Please go see SICKO opening weekend - June 29th. We need movies like this to do well so people will continue to make and invest in films that talk about real issues and can really make a difference.

We pay twice as much per capita as those other countries and still manage to have 50 million people without coverage. Our leaders a corupt and incompetent. They are owned by the people who are reaming us.

Sigh...another propaganda film by a Democrat mouthpiece.

It's obvious that Moore only included interviews with people that agreed with his position on this film. I have friends and co-workers that live in Canada and the UK and they tell me that their healthcare system is deplorable in comparison to what we have in the United States. It's next to impossible to schedule routine checkups and when they do see a physician the checkups are substandard at best.

What I really want to know though, is why do people think they are entitled to free healthcare? If you can't afford it, then sorry, you lose. Find some charity to help you with your cause, but don't expect tax payers to fund your problems. Now that's not to say I'm completely against some government intervention. Things like vaccines absolutely should be made available at no charge to low income families.

If you really want to address the faults with America's current health system, then have Congress pass laws restricting the types of litigation against doctors and hospitals. These lawsuits lead to the need for increased insurance coverage and mountains of paperwork and fees to deal with administrative buerachracy.

Of course congress won't fix the litigation issues since Senators such as John Edwards made their millions off the healthcare industry via friviolous malpractice suits.

I am a Canadian and it's true that our health care system has serious problems, chief among these being surgical wait lists. And it is not entirely free to health care users. Our health care is provincially administered and there are differences between the various provinces in terms of coverage and cost to users. As a single resident of the province of British Columbia, I pay a monthly premium of $54.00 Cdn. (As for "lawabider" saying we shouldn't expect taxpayers to pay for our problems -- we ARE the taxpayers! The next time you drive over a taxpayer-funded road, consider paying your full cost of that system. We do these things for each other because it makes us more cohesive socially and, something you can understand - they make sense economically.)
There are services which were never covered such as optometry and dentistry. There are others such as massage therapy and podiatry which were previously covered but have since been cut by our right-wing* government in BC. However, visits to your doctor are still covered as are hospital visits and operations.
The debate over whether to increase the amount of privately provided health care services in the system has been a hot-button issue here for many years. I would agree with the author of this article that one of the biggest culprits is underfunding--along with the ideological attacks from the same parties responsible for the underfunding. In addition, everyone has to understand that there are aging populations and diminishing taxpayer bases due to declining birth rates(more applicable in Europe and Canada than the U.S.)
Emphasis on prevention will have to be promoted much more strongly to help decrease the load on the system. However, in the end, the premise of universal health care is sacred here. A Canadian politician who campaigned for the abolition of public in favour of private health care would be as likely to win an election as an American politician who advocated the abolition of religion.
Good for Michael Moore. This method of using popular films to concentrate the public mind on important issues, however fleetingly, seems to be performing a role which has been abdicated by the elected representatives whose job it is to do so. Let's hope this trend grows and stimulates the population to prod governments into action not just in health care but across the spectrum of public needs. Perhaps the next film could deal with campaign finance and the corruption endemic in the current system.

--*Right-wing is a relative term. In Canada, a right-wing political party would support policies more like centrist Democrats or moderate Northern Republicans.

lawabider-meet blcksmth[see yesterday's thread] though your writing at least can be deciphered.

No one on this site is asking for free healthcare-it's quality care for all through SHARED taxes-doable when insurance company skimming is eliminated.
Did Sen. Edwards make his money from "frivilous" lawsuits? Doubtful since such suits are routinely thrown out of court. But in any case without aggressive representation medical victims would have zero chance for any semblance of justice.
Your allowance of free vaccine for poor chilren was touching in context of your selfish overall comments.

lawabider -

Spoken like a true American ... fool. I'm sure there are waiting lines for nose jobs and tummy tucks, but if you're injured, you WILL get care in the UK & Canada.

If everyone put a computer generated sign on their back window saying:

"The time for single-payer, universal, government run health care is NOW!"

I'l bet the whole country would demand more answers from their representatives than they do now!

Print it in bold 72 point type and tape it on th inside of your back window so everyone can plainly see it in traffic. It costs almost nothing and can change the discussion in this country between now and election day in 08.

Good strategy, poet! I can do this!

"What I really want to know though, is why do people think they are entitled to free healthcare? If you can't afford it, then sorry, you lose."

What a twisted mind. It's because we want our tax dollars spent on US! Not to subsidize mega-corporations,infernal war machines, and all of the other crap that OUR money gets squandered on! Idiots that take the position of this "person" (I question the humanity of anyone with said MENTALity)and support the broken system that we have and the road toward our destruction that bushco is marching the country down will find that they will have a HEAVY price to pay when the shit hits the proverbial fan.

Is it a threat? NO, it's a promise. The majority will pounce on you like the rats that you are and devour you when the bottom drops out.

My brother-in-law had the exact same attitude and concerns as lawabider. He believed that providing health-care for all would impact his and his family's ability to get the health-care they were used to getting.

Then he contracted lung cancer. He then realized that, even with an excellent health-care plan, he was going to be thousands of dollars out-of-pocket. In his last few weeks he shared with me his new-found belief that health-care should not be "for profit" - that everybody in this country should be provided a decent level of health-care, regardless of ability to pay.

I guess reality can be quite a wake-up call...

Hey lawabider,

Next time you use police/fire services, or go to a restaurant that has been inspected for hygeine, or drive down the road, or go to the park, or go to the library, can I bill you for the amount is cost me?

I have relatives in Canada and they praise their healthcare system. My sister complained about waiting for some surgery until I told her how long I had to wait for similar surgery here in the U.S. My wait was longer.

A few years ago I married a lovely Canadian gal. We worked (as computer programers) in the US during the IT boom, but when the bubble burst we both lost our jobs (and the associated the health cover) and decided to move to Canada. It was tough at first, but both of us did find pretty good jobs. But at least during our period of unemployment we did not have to worry about health insurance (except during the 1st 3 months after we moved to Canada).

What really sold me on the Canadian health system are the events that happened when my wife was expecting our first child. By law every pregnant woman in Ontario has to have a blood test in the 5th month to test for a certain protein which might indicate that the fetus maybe have genetic problems.

Alas, the protein being tested for came back as being a lot higher than normal, indicating that our baby may have genetic deformities.

Cost of test: $0!

After the test, the ob/gym referred us to a geneticist to have an amniocentesis test done, along with detailed 3d ultrasounds (both appointments were set up for less than 2 weeks after the referral).

Cost of both tests: $0! (have no idea if an insurance plan would even cover these in the US, and what the price might be).

The 3-d ultrasounds revealed that our child had a cleft lip and quite possibly a cleft palate as well. Thankfully, the amniocentesis came back all clear! And the ob/gym and the geneticist both recommended that we not terminate the pregnancy.

We were immediately referred to the Hospital for Sick Children in Toronto (considered to be one of the finest childrens hospital in the world, and a source of great deal of pride to Canadians) to see a plastic surgeon in their cleft lip and palate repair division. The plastic surgeon saw us 2 days after the referral and explained what the procedures would entail.

A few months later, our son was born and was normal in every way except for the cleft lip and palate. His lip repair surgery was done when he was 5 months old (and unless you look closely to his lip you will not guess that he had a cleft), and his palate repair was done 2 days after his 1st birthday. Both surgeries were done during the recommended time frame, no unnecessarily long waits for us.

After my son was born, he needed to be fed from a special bottle (as children with cleft palates cannot form the suction needed to suck milk directly), so the pediatrician and the ob/gym both kept my wife and son in the hospital until such time they were confident that we could feed our son with the bottle. We ended up staying at the hospital for 7 days. And for 6 weeks following our return home, twice a week the hospital sent a nurse over to make sure that we were not having difficulty in feeding the baby

Cost of both surgeries: $0.00
Cost of hospital stay: $0.00 (BTW the hospital is like a 5 star hotel)
Cost of post-operative care: $0.00
Cost of child-birth hospital stay: $0.00

Of course the Canadian system is not perfect. No system. But at least 1/6 of the population is not completely without health care. People are not going broke because of exhorbitant health care costs. Neither are people being cheated by unscrupulous insurance companies focussed exclusively on maximizing their quarterly financials. But based on my own personal experiences no one will ever be able to convince me that the US for-profit system is superior to that in Canada. I shudder to think how my son's surgeries would have been financed had we been in the US.

We need Michael Moore and his films, and "Sicko" may well be his best. Let me add to his tales of outrageous abuse of the health system in this country. My MD, "specialist," ordered a test he needed before he could make a diagnosis. I paid him $85.00 for him to write out an order for the test. I had the test, and paid for it because my so-called health insurance didn't cover such tests (a prostate cancer screening). Several weeks later, that doctor called and told me to make an appointment to come in and review the results of the test. I did this. It took a month to see him. I waited an hour for the "busy" MD to see me. When he finally showed up, without apology for his rude behavior, he told me the test was negative. I was happy about that. But he charged me $85.00 for less than a minute of his time. Like a sucker, I paid. A few weeks later I met him in a veterinarian clinic. He had a dog that looked like it ate enough per day to feed a family of four in some poverty-stricken country for a week, maybe more. I nodded and said "Hi, Dr. ___." He turned his back to me. That's a U.S. doctor; that's the U.S. health care system. And our government doesn't care.

lawabider: I am about 90% certain that you are a paid schill for the health and/or insurance industries.

Readers may not know this, but these industries, like the oil industry, actually pay people to visit various lefty blogs and pretend that they are just plain old folks expressing their opinions. Lawabiders "opinions" are just too slickly in line with the industry propagandists. Why else would some fool with these dinosaur views be bothered with Common Dreams?

I sprained my ankle during a visit to the UK back in 2001. I went to the local A&E Department (Emergency Room) filled out some forms and was seen in 30 minutes. Afterward I asked about payment. To my suprise they said that since I had not left the A&E department I, a tourist, didn't have to pay! After returing home I checked with a friend who had a similar injury and he paid over $350 for the vist to an ER here in Missouri because he had no insurance. All this after waiting for over three hours in pain.

Michael Moore has proven himself to be one of the great contemporary filmmakers. His newest film, SICKO, touches me personally. I had 2 health insurance companies that were both trying to deny payment of a needed cancer surgery. Fortunately, my detail oriented wife was able to document all statements and requirements and I luckily had the surgery. The friday before surgery, I was called by the hospital telling me that the surgery would be cancelled unless Kaiser(my primary provider) issued a letter of denial which they only did after my wife went ballistic on them. I'm hopeful but wary that the hospital stay(8000$/day) will be covered. Insurance companies are criminals, denying care or intimidating people to discourage them from needed care. Thanks, Mr. Moore, you are a true american hero in my eyes.

My lovely (she would give anyone the shirt off her back) mom's experience with the American medical system taught me exactly what we are dealing with. She had an uncaring primary physician who refused to prescribe pain medication when the visiting healthcare nurse begged him for it on mom's behalf. On mom's last night on earth, she had to be hospitalized. Her physician showed up in Intensive Care. Hearing his voice, she called out to him. He came in and patted her hand. The next day, he told us she would die in a matter of hours. We sat with her all day, while the machines beeped and nurses came in periodically when the morphine wore off. Finally, a nurse said that the doctor could have just prescribe a morphine pump to spare mom the intermittent pain. As usual, he could not be reached. After mom died, we sat in her room for three hours until a physician came up from Emergency to pronounce her dead. Nothing was said to us by him or the nurses at that time. By the way, the nurses had a party at their station while mom lay dying. And her physician sent Medicare a bill for $8,000.00.

The message is anti-American, but unfortunately most Americans just don't get it. The business of America is business: the government and legal structure exit to maintain and to strengthen the power structure, which comprises a tiny minority that owns or controls the majority of the productive wealth of the country. Therefore any suggestion that tends to hurt a major industry, no matter how important for the health and safety of the American people, is anti-American.

Did you get this far down the comment list???
Bravo, you must really be burned up.
Well F the medical and pharmaceutical industry.
This is a Disease Maintenance Country. Not a damn thing about Health Care in it.

Moore says there are four healthcare lobbyists for each member of Congress. Can someone get the names of these 1740 people and put them in the public domain? Better yet, how much has each contributed to the current crop of Presidential candidates?

H.R. 676--get your congressman to cosponsor it if he or she is not already a cosponsor. It is our best hope not only for maintaining our heatlh but slso for retaining our humanity and dignity.

dponcy & klever

Really gotta wonder if lawabider and blcksmth are the same paid shill for the healthief industry no?

Noted that neither one had anything to say after their initial comment, and as someone noticed, what in the hell would people with attitudes like that be doing reading, let alone posting on commondreams. I wonder what he/she will call him/herself tomorrow.

Eventhough I am a US citizen by birth I am deeply ashamed of being so, which is why I identify myself with my Mexican roots. What this and past administrations have done in the name of america and its citizens is deplorable. About the film....sure, the documentary portrays one side of things and does not explain the problems that exist with those health systems but isn't that what politicians do anyway? If you want something to be aproved then you omit certain parts as to avoid a discussion. As people above already said, its not perfect...nothing is but it sure works a whole lot better that the for-profit crap we have now. We could at the very least try to do what the French do when their rights are tampered with, organize protests. It is the government that should fear its people, not the other way around...after all they are the ones working for us.

lawabider wrote: "I have friends and co-workers that live in Canada and the UK and they tell me that their healthcare system is deplorable in comparison to what we have in the United States. It's next to impossible to schedule routine checkups and when they do see a physician the checkups are substandard at best."

Time to get new friends that don't lie to you! :-)

Here's a newly-minted Canadian who moved here FOR the health care -- among other things. After being without insurance in the US for a decade, I scheduled a routine physical exam soon after qualifying for Medicare in BC -- and was in the doctor's office in JUST THREE DAYS!

My spouse had a bad fall and we called the hospital emergency room. They were concerned about a back or neck injury, and sent an ambulance over. It was here in under ten minutes. When she got to the hospital, they asked for her physician's name, called him, and he was there within fifteen minutes. She had x-rays, and her doctor and the radiologist weren't quite sure about something, so the ambulance took her on a ferry to a bigger hospital on another island, where she had an MRI.

Luckily, all was well, except for a splitting headache. Cost of all this: $0. Peace of mind from this experience: priceless.

Contrast this to my most serious contact with the US "doctor-care" system. I had a herniated disk, and was flat on my back for eight weeks -- that's how long it took to get to see a back specialist. She examined me, and said, "We think you're an excellent candidate for surgery!" I then used my four magic words, that are always good for a discount: "I don't have insurance." She replied that we could try something "more conservative" first, put me on steroids, and I was 90% better in a week. $50 worth of pills saved me $5,000 or more of surgery, not to mention a dozen weeks of recuperation. Hey, that's some system!

I'm proud to be an immigrant to a country that spends more on their citizen's health than they do on weapons.

Lawabider, of course, does not belive in society at all. At the end of the day, he does not belive in America, either. Only in a squabble of individuals, a heap of (few) winners and (many) losers.

When Margaret Thatcher said "There is no such thing as society, there are individuals and there are families", I would like for someone to have asked the obvious question: "what, then, is a Prime Minister"?

The US system is so hit-or-miss.

When I worked in IT I had a typical employer-sponsored PPO (PHCS) that cost me $1/month and my employer around $350/month. Needless to say it didn't give me "my" choice of doctors, just "a" choice from a list. The co-pays were reasonable but when you have to go outside the network, the doctor will charge his highest rate and PHCS will only pay their lowest rate, minus the co-pay. The company self-insured so part of their premium went to re-insurance and the rest is really a sort of accounting mystery, some of it being used to pay out claims, and the rest not really being paid into a system at all.

The coverage was very good for a friend of mine who was struck by a car. I suppose that's what we're insuring against.

I don't know how much PHCS gets from the administration of the plan, but when I had COBRA, I paid a lot more than I got back. Considering that catastrophic coverage can be obtained for about $80/month, the rest of the money is gravy and prescription drugs.

Then, while I went back to school, I had "HealthyNY" through CDPHP. At the time, I paid $180/month and the state kicked in their portion. They didn't cover my monthly medication so I had to obtain it from the maker's charity program. Of course, if the maker charged a reasonable price, like $40 or $50 a month, I wouldn't have needed charity. But instead they charge up to $600 a month and that was about twice my income.

Eventually I qualified for "FamilyHealth Plus", a fully-subsidized program. It covered the medication at $6/month, and doctor visits were cheap.

In NY, it doesn't pay to make a "reasonable" amount of money. If you're poor, you get good, cheap health coverage and subsidized housing. If you're wealthy, you can buy coverage and housing to suit your needs. But if you're part-time, temporary or self-employed, it is very hard to cover yourself. Premiums are around $600/month for HMO coverage. Between that, rent and living expenses, you have to gross around $2000/month just to survive without subsidies. But, to get subsidies, you have to make less than $800/month.

Pro-capitalists are the ones who do not want single-payer tax-funded health coverage. But this position really defeats their ideological basis, because as I mentioned, it's very, very hard to be self-employed and maintain coverage. Imagine the businesses that could start up if the owners didn't have to worry about this, if their previous payments into the system didn't evaporate when they left their jobs.

When I worked at Albany Medical College, they showed us a video called "It's A Dog's Life" that was supposed to make the employees want to provide a higher standard of care for their patients. The video shows a man who injures himself and goes to the doctor, while his wife takes the dog to the vet because she's limping. The dog gets instant care, loving attention and x-rays and meds right at the vet office. The man gets to wait around all day for a short, impersonal doctor visit and he gets sent to a busy, unfriendly hospital for x-rays. In the end, he finally gets care, but he has a headache now. Who do you think paid more? Who makes more money, the vet or the doctors?

The hospital tried to make it seem like it was the employees' attitudes that were the problem, but they are an impotent part of the system. Hospital employees who are jaded are that way because they can't deal with people telling them their sob stories anymore. And there are lots of sob stories now.

Democrats and Republicans tell us again and again that we have "the best" healthcare in the world. I suppose they mean we have the Mayo clinic and Mount Sinai hospital, and that it is more likely you will find the top specialist in the US than in any other country. In the average case, we do not have the best. Every time I go to the hospital for some reason, the person treating me is a lower-level professional than the time before. A long time ago, it was the MD with a residency in emergency medicine. Then it became the resident, and the MD reviewed the chart. Then it became the intern. Then the PA. Then the PA resident. Pretty soon, it seems, we're only going to see the cashier will provide the services and everyone else will be behind the scenes.

Where did these PAs come from? Why do we pay for a doctor but not get one? How come the length of a doctor's visit has gone from 15 minutes to 6 minutes, while the price has gone from $50 to $135?

I think somewhere in the continuing education courses and at seminars, doctors are being indoctrinated to raise their prices while shortening their time spent with patients. I know that, in the vet field, vets are being counseled to up-sell their services, schedule more patients, harmonize their price lists with other vets, and reduce the amount of actual care provided for each dollar spent.

Poet:
How about this shorter one?

MEDICARE FOR ALL!

Could even have some bumper stickers made up.

What prosperous, highly educated Americans living in Canada think of the Canadian and US health care systems

- a peer-reviewed study.

SiCKO actually shows that the Canadian System is good, the British system better, and France the most comprehensive of these. Cuba shows how a poor country, if organized along solidaristic lines, can provide top-notch health care for its citizens.

Simply the movie leaves the US no excuse for the sorry state of its health care system.

Moreover, the Canadian system has been under assault by the same people who want to move to more private care, thus playing the game of defunding the program, and then blaming it for its own shortfalls. Tommy Douglas warned against this, and as with every right, said that citizens must remain ever vigilant.

Moreover, in the 1980s, the Canadian government also caved into Pharmaceutical companies and upped the time for generics to enter the market, thus leading to growing drug costs. Thatcher also savaged the NHS, and neoliberal governments in Canada and the UK (Liberals and Labour) since then have not restored all the services that were cut, although they have at least promised to do more.

Regardless, any government that claimed outright that they would introduce private care would be turned out the door almost instantly. Universal and equal health care has become such a fundamental inalienable right.

In fact, American governments have been violating their own declaration of independence since day one by not guaranteeing universal health coverage which makes "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" for "all men who are created equal" possible.

Yes "Peacenow," Moore conveniently leaves out some very important info. His premise is still a good one though. But how can Moore romanticize Cuba's health care system without discussing Cuba's strict immigration policy. Why isn't Cuba welcoming all the poor Haitians, Mexicans, P. Ricians, etc? Gee, maybe Cuba is racist, anti-immigrant, and xenophobic. And by leaving this critical info out, Moore once again engaged in biased, lopsided, selective reporting!

Having lived in France, I can say that there is nothing like the care you get there. I had my own ignorant American moment when I kept asking "how much will this cost" when my preemie son was in a NICU struggling for his life. How disgusting was it that I was worried sick about how much it was going to cost? They couldn't even fathom why I would be asking and probably thought I was deranged. Every time I asked they would say, "I don't know -- why do you want to know that?" They could not imagine that I was thinking I would have to pay, because, duh, no one ever pays a cent when they go to the hospital. Ever. And I couldn't believe that I wasn't financially ruined for life until I walked out the door and never, ever saw a bill.

But I think the most important aspect about SiCKO is that it calls into question what kind of a society we are and what our fundamental values are. There is no sane argument for the system we have -- we pay many times more than other countries for less coverage and horrendous outcomes. The only argument "for" it is the one that lawabider puts forth -- the "Why should I have to pay for someone else" premise. I never quite know how to answer that as I don't even feel like I am of the same species as these people. How is it that so many of us would never question wanting for all what we wish for ourselves, while others are perfectly content to live their self-absorbed lives, completely absolving themselves of any responsiblity to the greater human family? Given the choice between an equitable system that provides for all and one where only the privileged elite or chronically healthy don't have to worry, they chose the too-expensive-shitty system on PRINCIPLE.

I have traveled some and know people from many countries, and I do not find this attitude really anywhere else. Even the most conservative in France do not question their universal healthcare system -perhaps due to a sense of 'noblesse-oblige' rather than some marxist or spiritual sensibility, but still, they see that we are somehow all connected.

I think I need to reconnect with my French roots. Parles vous Francais? Oui!

I only hope their immigration policy is as open as ours is. Better start researching!

Swim!Nicole!Swim! (not again.....lol)

Lawabider's kind are easy to catch in a difficult position if they just make the mistake of arguing that a completely privatized system is both generally beneficial for everyone while then also arguing that if you fall ill in an economically non-viable manner, it's just perfectly reasonable for you to die off, as this is what makes the system efficient and thus more competitive than any other system. That is, the whole efficiency part comes from weeding out the weak (thus the system being actually very brutal to a lot of people), and that you, regardless of your values, have no other choice but to participate if you don't want to be out-competed. It's this kind of Faustian deals you always get from the extreme-libertarian fringe.

Interestingly, this very argument from "hopelessness" makes a powerful case for simply not playing the game. It doesn't matter if lawabider wants to pay taxes for everyone's healthcare; it's about whether other people want to have anything to do with him, if his rules are the ones to be played by.

For any one interested, dponcy is a paid sceptic with matching funding for his efforts from Kaiser Permanente and the RNC. These people have no sense of morals.

I've heard the same sort of story that Lawabider tells... Years and years ago one of our family's yankee rellies had the same opinion, socialized health care was evil. Then the yanks husband had some health problem, he died, she went into bankruptcy. Never did find out if her opinion of health care had changed...

The part I find most fascinating is how people with excellent insurance coverage shoot down any mention of universal healthcare. Take for example my wife's grandmother: She has Medicare plus Tricare due to her husband retiring from the Army. When she goes for a visit to the doctor her cost is: $0 When she goes to the hospital her cost is : $0 Her presciptions cost $6 each. She gives the usual 'Commie plot' reason for not supporting healthcare for all. No wonder my good friend Steve seriously pondered going into the military. The reason he gave: To give his wife and children medical coverage.

I just saw the movie, and while most of its depiction of the Canadian system coincides with my own experience, there is one thing that Moore left out that I find troublesome. There is a serious shortage of doctors. I am lucky enough to have an excellent family doctor/GP who really cares about me, but she is very overworked, and she is in fact the exception to the rule. The problem, ironically, is doctors moving to the States to make more money. Moore could have used this to prove a point - that the moral bankruptcy of the U.S. system is even affecting Canada - but instead he went with his caricature of the country as a socialist utopia.

He's done this before - Bowling For Columbine ignored the complexities of the gun control issue in Canada, which is hardly the crime-free eden he depicted.