Lessons I am learning from this back and forth:

Respectful Dialogue is (more or less) THE NUMBER 1 PROBLEM of us wacky HU-MUNS on the planet. The challenge is right here in black and white for all of us all to ponder.

The word "is" - without the qualifier "in my opinion/IMHO" - can be a dialogue killer: (SiouxRose IS a Moron. You all ARE SHEEP, Astrology IS pathetic bullshit, etc.) See Robert Anton Wilson's ))) very funny / smart ((( books, such as The New Inquisition or anything from General Semantics, if interested.

IMHO Ron, many people on this site - far from attacking you - have shown extraordinary kindness, patience, and generosity of spirit in trying to open dialogue with you.

(We all know words can do damage). Some individuals, rather than owning their human aggressiveness and letting it go with an apology ..."Sorry.") ---- since we all step on one another's toes at times ----

Some people when called on their "verbal violence", rather than express regret and a bit of remorse - 1) intensify their attacks, 2) experience themselves as being victimized, (as opposed to being a perpetrator), and project their own stuff on to those who would dare hold them accountable (Statements begin with some version of: YOU ARE DEMEANING ME AND I DON'T DESERVE THIS. I ONLY DENIgrate THOSE WHO DO DESERVE IT...AND MY JUDGMENT IS ALL THAT MATTERS. I CAN NOT BE WRONG)

These are world problems. Not just related to this moment and Common Dreams sharings. (For more see Dick Cheney's antics)

Off with her head!

Thanks Queen Evelyn Kem Patrick Smith,
Me attempting humor, of course. Funny how Ron even got your gender wrong. No sign of him now...alls quiet...somehow I think he'll scurry back tomorrow.

Peace. Best Wishes, Aloha, Long Live the Queen.

YOUR HIGHNESS!!! You could lose your head! Seriously ipenek, you express yourself so well, and dispalay a high degree of common sense and honesty. Good wishes to you. Also, You are forgiven and pardoned. My last official act as your loving Queen.

Sorry if this shows up twice (update problem)...

I certainly hope you're wrong, Your Highness. If Ron is actually mentally ill I would immediately have an incredible guilt attack.

Ron, I have merely been giving you a taste of your own medicine. It's no fun being called names, huh? It may take you by total surprise to learn that I actually agree with much of what you've said, or tried to say, if you wade through the bile. It's your TACT and technique that I have great argument with. If you "congregation" or whatever it's called essentially agree with you I would advise seeking different company. Telling well-meaning people tactlessly that they're idiots or morons is NOT COOL. It never has been. I'm not sure what part of that you misunderstand. There is nothing you can tell people that can't be done in a civil tone and with manners. That is MY "last word". Peace.

PS As for rude progressives. Sure, there are rude people everywhere. I doubt there is a greater preponderance here than anywhere else.

I'm back.

Ron, since you have anointed me the Queen of Common Dreams, I will invoke my lofty powers and speak and write here, for not only myself but for siouxrose. That will get you off the hook you have hung yourself on Ron, and allow you to continue this rather humerous debate. That decision of course, will most certainly be your call.

First Ron, (since none of us actually knows whom we are conversing with,) I will continue to use your alias. First Ron, have you ever sought treatment in a mental health facility? That is not a question designed to hurt your feelings or to imply that you do not exhibit a high degree of intelligence. You do. I ask because I feel very sorry for you, as it is quite clear that you are psycotic and you need professional help. (soon)

You know the truth Ron, you realize that you have a serious mental problem and quite naturally it must surely frighten you. All people who are insane know it. You are attempting to hide your malady and you cannot hide it as long as you continue to shout it out for all to see. It is nothing to be ashamed of Ron, it's a disease and it is not your fault; you're sick and you need to speak with the appropriate doctors who may be able to help you before you go completely off of the deep end. Don't wait ___ please!

I've read every one of your comments, which are stored in the archives. Many are very argumenative, arguments you initiated, where you continually blast others who have a different opinion than yours, using words like idiot, stupid, moron etc. Do yourself a favor Ron and seek help, you are wasting a very good mind. We only get one brain and you should really take this advice from your queen as constructive advice and not as an attack upon you as an individual, a human being, who is suffering from a horrible disease which is often curable. (Wish you'd made me the king Ron, I'm really an un-gay male.)

Finally, I Queen Evelyn, hearby announce, by the anointed powers heaped upon me, that I hearby declare, that I am no longer the queen of anything and that no earthly being may ever proclaim me with any powers over anything ever again. If any attempt is ever made to do so, from now thru perpituity, off with their head.

Signed an so ordered___ Queen Evelyn Kem Patrick Smith.

Ipenek:
My fellow practitioners read all of these posts. They agree that I use words that are too harsh, but that's where they stop. They don't dismiss me as a human being. They understand that insult-generators like you who sit judgementally on the sidelines with nothing of substance to add are a greater problem than those of us who use harsh words while making a point. There is a difference between tossing out words like moron and idiot to make an impact and tossing out words like "asses who only destroy the discussion." I have been the target of a lot of filthy mouth abuse, but I am not intimidated by people like you who think a moderator should have censured me. You progressives all think alike and you really can't cope with viewpoints from outside of your well-worn path. You can't even oppose other's viewpoints without declaring such opposition to be a waste of words. Your crass dismissal of me speaks volumes. I never dismiss anyone. Why don't you try walking the walk, Ipenik? It's hard for me to learn from you when you have nothing constructive to say. Your condescending attitude is revolting, but I have learned from perusing this website that many so-called progressives are inherently revolting people, full of self-assurance, incapable of dealing with dissent, superior in attitude, quick to taunt and insult, and otherwise less-than-inspiring. So hold me in contempt and don't waste any more words on me. I would be ashamed if people like you were my friends. (Yes, I have been learning the art of insult from my fellow posters). In your next post, you or some other superior person should really let me have it. Go ahead and waste some more words, filling the air with loving kindness as you did in your previous post. As a destroyer of discussions, I deserve your righteous wrath. Bring it on. (Frankly, if you respond to that challenge, you really do need to get a life). Go ahead, all of you members of the herd, let me have it. I promise that I will not respond, thereby giving my superiors the last word. I can't wait to read your words of wisdom. And I really, really promise not to respond. Unless I hear from Siouxrose, the only person I care to hear from.

I'm rejoining the conversation to respond to xntrk. As far as Ron is concerned, IMHO he's why moderators were invented: noxious distracting asses who only destroy the discussion. Ron, if you're so sure your responses are furthering enlightenment, how about reading them to your fellow practitioners? I'm totally serious, if you'll agree to read the transcript of this discussion to a group of Zen acolytes and tell me that you have, I'll acquiesce. Why would you not agree? Only if you know that you're just being an ass. Walk the walk, Ron.

"Tact": the unspoken part of what you're thinking.

BTW: if this is the result of you not finding anything on the tube I hereby give you permission to watch American Idol.

See, I've already wasted 50 words on Ron.

xntrk,
As you said,
"It takes a lot more then rational arguments and a good presentation to win the hearts and minds of those who drank Patriotism and Nationalism with their mother's milk."

THAT could almost be written as an axiom somewhere in stone, maybe in the counter-culture hall of fame. The same kind of thing can be said of religious belief. The truth/falsity of these beliefs is really beyond the point. The fact is that many people hold credulity through life and (at times secretly) never give it up. And, I would say, never really analyze them, even though they go through the motions.

Wow, I do now! I have at last figured your deepest meanings and I do appreciate it. Thank you for showing us your true inner self with such vigor, candor and enthusiasm. I applaud you Ron and have reversed ny prior decision. I have the power to do that. You won!!

Hey Ron, you said it! 90% is a majority; you lost. Ron, it was not just "simply" calling a moron a moron. Nope, you far exceeded the simple stage. Ever go back and read what you wrote. You can't make lame excuses now, it's too late, it's like saying something, words and writing are forever. We have to apologize for mistakes, not offer unbelieveable excuses and then put a silly pox on those we have offended.

Dang, I'm starting to itch.

I rest my case.

A challenge to anyone who has expressed distain re- Siouxrose's ideas:

Are you so arrogant that you cannot imagine that science (as we know it) may well be supplanted by a more advanced method of knowing? Well, that process is already underway.

That's just ignorant, and the last thing our country needs is for progressives to indulge themselves in the same kind of rigid closed-mindedness and denigrationa we see in many right-wingers.

Plus, this is a section dedicated to dialogue; there's no place here for ridicule or dismissal of others. Whether or not you feel unhappy, sneering vitriol is not the way to go.

Ron - "Those who live by the sword die by the sword." Surely, you have a huge blind spot. You wrote:

"By calling an idiot an idiot...those of us who use harsh words to denounce sanctimonious idiocy...ganging up on a guy who simply called a moron a moron."

You've got to be kidding. Remember a certain carpenter turned Rabbi, suggesting that before you ask others to remove the mote in their eye, that you first remove the beam sticking in your own? In AA lingo, when you point your index finger at someone else, notice that there are three fingers still pointing back at you.

As they used to say on a Sat Night Live parody on therapy: "You got to look at yourself."

In my opinion both the content and attitude of your posting are wildly off base.

P.S. Isn't it so that, throughout history. the radically new idea (in this case actually a synthesis of ancient and post-modern) is Almost Always seen as foolish nonsense — before it becomes obvious that it actually is a more advanced way of understanding things.

Astrology is a science of Wholes. While it is not at all designed to exclude logic, it also utilizes intuitive and mythopoetic ways of understanding life and the Cosmos. (for more on this see my post just above).

Until you have studied this discipline with an attitude of openness to new ideas, and a kind of sincerity of intent, you have absolutely no grounds to assert (in a "holier than thou" tone) that you are "right" about this matter.

I am such a jerk. You progressive types are humourless and you take yourselves far too seriously. I merely argued that idiotic ramblings were idiotic and for that you guys exhibited the herd instinct and piled on me with ridicule, calling me a charlatan, a non-practitioner of Zen, a Zen guy who talks too much, "pompous and blasphemous," and other such delightful expressions. Good grief. I even get blamed for causing people to stop visiting this website or causing people not to read the article carefully. By calling an idiot an idiot, I brought down on myself the condemnation of 90% of the people who bother to read this stuff. If you people can't cope with a guy who calls an idiot an idiot, what can you cope with? Surely you are not trying to censure me? If the readers of this website are so pathetic that they can't cope with those of us who use harsh words to denounce sanctimonious idiocy, then nothing has been lost if all of this just goes away...What have I learned from this experience? That progressives are even meaner than the conservatives say they are. A pox on the conservatives for being war-mongers, and a pox on the progressives for ganging up on a guy who simply called a moron a moron. You have somewhat less-than-gallantly protected your own.

Rabblerowzer, Good read, I agree.

Yes Samski, "some" of the blogs siouxrose writes are way over my head and when they are, I scroll down and ignore them. No one forces me or Ron or anyone else to read any comments. If someone wishes to debate an issue with anther in a firm yet friendly manner is one thing, but Ron is asserting that siouxrose was harmng the purpose of this website and blasts her and any who agree with her with numerous insults. Then he clai;mshis insults should not be taken seriously, he does nt know hoow hurtfulwords may be, that is an attitude of a classic jerk suffering from Cheney Syndrome. Ron then states we are not a team and that he enjoys sounding off against those he disagrees with, stating that the writings of siouxrose are a distraction for all of us.
Who is this godly Ron who writes that assumption, to speak for all of us?

Then a seemingly very intelligent indivudial,(Jeff Morhring) writes that he is disgusted with what he is reading here and we may have lost a good source of pertenant information, because Ron starts a stupid and childish fight because he doesn't like what siouxrose writes.

I don't believe writing in defence of Ron is appropriate, if he wishes to preach his disgust on the subject of astrology, he should write a book and attempt to sell it, instead of detracting from a published article of interst for the everyone. Ron claims he is a writer of quality. Meanwhile, the pertenant subjet matter of this fine article nay have been lost by many, due to Ron's dislike of astrology. Wow!

In defence of Ron....

Gotta admit, as charming and as well meaning as Siouxrose is, usually I am unable to get past the first couple of sentences of her posts. The dense, impenetrable astrological waffle that follows her usually cogent opinions makes me wonder why she can't save her quasi-religious beliefs for appropriate forums.

Cheney and Bush have been pretty upfront and in our face about seizing greater and greater powers for themselves, but you have to wonder, considering their demonstrated obsession for secrecy from the get-go, whether they have prepared secret directives they can use to shield them from justice, and prison. Of course, all the powers that be will fight to the last plutocrat, to defend their "way of life."

Bush's Rightwing Cabal has been extremely proficient at covering their ass in the past, so expect some surprises. Like: "Say hello to my little friend."

Are you confident that you understand where Cheney and Bush's powers end, and where your rights begin? Using all the power at their command, the Monopoly Media, the courts, the congress, every agency of state and federal government, police, the military and now National Guard, they have consolidated and exponentially increased their power beyond anything we have ever known in the past.

We're not talking David and Goliath this time, we're more in an Ahab versus the Sun situation. Ahab declared he would strike the Sun if it offended him. Do you agree with that sentiment?

.

Patriotism is a thought-form that humanity needs to rapidly outgrow. I'm sure it served many purposes (perhaps not all negative) in earlier centuries.

An alternative is to see ourselves (and actually experience this) as parts of a Whole. The whole is our planet, and shifting to the next level, the whole is humanity itself.

Given our history as a species, we may well need to experience a number of agonizing holocausts, before massive numbers of humans realize that "dysfunctional patriotism" is, at this point in our evolution, more like a dangerous poison.

Re- the very interesting discussion of astrology, humanity is in fact moving into one or more entirely new paradigms. By that I mean a shift in our most basic assumptions about "reality" and the best way to investigate/understand it. Many at the leading edge of science already grasp this. Just read Thomas Kuhn on "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions."

The practice of astrology, which can be as distorted as much current-day science, belongs to the emerging paradigm (which very often combines cutting edge science with ancient knowledge). A challenge to anyone who has expressed distain/dismissal re- Siouxrose's ideas: I invite you to imagine that you live centuries ago, and fully believe (as does your entire society) that the earth is flat and that the sun revolves around our planet. Science, a reliable, verifiable method of determining "reality" is just beginning to emerge.

No doubt, the early scientists are laughed at, shunned, punished and sometimes killed. For, in your day any "sane, responsible person" can readily see that the quacks' (ie scientists') ideas are both follish and dangerous. So, like the great majority of your fellow citizens, would you keep clinging to the old ways, the "traditional" ideas?

Back to the present...Are you so arrogant that you cannot imagine that science (as we know it) may well be supplanted by a more advanced method of knowing? Such a method would both Include And Transcend - our current assumptions. This in fact is a process already well underway. Isn't it so that, throughout history the radically new is Almost Always seen as foolish nonsense --- before it becomes obvious that it actually is a more advanced way of understanding things.

Without rejecting science and logic, "new ways of looking" are already helping us to become aware of some of the problematic assumptions in science as it is currently practiced. An example: the breaking down of phenomena into "parts" that then can be analyzed.

Astrology is a science of Wholes. Until you have studied this discipline with an attitude of openness to new ideas, and a kind of sincerity of intent, you have absolutely no grounds to assert (in a "holier than thou" tone) that you are "right" about this matter.

That's just ignorant, and the last thing our country needs - is for people hoping to change the system in a progressive direction - to indulge themselves in the same kind of rigid closed-mindedness we see in many right-wingers.

Evelyn Smith:

That's one of the best (and signigicant) news that I have heard for some time. Perhaps the Iran war will not happen.

Aymon

Am back. There was some decent news on CMBC tonight, The Anderson Cooper program. Looks like there may be some rays of light, Senator Luger is slipping away from the Bush Administration on his Iraq issues, and the Cheney, "I'm not part of the Exec branch" story is gaining steam. May be the beginning of the end. MAYBE, we'll see.

The very intelligent American investigative reporter, Greg Palast, aptly describes the Bush regime as an "Armed Madhouse." I couldn't have described these psychopatholigical, anti-American, corporate/fascists any better. These criminals have somehow mangaged, through a brilliant propaganda campaign, to convince ill-informed, apathetic Americans that every principle upon which this country was founded is now UN-American. The supporters of the neo-con(artist)s better awaken from their historical amnesia, gain a factual (non-revisionist) historical perspective, and start to understand that the US is not exceptional nor virtuous and that the Bush regime's sole objective in deceiving and manipulating the masses through false patriotism (nativism and hatred of others)is not to save humanity or bring "democracy" to the world, but one of domination, power, and greed.

ME TOO IPENEK. AM GOING TO THE ARTICLE ABOUT THE AUDABON'S WARNINGS OF BIRD LOSSES. THERE ARE SO MANY MATTTERS OF IMPORTANCE, PERHAPS I CAN LEARN SOMETHING USEFUL. HAVE ON THIS SITE, FROM SOME. DON'T GO AWAY SIOUXROSE. I DON'T CARE IF YOU BELIEVE IN ASTROLOGY, YOU HAVE HELPED ME LEARN THINGS I NEVER KNEW OR THOUGHT OF ON MANY IMPORTANT ISSUES.

Ron said:

"There I go again! I use insults lightly and they are taken as being heavy only by those who take themselves too seriously."

I suppose after you hit someone with a mallet you'd excuse yourself with equal ease. The one who seems most offended by insult here is...YOU, Ron. If you're a Zen practitioner then I'm Captain Kirk.

I see that Sioux Rose herself had the wit to bow out of this juvenile discussion long ago. I think I'll follow her example.

There is patriotism, the love of one's country and its people.
Then there is jingoistic patriotism which is manipulated to feed wars and squash political and social minorities who don't follow the party line.
It's like religion.... there is real religion, and fake religion. When we can't tell the difference, the world is a mess.
Like Shakker said, the unelected troglodytes in the current Junta rattle their sabers and doublespeak for the very opposite of what our country was founded upon.... equality of opportunity (racial equality was nearly instituted in the Constitution but was kept out by influential southern plantation owners), protection against oligarchs, and specifically freedom from an exclusive state religion imposed by the government. The unelected Bush Junta has done much to un-do and reverse all of those.... so are they and their sheep Patriots??? I doubt Washington or Franklin or Jefferson would think so, and even though we find it hackneyed now, they probably would find it amusing to refer to the Bushes as 'King George'. And as for 'stargazers', Benjamin Franklin was one.... I guess he's supposed to be unpatriotic now, too.
A true patriot cares about wellbeing of the people of his/her nation and that would preclude supporting politico-economic policies that permit the primal aggressive materialists to hoard and waste money while children go without health care and adequate education, and to idly sit by as supposedly 'christian' Mammonists ravage the national infrastructure like pirates on a rampage.... and then profit from wars fought using other people's children.
Both Theodore and Franklin Roosevelt, and John Kennedy were patriots of the first order. Why are their values and ideals not currently espoused as being patriotic? The answer is Media Control and Censorship by the privileged troglodytes (some of whom despise the idea of Evolution), and badgering and harassment by little Rush Limbaughts for hire and other assorted sycophantic cheerleaders and Storm Troopers for the unelected Oligarchy that is using our national resources to destroy the entire planet, and apparently having fun doing it, like sadistic cocaine addicts. Are they? 'Patriots' they are not, but they and their friends are reaping billions and billions of tax dollars from the military contracts that fuel their staged wars. 'Sometimes War Trumps Peace' said Bush, especially when there's big money to be made.... their definition of 'patriotic'.

Enough of this narcissistic, bourgeois, new age, navel-gazing. The self is not important, solidarity and brotherhood are.

Also, if we are going to buy into this postmodernist "everyone has their own reality" nonsense, we are lost.

Ron, while I don't practice, I do admire Zen - I read everything Alan Watts wrote. but it seems you are "talking" too much for a Zen practitioner. Also, please don't associate the ancient discipline of Zen, and the Mahayana Buddhism it came from, in any way with "new age" which is, I'm sure you will agree, is a sophomoric product of the bourgeois California leisure class with too much time on their hands.

Hey there Ron, how-ya doin? Thank you for the "dear child" comment, but I'm 71 years old now and learned how to join in shit fights during my 23 year military career. I do not recall mentioning your name in my blog, but suggest if you feel insulted in some way, "if the foo shits wear it"!! Oops, sometimes I talk backwards when I get going too fast on this keyboard.

I stand by my opinions, that we should respect the opinions of others as long as they are civil and at least half way pleasent. I also thought we were mostly all attempting to help each other find solutions for the mess in DC, sort of like a team, but I won't join in a game of symatics with word usage with you. Spread your message Ron, everyone must be delighted to know you do not believe in astrology and all that other garbage. I'm impressed. Thank You again, Kem Patrick

Evelyn: Zafu is short for zabuton. Za is Japanese for sit and futon means cushion. Zafuton sounds funny to Japanese so they make a phonetic change and call it a zabuton when saying the full word but it is commonly shortened to zafu. A zafu isn't sharp but you will be pleased to know that they start hurting really bad after sitting on them all day.

I don't have a closed mind and I am happy for Siouxrose to express her opinions as long as she doesn't invoke Mars and insist that she is on a higher plane than the rest of us. She said her idiotic beliefs were OVER YOUR (MY) HEAD. What a moron! (There I go again! I use insults lightly and they are taken as being heavy only by those who take themselves too seriously). We posters are not on a team, Evelyn - this is a no holds barred forum where those who take themselves and their opinions too seriously might run into some opposition. I enjoy crossing swords with nitwits! And re-read my posts - they are professionally crafted, thank you. (I write and prosecute patent applications for a living, so I have some experience in writing; but I have little experience in dealing with nincompoops!). I don't mind it a bit when people accuse me of being a fake or a charlatan - I have never pretended to be anyone who is special in any way. I only mentioned my Zen background to counter those who assumed that I am ignorant of new-age/astrology and all that stuff. I am intimately familiar with that demonic trash and that is why I hit it as hard as I can every chance that I get! Bless your heart for wishing me pain and telling me to shut the blank up. With a little more effort, you, too, could learn how to get a hot-headed discussion going! Study at my feet, dear child, and you will go far. You have shown great potential.

IPENEK: What is a zafu, hope it's sharp. It's a shame we cannot all play on the same team isn't it? That is especially true when the game is of real importance, not just for us,but for our kids and all of humanity.

Some start a pissing contest and then hide behind their closed mind and let it flow, over and over. I do not know spit about astrology or Zen or a lot of other things I am ignorant of, doesn't interest me. I don't berate those that do know and or believe, and if they're on the team, let them express their opinions. If we don't agree, state so in a sane, professional and friendly manner and offer sound advice on alternatives or shut the f--k up. Some here should get a screwdriver and go use it on their head, or some other appropriate area of the body.

Ipenek - of course I know that people don't like to be called idiots, morons, etc. But when someone starts spouting off that we are all under the control of the stars, it's time to speak the truth. A mind that is into astrology is the mind of an idiot. If that hurts someone's feelings, bless their heart. They are taking themselves too seriously. I don't mind the venom that has been spat at me by people like you who think they know me. There's nothing here to hurt, and Siouxrose isn't there either. It's all just thoughts and there is no thinker behind those thoughts. If I'm a fake and a charlatan, at least I'm way ahead of you. Please pardon my humor, I can't help it.

Quote: "...May the flat-earthers/astrologists/witches/warlocks/metaphysicians dump their garbage elsewhere..."

Metaphysical. (def):

1. Pertaining to or of the nature of metaphysics.
2. Philosophy.
a). concerned with abstract thought or subjects, as existence, causality, or truth.
b). concerned with first principles and ultimate grounds, as being, time, or substance.
3. Highly abstract, subtle, or abstruse.
4. Designating or pertaining to the poetry of an early group of 17th-century English poets, notably John Donne, whose characteristic style is highly intellectual and philosophical and features intensive use of ingenious conceits and turns of wit."

(Etymology)-

Metaphysics:
"A branch of speculation which deals with the first causes of things," from M.L. metaphysica, neut. pl. of Medieval Gk. (ta) metaphysika, from Gk. ta meta ta physika "the (works) after the Physics."

xx

Ron,
If you're following the Zen Path let me buy you a Magellan GPS with real-time update. I think you need it.
In fact I'm quite sure you're a charlatan. Nobody with a serious interest in Zen would make a delibrate effort to hurt another's feelings. (Reread your first post, your many uses of "idiot" and "moron", etc.) You're a fake. If you're a student of Zen, then you must have skipped the standards exam. No Ron left behind? Oh, go sit on a zafu.

I've often wondered at the government-hating rightwingers' notions of America. I know people who don't vote because they hate all politicians and believe it's all corrupt. Some of them don't like big businesses. These are Republicans! I wouldn't have believed it if they had not told me all this themselves.

However, they also believe in "America first." One of them said that the only people to have died for humanity are Jesus and the American soldier. They believe we are doing good in Iraq. They listen to Fox news and talk radio.

None of this makes any sense at all. Rationality is not the forte of the rightwing mind. But I've come to the conclusion that for them, America (like Christianity about which they are equally irrational) is greater than the sum of its parts. It's the idea of American freedom and democracy that enthralls them, and not its practice.

Great article.

Siouxrose is a friend of mine. As far as I can tell she is intelligent and kind. You could learn a lot from her Ron.

Un c-d:
Alan Watts was not a practitioner of Zen - he was merely a good talker. He never walked the walk. D.T. Suzuki of course is a much better advocate for the Zen way - I am no Zen master. But my purpose has never been to advocate Zen for others to follow. Zen is not a prosletyzing (sp?) religion. I have never heard of Mr. Leggett. If I have come across as angry, so be it. I choose my words carefully for impact and I have a peaceful heart even when I try to rip stupidity to shreds. No one needs to condescendingly wish me well. I left behind praise and blame long ago but I feel sorry for those who are clueless. Vehemence? What vehemence? It's vehemence to call a spade a spade? And when did I accuse anyone of bombing, etc? I merely denounced foolishness, that's all. And I wish I could denounce it more forcefully. Injecting astrology into these discussions turns them into trash. May the flat-earthers/astrologists/witches/warlocks/metaphysicians dump their garbage elsewhere.

I like this quotation from the conclusion of the article:

"it is time to pledge to end the wanton destruction of the planet . . ."

What good is a great nation amid a collapsed, destroyed world?

Mark Twain once said that patriotism means supporting the nation all the time and the government when it deserved it. The way our government can deserve our support is for it to commit to the UN's Millenium Goals and end, what the author calls the "wanton destruction of the planet."

Dear Ron:
Oh dear, I don't envy you at all, -why all this vehemence towards us good Sir? Are we really *so* very despicable, -just because we happen to hold views dissimilar to your own? Who did we murder, bomb, torture or rape, pray tell?

I do hope you can find peace in yourself, somehow, someway, one day Mr Ron.
I might also (very politely) add that yours is not *actually* the very best advert for the 'Zen Way' that I have ever come across, (-Alan Watts, Daisetz Teitaro Suzuki and Trevor Leggett actually appeal a lot more).

Until then, I ought leave you to find a greater measure of light, love and compassion (and depth of tolerance) than that which at present appears to be the case.

Be well brother,
xx

Dear ldavin:
-love you dearly!
It takes one sort of person who might rant, rave or insult, but a much stronger sort of soul to ever admit they may have made a mistake, if so doing.

In one sense it matters not who is 'wrong or right' here, (I don't feel I am necessarily 'right' in anything, I just have my maybe 'quirky' points of view!) - what is perhaps more important is that you obviously have a NOBLE character, and you are a BIG, not a 'small' person in this respect.

~So let me buy you a BIG beer sometime! :)

There is but one thing we may now disagree on, -and this is: at no time did I seek to 'attack' you dear soul, -(nor anyone else here) and... I'm not sure if I actually found you 'irrational', ~ nor did I think of you as being 'childish' at any point.
But hey, -we can argue about those little details over a drink! :)

For all of us little humans, the good thing about being sometimes 'wrong' , is that it is a useful learning / starting off place, - whilst the good thing about being always 'right' is that you get to be President of the USA and make a complete and utter mess of everything you touch! ((( ;) )))

Stay bright m'dear.
xx

Jeff - I don't drink. My only regret is that my writing skills are not well-developed enough to demolish the utterly insane thoughts uttered in this thread. If I could think of harsher words, I would use them for the benefit of all sentient beings. Infinite stupidity warrants a scorching response and I just haven't been able to put one together. However, it is not my job to continually point out the mind-boggling arrogance and breath-taking ignorance of those who tell us the stars determine what happens next in the human world. People who like mental pollution are perfectly free, of course, to continue to pollute their minds by reading astrological rantings. Siouxrose and others of her ilk can continue to pollute these threads with their pseudo-spiritual metaphysical stink because posting here is free and easy. I look forward to her further rantings so that I can sharpen my skills at denouncing foolishness. And for those who think this war of words is off-topic - it isn't. Honest thinking, not metaphysics, should be at the heart of every post. No one is perfect, but the least we can do is point out absurdity when we encounter it. Siouxrose, I have your best interest in mind. What can I say to shock you out of your wits? If I was a Zen master, I would awaken you from your slumber. Alas! Words fail me. I know there is a Zen master who reads these posts even though he never weighs in. If he decides to, he will first criticize my use of harsh words and then...

PLAZA TORO: You say the article by Lucinda Marshall is nothing new; you are correct to so state,(for some.)

Much of the writing is new for me, I'm 71 years old and am only begining to awaken to much of what our government does and has done. Naturally the subject matter of this fine article is obviously nothing new. I perceive the purpose of writing it, was with a hope of reminding us of our past and our present deadly faults. If we the people really believe we are actually in control of our government's actions and it's destiny, then we the people are guily of it's misdeeds. If we fail to vote ___ we are double guilty!

I see where SOME here are very critical of the writings of siouxrose. I'm personally NOT a believer of astrology, but I do enjoy reading the siouxrose comments and have no earthly reason to say, or to assume, that what she believes is wrong. We actually just don't know do we? Furthermore, she certainly helps one to think about the wrongs being commited by our government, which is us. Remember what Pogo said?

God bless you Marshall. I won't live to see it but when we have people in power who can understand what you are talking about people will be free to realize their true potential.

I said to myself that I wouldn't comment on this but I'm gonna.
RON: as someone nearly as aged as you who has spent most of his life looking at various beliefs and seeking truth I have reached one firm conclusion.
I am not wise enough to discount anyone else's philosophies.
I have some knowledge of Zen teachings.
And I share your belief that Astrology is probably bogus.
But I cannot prove that and I doubt that you can either.
It is the harshness of your words that bothers me.
If a belief in Astrology makes life more tolerable for some AND harms no one else I fail to see why it has you so worked up.
I personally have a lot of trouble with the idea of "demons" wandering around the world....and as an earlier poster stated perhaps you didn't mean that in a literal sense.
But I cannot disprove that belief. And it surely doesn't bother me that someone else might believe that.
If I were you Ron I think I would just lighten up and have a beer with a Zen chaser.
And I CAN prove the existance of beer:).

all the best

I apologise for my earlier rant of intolerance and UN common dreams is right to attack me for giving up, I got sidetracked and entered into an anti-religious tirade, it's just that the article points out a serious problem with the way our society is going and behaving something needs to be done (sadly, I don't quite know what), but following on from Ron's question -

"How can progressives expect to be taken seriously if that kind of extreme ignorance is expressed in these posts?"

with the importance of such topics as the MIC and the raping of he world by the corporations intent on profit, our protests and indignation loses credibility when serious topics are hijacked by ignorance, we cannot continue to water down rational arguements with spirituality and other mumbo jumbo, thesee are serious world shaping events, everytime the supernatural is invoked we take a step backward. We need to progress and to do so we must accept responsibility for our actions and not attribute our actions to some 'higher' power, no excuses. The people in power that cause such heartache are just that people and they should be brought to book, praying is not going to work, in a democracy we get to vote, we get to decide, let's do so. There are 2 candidates for ths US presidency Gravel and Kucinich, how about a change? they so far seem to talk some sense, how about not falling for the pomp and image, vote on the issues, we don't need a God to set things right we can do it ourselves, let's start right now and stop being sidetracked into matters that don't matter.

Thank you UN common dreams for pointing out my irrationality and childishness.

I'd like to add one more point. All of you 'rational' people who have such venom for everyone with any faith in anything, please remember that the VAST majority of brilliant 'scientific' minds throughout history have been religious people. That's right, and not only were they religious, but most of them gained inspiration from their faith that was instrumental in formulating their scientific theories.

Pythagoras was an occultist who laid down the foundations of trigonometry while trying to discover metaphysical truths.
Gallileo: "I refuse to believe that the Creator who endowed me with logic and reason would have me forgo their use" (or something like that, it's close enough to get the message across)
Newton was into "irrational" theology and numerology.
Einstein: "God does not play dice."

So really now, pretending (and that's all it is, an exercise in make-believe) that religious people and religions itself have been nothing but regressive actor throughout history is so disingenuous as to be nothing but raw and misleading propaganda. The contempt you have (and are willing to show) for your fellow humans and their ideas shows that their propaganda has taken it's proper effect on you. It's easy to divide and conquer when the people really WANT to be divided up.

Also, your hubris is uninspiring. Please, all of you who are so SURE that you know how everything works, give me this somehow perfect model you have, I'd be interested in finally knowing for sure (as you seem to) how reality works. In particular I'd like an explanation of the emergence of consciousness, and how it interacts with physical reality. It DOES exist you know (convincing me otherwise would be a task on the order of getting me to believe that fire isn't ACTUALLY hot, personal experience says otherwise) and I know this because, frankly, here I am.

One other observation: The hubris level of those that have decided (and it's a decision no matter what you think) that they are more 'enlightened' than their peers here is so high as to be simply revolting.

A final question: Which one of you is it that has more insight into how the universe works than Einstein again? I have a couple "simple" questions for your "higher" intellect.

If you haven't already read the fine book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" by John Perkins I suggest that you do so.
It should awaken you to the fact that it is already too late to do much of anything to prevent the collapse of the system.
Run like hell or dig a deep whole and fill it with bottled water.
Then climb in said hole and settle in for a long, long wait.

ldavin says: "...some of us are becoming civilised"

I look forward to that event Idavin, ~ whensoever it occurs! ;)

I for one, was not for a moment 'attacking' Mr Ron, -only presenting my own point of view, hopefully I did it without 'attack'? If not, then I think I failed.

"I'm going into a little corner and I'll be crying..." ~ shame you won't be helping / serving your fellow man Idavin, we maybe coulda done with your help...

I again make reference to *toleration*. Why do so many of we little humans (of any political stripe) find it so hard to do that thing? Why emulate the aggression of our mis-leaders, when we could exemplify a new and better way of relating to each other?

I for one won't ever be "going into a little corner to cry" coz I am committed, -lifelong, to serving my fellow beings, -come what may.

(And I just hope that our friend Idavin doesn't find a 'god' hiding out in that little corner of his!)

;)

Ron: I agree! -truth is essential / crucial. But is there only ONE way to truth? Or could there possibly, ~just possibly, be many viable paths?

"...I apologize for not using language that was strident enough to awaken the deluded."
Hmmmm ! Yes, that's certainly STRIDENT [ = shrill, raucous, discordant, braying, harsh] language, ~ but will it actually 'awaken the deluded'? ~ or will it instead just cause further harmful rifts among co-workers who are, -each in their own way, sincerely seeking a new way forwards?

+++++++++++++++++++++++

And who is to judge themselves more, -or less deluded than another? I'm wondering, (with all due respect), might ego be a little to the fore here?
I may indeed be, -in your eyes- a very 'deluded' being, but I am also a very *loved* and basically happy, optimistic being, who is doing his very level best to try to help his fellow beings; -purely because I care a real lot about this planet and it's many peoples.

Does my supposed 'delusory' state prevent me ever achieving those ends? Well, in all truth, this fool seems to find that whatever it is he is, (and howsoever much deluded), -he is often (in reality) still somehow able to help people a little bit, -here and there...

Though admittedly I maybe a complete moron, I've actually helped lots of people, and still do, -on a daily basis, -in all sorts of ways via my various professional capacities, eg: -my (now) successful, -but once very much struggling students; or my psychotherapy clients (inc those who are now alive and thriving, -whereas at one time they only sought only to self-harm, or kill themselves) ~etc etc...
These are just simple little facts, but maybe they count for nothing in your eyes Mr Ron?

_________________________

Ron says: "...A real Zen master would've shattered without mercy the morons..."
-Er... for my part, such a being, -acting without *mercy*, is not one I'd like to be around! Is he also a 'master' of himself, or just others?

I seem to find that MERCY [ = compassion, forgiveness, empathy, understanding ] is often a very scarce ingredient in this world.
Personally, I'd prefer it if there was a lot *more* mercy, and a lot *less* aggression in our world, ~but that's just a stupid, idiotic moron talking now!

:)

How about the phrase, 'Live and let live' ? ~Is that too much to ask?

What about the concept of *TOLERANCE* of others? -Do we not ask (even in our *worst* moments) to be 'tolerated' by others? -If so, then why not likewise extend that tolerance to others?

Seemingly, you do not 'tolerate fools' gladly Ron, -but have you yourself never been foolish? If not, then you are indeed a *very* rare being! ;)

And what of the biblical aphorism, "First attend to the log in your own eye, before pointing out the speck in your neighbor's eye"?
Is all that too stupid and moronic? (-genuinely, I do hope not).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"A dream that I dream alone is but only a dream.
But a dream that we dream together is reality."
(R. Seixas)

"When a man cares he is unafraid.
When he is fair, he leaves enough for others.
When he is humble, he can grow."
(Lao-Tzu)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With compassion, unity of purpose, and a strong intent to help all sentient beings on their chosen path,

'a complete Moron'

~ (moreron?)

:)

This was a good article. I for one am tired of the way the military is strutted out and honored at practically all events. I don't like seeing the US flag everywhere either. My motto is: Support The Truth. Now I didn't know that many countries pay the US to have military bases. I read recently that the people in Italy were protesting having another base. The people in South Korea aren't happy either. If my history is correct, I don't believe Hawaii desired US occupation and the base at Pearl Harbor.

I find the 4th of July depressing.

Why is everyone picking on Ron?

Siouxrose -"And if you think there is no INTELLIGENCE behind the design, you are wrong; and that NEED NOT contradict the theory of evolution."

you've got to be kidding, pseudo science in not science, with statements like the above you lose all credibility, as harsh as you think Ron was you've proven him right, Astrology is not science and I'm sick of hearing this claptrap and worse still there are people here defending this rubbish, you are deluded and as dangerous as the religious right.

"I knew I risked a certain reflex in some people by putting HIGHER truth on this site." of course you would most readers of this site are rational, logical people, "higher truth" what is that supposed to mean, how about you get your head out of the clouds and join the rest of us mere mortals in reality, your arrogance is on par with your president who claims to have God's telephone number.

It is the religious nuts in the world today that cause all our problems, using irrational superstition to justify inhuman cruelty.

The one thing that gives me hope that the world has a chance is people like Ron, belittle him if you will but he's not hiding behind some mystical bulls***, the truth is that the governments of the world have decided to spend more money on killing people than anything else, we're stuck in the dark ages with better tech.

I have perused this site for the past year, thinking that some progression is being made, some of us are becoming civilised, this discussion has brought the integrity of the site down, I won't be posting anymore, I'm going into a little corner and I'll be crying for humanity, please enjoy yourselves praying to your invisible God hoping he'll intervene, in fact hold your breath.

Good Luck Ron.

PS I apologise for being off topic.

I suggest that a patriot be defined as one who seeks to advance the long term interests of his/her country.

A couple of implications of this definition:

Patriotism is un-Christian to the extent that it involves a loyalty to a particular segment of mankind rather than to mankind as a whole.

Those who sought to prevent the invasion of Iraq are/were more "patriotic" than those who encouraged it.

Samuel Johnson - April 17, 1775

How can we focus on shared goals when we are lost in delusion? Consciousness is infinite and demonic worlds are real; that's where astrology comes from. Zen is not about breaking a board with one whack, spouting peace and love, worshiping pebbles in a stream. It is nothing but a search for truth. We have an affirmative obligation to root out nonsense and to understand that the truth lies beyond words - any belief system is just congealed stupidity. Zen is not a belief system; I believe in nothing, not even the concepts of life and death, subject and object. I apologize for not using language that was strident enough to awaken the deluded. A real Zen master would've shattered without mercy the morons who cling to false ideas, because real Zen masters have more love in them than I do.

This is my first comment on Common Dreams and it may be my last. I've just read all the comments on Lucinda's brilliant article and observed how they began at a high level and descended to argument and personal attack. And we wonder why there is no peace in the Middle East? There seems to be a lot of judging and needing to be right, and not as much acceptance of one another or focus on shared goals. Does it matter if someone looks to the stars and another worships a pebble in the stream as long as we can live together in peace? If we represent the opposition to the current regime, then we are in more trouble than I thought. I've lived outside the US since 1981 and am admittedly out of touch with daily life in the US, but I found this forum rather discouraging.

What happened to Cindy Sheehan's 'matriottism' ?

I'd like to add that (personally) I'm not a complete 'believer' as such, in astrology, but I credit the *true* foundations with being a creditable science (one practiced by the intelligentsia of the ancient, higher echelons of India, the Egyptians, Chaldeans, et al). Plus, many who I respect in this day and age have also given it credence, -but for me, I just hold an open mind on the topic, waiting to prove / disprove as and when. For me it's a 'working hypothesis' I suppose.

I feel much the same towards homeopathy, acupuncture and a few other topics. They seem to work, -often extremely well, and yet they defeat my logic! :)

As regards scientifically proving / disproving astrology, I once thought of an experiment, which may possibly help?

~I believe astrologers maintain that certain Sun signs have a predisposition towards ailments in differing parts of the body, (eg: Aquarians may suffer more complaints in the area between the knee and ankle, and also more prone to the likes of arteriosclerosis).

[BTW: Your own, -your very own!- Dick Cheney, -born in the sign of Aquarius, suffers in both of these areas...]

So, -if someone where to collate information from hospital records, -using data showing what diseases people were admitted into hospital for, and then compared that with their birthdate (= their sun sign) then that might that help show, (one way or the other) whether there was a cogent link with astrology and 'reality' ?

~just a thought!
__________________

Even today there was a new report which gave credence to the power of herbal remedies, (one of the many areas once much discredited by many in mainstream allopathic science?)

It appears that the humble Echinacea plant (which my family have used for many a long year as a sort of, 'nature's antibiotic') is now hailed by 'proper' scientists as being what we had always said it was, viz: a great assistance to banishing colds etc. Here's the link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6231190.stm

And, -(at the other end of the spectrum as it were) here's a link to a story where 'logical and rational' use of scientific blunders have created a problem that never needed to happen, -had folks been a bit more in touch with 'innate wisdom' / common sense, and not heedlessly stuffed farm animals with antibiotics etc, often simply as a ploy to fatten them up (aka: greed).
http://www.soilassociation.org/web/sa/saweb.nsf/89d058cc4dbeb16d80256a73005a2866/5cae3a9c3b4da4b880257...

_______________________________

Friendly note to Ron:
I too was once an ardent fan of Zen, but I found 'the sound of one hand clapping' a bit too loud for me.
I changed stations, and instead now listen with no-mind to the sound of 'One Universe Loving' !

;)
_______________________

The old master, Lao Tse, mentions:
"In this world, there is nothing softer or thinner than water. But to compel the hard and unyielding, it has no equal. That the weak overcomes the strong, that the hard gives way to the gentle -- this everyone knows. Yet no one asks accordingly."

And:
"Kindness in words creates confidence. Kindness in thinking creates profundity. Kindness in giving creates love."
_____________________

~ and yes, sorry if I helped overmuch to bifurcate the discussion away from patriotism and into other matters.
Here's my little mea culpa attempt to try to steer things back in the right direction, - a synthesis of the twain:

(These also from Lao Tse! and directed here towards inane patriotism, which is so often linked to uncivilized military shenanigans):
"He who conquers others is strong; He who conquers himself is mighty. He who controls others may be powerful, but he who has mastered himself is mightier still."

"Have a Rice day y'all!"

;)

xx

xntrk,
A very thoughtful post, thanks. It's always hard to deconstruct the belief system of another individual, even one whom you've spent a great deal of intimate time with. When we each perceive that we exist in a universe of such vast expanse, it's so tempting to cling to that which is bigger than ourselves. I think it's helpful to gain perspective by realizing that America is just a tiny drop in the cosmos, and ultimately of no consequence at all. If you focus your attention on the star Alpha Centauri, you're probably committing a more profound act than all the governments of Earth combined.

Boycott all power concentrations.

I'm a bit baffled by how this discussion turned from the existentials of the US military to existentialism and then a persecution of Sioux Rose. Ron, let's do the math: 59, Zen since 1971, which was 36 years ago, when you were 23; so, er, how long did you study astrology? As I've said before on other threads, I'm a reformed rabid atheist, but only the "rabid" part is reformed, yet I value Sioux's contribution, composition, (not to mention her great spelling). When she mentions Mars I'm charmed, have no idea what she's talking about, and that's fine by me. It's a new experience for me to just let things ride. By increasing my tolerance to new ideas, and perhaps to things I have no interest in investigating, I think I'm taking a step in the right direction. Somehow I don't think Sioux has revoking stem cell research in mind, but by the way you capitalize "The Way" I'm not so sure about you. I'm perceptive enough to realize that you're playing the provocateur; anyone who's studied Zen for 36 years would never use "demon friends" in a sentence pointed at another well-meaning person and really mean it, but exercise some restraint. To play along, I would ask if you really want to ridicule fellow travelers for not fitting your ideal or--a next step--not being sufficiently revolutionary. I would caution you and certain other posters of your sharp resemblance to a notable historical figure: Maximilien François Marie Isidore de Robespierre.

For anyone interest please check out the link below. I hope it works. It is The United States Social Forum taking place in Atlanta Georgia this weekend.

The USSF will provide space to build relationships, learn from each other's experiences, share our analysis of the problems our communities face, and bring renewed insight and inspiration. It will help develop leadership and develop consciousness, vision, and strategy needed to realize another world.

The USSF sends a message to other people's movements around the world that there is an active movement in the US opposing US Policies at home and abroad.
We must declare what we want our world to look like and begin planning the path to get there. A global movement is rising. The USSF is our opportunity to demonstrate to the world Another World is Possible!

https://www.ussf2007.org/

Many years ago I was reading a weighty book about the Holocaust written by a Polish Jew. I think it was written in the late fifties, and I was reading a paperback translation. Tho I don't know the name of the book, or the author, but neither matters.

The premise of the book was that Patriotism and Nationalism had done more irreparable harm to humankind then anything but religion. People were killed, and became killers, to glorify La Patria.

My husband and I had a terrible argument about that premise: he was a veteran, and refused to believe he had been led down the garden path, like all the other men who marched of to kill or be killed, all in the name of 'Patriotism'.

While I thought he had rethought his beliefs [he certainly never waved the flag under my nose again], I was stunned when he was hours away from death to be told he had never changed his mind and still thought I was wrong...

So don't get your hopes up. It takes a lot more then rational arguments and a good presentation to win the hearts and minds of those who drank Patriotism and Nationalism with their mother's milk.

We had a VERY interesting marriage by the way, and it's been a long five years without him. I do think he went a bit far to make his point by checking out on the 4th of July, however...

good discussion -
The military runs 737 military bases according to Chalmers Johnson who wrote Nememsis. I saw a Astralian documentary called "Toxic Avengers" made in 2005 which described the anger which is produced by these military bases: poisoning the ground with PCB's from the fighter plane fuel, amunitions which are not detonated etc, these bases are left to poison the population. The example was Clark Airforce Base and Subic Bay in the Filipines which were deserted after 40 years because the [population was so disgusted with all the prostitution around the bases. So how do terrorists decide to attack the US? Could it be because of the obnoxious military bases?

Yes we need to fire about 2/3 of the entire military budget - and yes we need to stop giving Bush any more money for Iraq in September 2007 - Bush won't be getting it according to NYTImes Frank Rich.

my my ron..
gonna have a hard time convincing me that zen is the way with such strident language..zen to me is the ability to split a piece of wood in one whack--you know like see where the split spot is..stars and sticks and cards and leaves and palms and balls and such are the wisdom of personalities acquired over the ages..
ken

As a practitioner of Zen since 1971 (I am 59), I am quite familiar with new age thinking. I know where Siouxrose is coming from - a place I left long ago. Go ahead and live in your delusions, Siouxrose, but your surety in your viewpoints and your assumption that you speak from a higher plane tells me you are merely an opinionated, clueless, technically illiterate person who knows nothing of higher truth. Sorry, but those who think astrology is a science are so damn ignorant that their opinions on any topic are worthless. So what if your heart is in the right place as your defenders argue? I'm sure that George Bush is also certain that his heart is in the right place. He is a fool. The world needs fewer fools and more people whose heart is in the right place because they are awake, and not sound asleep in delusion. The current mess was caused by sleep-walking Bible-thumping ignoramuses who are certain that they are right. As a believer in astrology and a self-assured one at that, you are a part of the problem. The ability to hold an ignoramus belief is not a virtue; it's a vice. Read The Three Pillars of Zen. Then tell me if you still subscribe to such foolishness as astrology. You are a human being, and you disgrace yourself by embracing a belief system that utterly discards the human intellect. Want to descend into the hell worlds? Continue your studies of astrology with your demon friends. Want to go the other direction? Turn away from the darkness of ignorance and study Zen. You are an indestructible spiritual being - stop disgracing yourself by making arguments based on incandescent ignorance. Technical illiteracy is no virtue and one should not be proud of one's vast ignorance. "If you would walk the highest way, discard opinions pro and con. To founder in dislike and like is nothing but the mind's disease, and not to see the Way's deep truth disturbs the mind's essential peace." Astrology is far from the Way's deep truth. To compare astrology with truth is like comparing the typing of a monkey with the above quoted material written by the Third (Chinese) Patriarch of Zen more than a thousand years ago. There is a difference between nonsense and wisdom. And when nonsense masquerades as wisdom, it's time to expose it for the benefit of all sentient beings. Astrology is unworthy of further study and I hope you turn your mind around before it becomes hopelessly buried in matter. As Dan Quayle said: "It's a terrible thing to waste your mind."

CrackerJack69; a terrific letter to the editor! I'm very impressed with your comments. Keep writing, CJ

UN-common-dreams; you hit the bullseye! One thing about the left...liberals, progressives , new-agers, socialists, communists, anarchists, whatever we are called, by the ruling class, and I'm sorry to say this, but too many of us attack each others opinions and belief system which weakens the progressive movement. One thing you can bet on with the "money and power" people is a constant sticking together in spite of any differences among them. Money and power folks give nothing away and everything in this country that helped us working stiffs, things that we take for granted was fought for.

klever; clever post. I'm in agreement with the siouxrose defense,which she doesn't need.

fpal; That's about right.

Ron; I've been called worse things then an idiot. Offer something constructive, brother.

Sioux - I had a 30 year intimate relationship with astrology. I charted and counselled hundreds of people, taught dozens more, lectured on mundane astrology and global events. I have finally let go of this, my last superstition. Mind you, I have yet to stop my head from doing quick computations whenever I come across dates and data. But that's OK.

It's not that anyone thinks there are 'fixed answers'. It doesn't work like that. For an hypothesis to become a theory, there must be sufficient evidence to support a theory. This must be testable, re-testable and have undergone peer review to even gain any credence.

Theories sit on the edge of a precipice, waiting to be disproved. There is no real certainty. As with the theory of evolution, the growing mountains of evidence from a lot of disciplines that keep supporting that theory is what has made it virtually irrefutable.

Astrology can't provide anything like testable evidence. It is based on subjective observation. Insightful, yes. Independently, objectively testable hypothesis, no. And that is as it should be. Maybe you want to call that left-brain. I call it logic and reason with rationally based understanding. You can call 'other' understandings by whatever you want. Cellular memories, innate feelings, don't understand the 'seeing' of 6 year old feet, though. I would probably call that self-induced wishful thinking. The brain is an extraordinary organ. I enjoy keeping up with neurological data and studies. That provides a lot of insights as well.

Take care

Wow, quite a lot to respond to in this thread.

To begin with, Lucinda is right on that 'patriotism' within the US context needs re-evaluation. Other countries are trying to emulate US patriotism and for the same reasons. It keeps everyone from questioning and allows for 'feel good' gala occasions, and gives tacit consent to the rulers.

Yesterday, I came across a 2hr movie on google called Zeitgeist. I think a lot of you posting here could do with a dose of it. I am not into conspiracies but the makers of this movie present some compelling points.

dkm: we have been avoiding hurting people's feelings or challenging their world views for so long that as PFD says, we allow the sidestepping of logic and reason. It just won't do any more. It gets us nowhere and encourages people to not think rationally and upon good evidence. Not a good look in the 21st century to adhere to archaic ways of ordering the world. We are way past that. Hitchens has a good quote:

"Religion ends and philosophy begins just as alchemy ends and chemistry begins and astrology ends and astronomy begins."

Sioux, I had a 30 year intimate affair with astrology; I counselled hundreds of people, taught dozens more and lectured on mundane astrology and global events. I eventually let go of my last superstition. It feels good, even if I have yet to stop my head from doing quck computations whenever I come across dates and related data! ☺

Onwards:
WW1 and WW11 had nothing to do with the US but a mighty lot to do with building of the US economy (and the corporatocracy) and ensuring military bases would be located in other countries. I hope you realise that a lot of those countries pay the US to maintain its bases. Germany pays $1.6B (in 2002 $US) each year. I posted a number of these countries and the amounts they pay the US on Alternet -
Bahrain - $53.4M
Kuwait - $252.98M
Qatar - $81.3M
UAE - $217.4M
Spain - $127.6M
Turkey - $116.8M
S.Korea - $842.8M
Japan - $4.4B

A good earner for the US, what? These figures come from Chalmers Johnson's excellent book Nemesis. What if all troops were brought home? The US tax payer would have to pay for their upkeep. A bit of a quandry for the Administration wouldn't you say? Of, course Iraq will be offered this 'burden sharing' that Johnson renames 'protection money'. His book is well worth a read. Added a lot to my knowledge about the carryings on of the US.

Indijo - apparently the bill regarding federal taxes has never been enacted. As such, you can just not pay them. A couple of former IRS operatives left the IRS after finding no legal compunction to pay and have not lodged returns since. Neat eh?

The Federal Reserve is the biggest problem. It holds the US to ransom by lending money supply to the country and charging interest on each and every dollar it prints. No way out of that debt. You guys need another revolution to kick out the neo-cons and the money lenders.

It appears true that your country is held in very low esteem internationally. That would only be a problem for you and your pride if it weren't for the fact that the current and accumulated madness in the US administration and the religious right impacts on so much of the rest of the world.

The oil wars mean that you are fighting to win enough oil to keep your MIC fighting the oil wars. It's a nutty situation and a lot of people are hurting because of it.

The US is still empire building when a good look at history tells you that you are on the same downward spiral that has marked the passing of every empire throughout history.

I feel for you ordinary American people and I feel for all the others that have been damaged by the US' looting and pillaging of their countries' resources.

I am not clever enough to know the answers to stop the mire that is spreading around the world. I have to keep reading and finding out whatever I can. That's difficult too considering how much is done behind closed doors and with news networks that are owned by the few and don't 'report' anything that is proper news or proper investigative reports any more.

I am no longer able to anaesthetise myself by watching TV pap designed to keep dumbing down a populace.

I am so glad the internet is available. The finding out becomes easier (though it is also littered with very strange stuff that you have to sift through). I think the revolution you need to have is able to be mobilised by the internet. People are writing very serious books in an effort to educate and stem the rising tide of madness. I am glad they can still be published and that I can buy them. I fear that real censorship is not that far around the corner. The signs are certainly there.

I need a cup of tea.

Heh, was posting my comment when Siouxrose herself stepped up and said everything I was currently typing and more (and nicer too!).

Sokay, being redundant is fine if the redundancy is worth the repetition.

:-)

Ahh, I've actually been wondering how long it would take for a paradigm war to erupt here over Siouxrose's (always insightful) comments. un-common-dreams has come close to laying out my point of view on the subject as his/her(whichever the case may be) own.

Here is a little something I'd like to add, being sure of a couple of things...

The first thing I'm sure of is that none of us, that is it say NOT A SINGLE ONE OF US has a fully functional, specific, and accurate model of the universe at our disposal. Lacking that there is no way to dismiss anyone's paradigm as foolish, especially if it involves aspects currently unmeasurable.

Another thing I'm sure of, and this is really more to the point, is that people who view the world differently than you do ALMOST CERTAINLY have gained insights from that paradigm that you have yet to discover.

So, the basic conclusion I come to is this, Siouxrose being correct or not is both unprovable (at this time, and for various reasons) and (FAR more importantly) IRRELEVANT. She gains insights (of a gentle and compassionate nature, we should all be so lucky) from her worldview that, frankly, seem far more in line with progressive values than much of the drek that floats around here as comments. (Lookin at you Ron)

Get off your high horse of Discovery Channel 'knowledge' and listen to the MESSAGE. That's what's important.

It's nice to be missed (LOL). I didn't expect to be ATTACKED (and thank you dear gentlemen champions, Uncommon Dreams and Klever for defending me and making some important points in so doing)... it was time for my bike ride and immersion in the healing springs near my home. So, back in the saddle, where to begin? First let me say that if I were standing next to a well trained mathematician I would NOT challenge his or her equations. I seriously doubt anyone in this forum has my understanding or expertise regarding the subject of astrology. Any opinions, unless informed are juvenile at best. To Ron, in particular, there's much to learn about yourself from your projected fear and aversion to things OVER YOUR HEAD.
If anyone who wishes to take me on learns the subject, studies the empirical data that links events with major astrological configurations, then we COULD have a civilized discussion. Leveling insults at me for what YOU do not understand, borrowing a prejudice based on a false castigation of a realm of study you have never ventured into, shows a lack of imagination and grace.
I have spent my PRECIOUS time explaining the quintessential differences between logic/left brain and the more expansive intuitive forms of knowledge & direct understanding. To illustrate this point I will relate something anecdotal. Just outside Gainesville Florida was a woman who was trained by Indian medicine men in a ritual known as soul retrieval. If anyone reading this has had a major loss as a child, then parts of your being remain stuck in that energetic zone. I realize that's "new age mumbo jumbo" to the unititiated, but Freud, oh master of psychology thought women were given to psychological problems because they lacked a dick. So please. Let us consider that ALL sources project their own prejudices as a result of a limited mindset. In any case, she called her work "the journey." It consisted of writing down the 3 most traumatic events of one's life and then laying down--as you would for a massage--on a table. The woman never once touched me, but I could feel unbelievable physiological EFFECTS as she cleared my auric field with a feather. (No ordinary feather, no ordinary healer and no the average jerk cannot do this. These are aptitudes that in part work in tandem with forces that your physical senses cannot see, nor are they equipped to.) It was chilly in that room and I had to pee, so I think I rushed the ritual. When I threw my legs over the table to use her bathroom, I saw my feet as those of a 6 year old child: the age of my first traumatic event. PART OF myself in consciousness had "returned" to that point in time. I went outside and wrote my impression of the experience and how she had faciliated it and sent her a copy. She read it and cried. She said no one had ever captured it just as she saw it... and her mate worked at the University of Florida, a left brain scientist type. He read my account of "the journey" and said, "I hate the way this woman writes." I have had this before with extremely left brain-trained men. Fellas, there's some arrogance in this because you're really trying to protect the sense that you have fixed answers... that's why this material seems dangerous enough to win these insults. That's your defenses... God forbid your illusion of being in a separate body, in control of all things including fate, should fall away. It comes down to whether you believe this is a benevolent universe or not. And if you think there is no INTELLIGENCE behind the design, you are wrong; and that NEED NOT contradict the theory of evolution. The difference of course is one of time... intelligence is still creating, and we are co-partners to this end-less, time-less process.
I knew I risked a certain reflex in some people by putting HIGHER truth on this site. Notice I don't pretend to be an expert about economics, I listen to the arguments raised by those better informed than I am about world history. We SHOULD learn from one another here... but trying to slay the messenger (the message I happen to be equipped to share) is not kind, it mostly projects the ignorance of the person whose defenses deflect an unfamiliar perspective, and it's NOT very progressive. As I like to say, "don't limit possibility."

I am greatly disturbed that we seem to be moving into an era where one can claim that all kinds of fantastical notions like astrology and miracle cures merely because they assert it.

When someone provides me with a properly designed, peer-reviewed study showing that predictive power of sstrology, I will believe in astrology.

The current crop of 'self proclaimed patriots' would torture our founding fathers until they gave up on their 'socialist ideas'.

I too enjoyed the article.

Quote from Carl Sagan.

"The world is my country, and science is my religion".

From my perspective, not a bad place to start.

Free Leonard Peltier!

June 26, 2001 will mark 36 years since the F.B.I., utilizing agent/operatives and recruited extremist informants,
initiated a fire fight at the Jumping Bull residence on the Pine Ridge Reservation in South Dakota that resulted in the death of a
young Oglala man, Mr. Joseph Stuntz, and two federal agents, Mr. Ron Williams and Mr. Jack Coler. They and their loved ones
as well the loved ones of dozens of other Indian people murdered and Leonard Peltier are the principal victims of the reign of
terror conducted by the F.B.I. and other government agencies. Subsequently, this year will also mark the 31st year of
imprisonment for Mr. Leonard Peltier.

http://www.aimovement.org/peltier/index.html

PJD:
"And Siouxrose, sorry but astrology is nothing but superstition. The positions of planets tens to hundreds of millions of miles away, and stars hundreds of light year, away do not influence human affairs in the least bit."
~Yet, to say the least, the moon has a gravitational effect upon the female menses, as well as our Earthly tides?

With all due respect PJD, but it has e'er been the case, -throughout human history - that they who are not apprised of the full picture, are (nonetheless) often wont to utterly dismiss that which they do not (as yet) fully comprehend.

~ As Shakespeare said: "There is more to heaven and earth Horatio than this world dreams of…"

PJD again:
"Siouxroses writings are flowery new-ageish language intended to short-circuit logic and reason. We should address urgent issues with the humanist values of reason and logic, informed by the human instincts of kindness and compassion…"

I would respectfully suggest that there is, -actually, a lot more to life than this persistent (generally male) over-reliance upon, "reason and logic" has to offer.
The Nazis (to quote but one of many) were 'reasoned and logical' in their conclusion that Jewish, homosexual and Romany people were worthless scum, -and thus could (logically and reason-ably) be wiped from the earth?
[etc, etc]

++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Human history is FULL of very gross mistakes committed by those who had only 'reason and logic' at their helm.
You also say: "...*Informed* by the human instincts of kindness and compassion..." - but could those latter attributes be not better placed BEFORE logic and reason, and let kindness and compassion be *informed* by logic and reason?
~ "Cart before the horse", and all that?

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with 'reason and logic', as far as they go, but what was, (-and is still), lacking in that picture, is the addition of WISDOM and LOVE in our age.
Logic and reason are everywhere, - but love and wisdom are woefully in short supply in our age methinks?

If 'reason and logic' are not blent with the warmer attributes, then almost 'anything goes': –murders, death camps, tortures, child rapes, bombing of innocent civilians... all of these can be justified with somebody's 'reason or logic', ~ but not *one* such terrible offence can be justified if a person *first* acts with love and compassion towards their fellow human beings.

~ Might you agree with any of that PJD?
__________________

dkm writes:
"...Having said that, it is true that arguing points of fact from an astrological viewpoint is silly. If we really want to change the world, we need to deal with reality..."

I agree DKM, reality is *essential*, -which means we have to abandon any unrealities conjured up via drugged dreams, as well mass media fictions, and focus on ALL realities, seen and as yet not widely seen.

This topic brings up a disparate variety of philosophical viewpoints concerning 'reality', but who among us is to know (categorically, absolutely, 100%) that sciences such as astrology are completely without foundation?

Sure, the mass media version is garbage, but then, so is the equivalent piffle spouted by many commentators, about so much that is otherwise worthy and of note!
~ Do we ourselves not also suffer from having our very valid ideas rubbished by the deeply-unknowing ones in the media?

In the same way, there is, (-actually, in reality!) a lot of stuff out there, which mainstream 'science' denies utterly, -but which have (actually) a concrete foundation in reality.

There are COUNTLESS examples of this 'denier' phenomenom, (-far too many to mention here!), - everything from the records of the Society of Psychical Research though to alternative medicines et al.
I am not one to readily take on outlandish beliefs, but over the years, -to remain true to empirical, personal evidence, I've had to acknowledge that what I once thought was spurious was often then proved to be real.

Even as a non-believer, I have (in reality!) –(eg)actually healed people with chronic medical conditions from great distances, and I've had (drug free!) experiences of consciously existing outside of, and away from my body... and many, many more so-called 'weird' experiences...

Now current 'reality science' would attempt to dismiss all of those things as anything at all, ~ just as long as they could remain fixed firmly in their dogma, and entrenched [materially-biased] intransigence!

But the future is not just about being stuck eternally, horribly, -in extant materialism, all that old stuff is on the wane.
The future has many wonders which we have yet to see, --which have yet to be revealed, and many in the present world will be utterly astounded if they had a glimpse of these things!
________________

A request to the narrow thinkers (-world wide), and to those who are so quick to demean everything which they do not yet properly or fully understand: "*Please* take note of the pattern of human history ~ wherein SO much that was 'real' (but yet hideously rubbished by the 'status quo' of that age), was then later appraised, and found to be real, and actual, and of great value!

Don't agree?

Then ask Galileo's persecutors what they think of the concepts: "Space Travel, Computers, Antibiotics, the Infernal Combustion engine, Lasers, Television, Mobile Phones, Submarines, MRI scans, the Internet, Radio, or even the humble electronic carving knife!" ~ and all the other plethora of things that, -a few centuries back, would have been a hang-able offence to think or speak of!

Bon voyage m'dears!

:)

Look, people. Everyone agrees that Siouxrose's heart is in the right place. She is trying to make this a better, more peaceful world. So try to not hurt her feelings.

Having said that, it is true that arguing points of fact from an astrological viewpoint is silly. If we really want to change the world, we need to deal with reality, the ONLY thing that works. And reality will continue to be real no matter how much New Age mysticism we throw at it. Reality not only doesn't care what you THINK, it isn't even aware that you are thinking. All reality cares about is what you DO, so in order to influence reality, we need to understand it, to study it, to poke and prod at it to see what happens. That leaves out mysticism of all kinds including virgin births, transubstantiation and original sin. To continue to argue using baseless "facts" only hurts the position one is taking regardless of how valid the original position was. It allows the opposition to focus on your facts rather than your position and thus appear to have defeated you even when they haven't even addressed your position. So, please, people. Stick to reality or else the knucledraggers will win the argument.

Siouxroses writings are flowery new-ageish language intended to short-circuit logic and reason. We should address urgent issues with the humanist values of reason and logic, informed by the human instincts of kindness and compassion, what else do we need to know?

By the way Siouxrose, are you of Lakota descent?

Yes, as Maj. Gen. Smedly Butler said: "The only things worth defending with our military are our homes and the Bill of Rights, the rest is just a racket"

Ron:

Wow! Siouxrose is far more articulate than me-perhaps she'll respond to you directly.
My response to you is-does for instance Catholicism make more sense than astrology? To wit-the virgin birth [sex is "dirty" and can be used as part of the oppression of the "flock"-and my absolute favorite-original sin-a baby is born flawed!
Perhaps monotheism is the most logical system for humans-but certainly not in the co-opted forms in modern times.
Whether or not you agree with Siouxrose's beliefs-her posts are beatifully written and provocative.Is that not valuable to you?

" the military defends our freedom and without it, I could not write these words. "

This sentiment has been expressed too many times without anyone looking at it and wondering now WTF is that supposed to mean? When was the last time that the military protected my rights? WWII? Where has the threat to my rights come from now? The Oval Office and the Dick's office. Why isn't the military doing something to protect my rights now? After all, everyone of them swore an oath to protect the Constitution from all enemies both domestic and foreign. At least some of Hitler's generals had enough love for their country to try to blow him to pieces.

The root of the problem for me has always been the utterly, loony preposterous notion that invading impoverished nations that are not threatening me in the least - from Vietnam, to Nicaragua, to El Salvador to Indonesia to Grenada to Panama to Afghanistan to Iraq - are "defending my "freedom"!!!

No, Mr. War-Pig, you are NOT defending my "freedom" whatever that is supposed to mean.

Look, even Japan, Nazi Germany, or even the Soviet Union had neither the interest and/or the means to invade and occupy the North American continent.

And Siouxrose, sorry but astrology is nothing but superstition. The positions of planets tens to hundreds of millions of miles away, and stars hundreds of light year, away do not influence human affairs in the least bit.

Ron says: "Siouxrose and all of her admirers: You are all idiots..."

Dear Ron, I am really okay if you wish to call me an idiot, but I can't really consider Siouxrose one.
I am not, (as you phrase it), 'an admirer' as such, -but I do appreciate a lot of her writings as being perceptive, caring and incisive.

But either way Ron, does it actually *help* the cohesion of our movement towards new thinking and change, to go round calling intelligent, caring people (-your fellow workers), "idiots"?

Tell me Ron, -if you would please, have you yourself never acted or spoken idiotically?
I certainly have acted idiotically on MANY occasions! :)

If you have too, why bother to castigate someone else, when you might be contributing something more positive to the discussion?
To disagree with someone's ideas is legitimate, -but to try to dismiss an intelligent person as an 'idiot' is less than helpful?

One of the reasons the world is in such a mess at the moment is that there is such a propensity for division, aggression, hateful words, BLAMING, and lack of unity in our race.

The cure for these ills is not to simply replicate previous errors of aggression and intolerance, but to learn how to be, -and act, and speak DIFFERENTLY from how we did it before.

That means changing *ourselves* ~from being nasty aggressive, intolerant toads, into being understanding, tolerant and lo, ... even *loving* fellow members of the human family! :)

I hope you don't consider my words above TOO 'stupid;' and 'idiotic' Ron?

I am reminded of the saying: "If you always do, as you've always done, nothing will change."

That kinda applies to all of us m'dear...

Singed,

'a very stupid idiot'

:)

Patriot: "-a U.S. army anti-aircraft missile with a range of 37 miles and a 200-lb warhead."
Is that particular 'Patriot', -as used by belligerent armies in faraway lands (not their own), actually *patriotic*, ~or just idiotic?

The word Patriot stems from the Greek (patros) for "father".
Patriots are supposed to 'love their fatherland', (-but not their motherland?) and patriotism in itself is no wonderful thing; ~ after all, Nazi supporters 'patriotically' loved their fatherland (Germany) - as ruled by a certain A. Hitler...

I have a notion the this 'patriot' thing is closely associated with the duping of childlike minds by coercive and mendacious 'parental' figures who've wormed their way to the top of the societal / political dung heap.

Anyone who has studied Dr Eric Berne and his T.A. [Transactional Analysis], will know of the P.A.C. (Parent, Adult, Child) relationship, wherein anyone 'pulling rank' as a 'Parent' figure, -tends to cast his / her peers into 'Child' mode.
[for further reading see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Games_People_Play_%28book%29]
__________

Government figures, especially the worst of the breed, use this knowledge to their full and selfish advantage, and so manipulate their 'children' (-eg: we the electorate) by first trying to scare us with inflated *bogeyman* threats, and then pretending to be the 'rescuing' parent who will 'guard against all ills', (-even as they are secretly misappropriating various state funds!)

Even as a teacher, the moment I stand up in front of a class of students (including adults), I perceive my students' attitude towards me often coming from their 'child' selves, -even though I go out of my way to create a peer-to-peer relationship!

__________________

We need to mature, and gain psychological independence from our supposed _in loco parentis_ government 'parents', ~ that situation wherein we hand all the power to our 'paternal' leaders.

We need to wrest back our power, and thus be able to make intelligent decisions about our own lives, freed of interference from those often very inappropriate / corrupt leaders.

Horace Walpole said, "The most popular declaration which a candidate could make on the hustings was that he had never been, and never would be, a patriot."
[~Almost a paraphrase of McCarthy there!]

To be a patriot, a tame parrot, -or both? -that is the question! REAL Patriots in the USA could justifiably almost conduct 'Pat-Riots' in the streets! –in the light (-or dark!) of what their malevolent government has done in the name of this tendentious word.
________________

Siouxrose: "Nature herself burns as a result."
Yes indeed, we are not 'loving our Mother' much at that moment!
And: "[let us] ...get with a higher program..." ~Yes please!!

Also: " ...Creation is involved in an everlasting process without beginning or end, and the activities of us mortals here on earth helps to grow Creation. Of course that is when we accord with principles of love, light and creativity. Acts of destruction, hatred and darkness challenge evolution..."
~ I couldn't agree more Sioux!
__________________

I am pleased here to recall a very UN-patriotic fellow countryman's words: Here's the renowned UK poet Roger McGough, and his early poem, written in the Vietnam period:

"Why Patriots are a Bit Nuts in the Head"

"Patriots are a bit nuts in the head
Because they wear
red, white and blue-
tinted spectacles
(red for blood,
white for glory,
and blue...
for a boy)
and are in effervescent danger
of losing their lives

lives are good for you

when you are alive
you can eat and drink a lot
and go out with girls
(sometimes if you are lucky
you can even go to bed with them)

but you can't do this
if you have your belly shot away
and your seeds
spread over some corner of a foreign field
to facilitate
in later years
the growing of oats by some peasant yobbo
when you are posthumous, it is cold and dark
and that is why patriots are a bit nuts in the head."

:)

Over the years the NSS has attracted thousands of devious-secretive-sadistic types into their cabal.Thus the positive-you know where they are. Mutually reinforcing bad behaviors is another matter of course.
So many well versed comments on this thread-too bad almost none of them even lightly touched on in US textbooks.

The U.S. military works for oligarchical collectivism.

Lucinda Marshall's peice reminds me of a "joke," and not a very funny one at that, I received in my e-mail this morning. The "joke's" subject matter was an atheist professor, who is a member of the ACLU and a marine.

The punchline belongs to the marine who says, after flattening the professor with one punch,"God was too busy today protecting America 's soldiers who are protecting your right to say stupid sh*t and act like an a**hole. So, He sent me."

I can well imagine this type of humor went over big in Germany, c. 1937 or so.

Methinks we need to stop calling working for the military "service." They do not serve us at all. They have made ordinary Americans unwelcome in many countries around the world. No one "serves" in the military. Soldiers are employed by the Army, Marines by the Marine Corps, and so on. Let's drop this talk of service.

Siouxrose and all of her admirers: You are all idiots. Consider this quote: "there is nothing as accurate as astrology in the explanation for human character and destiny." How can progressives expect to be taken seriously if that kind of extreme ignorance is expressed in these posts? I feel embarrassed to be in the same forum with such mind-boggling stupidity.

Lucinda, that is a succinct summation of the problem. But it is not new. What you are talking about is what America has been for a long time. Just read John Dos Passos novels (1919, The Big Money, The 42nd Parallel) which expose the same sort of US culture 100 years ago. Just look at the Industrial Workers of teh World (the IWW) movement early last century, at what happened to the US WWI veterans who sought better conditions when they came home. Wages for workers in the timber industry in the West/northwest had increased by something like 15% while living costs and profits inthat industry ahd gone up some 150% [or figures as egregious as that] but when the workesr, including many veterans who had fought for their country, tried to get modest pay increases the bosses, with government backing and approval moved in gangs of thugs to smash (I use the word deliberately) even peaceful meetings of these equally patriotic Americans.
Before Roosevelt, whenever anyon tried to improve the lot of ordinary people, teh full weight of government came down on them - troops and all. Macarthur and Eisenhower were part of teh command structure that turned the US Army on WWI veterans who marched on Washington, not for revolution but to draw attention to their poor financial plight, in the early thirties.
What is happening now is nothing new. It is merely the latest development in what America really is.

It has been said that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. I have been using this comparison to describe real patriotism. The root of the word implies being a parent to ones country. A good parent is proud of his/her child when appropriate. But, when a child does wrong headed things it is child abuse to turn away and say he is just being a kid.

Those who ignore the crimes of the Bush or anyother administration are not blind patriots. They are excersizing selective ignorance. "My country right or wrong. When right to keep her right. When wrong to put her right."

Here's a question for everybody:

Has the US National Security State, which officially came into being in 1947 when Harry "Nukem" Truman signed National Security Directive No.1 - an executive order that never went through any legislative process and is unknown the the vast majority of US citizens - done a single useful thing with our vast military/industrial/espionage/corporate government conglomerate that achieved anything good, or successful at all?

Please enlighten me. There has to be something the NSS can claim as a positive development.

Thank you.