2001, what good were the 700 US military bases all over the world to the people of the USA? What good were the US Navy battle groups in the Persian Gulf and the Indian Ocean to the people in the World Trade Centre?

Moreover, even during World War II the US military was not defending the USA. The USA - for that matter, the entire American continent - never faced a serious military threat from Germany, Japan or Italy during WWII, and if the military security of the USA were the main concern of US leaders during WWII they would have kept the USA out of the war. The one time the Axis managed to strike hard blows on US targets, those targets were in Hawaii and the Philippines, in the middle of the Pacific Ocean and of the coast of the Asian mainland, nowhere near the American continent. US servicemen did indeed fight for freedom during WWII, but not for the freedom of US-Americans. They fought for the freedom of France, Belgium, Holland, the USSR, Indonesia, China and other countries that had been attacked and occupied by Germany and Japan, as well as the Jews who were being slaughtered en masse by the Nazis, and that might have been a good enough reason to participate in that war, but we should nevertheless not delude ourselves into thinking that it was a war in defence of the USA or the American continent. And lest anyone accuse me, as a Canadian, of being a hypocrite, I hasten to add that my critique applies equally to Canada. Canada, as part of the American continent, never faced a serious military threat during WWII. And moreover, today, Canada needs its armed forces at home to patrol its vast coastline - a coastline that is getting longer all the time because of global warming. We do not need them in Afghanistan or the Persian Gulf. Every time Canadian soldiers or their allies kill people in Afghanistan, extremist factions within our own Muslim population become strengthened and the likelihood of a domestic terrorist attack increases.

Lucinda Marshall's message about the need to rethink patriotism is dead on target (to use an unfortunate metaphor :) ). For too long we have considered the most patriotic thing a person can do is to cross the oceans and kill people on the orders of our leaders. We must put a stop to that perverse conception of patriotism.

http://www.kibush.co.il

Mark Marshall (no relation to Lucinda)
Toronto

The flag wavers really come out once we start bombing someone. This is what you call negative conditioning. See the flag, see something evil happening. You associate one event with the other.[like Pavlovs dog] Then they want to take one more of your rights away with a flag burning ammnedment. Insult to injury.

MAMMON RULES!!!

Schneringer,

I disagree with you when you say we "needed" to expand the U.S military for World War I. That was a wholly European/Middle Eastern conflict we never should have gotten involved in. Moreover, even more so than with our victory in the Spanish-American war, that war marked our imperialist christening. That imperialist hubris infects U.S policy to this day. Our involvement in World War II was justified because we were attacked by Japan, even though our victory gave yet another big boost for American imperialism.

Dear Lucinda,
Thank you for writing this poignant article. I also thank your son for the Orwell quote. Howard Zinn and others have written about "nationalism" and the harm done in the name of "patriotism". How about if every country on Earth with an "armed force" stays within the confines of it's geographical boundries, and plays "good guys,bad guys" in training exercises in the event of an invasion from some other country, which won't come, because we homo sapiens want to live and let live, and refrain from invading our neighbors across the border or half way around the planet. If our elected,or in the case of the coward-in-chief (selected by the Supreme Court) and the other "Congressional " representatives want to initiate an act of military aggresion against our brothers and sisters in another country, we have the obligation as thinking human beings to reprimand them like we do our children when they do something wrong. The military industrial complex knows it is in their best interest to keep the public in fear of the boogieman from abroad. They invent an enemy to keep this immoral routine going. One way to stop "legalized murder", aka "war", is to support the troops who refuse to fight, like it says on my "courage to resist" tee shirt, otherwise perpetual war will continue. "hell no, we won't go" has to be the battle cry of young men and women around the world.

Again, Ms Marshall, thank you for this article.

,

I have found it easier to be FOR peace instead of being AGAINST war and militarism.

People often agree with my desire for peace through legitimate governments, fair markets, and heathy environments, but I find they simply don't want to have a conversation that involves any type of questions or criticism related to what this country and our leaders are doing.

George Orwell was a visionary. We have covered just about every chapter of 1984 except that we don't wear gray jumpsuits. Yet.

I have no problem with patriotism. It is not a crime to support your country. It is the same as supporting your family, you may disagree with them, you may want to kick their ass on occasion, but you support them all the same.

I agree that the U.S. Military should be used closer to home. I see no point in using them for "nation building" or "humanitarian aid" anywhere in the world other than here. Bosnia, Somolia, Liberia, Iraq, ect. are a waste of time and resources.

Think of what would happen if everyone in the USA that opposes Bush and his empire refused to pay taxes.

That would really send a powerful message.

also remember that you have to take care of yourself first before you are any good to others. remember the sick, starving, undereducated within our own borders. set a good example here.

Ms. Marshall speaks for me. The military resonates with the planetary principle Mars. It's all about me-first, ego, might-makes-right, force first, brutality, hierarchy, and linearity. In short MARS is both enemy to mankind AND the circle. The profound geometric symmetry of principles designed within the zodiac circle shows the ways and means to harmony among mankind's tribes. When Mars takes on disproportionate power relative to the whole, all of mankind feels the wound. THAT is currently the paradigm. Ingeniously to the extent monotheism has codified a concept of the Deity that is consistent with Mars, has lent a glaring spiritual disconnect (note the role of religions in fomenting the Middle East war) to the way war is championed in 'god's' name. Centuries ago the church cast the astrologer as heretic for understanding the wisdom of the heavenly circle and what mankind can metaphorically draw from it. Now as the "religious/faith base" foment war, it is time to ASK what GOD they are referring to in their deluded mission to wipe out another nation (several) and its people. ONLY the circle can save us from ourselves. It is heaven's symbol of democracy, a means to peace among tribes, a model wherein apparent irreconcilable differences become neutralized by the positions taken by surrounding "players." DISARM the military, and disarm our minds which particularly in the US has lent this dark force unspeakable power, and a false license to kill. Nature herself burns as a result, as our planet grows increasingly less habitable till mankind--starting with the US that accelerated the growth of this cancer upon the world--gets with a higher program!

peaceistruth; I like your first entry, and may I add a footnote? By 1944, the Japanese government knew there was no way they could beat us and sent envoys to other countries asking them to intervene for an "honorable" surrender. We were bombing Japan and they couldn't stop us, the defense plants in the U.S. were booming, Americans were working, and many figured the"war" pulled us out of the "Depression" of the 1930's. The reason for not one, but two atom bombs, was not to save a million lives in the event we invaded the mainland, but to show our ally, the Soviet Union, who's the "boss"! When the Germans surrendered in May, Stalin told Truman and Churchill he would move some of the troops east and attack Japan on the western side of the island nation. Harry's advisors persuaded him to drop the" big ones" knowing the Imperial Government would surrender and the Soviets need not come to our aid. No dividing up Nippon with the Ruskies as we did in Europe.

scvile; I tend to agree with what you have said. War is "gangsterism on a national level" with the military doing the dirty work for theives in high places. One of my favorite signs at an anti-war rally said " kill one person & it's murder; kill thousands & it's foreign policy".

dlnelson7 ; You are so right! We've got it reversed in this country. Keep em' dumb, and they won't rebel. They'll follow orders.

mark marshall; I have always liked Canadians, and you, my friend, bring out the best of our northern neighbors.

ezflyer; I agree, sadly.

nathan andover; well said, well said. My Mother used to say, "you can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar". Love is much more powerful than hate, but for some, not as profitable.

Genuine patriots, the true servants of their nation, create peace within themselves. The technology to create peace is available. It is easy to learn, easy to use, and it has been proven effective in more than 600 scientific studies.

National borders are as artificial as preservatives in food. Today the world is a field, moreso than ever before, because of modern technology.

Only knowledge from the most ancient technology, the most ancient tradition of knowledge, will be good enough to free mankind from the limits of his own creation.

www.tm.org
www.uspeacegovernment.org

Nazi America!

siouxrose,
I admire the wisdom in all your writings, especially the comment above. Astrology and astronomy were one for thousands of years before the church "fathers" put the squash on them. Look what happened to Giordano Bruno, the mystic. Seven years into the 21st century and look at the plight of this country and the rest of the world.
IGNORANCE IS NOT BLISS, IT IS UNFORGIVABLE!

i have argued that america does not need a military since i was a teenager (back in the 50's)..I have yet to find a person that agrees..nice to see the word disarm in print, i still argue for disband..'n yeah i was in the usaf (64-68), which allowed me to experience first hand that the military is indeed a joke..
ken

One of my country's heroines, Senior Nursing Sister Edith Cavell, put her finger right on it when she said on the night before her execution (for helping wounded British and French soldiers to escape from German occupied Belgium during the First World War) that: "...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone".

Peaceman: I appreciate the compliment. I was fortunate enough to host a live cable TV show in the Florida Keys for 8 years as a means to educate the public on this topic that's had a PR job done to it tantamount to centuries of rightwing hate radio! Please readers understand that the "newspaper" version of astrology is generic, and in NO way points to the mathematical congruencies one must understand to properly read the map of the heavens as a SYMBOLIC document. Our universe speaks in a number of exquisite sign languages and while I have studied many Oracle systems, there is nothing as accurate as astrology in the explanation for human character and destiny. Fate factors into the human mix as does free will. Neither is supreme, for at essence the two forces dance and give rise to unexpected outcomes. In mathematics a similar device is seen in the permutation, and in Darwin's theory, the mutation. I like to say Creation is involved in an everlasting process without beginning or end, and the activities of us mortals here on earth helps to grow Creation. Of course that is when we accord with principles of love, light and creativity. Acts of destruction, hatred and darkness challenge evolution, but there are those that adhere to the darkness and as most in this forum would probably agree, these constitute too many leaders today.

Thank you.

Here's a question for everybody:

Has the US National Security State, which officially came into being in 1947 when Harry "Nukem" Truman signed National Security Directive No.1 - an executive order that never went through any legislative process and is unknown the the vast majority of US citizens - done a single useful thing with our vast military/industrial/espionage/corporate government conglomerate that achieved anything good, or successful at all?

Please enlighten me. There has to be something the NSS can claim as a positive development.

It has been said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I have been using this comparison to describe real patriotism. The root of the word implies being a parent to ones country. A good parent is proud of his/her child when appropriate. But, when a child does wrong headed things it is child abuse to turn away and say he is just being a kid.

Those who ignore the crimes of the Bush or anyother administration are not blind patriots. They are excersizing selective ignorance. "My country right or wrong. When right to keep her right. When wrong to put her right."

Lucinda, that is a succinct summation of the problem. But it is not new. What you are talking about is what America has been for a long time. Just read John Dos Passos novels (1919, The Big Money, The 42nd Parallel) which expose the same sort of US culture 100 years ago. Just look at the Industrial Workers of teh World (the IWW) movement early last century, at what happened to the US WWI veterans who sought better conditions when they came home. Wages for workers in the timber industry in the West/northwest had increased by something like 15% while living costs and profits inthat industry ahd gone up some 150% [or figures as egregious as that] but when the workesr, including many veterans who had fought for their country, tried to get modest pay increases the bosses, with government backing and approval moved in gangs of thugs to smash (I use the word deliberately) even peaceful meetings of these equally patriotic Americans.
Before Roosevelt, whenever anyon tried to improve the lot of ordinary people, teh full weight of government came down on them - troops and all. Macarthur and Eisenhower were part of teh command structure that turned the US Army on WWI veterans who marched on Washington, not for revolution but to draw attention to their poor financial plight, in the early thirties.
What is happening now is nothing new. It is merely the latest development in what America really is.

Methinks we need to stop calling working for the military "service." They do not serve us at all. They have made ordinary Americans unwelcome in many countries around the world. No one "serves" in the military. Soldiers are employed by the Army, Marines by the Marine Corps, and so on. Let's drop this talk of service.

Siouxrose and all of her admirers: You are all idiots. Consider this quote: "there is nothing as accurate as astrology in the explanation for human character and destiny." How can progressives expect to be taken seriously if that kind of extreme ignorance is expressed in these posts? I feel embarrassed to be in the same forum with such mind-boggling stupidity.

Lucinda Marshall's peice reminds me of a "joke," and not a very funny one at that, I received in my e-mail this morning. The "joke's" subject matter was an atheist professor, who is a member of the ACLU and a marine.

The punchline belongs to the marine who says, after flattening the professor with one punch,"God was too busy today protecting America 's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid sh*t and act like an a**hole. So, He sent me."

I can well imagine this type of humor went over big in Germany, c. 1937 or so.

The U.S. military works for oligarchical collectivism.

Over the years the NSS has attracted thousands of devious-secretive-sadistic types into their cabal.Thus the positive-you know where they are. Mutually reinforcing bad behaviors is another matter of course.
So many well versed comments on this thread-too bad almost none of them even lightly touched on in US textbooks.

Patriot: "-a U.S. army anti-aircraft missile with a range of 37 miles and a 200-lb warhead."
Is that particular 'Patriot', -as used by belligerent armies in faraway lands (not their own), actually *patriotic*, ~or just idiotic?

The word Patriot stems from the Greek (patros) for "father".
Patriots are supposed to 'love their fatherland', (-but not their motherland?) and patriotism in itself is no wonderful thing; ~ after all, Nazi supporters 'patriotically' loved their fatherland (Germany) - as ruled by a certain A. Hitler...

I have a notion the this 'patriot' thing is closely associated with the duping of childlike minds by coercive and mendacious 'parental' figures who've wormed their way to the top of the societal / political dung heap.

Anyone who has studied Dr Eric Berne and his T.A. [Transactional Analysis], will know of the P.A.C. (Parent, Adult, Child) relationship, wherein anyone 'pulling rank' as a 'Parent' figure, -tends to cast his / her peers into 'Child' mode.
[for further reading see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_%28book%29]
__________

Government figures, especially the worst of the breed, use this knowledge to their full and selfish advantage, and so manipulate their 'children' (-eg: we the electorate) by first trying to scare us with inflated *bogeyman* threats, and then pretending to be the 'rescuing' parent who will 'guard against all ills', (-even as they are secretly misappropriating various state funds!)

Even as a teacher, the moment I stand up in front of a class of students (including adults), I perceive my students' attitude towards me often coming from their 'child' selves, -even though I go out of my way to create a peer-to-peer relationship!

__________________

We need to mature, and gain psychological independence from our supposed _in loco parentis_ government 'parents', ~ that situation wherein we hand all the power to our 'paternal' leaders.

We need to wrest back our power, and thus be able to make intelligent decisions about our own lives, freed of interference from those often very inappropriate / corrupt leaders.

Horace Walpole said, "The most popular declaration which a candidate could make on the hustings was that he had never been, and never would be, a patriot."
[~Almost a paraphrase of McCarthy there!]

To be a patriot, a tame parrot, -or both? -that is the question! REAL Patriots in the USA could justifiably almost conduct 'Pat-Riots' in the streets! –in the light (-or dark!) of what their malevolent government has done in the name of this tendentious word.
________________

Siouxrose: "Nature herself burns as a result."
Yes indeed, we are not 'loving our Mother' much at that moment!
And: "[let us] ...get with a higher program..." ~Yes please!!

Also: " ...Creation is involved in an everlasting process without beginning or end, and the activities of us mortals here on earth helps to grow Creation. Of course that is when we accord with principles of love, light and creativity. Acts of destruction, hatred and darkness challenge evolution..."
~ I couldn't agree more Sioux!
__________________

I am pleased here to recall a very UN-patriotic fellow countryman's words: Here's the renowned UK poet Roger McGough, and his early poem, written in the Vietnam period:

"Why Patriots are a Bit Nuts in the Head"

"Patriots are a bit nuts in the head
Because they wear
red, white and blue-
tinted spectacles
(red for blood,
white for glory,
and blue...
for a boy)
and are in effervescent danger
of losing their lives

lives are good for you

when you are alive
you can eat and drink a lot
and go out with girls
(sometimes if you are lucky
you can even go to bed with them)

but you can't do this
if you have your belly shot away
and your seeds
spread over some corner of a foreign field
to facilitate
in later years
the growing of oats by some peasant yobbo
when you are posthumous, it is cold and dark
and that is why patriots are a bit nuts in the head."

:)

Ron says: "Siouxrose and all of her admirers: You are all idiots..."

Dear Ron, I am really okay if you wish to call me an idiot, but I can't really consider Siouxrose one.
I am not, (as you phrase it), 'an admirer' as such, -but I do appreciate a lot of her writings as being perceptive, caring and incisive.

But either way Ron, does it actually *help* the cohesion of our movement towards new thinking and change, to go round calling intelligent, caring people (-your fellow workers), "idiots"?

Tell me Ron, -if you would please, have you yourself never acted or spoken idiotically?
I certainly have acted idiotically on MANY occasions! :)

If you have too, why bother to castigate someone else, when you might be contributing something more positive to the discussion?
To disagree with someone's ideas is legitimate, -but to try to dismiss an intelligent person as an 'idiot' is less than helpful?

One of the reasons the world is in such a mess at the moment is that there is such a propensity for division, aggression, hateful words, BLAMING, and lack of unity in our race.

The cure for these ills is not to simply replicate previous errors of aggression and intolerance, but to learn how to be, -and act, and speak DIFFERENTLY from how we did it before.

That means changing *ourselves* ~from being nasty aggressive, intolerant toads, into being understanding, tolerant and lo, ... even *loving* fellow members of the human family! :)

I hope you don't consider my words above TOO 'stupid;' and 'idiotic' Ron?

I am reminded of the saying: "If you always do, as you've always done, nothing will change."

That kinda applies to all of us m'dear...

Singed,

'a very stupid idiot'

:)

The root of the problem for me has always been the utterly, loony preposterous notion that invading impoverished nations that are not threatening me in the least - from Vietnam, to Nicaragua, to El Salvador to Indonesia to Grenada to Panama to Afghanistan to Iraq - are "defending my "freedom"!!!

No, Mr. War-Pig, you are NOT defending my "freedom" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Look, even Japan, Nazi Germany, or even the Soviet Union had neither the interest and/or the means to invade and occupy the North American continent.

And Siouxrose, sorry but astrology is nothing but superstition. The positions of planets tens to hundreds of millions of miles away, and stars hundreds of light year, away do not influence human affairs in the least bit.

" the military defends our freedom and without it, I could not write these words. "

This sentiment has been expressed too many times without anyone looking at it and wondering now WTF is that supposed to mean? When was the last time that the military protected my rights? WWII? Where has the threat to my rights come from now? The Oval Office and the Dick's office. Why isn't the military doing something to protect my rights now? After all, everyone of them swore an oath to protect the Constitution from all enemies both domestic and foreign. At least some of Hitler's generals had enough love for their country to try to blow him to pieces.

Ron:

Wow! Siouxrose is far more articulate than me-perhaps she'll respond to you directly.
My response to you is-does for instance Catholicism make more sense than astrology? To wit-the virgin birth [sex is "dirty" and can be used as part of the oppression of the "flock"-and my absolute favorite-original sin-a baby is born flawed!
Perhaps monotheism is the most logical system for humans-but certainly not in the co-opted forms in modern times.
Whether or not you agree with Siouxrose's beliefs-her posts are beatifully written and provocative.Is that not valuable to you?

Yes, as Maj. Gen. Smedly Butler said: "The only things worth defending with our military are our homes and the Bill of Rights, the rest is just a racket"

Siouxroses writings are flowery new-ageish language intended to short-circuit logic and reason. We should address urgent issues with the humanist values of reason and logic, informed by the human instincts of kindness and compassion, what else do we need to know?

By the way Siouxrose, are you of Lakota descent?

Look, people. Everyone agrees that Siouxrose's heart is in the right place. She is trying to make this a better, more peaceful world. So try to not hurt her feelings.

Having said that, it is true that arguing points of fact from an astrological viewpoint is silly. If we really want to change the world, we need to deal with reality, the ONLY thing that works. And reality will continue to be real no matter how much New Age mysticism we throw at it. Reality not only doesn't care what you THINK, it isn't even aware that you are thinking. All reality cares about is what you DO, so in order to influence reality, we need to understand it, to study it, to poke and prod at it to see what happens. That leaves out mysticism of all kinds including virgin births, transubstantiation and original sin. To continue to argue using baseless "facts" only hurts the position one is taking regardless of how valid the original position was. It allows the opposition to focus on your facts rather than your position and thus appear to have defeated you even when they haven't even addressed your position. So, please, people. Stick to reality or else the knucledraggers will win the argument.

PJD:
"And Siouxrose, sorry but astrology is nothing but superstition. The positions of planets tens to hundreds of millions of miles away, and stars hundreds of light year, away do not influence human affairs in the least bit."
~Yet, to say the least, the moon has a gravitational effect upon the female menses, as well as our Earthly tides?

With all due respect PJD, but it has e'er been the case, -throughout human history - that they who are not apprised of the full picture, are (nonetheless) often wont to utterly dismiss that which they do not (as yet) fully comprehend.

~ As Shakespeare said: "There is more to heaven and earth Horatio than this world dreams of…"

PJD again:
"Siouxroses writings are flowery new-ageish language intended to short-circuit logic and reason. We should address urgent issues with the humanist values of reason and logic, informed by the human instincts of kindness and compassion…"

I would respectfully suggest that there is, -actually, a lot more to life than this persistent (generally male) over-reliance upon, "reason and logic" has to offer.
The Nazis (to quote but one of many) were 'reasoned and logical' in their conclusion that Jewish, homosexual and Romany people were worthless scum, -and thus could (logically and reason-ably) be wiped from the earth?
[etc, etc]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Human history is FULL of very gross mistakes committed by those who had only 'reason and logic' at their helm.
You also say: "...*Informed* by the human instincts of kindness and compassion..." - but could those latter attributes be not better placed BEFORE logic and reason, and let kindness and compassion be *informed* by logic and reason?
~ "Cart before the horse", and all that?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with 'reason and logic', as far as they go, but what was, (-and is still), lacking in that picture, is the addition of WISDOM and LOVE in our age.
Logic and reason are everywhere, - but love and wisdom are woefully in short supply in our age methinks?

If 'reason and logic' are not blent with the warmer attributes, then almost 'anything goes': –murders, death camps, tortures, child rapes, bombing of innocent civilians... all of these can be justified with somebody's 'reason or logic', ~ but not *one* such terrible offence can be justified if a person *first* acts with love and compassion towards their fellow human beings.

~ Might you agree with any of that PJD?
__________________

dkm writes:
"...Having said that, it is true that arguing points of fact from an astrological viewpoint is silly. If we really want to change the world, we need to deal with reality..."

I agree DKM, reality is *essential*, -which means we have to abandon any unrealities conjured up via drugged dreams, as well mass media fictions, and focus on ALL realities, seen and as yet not widely seen.

This topic brings up a disparate variety of philosophical viewpoints concerning 'reality', but who among us is to know (categorically, absolutely, 100%) that sciences such as astrology are completely without foundation?

Sure, the mass media version is garbage, but then, so is the equivalent piffle spouted by many commentators, about so much that is otherwise worthy and of note!
~ Do we ourselves not also suffer from having our very valid ideas rubbished by the deeply-unknowing ones in the media?

In the same way, there is, (-actually, in reality!) a lot of stuff out there, which mainstream 'science' denies utterly, -but which have (actually) a concrete foundation in reality.

There are COUNTLESS examples of this 'denier' phenomenom, (-far too many to mention here!), - everything from the records of the Society of Psychical Research though to alternative medicines et al.
I am not one to readily take on outlandish beliefs, but over the years, -to remain true to empirical, personal evidence, I've had to acknowledge that what I once thought was spurious was often then proved to be real.

Even as a non-believer, I have (in reality!) –(eg)actually healed people with chronic medical conditions from great distances, and I've had (drug free!) experiences of consciously existing outside of, and away from my body... and many, many more so-called 'weird' experiences...

Now current 'reality science' would attempt to dismiss all of those things as anything at all, ~ just as long as they could remain fixed firmly in their dogma, and entrenched [materially-biased] intransigence!

But the future is not just about being stuck eternally, horribly, -in extant materialism, all that old stuff is on the wane.
The future has many wonders which we have yet to see, --which have yet to be revealed, and many in the present world will be utterly astounded if they had a glimpse of these things!
________________

A request to the narrow thinkers (-world wide), and to those who are so quick to demean everything which they do not yet properly or fully understand: "*Please* take note of the pattern of human history ~ wherein SO much that was 'real' (but yet hideously rubbished by the 'status quo' of that age), was then later appraised, and found to be real, and actual, and of great value!

Don't agree?

Then ask Galileo's persecutors what they think of the concepts: "Space Travel, Computers, Antibiotics, the Infernal Combustion engine, Lasers, Television, Mobile Phones, Submarines, MRI scans, the Internet, Radio, or even the humble electronic carving knife!" ~ and all the other plethora of things that, -a few centuries back, would have been a hang-able offence to think or speak of!

Bon voyage m'dears!

:)

Free Leonard Peltier!

June 26, 2001 will mark 36 years since the F.B.I., utilizing agent/operatives and recruited extremist informants,
initiated a fire fight at the Jumping Bull residence on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota that resulted in the death of a
young Oglala man, Mr. Joseph Stuntz, and two federal agents, Mr. Ron Williams and Mr. Jack Coler. They and their loved ones
as well the loved ones of dozens of other Indian people murdered and Leonard Peltier are the principal victims of the reign of
terror conducted by the F.B.I. and other government agencies. Subsequently, this year will also mark the 31st year of
imprisonment for Mr. Leonard Peltier.

http://www.aimovement.org/peltier/index.html

I too enjoyed the article.

Quote from Carl Sagan.

"The world is my country, and science is my religion".

From my perspective, not a bad place to start.

The current crop of 'self proclaimed patriots' would torture our founding fathers until they gave up on their 'socialist ideas'.

I am greatly disturbed that we seem to be moving into an era where one can claim that all kinds of fantastical notions like astrology and miracle cures merely because they assert it.

When someone provides me with a properly designed, peer-reviewed study showing that predictive power of sstrology, I will believe in astrology.