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When Gaza Brothers Turn Against Each Other
As a physician from Gaza, I have treated far too many Palestinians wounded by Israeli troops. Now a day has come that I thought I would never see. Throughout our 59-year struggle to obtain our freedom, we Palestinians debated strategy and tactics. Political factions competed for popular support. But never would I have believed that we would turn guns against each other. What brought us to this point? Hamas won free and fair elections in 2006, on a platform that promised clean and efficient government. But Israel and the West meddled in our democratically elected choice by imposing devastating economic sanctions on us. How would Americans feel if a foreign power expressed its dissatisfaction with your freely elected government in this way? Our economy and our livelihoods have been destroyed, reducing many of us to poverty. At last, we exploded with a desperation born of decades of oppression, lack of opportunity, and loss of hope. We brutalized each other over the crumbs of power. The shame is ours -- but the responsibility is shared between reckless Palestinians and external powers that turned the screws on our people.Israel may have physically removed its soldiers and settlers from Gaza in September 2005, but it still controls Gaza from the sea, air and land. Our borders are mostly closed according to the whim of the Israeli occupation, transforming Gaza into an enormous open-air prison for its 1.4 million people, half of whom are children.
Too many of these youngsters suffer from the stifling effects of political violence and hunger. Their future is dangerously circumscribed by the chaos and uncertainty that envelop us.
To thrive we need access to the sea and to commerce. Most importantly, our people must be imbued with some sense of hope.
Sanctions imposed after the election of Hamas made hard lives harder, but we must not forget that even under the "moderate" leadership of President Mahmoud Abbas we did not control trade in and out of Gaza.
"There is a seeming reflex," said United Nations peace envoy Alvaro de Soto in a leaked End of Mission report, "in any given situation where the [U.N.] is to take a position, to ask first how Israel or Washington will react rather than what is the right position to take." Washington's bias toward Israel is significantly responsible for the appalling situation in which we now find ourselves.
Yes, we Palestinians must accept blame for our perilous situation. However, Palestinian foreign minister Ziad Abu Amr has correctly declared, "If you have two brothers, put them in a cage and deprive them of basic and essential needs for life, they will fight." The fact that we would sink to this level is perhaps the surest sign of the terrible damage meted out to us over the years by dispossession and occupation.
When one is in a hole, it is imperative to stop digging. If we are to win our freedom, surely it will not be done with one brother digging the grave of another. The violence must stop. That is our first responsibility, as Palestinians, and we must meet it immediately. And the United States and the international community must end the sanctions that deprive us of our basic needs and our hope for a better future.
The Israeli leadership brandishes our current plight as evidence that we cannot govern ourselves, nor be trusted as "peace partners." White South Africans similarly claimed that black South Africans were incapable of self-governance. In the last years of apartheid, more than 250 blacks per month were killed in black-on-black violence.
Yet decency and equality eventually prevailed in South Africa. Apartheid was vanquished and ANC vs. Inkatha violence soon stopped. And the world learned that black-on-black violence was an outgrowth of apartheid -- not an indication that apartheid needed to continue because black South Africans were incapable of self-rule and undeserving of rights. We, too, have the right to be free. But we must first free ourselves from fighting over the scraps of power.
And we must raise our aspirations beyond accepting Bantustans in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The fighting in Gaza makes clear that a cordoned-off Gaza Bantustan is no solution. Like oppressed people everywhere, we yearn for our rights. Out of this ugly period, we must promote a new vision of equality for all people living on this land, regardless of race or religion.
Mona El-Farra is a physician and human-rights advocate in the Gaza Strip.
© 2007 Star Tribune. All rights reserved.
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65 Comments so far
Show Allsince this land was, quite literally, taken from one people, held for awhile and given back to another people.
CORRECTION:
The "palestinians" did not have their land taken away by Europeans to give to the Jews. That's a ridiculous assertion. The Turks ruled the arab lands for centuries before the English took it away from them. The English took it away from the Turks because the Turks had sided with the Germans in WW1. The issue of whether to divide Palestine into two countries would never had been an issue, if there weren't Jews living there in the first place.
gyptian June 23rd, 2007 10:25 pm
"wow vets … since the countries you mentioned are so concerned about jewish people maybe they can accomodate all the israelis in their countries and the Palestinians can get their country back !! You also seem to have a really bad habit of twisting and manipulating what people say to fit your decrepit and putrid world view. Pull your head out of that orifice vets … youve been there too long !"
Here is my reply.
wow gyptian … since the ARAB countries you mentioned are so concerned about Palestinian people maybe they can accomodate all the Palestinians in their countries and the Jews can get their country back !! You also seem to have a really bad habit of twisting and manipulating HISTORY to fit your decrepit and putrid world view. Pull your head out of that Nazi propaganda gyptian … youve been there too long !"
B.T.W - This is a sarcastic reply. Unlike gyptian, I don't want to see anyone expelled or killed.
gyptian - I have another test for you, to see if your comments are racists.
Let's replace the word Israel and Jew with the word Palestinian, and we'll see what comes up.
How would you describe someone who say the following:
- I really felt awful last night. I had a Palestinian Nakba of a headache.
- Palestine is the greatest violator of U.N resolutions in the history of the U.N. (No need to provide any prove or even a single example).
- All the Hamas voters and the Fatach Voters and all the Palestinians who support terror (Which makes 80% of all Palestinians) should be shot by the Palestinian liberals.
- Palestinians have no right for a Palestinian state. They are Arabs, and as such they should all go back to Arabia.
Would you agree that a person who talk like this is a racist?
Well, guess what. This is a mirror image of yourself gyptian.
gyptian June 22nd, 2007 1:09 pm "The plain truth is that israelis seem to treat the Palestinians in exactly the same way the germans treated them,..."
Is it realy the "true" that the Nazi holocaust is "exactly" as the Israeli Palestinian conflict?
gyptian June 22nd, 2007 1:09 pm - "Israel has been the greatest violator of U.N. resolutions in the history of the U.N."
I have asked you earlyer to reveal to us how you got that conclusion. Naming one UN resolution that Israel violated would be a good start. But I guess you prefer to keep it a secret, and us in the dark.
gyptian June 23rd, 2007 10:25 pm "...true liberal jewish people should basically take up arms and shoot the entire israeli military, the likud, the settlers and the radical right wing jews … which pretty much sums up 80% of Israelis !!"
Should this be understood differently than a call for a Genocide of 6 million people? (80% of Israeli) It that what you call the ture meaning of liberalizm?
Another question: Have you ever met a Settler? Have you ever met a Likud voter? Have you ever met any of the people you condemn to death?
Did you knew that most of these settlers, become settlers just because they wanted to improve their quality of life? Surly not a crime punishable by death. Though my suspition is that you don't care about crimes commited. You just want to see them dead because they belong to a specific ethnic group. A true liberal.
In the Past, you have also rejected the idea that Jews have the right for self determination.
This statement falls under the definition of antisemitism, according to the The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia. (And EU body, that had nothing to do with Jews, or Israel)
In case you don't know, the EU is a union of European countries that consists of 497,000,000 people. So it should not be dismissed.
gyptian, why do you hate Jews and Israelis that much?
Well im sorry i hurt your sensibility middelroad ...
What a bunch of crock. If you occupy my land i would want you dead as well. Thats just how we are wired. Being 'liberal' has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Bill Clinton is considered liberal and so are some of the most conservative fucks i know !! Labels are meaningless.
Israel needs to accomodate Palestinian demands and stick to the real Oslo accords if nothing else. They cannot put more settlers in the West Bank and Gaza. The Palestinians need to have the 'right of return'. They also need a real country and not a prison or jigsaw puzzled, check=pointed land mass thats pockmarked with israeli soldiers at every level. Irrespectiuve who shoots rockets real dialogue will only happen when there is commitment from israel as they hold all the cards.
Gyptian,
Plugging different words into what someone else says is, for lack of a better term, a waste of electrons. It means nothing. The majority of Israelis support their army, including the true liberals. There is nothing liberal about the destruction of Israel and the deaths of millions of Jews, which is exactly what would happen if Hamas or Fatah had any say in things.
"The violence must stop. That is our first responsibility, as Palestinians, and we must meet it immediately. And the United States and the international community must end the sanctions that deprive us of our basic needs and our hope for a better future."
Correct. The violence must stop. Violence against against each other AND violence against Israel. Recognize Israel's right to exist. Stop firing rockets at the Negev. Stop suicide bombings. Renounce the Right of Return. Remove the references to destroying Israel from the Hamas charter. Accept in good faith the Oslo accords. If you do, then you get aid, and remember it is a gift, not an obligation.
The West Bank is going to do this and it will get aid but I think Gaza and Hamas don't have the courage to make peace. I have a feeling you are going to be treating bullet wounds for a long time.
Israel wont recognize Palestine's right to exist. Israel kills far more palestinians than vice versa.
If jews who have lived outside Israel for 1000 years have a right to return--then so do arabs who have been living outside for 50 years.
Fair is fair.
A artificially created ethinic majority state is not.
Israel needs to stop using violence and come to the peace table as a true partner. It wont though--look how it devastated Lebanon jsut to get back two soldiers. Which it couldnt do.
Israel has officially recognized that there has to be a Palestinian state on the West Bank and Gaza so your first point is meaningless.
Jews were not gone for 1000 years. There were Jews there all the time and many MANY more came from Europe to join them. For the most part they bought their land legally from their Arab neighbors. They didn't insist on lands that there ancestors held being returned to them.
When the war came in 1948, Israel took some of that Palestinian land and then again in 1967 in conquest against an enemy that was working to destroy them. War is over. Fair is fair.
Hamas is regular accused of wanting to eliminate Israel because it has so far refused to recognize it.
What it actually says when refusing recognition is that it will recognize Israel and renounce violence AS SOON AS ISRAEL WILL DO THE SAME. This sounds perfectly reasonable to me.
The war is hardly over, and nothing is fair about it. Please check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzNPZf-5aO4
Goose2 - Can you tell me when Israel has ever recognized the right of the State of Palestine to exist? As in an actual citation? Because I am Jewish, I've traveled extensively throughout Israel and the West Bank and although Israeli governments over the years have given lip service to "a Palestinian State" there has never been any official acknowledgement of the right of Palestine to exist and there are members of the government who work every day to prevent this. So, again, a citation to the official recognition would be nice, although I'm sure it doesn't exist...
There were a handful of Sephardi Jews that lived in the Middle East since the beginning of the Diaspora and there may have indeed been a handful of European Jews who came before the British Mandate of Palestine - but most European Jews and most Sephardi Jews did not come to Israel until after the British Mandate was formed and after the foundation of Israel in 1948.
When the war came in 1948, Israel ended up with more territory than originally planned - great. There can be no question of fairness in this situation, however. Colonial powers granted land that they had occupied to other Europeans. Don't get me wrong - I'm Jewish and I have as much stake in the existence of Israel as the next Jew, but, in the real world of real people, this in nowhere near fair, since this land was, quite literally, taken from one people, held for awhile and given back to another people. Necessary for survival? Yes. Completely legal (by the laws of the day)? Yes. Fair? Not on your life.
Fast forward to 1967 and Israel occupied the West Bank. Rules and laws had changed since the forties as a direct result of the War that allowed the slaughter of six million of us (and others, of course). Israel was allowed to join the UN and she agreed to obey their laws. By their laws (4th Geneva Convention), land that you capture during wartime, unlike during days of old, is not actually yours to keep. You are required to give it back, allow people to return to their homes, not transfer your population to the occupied area, etc, etc. Israel's actions are not only unfair, they are illegal under the laws they acknowledged nearly two decades previously.
And more arguments or do you want to just spout some more Likud mythology?
Goose2 - Also, in regards to your first post:
Palestinians have no obligation to stop resisting an illegal occupation by whatever means they possessed. In fact, they are allowed to do just that under the same laws I mentioned above. Suicide bombings and rockets attacks are loathsome means, but after the last forty years are, quite literally, the only means of armed resistance left to them.
Don't misunderstand me. I am not going to excuse the actions of suicide bombers. But I am also not going to excuse or defend the actions of the Israeli military that leads to the deaths of Palestinian civilians at a current rate of about 4-to-1 in comparison to Israeli deaths. I will not make the moral fallacy of so many Israelis and Israeli supporters of claiming, implicitly or otherwise, that Jewish lives are worth more than Palestinian lives. And please spare me the argument that Israel is "defending itself" when it bulldozes homes with people in them (usually the very old and very young who cannot get out fast enough), sends rockets into crowded civilian areas, opens fire on peaceful crowds of protesters with "rubber" bullets that can still cause death and damage.
I love Israel and I weep for what it has become. Your callousness and inability to see the author's main point make me fervently hope you're not one more self-righteous member of the tribe who can't see past his own suffering to the suffering being created in his name.
You "progressives" SICKEN me. Supporting Palestinian suicide bomings and violence? I cannot put to words how disgusting you are. Ever hear of Ghandi? Martin Luther King Junior? The Palestinians have been using violence for 40 years and look what it got them. They are no closer to a state than they were back in 1967. In fact, they are sliding backwards; more every day.
Britian occupied India and it was non violence that got them out of there. Martin Luther King led a full revolution in the US with non violence.
You are not progressive at all if you support violence. Your just as wrong as the neocons.
I'm not sure if its me you're responding to, but have you not actually read anything we've said on this issue? Nobody supports suicide bombings, but I don't support the indiscriminate bloodshed carried out in my name either and I am sick of Palestine violence bad, Israeli violence okay. This is a completely false dichotomy and I refuse to make Israeli (aka Jewish) lives more important that Palestinian lives (a progressive value, imo).
Also, I believe in the rule of international law (another progressive value) and Israel has ignored it for forty years, which has led directly to the situation today.
Call me whatever you want (self-hating Jew is always a good one), but today, in the present, Israel is the aggressor and occupier and kills Palestinians approximately four times more frequently that Palestinians kill Israelis. Israel is the only party with the power to end this conflict besides the US and they (the Israeli government) continue to choose violent oppression over the possibility of giving back land that doesn't belong to us (actual Jews and Israelis). I can't possibly see how defending an apartheid state, even one I love very dearly, is a progressive value any more than "supporting" suicide bombers (which I stated unequivocally I wasn't doing).
"What it actually says when refusing recognition is that it will recognize Israel and renounce violence AS SOON AS ISRAEL WILL DO THE SAME. This sounds perfectly reasonable to me."
Actually, that is not what they are saying. The third paragraph of the Hamas charter states, "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
You can find it in EVERY copy of their charter. It is really plain and there is no pussy-footing around that one. There is mention of negotiation or renunciation of voilence when Israel does the same. Hamas is organized to reclaim Palestine for Palestinians and to eliminate ANY Jewish state in the Middle East.
Do some research or believe what the Palestinian Left propaganda machine tells you.
Goose, show me where, officially, that Israel recognizes the state of Palestine? And also show me where are the official borders of Israel?
Please don't excuse Israel's act of terrorism, the most obscene one that was televised, is the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Beirut.
Ever heard of Eretz Israel?
This article and some of the comments helped me understand a little better what is and has been happening in the Israeli/Palestine conflict. God bless the good doctor and the children of Gaza. But if the problems are ever going to cease, both sides have to stop shooting! Put away the guns, unstrap the bombs, and sit down at the table and resolve your God-damned differences! As long as the killing continues, there can be no hope for peace, and I for one have no desire to pander to the murderers on either side.
My impression over my lifetime (and I am no longer young) is that armed conflict is a way of life in the middle east, more so than in most other regions of the world. Yes, America and a host of other nations over the centuries have done things to the region that were not right and have inflamed passions, but that is no excuse for continuing conflicts that cause the destruction of the innocent lives of your own people. My guess is that even without interference from outside interests, conflict would continue between factions in the middle east over power, resources, territory, and religious sectarianism. For that reason, the situation seems hopeless.
No matter how I look at it, I have to believe that the reason this is so is because of the particular form of religious belief called Jihad inherent in the practice of radical Islam. As long as anyone in this old world thinks that other people deserve to die because they do not agree with a particular religious doctrine, we are in trouble. Fundamentalist Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe that their version of religion is correct, and that all others who reject thier religion will be damned and destroyed. The primary difference is that the fundamentalist believers of Islam, at least some of them (far more than the so-called "moderate" Muslims would have us believe), believe that they are compelled to do the killing themselves, in the name of Allah. Fundamentalist Christians and Jews are still mainly waiting for Jesus and/or the Messiah to come and do the killing for them. This is not entirely true of course. Some "Christians", even some in high places, believe that we are living in the "end times" and are doing everything they can to bring about Armegeddon. How else can you explain the support by the religious right in America for the Iraq war? Could anything be more un-Christlike than support for war and the killing of innocent children? God help us all!
The people of the middle east have the resources and capacity to transform the region into one of the most prosperous and progressive regions in the world. Some parts of the region are using thier ample resources to do just that. But as long as these rediculous conflicts continue, and as long as religeous extremism flourishes, the people will continue to suffer.
I agree with the Doctor that the shooting must stop. She may want to reconsider her South African example of murders going down after oppression stops however. According to Interpol, the murder rate in South Africa was 8 per 100,000 in 1975 (during apartheid) it had grown to 63 per 100,000 by 2003.
breehmichael -
Palestinians have no obligation to stop resisting. I agree. At the same time, I don't think the US has any obligation to fund them either and CERTAINLY not Hamas or a Hamas led government.
As for the rate of killings, I think that if there is no peace, there will be a wall to separate the Palestinians and the Israelis and that at that point, as it already has along the areas it has been completed, the violence will drop dramatically. I think that is good.
I am not a member of your tribe. FWIW, my ancestors had a pretty good go at your ancestors so no need for you to weep for me.
breehmichael
You contend:
1. Israeli has never officially supported a Palestinian State.
* "Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere." - from the Middle East Road Map as agreed to by Israeli presidents Sharon, Abbas and Bush. Phase I April 2003.
* "Israel has not changed its position; Israel is for peace with the Palestinians according to the Roadmap. Israel stands for a two state solution. " Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. March 18, 2007 in a document entitled "The State of Israel's policy towards the Palestinian government"
* "In that case we will have to move forward, even without a Palestinian partner, in order to separate from the Palestinians, to pull out from areas in the West Bank, to realign Israeli settlements partly into the settlement blocs and partly into other parts of the state of Israel, and to leave a very large part of the territories, a contiguous part of the territories, for a Palestinian state to be created by the Palestinians." Ehud Olmert 12 June 2006 London press conference with Tony Blair.
2. Most Israelis came to the Middle East after the 1948 war.
In 1948 before the war began, the Jewish population of Palestine was about 30%. For reference, California in 2005 was about 35% hispanic according to US Census data.
Population of Jews in Palestine
Date % of population
1914 7.585%
1922 11.141%
1931 16.897%
1941 29.902%
1945 30.% (estimate)
1950 50.650%
3. Palestinian land was take unfairly. "...in the real world of real people, this in nowhere near fair, since this land was, quite literally, taken from one people, held for awhile and given back to another people. Necessary for survival? Yes. Completely legal (by the laws of the day)? Yes. Fair? Not on your life."
We disagree. Palestinians had the opportunity to stay in many cases and were forced out at gunpoint in others. The Arabs did attack the Jews in 1948 remember so this was their war, not the Israeli's. During the first week of Israel's existence, May 14th to May 21st, it was invaded by 25,000 soldiers from Iraq, Syria, Egypt and Lebanon (it appears Lebanon actually had an army at that time...) By October, there were 55,000 foreign Arab soldiers in Israel trying to wipe it into the sea and Israel had no organized military till the day they announced their Independence.
Israel, the US AND the USSR all proclaimed that this invasion was illegal. The secretary of the UN, Trygve Lie stated this was, "the first armed aggression which the world had seen since the end of the [Second World] War."
4. Re: Occupied territories, "Israel's actions are not only unfair, they are illegal under the laws they acknowledged nearly two decades previously."
Absolutely correct. Israel should abandon the settlements on the West Bank. Full stop. I agree 100%. Status of Jerusalem was diuscussed in the Oslo agreements and Camp David meeting of 2000. There was no movement on that issue at those conferences. This issue obviously needs international mediation. The Golan should be returned to Syria as part of a general peace settlement.
Sooooo... Israel HAS stated publically it supports the two state solution with a Palestinian state side by side of Israel. Palestine had a VERY large Jewish population
before the 1948 war. The Arabs invaded Israel causing the Palestinians to leave or in some cases be forced out. Israel is occupying the West Bank Illega
"Goose, show me where, officially, that Israel recognizes the state of Palestine?"
See my posting above with quotes. This is support for a Palestinian state when it becomes independent.
"And also show me where are the official borders of Israel?"
1967 Green Line.
"Please don't excuse Israel's act of terrorism, the most obscene one that was televised, is the indiscriminate bombing of civilians in Beirut."
I don't call that terrorism. The Arabs military units and guerillas and freedom fighters and so on all have offies and positions in civilian areas. I won't cry a tear for any civilian killed as their soldiers cower among them.
"Ever heard of Eretz Israel?"
Yes.
Goose, Apparently the 1967 greenline is made of rubber band as it is ever expanding.
BTW, what Bush says about anything, especially with regards to israel, means squat. And no, no Isreali leaders have mentioned any recognition of Palestine in writing. Words means nothing without a written record.
And just because you use 'civilized' weapons to kill does not mean it is not an act of terrorism. If the Palestinians have access to the same weapons, there would be no suicide bombing. And you apparently missed the part where Red Cross and amnesty international debunked the myth of insurgents hiding in civilian areas.
Siince you have heard of eretz Israel, you must know that the Isrealis will never be satisfied with Palestine only. hence their illegal expansion of settlements on stolen lands in occupied territory. some of their radical citizens (terrorists) claims that half of Saudi Arabia belongs to them, and I am willing to bet it is the half that has the most oil.
Goose, a Palistinian "state" is NOT a collection of non contiguous concentration camps, as exists today, where another country controls even the borders to other countries.
also, see Kikud Party Policy,,this from their website:
Declaration of a Palestinian State
"A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration. "
Goose2, regarding your first post, can I ask you to consider how your demands would sound if they were turned around, and posed to the Israeli government:
The violence must stop. Recognize Palestine's right to exist (i.e. stop building settlements, stealing water, maintaining checkpoints, destroying property, and kidnapping/murdering its citizens). Stop the military incursions. Stop the aerial bombings. Renounce Zionism. Accept in good faith the Oslo accords. If you do, then you get normalization with the Arabs, and remember this must be earned through your responsible behavior.
Do you feel anger when you read this? And feeling that anger, do you begin to realize how condescending this formulation is, how pointlessly dogmatic, and - when directed at Palestinians - how utterly disconnected it is with their unbearable trauma?
I've spent time in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, and I know there is a path to peace. But ultimately, each side will need to understand the other in terms of the other's suffering. I ask you to confront the fact that the Palestinians' grief is as real as yours.
Palestinians... When you will take responsibility for your problems instead of repeatedly blaming others (Israel usually), you may finally get a life.
Yasser Arafat kept the billions to himself because he knew that "deprived Palestinians" sells better than "well adjusted Palestinians."
There are many solutions to the problems: Muslim and Hindu separated and left their homes to create two states: Pakistan and India. They did not cry and cry and cry for what could have been... They just found constructive solutions.
You blame Israel for not recognizing a Palestinian state?? What about Hamas rejecting the right of Israel to exist?? Israel have multiple times extended their arms for peace... As long as Iran is behind you, this will never work and you will be their puppet, just like in Lebanon.
Time to mature Palestinians, enough of this victim mentality and silly pride. It doesn't get you anywhere.
There are solutions; when you'll stop playing the rebellious teenager game, progress will be possible and two nations will thrive side to side.
Peter - "Do you feel anger when you read this? And feeling that anger, do you begin to realize how condescending this formulation is, how pointlessly dogmatic, and - when directed at Palestinians - how utterly disconnected it is with their unbearable trauma?"
No. I laugh. It makes no sense when applied to Israel. None what so ever.
Palestine needs to stop the violence, renounce terror, abandon the Right of Return, and recognize Israel by changing the charter. Otherwise Israel should finish the wall. The total separation of the states is possible and will allow each to grow their own way.
Wrong CanuckChuck. Palestine is two contigious areas, West Bank and Gaza. This can work fine as a state. They do need to control their border though. It is not currently a non-contigous area of "concentration camps". Nice try though. Good argument if it were true but it isn't.
Smells like sophistry to me.
"A unilateral Palestinian declaration of the establishment of a Palestinian state will constitute a fundamental and substantive violation of the agreements with the State of Israel and the scuttling of the Oslo and Wye accords. The government will adopt immediate stringent measures in the event of such a declaration. "
I guess you read this because you quote it. It clearly means that if Palestine declares itself an independent country before the issues they agreed to resolve in the Oslo and Wye. That does NOT mean Israel doesn't support a Palestinian state but that they don't want a terrorist Palestinian state next door.
"BTW, what Bush says about anything, especially with regards to israel, means squat. And no, no Isreali leaders have mentioned any recognition of Palestine in writing. Words means nothing without a written record. "
Hello. Those were written in every case. Did you not read them?
Also the Green Line hasn't changed a bit. That is where the border ought to be. If there is peace, then that may be possible, but if not then the border is the greenline and the wall is inside Palestinian territory. They can try to tear it down if they like.
I think the situation is begging for peaceful resistance. Would there have been this much death if Gandhi like tactics had been tried years ago?
Could Israel have killed this many non violent people? With the Internet and instant communication would the world stand for slaughter of peaceful people? Would the soldiers just kill and kill when they are in no danger?
shakker clearly you havent been listening or tuning in to whats happening in the middle east for the last 30 yrs !!
Yes Israel will kill more Palestinians and will continue to do so. Even a single stone thrown by a Palestinian kid will be spun into a 'terrorist' incident and the killing will continue as it is today.
I dont think a single person in the world believes that gandhian tactics will help the Palestians resolve their issues.
You keep blaming everybody for the stupidity and false-consciousnss of palestinians. The fact is palestinians have spent a lifetime nurturing a culture of violence and barbarism. Now you are reaping the fruits. Arab/ palestinians are and incapable of building a society on the basis of rule of law and civility. A causal look at the region confirm this. The only countries with a modicum of stability are those under totalitarian dictatorship. The only contribution the arab world (and this has to be distinguished from the muslim world) is making to the contemporary civilisation is the abduction of journalists, the public slaughter of innocent people, the subjugation of women, the dehumanisation of black african immigrants...
As a black african muslim, I hope the muslim world would open its eyes to the immoral hoax you (arabs)have been pulling all these years - that you are fighting for Islam. If this was the case, how come the arab world is silent about the killing of muslims in Darfur or the massacre of tens of thousands by Saddam, the syrians...need I go on.
Its my hope that someday, we africans will wake up and start treating arabs the same way they have treated us for centuries. DISPOSSES AND DEPORT ALL ARABS SOUTH OF THE SAHARA!!! Insh Allah.
Goose2, you indicated that you view the "total separation" of the states as a positive outcome. I see that as a potentially hopeful sign. "Total separation" implies that Israel no longer occupies Palestine, builds settlements there, maintains checkpoints, bulldozes homes, or collects (and holds) taxes on behalf of the Palestinian Authority. The Palestinians have, after all, been yearning for that sort of freedom for generations.
"A causal look at the region confirm this"
manan .. a casual look at africa will pretty much bring up the same conclusion as you have against the 'arabs'. The issues are far deeper than that. Maybe we should examine the issue of Africans killing Africans or white people killing white people !
the Palestinian issue is about disposession of their land by 'Israel' and has nothing to do with Arab civilization which by the way was very advanced in its time and pretty much 'cultured' Europe at one time.
Mona El-Farra - "Throughout our 59-year struggle to obtain our freedom..."
59 years? That means you claim that the Palestinian struggle for freedom started in 2007 - 59 = 1948?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall that between the years 1948 and 1967 the Palestinians fought for freedom against the Egyptian occupation of Gaza, and the Jordanian occupation of the W.B.
Sadly, this leads me to believe that according to Mona, if Israel will withdraw to pre - 1967 borders, the struggle for "freedom" against the Jewish state will NOT end.
As history and Mona suggest, the Palestinians don't fight for the idea of a free Palestinians state (A goal that could have been archived peacefully in 1937, 1947, and 2000) Their struggle is actually against the idea of a free Jewish state.
"Their struggle is actually against the idea of a free Jewish state."
So the landless and desperately poor Palestinians are so depraved that they would rather see Israel not exist than have their basic needs met ? Your twisted logic as usual is meaningless. The so called 'peace' offers that were thrust down Palestinian throats were nothing more than scraps thrown to dogs.
My dear friend gyptian,
The Palestinians are landless and desperate and poor. They have also suffered much more than Israelis. Militarily - they are the underdog.
Most of the Palestinians I spoke with, only wants safety, and a good job so they could provide for their families.
However, for the Palestinian leadership, destroying Israel was ALWAYS more important than the life, welfare and freedom of their own people.
They have a few opportunities in history to peacefully create a Palestinian state along side Israel. They have rejected all these opportunities, and chose war instead.
This is what they could have in 1937
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_peel.php
This is the offer they rejected in 1947
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
And this is what they dismissed in 2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Also - See what is the Hamas is doing in Gaza today. Surly, even you can see that their ideology of destroying Israel is far more important to the Hamas than to feed their own people.
vets, consider the situation. Palestine had been the center of the Crusader invasions in the 1200s. There was a lot of residual feeling as a result - rather akin to the residual feelings of the Irish towards the English as a result of the various dispossessions, the Potato Famine, etc.
In swan the Brits in 1917, inform the Arab population that they've taken over the country, and that it is going to be turned over to a set of foreigners, and they are going to be kicked out as a result. So they were supposed to just sit back and take it?
And don't try that "St Louis" guilt-trip on me - I know about that, and I think it shameful that the British and American Jews concentrated on breaking down the resistance of the British Empire to increased Jewish immigration to Palestine, when for the same effort, they could have saved so many more lives, by increasing immigration limits to their own countries. But apparently they felt the German and Eastern European Jews were "untouchable". I find that beyond contempt.
As far as the Palestinian Arabs leaving what later became Eretz Yisrael, Benny Morris' books have become authoritative. The exodus really took off after the massacre at Deir Yassin - 125 or so, according to an authoritative Bir Zeit University study on the massacre. The Deir Yassin massacre took place on the 9th of April, 1948, and the Israeli Declaration of Independence took place on the 14th of May, 1948. But then, Lod and Ramlah had already been "ethnically cleansed":
http://www.nakbainhebrew.org/index.php?id=364
"People talk about the 'War of Liberation.' Liberation from whom? Liberation from discovering Palestinian people in their homeland. It was done through expulsion. The Palestinians did not leave of their own will. Some of them fled, some of them were simply expelled. The case of Lod is a clear and special case, because there was a message that was written by Rabin in a 'black book.' And also a message in a book edited by Avraham Sela, a professor at Hebrew University, on the occupation of Lod. The history of the Hagana talks about Lod. Meaning, there is a clear written message that there was an expulsion and there was a massacre, but they are always making excuses. The case of Lod repeated itself in tens of places in other cities and villages. When Lod was occupied in July 1948 by the IDF there was a political decision to drive out its residents."
Rather like the hateful way some of my ancestors were cleared out of Spain. If it was criminal for the Spanish Crown to ethnically cleanse Spain and expel the Jews and Muslims, then it was criminal for the haGanah, and the LEHI and the ETZEL to ethnically cleanse Palestine and expel the Arabs. You can't have it both ways, and if so, the Arabs have the Right of Return.
breehmichael:
You are a person of LIGHT. I recognised that when you so beautifully explained to me what your Reform Judaism rabbis had taught you, when several days ago when I recounted Jewish history from the time of Joseph's settlement in Egypt till today. You are wasting your time arguing against these AIPAC fundamentalists like Goose2 and others. They manufacture history to justify the genocide of the Palestinians. It (Goose2) and like trolls have invaded this web-site to drive away all compassionate humanists like yourself and many others who write on CD.
They forget Rachel Corrie, that immensely compassionate person, who reached the highest station in the LIGHT for her selfless actions, and who, at the Court of Osiris, was rewarded with a star in her name that glitters in the Northern skies. Only people who believe in the LIGHT know this.
They have not ever read an unbiased history of the ME. And even if they do not read Arab or Muslim historians because of their extreme Islamphobia, they should read at least read Edward Said, Chomsky and Norman Finkelstein 9 whose mother died in the Holocaust). Probably this is too much to ask of monsters from the DARKNESS (the first time Goose2 appeared on this site, it (becuase it is not human, and so "it"), said that Palestinians should be killed often and in large numbers.
There is another monstrous poster here, "capt.cleveriant" who starts by saying that it has learnt of the ME from this article and the posts here, but then proceeds to make sweeping Islamophobic generalizations about the proclivities of Muslims and Arabs to violence. This is standard judeo-christo-fascist dogma based on which the nuclear war aginst Iran and the Muslim world as whole is being prepared. Of course, conveniently misplaced from memory, like the amnesia outbreaks in Alberto Gonzales' Office, are the following facts:
1. WWI - - a totally Europen conflict among the world's "civilized" nations, that killed nearly 50 million people.
2. WWII - - another Euro- American white people's conflict (the Japanese considered themselves "Western" and followers of European and American ways of life) that killed another 50 million.
3. Hitler was a European. His Gestapo,SS, wehrmacht and whatever else was staffed by Germans and other Europeans _ - 10 million of them. His major sympathisers such as the Vichy regime in France and the Catholic Pope were European
4. Prior to 1948, there were no cases in recorded Palestinian history since the Roman times - - 2000 years - -of a culture of suicide bombers, soldiers or whatever engaged in mass killing of even a millionth the scale of the the death and destruction that the "civilised" white peoples of America and Europe wrought in the first half of the 20th century alone.
5. The Palestinians have always been a docile people, living peacefully as shepards, fruit growers and the like for thousands of years. They are not war like at all, and that is precisely why Muslim armies never had "Palestinian" soldiers. If one were to suggest that to the Ottoman Turks, or Salladin (properly Salahuddin), they would laugh until they fell off their chairs.
6. The so called UN at the time when Israel was created in 1948 by fiat on League of Nations trust property of the defunct Ottoman Empire, trusted into British colonial care, consisted mostly of European colonial powers, because most of the coloured world world were colonies. Thus a heinous European crime - - the Holocaust of 6 million innocent Jews - - was settled on the backs of an innocent, colonised people - - the Palestinians. It is hard to swallow the truth, but that is the truth, and all of it is available at the United Nations website. Gandhi opposed the creation. Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, and Bishop Tutu have condemned the atrocious treatment of Palestinians by the Israelis. All major international legal forums under the UN charter have declared the separation wall illegal and immoral.
As I have said before on this site, I follow the Ancient Egyptian monotheism of the LIGHT of which all the three so called "Abrahamic" religions are derivative in the sense of their cosmologies of LIGHT. And Moses was an Egyptian high priest of Akhenaten's (Tutan Khamun's father) One God religion, who escaped from the military Pharoah Horem Hab who had set about destroying that reliogion and all its followers (Egyptians, Libyans, Hebrews, Canaanites Arabs and others from RETHENU). At that time all these were followers of Moses, or more properly Habu Moshe (Egyptian for one who is "born of the Nile("hapi")). There were no "Jews" as such in the Exodus, a concept that was formulated by Ezekial in Babylonian captivity about 500 BC.
However, all the three "Abrahamic" religions - - Judaism, Christianity (at least the original, true Syriac version) and Islam have spawned such vile fundamenatlisms, away from the civilzing atmospheres of Egypt or Hellenism, typically by self- perpetuating, self-serving priesthoods of Semitic women-hating, patriarchial beliefs and war loving "eye for eye" tribal vengeance creeds, that whatever is happening today in the ME is to be laid squarely at their feet.
Goose2 and his ilk who are spinning such hateful evil of death, land grabbing, misanthropic BS in their posts above, that it is clear they belong to Jewish fundamntalism. Whereas breehmichael and other Jews on the forefront of the struggles for human rights of the oppressed represent the true monotheism of LIGHT.
However, I hope that the great traditions of Jewish insistence upon justice, which today are found only among Reform Judaism, and which spring from the ancient Egyptian principle of Ma'at - compassion, truth, justice and social order - - as taught to his flock by Moses, will hold sway and prevent a world wide nuclear war.
'nuf said.
Aymon
I made a mistake in the above post. I meant to say that Norman Finkelstein's mother SURVIVED the holocaust, not die in it.
since the other typos are obvious and what I meant to say is also obvious, I will leave them as they are. I do not want to make this post long.
In the service of Ma'at
Kwaheri
Aymon
I see peaceful resolution has been rejected by the responses after I suggested it. The teams have joined sides and are attacking each other. There is only way violence will solve this is if all of one or both sides is killed.
I see from the posts above that the general idea is that the jews are usurpers in a land of muslims. That Isreal is a state that only exists because the "West" stole the land of the Palestinians. And that the only "fair" outcome is if the 7 million Jewish citizens of Israel board ships and sail to parts unknown.
With thinking like this, I despair of any rational compromise.
DuraMater - "...the Brits in 1917, inform the Arab population that they've taken over the country, and that it is going to be turned over to a set of foreigners, and they are going to be kicked out as a result"
Two mistakes:
1. No one was intended to be kicked out. Not even a single Palestinian. The kicking out started as a direct result of the violence against Jews initiated by the Palestinians leadership after they rejected UN resolution 181.
Until 1947 all the land that was owned by Jews was purchased in good money, or was originally belong to Jews (Jews lived in Canaan constantly, Even before Zionism.)
2. Jews were not foreigners. They were a nation which was kicked out of Palestine in 135AD by the Romans.
Surly you must agree that in the first century AD, the majority of the population of Canaan were Jewish, and not Palestinian.
DuraMater - "And don't try that "St Louis" guilt-trip on me" - I won't. I already know couldn't care less if the lives of millions would have been saved...
DuraMater - "As far as the Palestinian Arabs leaving what later became Eretz Yisrael, Benny Morris' books have become authoritative. The exodus really took off after the massacre at Deir Yassin - 125 or so"
I know about Deir Yassin, I also respect Benny Morris who did a good job in research. They were other massacare as well in that war. Deir Yassin is only one of them. Accordng to some Historians, the total number of Palestinians who were massacare during Israel's war of independance was above 1000. Which is similar more or less to the massacares done against Jews in that same war.
DuraMater -"the Arabs have the Right of Return"
Agreed, and so does the Greek, the Tusrkish, Pakistanies, Indians, German, and Yes, even the Jews. I hope you agree that all 146 million 20st century refugees have a right of return, and not just the 700,000 Palestinians.
aymon "The Palestinians have always been a docile people, living peacefully as shepards, fruit growers and the like for thousands of years. They are not war like at all, and that is precisely why Muslim armies never had "Palestinian" soldiers. If one were to suggest that to the Ottoman Turks, or Salladin (properly Salahuddin), they would laugh until they fell off their chairs."
I advise you to learn some history, About how the Palestinian leader Haj Amin al Husayni, a Nazi war criminal, wanted for war crimes in Yeguslavia, planed the extermination of the Palestinian Jews.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amin_al-Husayni
I wish the Palestinian leadership were like Salladin, who was honorable, respected muslim leader, who always kept his word, and even though he fought the crussaders kindgom, he always respected life and try to limit loses of life (Even of his own enemies).
aymon "the Holocaust of 6 million innocent Jews - - was settled on the backs of an innocent, colonised people - - the Palestinians"
Learn about Amin Al Husayni before you call the Palestinian leadership innocent in taking part of the Holocaust.
God Bless Mona AL Farra. I had the privilege of meeting her in Washington on June 10 this year for the anti occupation March. She is truly a picture of incredible courage !
I'm sorry, I have to ask...
Why does a "terrorist group" have a charter?
You guys can keep fighting back and forth. You are not going to change each others mind. Is there peanut butter in my chocolate or chocolate in your peanut butter. Less filling tastes great, and on and on andon
"Surly you must agree that in the first century AD, the majority of the population of Canaan were Jewish, and not Palestinian."
So now we are reverting back to the tired old argument of who was here first ! What about before 135 AD ? Does history begin and end with the jews in canaan ?!! The old testament is a bunch of B.S. Maybe you should read up on some science before you touch those hideous religious texts.
How easy it is to hide behind U.N. resolutions considering Israel has been the greatest violator of U.N. resolutions in the history of the U.N.
The plain truth is that israelis seem to treat the Palestinians in exactly the same way the germans treated them, as if they were sub-human and beneath contempt.
Nader
"why does a terrorist group have a charter"
Good question. Why doesn't someone ask the KKK?