Israel Plans Attack on Gaza
ISRAEL’s new defence minister Ehud Barak is planning an attack on Gaza within weeks to crush the Hamas militants who have seized power there.
According to senior Israeli military sources, the plan calls for 20,000 troops to destroy much of Hamas’s military capability in days. 
The raid would be triggered by Hamas rocket attacks against Israel or a resumption of suicide bombings.
Barak, who is expected to become defence minister tomorrow, has already demanded detailed plans to deploy two armoured divisions and an infantry division, accompanied by assault drones and F-16 jets, against Hamas.
The Israeli forces would expect to be confronted by about 12,000 Hamas fighters with arms confiscated from the Fatah faction that they defeated in last week’s three-day civil war in Gaza.
Details of the plan emerged as Fatah forces in the West Bank stormed Hamas-run buildings, including the parliament in Ramallah, where they tried to seize the deputy speaker.
Israeli officials believe their forces would face even tougher resistance in Gaza than they encountered during last summer’s war against Hezbollah in south Lebanon.
A source close to Barak said that Israel could not tolerate an aggressive “Hamastan” on its border and an attack seemed unavoidable.
“The question is not if but how and when,” he said.
© Copyright 2007 Times Newspapers Ltd
The Israeli government seems intent on bringing about its own demise. With continuing actions like this upcoming genocide and the previous one last summer, it seems only a matter of time before the liberal democratic state is swallowed up by angry militant Jihadists. Can’t say no one warned them though..
It’s about time I believe that the U.N. impose an ambargo against Israel, remember the impact on Iraq, 10 years of economiuc sanction. We are facing two doctrine, one against Iran who seeks nuclear power and Israel who have nuclear power and continue to attact it’s neighbors for the past 50 years.
A favorite conservative method of controlling overpopulation.
Israel and the United States are now in the position of providing arms to Fatah which it can, and will, use against its own people in the Gaza Strip. Isn’t it about time that demilitarized zones were created in the Middle East, including Israel? There are more handguns in Iraq, for example, than there are citizens, not to mention heavier weapons.
The free flow of arms throughout the Middle East, established decades ago, has made possible all of the confrontations which occur every day. Not one country ever mentions DECREASING the armaments being sold in the Middle East. Perhaps it is time to start.
Well Israel is an incredibly stupid entity. They are training their enemies to be good fighters–and the myth of the invincible Israeli war machine was exploded by Hezbollah.
They want to have a victory so they can believe that they are the invincible army of yore–and by shooting fish in a barrel–which is what Gaza is thanks to Egypt’s treachery, they think they can scare the arabs into submission.
It is likely that an onslaught on Gaza will be ignored by the western press much more than the Lebanon assault was.
The murderous Israelis must be stopped. When is this madness going to stop ? Our conscience is non-existant.
Killing for god. And so it continues….
hamas was democratically elected; the u.s. & israel just didn’t like the vote. hamas was elected b/c of the corrupted, traitorous, thoroughly disreputable fatah party.
the us and israel cut off all funds to the territories, and chaos predictably ensued. this may have been intended, as it gives israel an excuse to go in and try to crush hamas, to further their stranglehold on the palestinians.
hopefully, hamas will kick their ass, as hezbollah did in lebanon, and as the iraqis are the u.s.
I agree with all previous commentators. Let freely elected Hamas continue rocketing stupid Israeli indiscriminately. After all why we, in this country, have to care about Jews? They control world finances, do they not? This imperialist nest in the middle of Middle East must be squashed, must it not?
And all Israeli should be marched back to where they belong; to the Pale of Settlement in Russia, to Germany, to Spain, to Baghdad, Damaskus, &c. It was Hitler’s and his followers in Egypt and elsewhere fault after all, was it not?
So let them be wiped out by democratically elected Hamas and all progressives will be happy ever after!
Mr observer - your lame attempt at sarcasm unintentionally reveals much about the mentality of Israel apologists. You seek desperately to make the issue about Hitler and “anti-Semitism,” when it’s really about Israeli aggression and lawlessness.
You have heard, haven’t you, about the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Principles? According to such cornerstones of international law, seizing the land of another people by military force (not to mention colonizing it!!) is the supreme international crime. That is the real issue. Your ludicrous attempt to try to make it about Hitler merely demonstrates a fear of facing things as they are, & of calling them by their proper names.
Your position is like that of Bush supporters who accuse their opponents of being “anti-American.” They are terrified of facing the real issue — immoral & illegal US aggression — so their desire to confuse the issue with irrelevant red herrings is entirely understandable. This is something one naturally resorts to, when one tries to defend the indefensible.
observer’s sarcasm may be a little rough, but not without substance.
so many of the comments on common dreams border on anti-semitism, though the commentators would not admit to it, or perhaps see why they look that way to a jew. it’s easy to conveniently select a starting point in history, and then draw conclusions, but that will never get us anywhere with the middle east situation. the constant harping about aipac ignores the only really relevant fact: if israel were not considered vital to US interests, no one in washington would pay them the least attention (which they didn’t when israel was closer to the soviet union). aipac and the rest of the pro-israeli lobby draws its power from coincidence of interests, and cannot properly be associated with the absurdity of protocols of zion-like conspiracy or their own independent ambitions.
remember your history:
the nazis destroyed every jew they could, including the long secularized and “germanized” ones.
sentiment in england and the US was not uniformly anti-nazi, and many prominent individuals openly supported hitler and his plans.
it is within recent memory that all US elite universities had “jewish quotas”.
i could go on, of course, and we don’t need a course in the 2000 year history of anti-semitism. my point is that israel is powerful and evil at this moment in history because the largely non-jewish american elite wants it that way. otherwise they would happily return to “no jews allowed” days of the recent past. and progressives would be forced to abandon special pleading and confront real issues.
all u.s. support for israel should end immediately….see how war happy they’ll be knowing we won’t back their aggression.
we don’t need allies like israel.
A poster writes “we don’t need allies like israel.” I don’t entirely disagree, but this formulation presumes that “We” are basically good & pure, while Israel is evil & repugnant; and that the good “We” are being somehow sullied by our alliance with the “bad” Israel.
The truth is very nearly the opposite. Israel is what it is, largely because of “us.” ALL of “our” allies are just as rotten as Israel: that would include Pakistan, Uzbekistan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, the other Gulf sheikdoms, Britain, Australia, and so on. Most of the worst people in the world are (or were for many years) “our” allies — including Saddam and Osama. The smooth-talking arch-criminal Blair and the gangster Berlusconi are likewise our great allies, and there is no government anywhere more monstrously criminal than our own.
Criticizing Israel for its crimes of aggression is very justifiable — but not without full recognition that the US lacks the moral authority to look down on anyone.
this thread is sadly falling into the same trap that all discussions of israel get to. progressive criticizes israel, another Israel-supporting progressive claims he is being anti-semitic. Rinse, dry, repeat. One thing is for sure. Once you start throwing the term anti-semite around, all hopes of a rational conversation are over. Does one have to begin thread posts with “some of my best friends are jews, but I hate Israeli aggression?”
It seems that you must always tread on eggshells when criticizing Israel lest some troll accuse you of being anti-semitic. This is a strange double standard because no one ever accuses you of being a racist when you criticize America. Of course a lot of this probably has to do with the fact that America is multi-ethnic and sadly there is a long tradition of anti-semitism. But it also must be said that pulling out the anti-semitic card is a discussion-killing tactic which the Anti-Defamation League has long used to prevent criticism of Israeli foreign policy.
Anyone who has spent any time in Israel knows that Israeli politics are anything but monolithic. That there are many Israeli progressives who are committed to peace and abhor the militaristic policies of its government. Just as many progressives in America abhor BushCo and its militaristic policies.
Criticizing Israel does not make one an anti-semite, and I would urge the b-team Dershowitzes here to refrain from blithely throwing this term around. Because in the process you actually demean and debase the real meaning of the term. It is simply shooting dirty pool and unfair.
my point is that israel is powerful and evil at this moment in history because the largely non-jewish american elite wants it that way. otherwise they would happily return to “no jews allowed” days of the recent past. and progressives would be forced to abandon special pleading and confront real issues.
I personally don’t like using words like “evil” in the context of discussing foreign policy. I’ll leave that term to the George Bush’s of the world.
Israel is powerful at this moment for a whole host of reasons other than the one you suggest.
Are you really suggesting that Israel behaves the way it does only because of a history of anti-semitism?
If so I think that’s a somewhat naive reading of history and international politics.
I think you do have a point that a long history of anti-semitism is certainly a contributing factor. But much of the reason Israel is as powerful and aggressive as it is has to do with the fact that it is America’s proxy in the middle east. American taxpayers have continued to fund for its massive military growth because Israel is seen to be instrumental in maintaining a balance of power in the Middle East. The corporate-military establishment in this country see America and Israel’s self-interests as joined at the hip. If they are going to carry out this attack it will be with the full blessing of the US.
If being for truth, if being for justice, if being for compassion, is anti-semitic; then we all should be anti-semitic.
More mass violence and death ahead. Life is cheap in the Middle East.
RichM:
Your second post has more merits, but my point was to stop equating Israel, US, AIPAC &c. They are all different entities with sometimes confluent interests and in another times not. AIPAC, for one, is a good example of how people living in the bubble may do damage to their own cause. Besides, nobody knows the future results of his to-day action.
With regard to Israel being US client, give me a break. Israel was born and fought her wars until 1967 against American will and you know it. The history of the US and Zionism was and still is the history of betrayal and nobody expect it to be otherwise. American ruling elite is intrinsically anti-Semitic, notwithstanding current marriage of convenience, mostly build on promise to annihilate Jews as soon as Second Coming. It is lunacy, I admit, but this what you have when you have lunatics on both sides of Potomac River.
Not in the moment of existential danger, real or perceived. Nations, as well as people, do not have right to live, nice constitutional rhetoric notwithstanding. Nations, as well as people, ARE and you know it.
My last point is: we can judge people, especially those who think that they have power over History; but who are we to judge nations and History itself?
I prefer to be humble in that regard. I sympathize with the plight of Palestinians, but I sympathize with the plight of Israelis as well.
There will be more bloodshed this summer in the Middle East. Last summer was bad enough we don’t need a repeat but unfortunatly it looks like we are going to get one.
Observer
“Client” might be too strong a word. Nevertheless, it is well documented that Israel rarely takes action without US approval beforehand. Its leaders understand all too well which side of the bread the proverbial butter is on.
But I would agree with your statement about the importance of recognizing the multifarious entities involved and the fact that the way they work or don’t work together is more complicated than most people let on.
Not in the moment of existential danger, real or perceived. Nations, as well as people, do not have right to live, nice constitutional rhetoric notwithstanding. Nations, as well as people, ARE and you know it.
I wonder if you might have mis-typed that. Did you mean to say that nations as well as people have a right to live or are you really making the argument that they don’t have a right to exist. If it is the latter I’m not sure I follow your meaning here.
It seems to me that whatever argument you are trying to make could apply equally to both Israel and the Palestianians. I think both do have a right to exist. Let’s see if this next attack on Hamas is undertaken in the spirit of recognizing the Palestinians right to exist.
Israel was born and fought her wars until 1967 against American will and you know it
This statement is simply false.
America was reluctant at first but ultimately gave the Israeli generals the green light.
The Jews in Israel are now torn down the middle.
Some Israelis say that Israel is their land, and all of the other people must get out. The Bible says that God gave Israel to His people.
Some people are in the middle. Jews are humane to all other people, but if people are shooting at them, that’s different. The hard part is separating the shooters from the innocent.
Still others are horrified at the idea of showing up on an unsuspecting farmer’s farm, cutting down the farmer’s olive trees, bulldozing the farmer’s house, stealing his land, and sniping at family members in an effort to force the farmer to get out of Israel. God gave Israel to His people, but which particular sect of God-worshippers is God’s people? Both? The Jews and maybe the Palestinian Christians but never the Palestinian Muslims? Which members of each sect obey the following law: “Thou shall not steal”?
In any case, the Israeli government has waffled back and forth for 59 years, both on war/peace and on the preemptive forcing of Palestinians out of greater Israel. I’m sorry when they waffle back toward war, never quite understanding that rigorous honesty is the way to peace with their neighbors.
So much irrational hatred against Israel by some of the members of this Blog.
Have you even read the article? It was clearly said:
“The raid would be triggered by Hamas rocket attacks against Israel or a resumption of suicide bombings.”
The Israeli government first responsibility is to protect the lives of Israeli citizens. The attack will take place only if the Hamas will fire rockets or resume suicide bombing against innocent Israeli voters.
RadicalConfucian, aldo, kelmer , gyptian, ballsy, RichM, and jerrys. How would you feel if you were living in a city that suffer daily rockets attacks from across the border? Wouldn’t you want your elected government to do something about it?
Some of the comments here are even beyond bordering anti-semitisim. Such as:
observer - “Let freely elected Hamas continue rocketing stupid Israeli indiscriminately. After all why we, in this country, have to care about Jews? They control world finances… ”
observer, - For you, I hope your house will be strike by daily by “stupid” “indiscriminately” rockets raids. After all, the world will be a better place with one less racist Nazi in it.
The Jews don’t want to destroy Palestine, just enslave them. Palestine is to Israel as Mexico is to the United States. Justice, happiness and prosperity for all…
Is there anyone on this Blog that doesn’t tink observer’s comment is a racist one?
observer - “Let freely elected Hamas continue rocketing stupid Israeli indiscriminately. After all why we, in this country, have to care about Jews? They control world finances… ”
observer, For your information. The Jews today originally come from a place called Judea.
“After all, the world will be a better place with one less racist Nazi in it.”
Yes! Another verification of the Israel/Pqalestine corollary to Goodwins Law.
Goodwins law states: “The probability of mentioning Hitler or Nazis in any extended blog or other internet discussion will always approach one” The corollary states that - A probability of a defender of Israel calling those on the other side of the discussion “Nazis” by the second post is always very nearly equal to one.
“observer, For your information. The Jews today originally come from a place called Judea.”
Nonsense.
Most Jews are Ashkenazim, who descended from the central Asian Khazars who converted to Judaism, them migrated into Europe, in a manner similar to the Roma (Gypsies) who came from India. They are not related to the Semitic people of the Levant (i.e. “Judea”) in any way.
Go outside and take a nice deep breath, smell the fresh air. In a few weeks, hundreds of innocent Arab civilians will never breath fresh air again. First degree murder is about to be committed, as it is every single day by Israelis, only in this episode, in slightly inflated numbers over the daily norm. There have been thousands of such bloodbaths committed by the Jews in Israel against innocent Arabs. This will simply be another. Try to imagine being an Arab and having to put up with these creatures. How can any sane person defend this swine. I don’t believe that it is possible. And the bullets which splatter the brains of beautiful Arab children will, as always, be gifts to Israel of American taxpayers. We will all be in on the murder which will be led by seasoned mass murderer Ehud Barak. There is not a single thing that you can do to stop it. And what joy this carnage will bring to Jews everywhere as it always does.
Why do people resort to reading fiction when there are real monsters in the world who’s evil cannot be matched by literary imagination.
PJD - And how would you call the Attackers of Israel usage of Nazi / Hitler terminology? Not a “Goodwins law “?
observer -”It was Hitler’s and his followers in Egypt and elsewhere fault after all, was it not?”
Revised Goodwins law states: “The probability of mentioning Hitler or Nazis in any extended blog or other internet discussion will always approach one” The corollary states that - A probability of AN ATTACKER of Israel envoking the name “Hitler” or “Nazi”…
fd32 - I’ll give you a great advise on how to save the lives of all these poor, innocent Arabs that are expected to die in Gaza. STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL WITH ROCKETS AND SUISIDE BOMBING.
A simple solution that the Hamas have not yet discovered.
PJD - “Most Jews are Ashkenazim, who descended from the central Asian Khazars who converted to Judaism”
1. True that most Jews world width are Ashkenazi, However, most Israeli Jews are Sfaradi - Non Ashkenazi Jews.
2. The theory that Ashkenazi Jews are of Khazar origion (A theory that started in 1970 with the book “the 13th tribe”) have already been dismissed during the 90th by Genetic testings.
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews
the Jewish-Khazar thesis is used today primarily as a whipping horse
for antisemites claiming that they are not antisemites. This dubious theory holds that Ashkenazi Jews should be hated for pretending to be Jews, instead of because they actually are Jews. In any case, most scholarship on the subject dismisses the Khazar-Ashkenazi relationship, if not rejecting the portrayed Jewish golden age of Khazaria altogether.
Yes, vets, why won’t the stupid Arabs just sit quietly and let us take their homes and land!
PJD - I never said Arabs are stupid. They are human beings like everyone else. And I would also agree with the statement that the Palestinians, at least militarily - are the underdog.
However, I do not change my opinion that Hamas does not believe in live and let live. And that the Hamas’s intolerance and expected violence, is the reason why we will see many dead bodies in the near future.
Israel will not attack Gaza, if the Palestinians “sit quietly”.
vets..
Hamas are the elected representatives.
If the Palestinians “Sit quietly” while the theft of their lands and lives go on, Israel will not have to attack Gaza..after another few years..
Is that your policy
therzal - Hamas, a radical fundamentalist party, are elected representative in the PA parliament which control some 70% of the sits. No one dispute that.
President Abas, was also the elected President of the PA. I hope you will not depute that fact too.
As the Hamas come to power on January, 2006, they have denounced all the past agreements that the Palestinian Authority has signed with Israel. (One of which was the tax transfer agreement) In addition, they don’t recognize Israel right to exist, at ANY border (A clear violation on UN charter, since Israel is a member of that organization.)
They also publicly say that they have a natural right to take “ANY form of resistance” - Which is a code name for claiming to have a natural right to randomly kill Jews.
To learn more on the Hamas - What they believe with regards to liberalism, freedom of religion speech and thought, How they view woman’s right and homosexuality, and i they thinks Jews have any right to live in Israel - research about the “Hamas charter”
therzal - When you say: “theft” - Do you means that Israel have any claims over Gaza? I don’t understand. Do you think Israel plan to “steal” Gaza from the Palestinians?
Have you been listening to the news since August 2005? Let me give you a short update.
- In 2005, Israel have withdrawn from Gaza, evicting all the settlers and military base from Gaza. Israel have no claims what so ever to any millimeter of land within the Gaza strip. therefore your “theft” comment in out of place.
Last week, Hamas militants have committed a violent military coupe against the legitimate Palestinians security forces in Gaza (Such as the Police).
In case you have not read the article - It said that Israel is preparing to attack Gaza, If the Hamas will fire rockets at Israel, or resume suicide bombing against Israeli civilities. If they Hamas will sit quietly - No land is going to be stolen from Gaza, And the lives of many Palestinians and Israelis will be saved. Unfortenetly - It’s not going to happen.
Hey Vets, You need to stop watching CNN and Fox. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and publicly made a show of evicting 2500 settlers which ABC covered for a week. Independent reports suggest upto 8000 have moved into the same areas in new settlements ever since.
As far as Hamas is concerned, they unilaterally initiated ceasefire and held on for about 2 yrs. Stop ranting about terrorism and your view of the Palestinian problem. Those people are up in arms due to lack of action on our part in solving their issues. If Palestinians followed the Gandhian Satyagraha method, they will stay occupied for another 100 years just like the British held on in India and continued their barbarism and plunder until WWII broke their back. Your terrorist is someone else’s freedom fighter.
Our agents “Abbas” and his corrupt party brought about the palestinian vote for Hamas.
“Hamas militants have committed a violent military coupe against the legitimate Palestinians security forces in Gaza (Such as the Police).”
Coup by an elected government is pretty darn ridiculous, isn’t it? Maybe we need to rewrite out civics books.
“Do you think Israel plan to “steal” Gaza from the Palestinians?”
Ummm..what part of palestinian history for the past 80 years did you miss? The killings of Arabs in 1935 forcing them out of their villages or the 1948 eviction of palestinians which created around a million refugees who never returned back to their homes or the occupation of Gaza, west bank and jerusalem in 1967? I think its pretty clear to everybody that Israel “does” intend to steal palestinian land. And ya “stealing land” still means the same as it did when we stole land from native americans!
“As the Hamas come to power on January, 2006, they have denounced all the past agreements that the Palestinian Authority has signed with Israel. (One of which was the tax transfer agreement) In addition, they don’t recognize Israel right to exist, at ANY border (A clear violation on UN charter, since Israel is a member of that organization.)”
I thought we quit following International laws and the UN charter about 40 years back when Israel refused to return land it grabbed during the wars it fought with the invading arab armies. Also, the biggest violation is not allowing refugees to return to their homes for about 60 years now. By the way, if you didn’t know the UN recognizes the transfer of a population forcefully from its native land as a form of genocide.
Stop the blind support for Israel and start thinking outside the AIPAC propaganda for yourself!
Spartanladkenny - “Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and publicly made a show of evicting 2500 settlers”
A total number of settles who were evicted from Gaza was above 7,000 people, and not 2500 as you say.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel’s_unilateral_disengagement_plan
Spartanladkenny - “reports suggest upto 8000 have moved into the same areas in new settlements ever since.”
There is only one Jew living today in the Gaza strip (I hope he is alive). His name is Gilad Sahlit, and he is held captive by the Hamas.
Can you give us any reference to any of these so called “reports” that suggests that 8000 Jewish settlers are now living in the Gaza strip?
Spartanladkenny - “As far as Hamas is concerned, they unilaterally initiated ceasefire and held on for about 2 yrs.”
Since the disengagement in 2005. there was not a single month free of rockets attack from Gaza into Israeli civilities towns and Kibbutz.
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism-+Obstacle+to+Peace/Palestinian+terror+since+2000/Sderot+hit+by+Kassam+barrage+from+Gaza+-+May+2007.htm
Spartanladkenny - If Palestinians followed the Gandhian Satyagraha method, they will stay occupied for another 100 years
If the Palestinians would have acted in Gandhian methods, they would have had a state in 1937.
http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_peel.php
If they would have started to acted in Gandhian methods only in 1947, they could have had an independent Palestinian state right there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947_UN_Partition_Plan
They have missed another opportunity in 2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit
Spartanladkenny - “Coup by an elected government is pretty darn ridiculous, isn’t it? Maybe we need to rewrite out civics books.”
That is a coupe like an armed Republican militia, supported by Iran, will take over the USA by killing and disarming various police forces, FBI, National guard and US Army.
Spartanladkenny - “what part of palestinian history for the past 80 years did you miss?”
A coin have more than one side. You see only 1/2 the truth. Jews were ethnically cleanse from Arab held territory at equal, if not greater number.
Search google for: “Jews expelled from Arab countries”
“Hebron 1929″
“Gaza 1929″
“Jewish quarter in Jerusalem”
Being specific to the subject of this article - Israel don’t plan to steal any part of Gaza strip.
Spartanladkenny - “I thought we quit following International laws and the UN charter about 40 years back when Israel refused to return land it grabbed during the wars it fought with the invading arab armies”
Israel have already withdrawn from more than 90% of the territories Occupied in 1967, and by thus fulfilled UN Security consul resolution 242.
(See peace agreement with Egypt, Peace agreement with Jordan, Oslo accord with the Palestinians)
Spartanladkenny - “the biggest violation is not allowing refugees to return to their homes for about 60 years now”
1. A solution to the Palestinian refugees could have been achived in camp David 2000. Israel offered $30 Billion compensation to help settle the Palestinian refugees in the Palestinian state. Arafat have refused.
2. More Jews than Palestinians become refugees as a result of the Arab Israeli wars. Is that not “The biggest violation”?
Spartanladkenny - “Stop the blind support for Israel and start thinking outside the AIPAC propaganda for yourself!”
I am.
I’m not an American, and I never knew about AIPAC before I was blamed of being an AIPAC supporter.
Spartanladkenny - “You need to stop watching CNN and Fox”
I live in Canada. We don’t have Fox.
I am never sure of who’s seen this film on the Israel Lobby and who hasn’t. But here’s the link. It is superb.
http://www.vpro.nl/programma/plaatsdesoordeels/afleveringen/33882177/media/33964115/?bw=bb&player=wmp&media=33964115&refernr=&hostname=www&portalid=programmasites&x=29&y=11#
Whattheheck:
Two points:
1) Could you please elaborate in exactly what ways Israel is vital to the U.S. interests? Is it vital for creating chaos, misery, and insecurity in the region and/or initiating the U.S. wars? In fact, recent comprehensive treatment of this issue by many scholars has shown that Israel is a liability and not an asset to the U.S. interests in the region. You also conveniently seem to ignore that quite a number of holders of dual nationalities (American/Israeli) as well as pro-Israelis are in key positions within the U.S. regime.
2) The righteous who oppose Israel’s shameful and inhumane actions are not necessarily anti-religion or racists. Their target is not Christians, Muslims, or Jews, but have legitimate complaints against the warmongers and occupiers in the Israeli regime.
Some reading for the Israel apologists on this thread.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/a-hamasrun-gaza-we-can-_b_52438.html
Clearly written by a self-hating jew.
RichM, -I really appreciated your worthy attempt at fair-mindedness and balance, -thankyou for that.
I’m far from an expert on this topic, but I have have read a lot of good stuff by Uri Avnery. He’s an Israeli and has worked extensively with the downtrodden, much maligned Palestinian people.
Though Jewish, he is very far from being a supporter of the very unsavoury policies of rightwing Israeli leaders, in fact he’s fought them consistently, ~ to the extent where Israeli leaders and some settlers etc have even called for him to be murdered.
Nontheless, this very brave man (now in his 70’s) sets a good example to us all as to how we can effectively deal with seemingly insurmountable difficulties, in both this area, and many others.
You can read his biography at: www.avnery-news.co.il/english/uri2.html
I like the wise concept that Mr Avnery came up with, -he calls it ‘The Small Wheel Effect’. It refers to activists (such as us), creating a’ small wheel’, which, when applied appropriately / skilfully, then drives larger wheels, and progress happens, -quote:
“A small wheel with its own drive pushes a larger wheel, which drives an even larger wheel, and so on, until it moves the center of the consensus.”
Here’s Uri’s take on current events in re Israel and Hammas:
http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html
And over at the Anarcho/Libertarian site, ‘Strike the Root’ there’s a good article by Uri on American and Israeli mishandling of some of the topics discussed by some posters above. See his ‘Red Herring’ article on: http://www.strike-the-root.com/51/avnery/avnery19.html
_______________
Overall I think I am not on any group’s ’side’ -per se. I do find myself on the ’side’ of any and every human being who is trying to further peace and harmony between all races / tribes on this planet, -no matter where they hail from. I’ll help and support them until the cows come home. And I’ll stand in the way of any and all who actively seek to cause harm.
I don’t much care for outer labels, it’s how people’s hearts are at work, -that’s the bit that really does it for me.
And when we communicate with each other on this planet, though emotions may be stirring deeply, I think a certain amount of forebearace often helps.
If we find ourselves just slipping back into slagging each other off, then maybe we need to step back for a while and consider our *actual* effect…
~ are we actually winning or gaining anything when we fall to insulting each other, or are we just ‘firing off’, and then just end up with a bag-full of seperative resentments smouldering inside?
I kinda like the way NVC works, non-violent communication helps heal, not divide still further.
Fraternally,
A co-worker.
“More Jews than Palestinians become refugees as a result of the Arab Israeli wars. Is that not “The biggest violation”?”
Can you quote the exact numbers? I beg to differ but I’d like to see some numbers which support your claim. Many pro-Israeli commentators have tried to reduce the Palestinians refugee numbers to as low as 500K although rough estimates say 2 million at 1948. But still the difference between Israeli and palestinian refugees is that Palestinians still don’t have a home!
“. A solution to the Palestinian refugees could have been achived in camp David 2000. Israel offered $30 Billion compensation to help settle the Palestinian refugees in the Palestinian state. Arafat have refused”
“Israel have already withdrawn from more than 90% of the territories Occupied in 1967, and by thus fulfilled UN Security consul resolution 242.”
Why do we hear the same rant again and again from Israeli apologists? Israel was compromising during Oslo..Israel compromised a LOT during Camp David- The fact is Israel has absolutely no claim whatsoever on ANY land grabbed during the Yom Kippur war. Israel still controls all of Palestinian land and as a fact is holding palestinians as prisoners in their own land in the name of security. By International laws Israel has no right to even demand/negotiate on any of the land that it occupied during the wars it fought with its Arab neighbors. Do you think $30 billion is a fair sum for all the land that they have grabbed from the Palestinians? Arafat rejected so-called Israeli concessions because they were a big joke. Having a network of highways connecting settlements for Jews only with a stranglehold over water sources and allowing Palestinians to maybe print postage stamps and have a national anthem is not freedom. Besides Arafat had his own interests in claiming Jerusalem which by International law does belong to Palestinians. I have a good solution for this problem - Make these American Evangelical Christians pay reparations to Palestine on behalf of Israel. They want God’s chosen people to hold on to Jerusalem to bring about the coming of Christ - Okay..pay for it with your tax dollars!
Here is an interesting fact about Israel - It has made European countries with US support, pay reparations for the Holocaust losses of jewish people who were forced to move to Israel. Germany paid some 90 billion, Poland was made to pay a few billion, Swiss some 2 billion. I wonder how many billions Israel owes to Palestinians for all the land from 1948 with inflation? On a side note - when are all the people who underwent genocides be paid for crimes against their ancestors. The Native Americans deserve more than casino rights, no? What about the African Americans?
“The question is not if but how and when”, almost sounds like the US regarding Iran.
Why can’t people learn to ‘live and let live’! Why are so called democratic countries of this world always trying to shove their belief’s on those around them. We have become less of a democracy since we have started trying to rid the world of despot’s we don’t like. Where is it all going to end?
Response trollwiththepunches :
Do stones, atoms or stars have right to exist? The absurdity of such a question is crying out. Does the above set include so called living matter? I think so, for who is to draw the line, especially in our post-genomic era, between living and inert matter. For animated objects like ourselves we use verb live rather than exist.
Now comes atavism of Christian dogma, “Love thy neighbor as thyself”. I accept it however unnatural it is so long, as my neighbor does not ask me to give my life in order for him to stay alive. In that case we have dilemma, which means something outside of logic. Most anti-Israeli critiques come from people shaped by legalistic tradition. It does not mean that all of them at ease with Aristotelian logic, to say the least about dialectical logic. Here is an example from this site: “Israel refused to return land it grabbed during the wars it fought with the invading Arab armies.” As they say in Texas, All hatred and no sense.
You say “America was reluctant at first but ultimately gave the Israeli generals the green light”. That is about 1967 war; but I doubt that given red light, Israel would not attack. My all family was killed in 1941 in Riga and Vilna; their blood is much thicker, than petty considerations of American politics.
Just to remind everybody, that before 1945 British Empire was mightier that American Empire to-day. Yet Israel was born in spite of that false Truman’s legend with the help of real weapons smuggled to Palestine from Czechoslovakia. Just one more example of power of an American Agitprop.
USA/Israel are wasting their time dealing with Fatah.
Fatah is corrupt, and just interested in lining their own pockets with the soon to be flowing aid money, so they can replace their solid gold toilets, and new toys for their mistresses in Paris.
The USA and Israel are quite happy to buy a sham government and pretend to make peace deals, to make the politicos look good. Imagine Bush geting to claim he brought peace to the ME, just for the price of a few millions to the corupt Fatah leadership. Forget about democracy…
Hamas has the support of the people. There can be no solution to the problems without the support of the Palistinian people.
Spartanladkenny - “Can you quote the exact numbers?”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
The numbers ends up to be around 900,000 Jewish refugees that fled Arab countries, most were expelled to Israel and France.
As for your claims for land grab by force - Would you agree that there was no land grab before 1947? Until 1947, all the Jewish land in Palestine was legally paid for, or originally owned by Jews.
The land grab start happening in 1947, after the Palestinians and 7 other Arab countries rejected UN resolution 181, and started a war of annihilation against the Jews living in Palestine. The land grab and Palestinian refugees issues started as a result of that war of aggression.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War
Spartanladkenny - “Many pro-Israeli commentators have tried to reduce the Palestinians refugee numbers to as low as 500K although rough estimates say 2 million at 1948″
The number of refugees who fled or were expelled is controversial; estimates range from 367,000 to over 950,000. The final UN estimate was 711,000. Not 2 million as you claim.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugee
The total of numbers of Palestinians in Palestine in 1948 was 1.25 millions. How can there be 2 millions refugees out of a group of 1.25 millions?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
canuckchuck - “But still the difference between Israeli and Palestinian refugees is that Palestinians still don’t have a home!”
I agree with you on that. The Jewish refugees were settled, and they now have new homes in israel / France. The Palestinian refugees are still keeping their refugee status 59 years after the the tragedy that happen to them in 1948.
The differences between us is that you blame only Israel for the Palestinian condition, and act as if they are some kind of passive dolls or wimps that have no responsibility or influence what so ever for their own condition.
The Palestinian refugee problem could have been ended in Camp David 2000. Arafat rejected the proposed solution.
“The Palestinian refugee problem could have been ended in Camp David 2000. Arafat rejected the proposed solution.”
If you looked on Ehud Barak’s website (which I did) at the time, you would see what a lousy offer it was.
Israel will not stay out of Gaza. History shows they take police action in occupied territories backed by air power.
This leads to retaliation and it keep going on and on.
“The differences between us is that you blame only Israel for the Palestinian condition”
Who else is to blame ? You do not blame the victim. You blame the criminal. Israel is committing these crimes.
maggie50 “If you looked on Ehud Barak’s website (which I did) at the time, you would see what a lousy offer it was.”
It was a far better offer than the one Israel got from the Arab states for their jewish refugees.
gyptian “Who else is to blame ? You do not blame the victim. You blame the criminal. Israel is committing these crimes.”
If you look for someone to blame - blame the Palestinian leadership and the Arab league who rejected the UN partition plan. They could have a agree to UN resolution 181. However they thought it was not good enough, instead they took a gamble, and when for a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine, and they lost.
It’s like someone knowingly going to a casino, lose his money, and than complain to the casino management that he wants his money back by blaming only the Casino for his condition.
Gyptian:
“Who else is to blame ? You do not blame the victim. You blame the criminal. Israel is committing these crimes.”
As I have written on another occasion, one has to distinguish between compassion for human suffering and justice (by justice I mean blame game, i.e. who is responsible for suffering, and why). The person who is suffering deserves our help and alleviation of pain, but this does not mean this person is faultless.
Simple example: person A attacks person B, but it just happens that person B is strong enough to punch person’s A teeth out. We can feel person A’s pain, but this does not put this person A in the right. This argument can be used to defend the rights of criminals, and to protect them from cruel punishments. Still, they are criminals, and should be in jail, right?
Sorry … your analogy is as muddled as your logic.
The state of israel is a western construct and has absolutely no moral, legal or political right to exist. That is if you give international law any credence. The fact that it exists is because the west chose to dump the ‘jewish’ problem on someone else. Why couldnt the western nations after WW2 absorb the jewish population. If the jewish people decided to move to their once historical lands they should request not demand to live there. You cannot completely disposess another ‘people’ and claim that you are the victim.
gyptian - “The state of Israel is a western construct and has absolutely no moral, legal or political right to exist…. You cannot completely dispossess another ‘people’ and claim that you are the victim.”
Israel is a respected members of the UN, One of the first who joined that organization. According to UN charter (Article 2), Israel has the same right to exist as any other of the 192 UN members.
There is a very simple way to identify if you are a racist anti-semic or not. Please provide to the respectable members of this Blog a list of all the UN members that you think have “absolutely no moral, legal or political, right to exist”.
If you list have only one name in it, the Jewish state, - then it will be clear to everyone what YOU are.
Your comment that Jews have no right for self determination is an anti-semistic comment, according to the definition of the The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (EUMC)
http://eumc.europa.eu/eumc/material/pub/AS/AS-WorkingDefinition-draft.pdf
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Now that we have established what you are, let’s examine your statement that Israel was established by the west after WW2.
That theory is nothing but a myth. When the Arab league unleashed their Genocidal war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine - How many divisions did the west sent to aid the newly created state? How many airplanes? How many Aircraft carriers? How many combat soldiers? It all come out to a very round number. 0.
In fact, Young Israel’s main weapon supplyer was no other than Czechoslovakia, which was part of the eastern block.
Except for some unbinding support declaration, the west has done nothing to help the creation of the Jewish state in their historical homeland.
gyptian - “…. You cannot completely dispossess another ‘people’ and claim that you are the victim.”
Israel could have been peacefully created, along side a Palestinians state. Without a single Palestinian or Israeli disposed of his land or killed. If Only the Palestinian leadership would have accepted UN resolution 181 (As Israel did).
Unfortunately, the Palestinians leadership in 1948 had the same state of mind as the Hamas have today, and that you, YOURSELF now have, gyptian (”The state of Israel is a western construct and has absolutely no moral, legal or political right to exist”) That is why they were not ready for a compromise and they have chosen war, that have eventually brought the Nakba (Catastrophe) upon themselves.
B.T.W, the Fatah in 1993 have a agreed to recognize Israel’s right to exists. So maybe there is hope… They are more Progressive that you gyptian.
Israel Israel Israel…. what are we to do with you?
To vets:Maybe the west had nothing to do with creating Israel.But they sure have had a lot to do with helping them become the 5th most powerful military in the world.Hmmmm funny how the west has put so much into havin such a powerful ally in the middle east.This has nothing to do with “obligations”to protect the nation of Israel,and has everything to do with having Israel do the West’s beconing.Stop watching CNN and Fox news,and stop with calling everybody who doesnt agree with the rogue state of Israel rascist and anti semitic you idiot.Its getting old. You should be a memeber of AIPAC or something.”the west has done nothing to help the creation of the Jewish state in their historical homeland.” This may be their Historic homeland but i do believe the Nation of Israel was born in biblical times,And when the new “nation” of Israel was “created” the palestinians were living there for centuries.But since you are so concerned with historic homelands then i guess you feel we all should get back on our boats and go back to Europe and give our natives their land back too? Because after all this is THEIR historic homeland.But you probably dont feel that way because your a hypocryt.People like you really need to think comments through before you open your mouth you make it to easy for people like me.
pabs666@hotmail.com
pabs66 - “Stop watching CNN and Fox news,and stop with calling everybody who doesn’t agree with the rogue state of Israel racist and anti semitic you idiot.”
I didn’t call everyone anti semitic. I just brought to the attention of the readers of this Blog how the The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia (An organization that has nothing to do with AIPAC, Jews or Israel) identify antisemitism, and then compared that definition to gyptian’ comment. Are the European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia idiots as well just as I am?
Was there a single word in my comment which was not true?
I think that Both Jews and Palestinians has rights to the same real estate called Israel / Palestine.
I think that Israel is not more a “rogue state ” than any other UN member.
I think that the Palestinian tragedy happened because the Palestinians did not accept any compromise proposal in the past.
vets …. just about everything you say is incorrect. Israel a respected member of the U.N. ?!! Thats laughable. No other nation-state has broken more resolutions than Israel. You are right in that Israel ‘could have been’ created peacefully alongside a Palestinian State but instead they chose to do it by force !
As for your personal attacks on me its irrelevant.
Such a charming photo of this contented, overfed, terrorist murderer, listing lazily to the starboard in order, no doubt, to expel gas as he poses for friendly photos while planning his next extermination of Palestinian women and children.