Pundit is your typcial Islamophobe. They love to come out of the woodwork with the simple explanation it must be what Muslims believe and therefore there is something wrong with Islam. Let me remind the Islamophobes on commondreams again how Islam has its roots in the Abrahamic tradition. So when you condemn Islam you are in fact condemning your own religious traditions if you belive in monotheism.

"Say: 'We believe in God, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in the Books given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord; we make no distinction between one and another among them, and to God do we bow our will in Islam" (Qur'an 3:84).

Hey it's just Muslims being Muslims, no big deal.It is an exercise in futility for Westerners to "explain" what is happening in the Middle East. Logic, reason, comparing their purported motives to those of Asians, Westerners, or people in the rest of the world is pointless. Stand back and watch em fight, enjoy the show. It is Abstract Expressionism, the theater of the absurd, sound and fury-insignificant.

It is ridiculous what is going on here. Israel supporting the creation of Hamas to fight the power of Fatah. Then they turn around and support nobody and hoping they will destroy each other. Now that Hamas routed out the coup in Gaza, Israel goes back in support of Fatah. Is this blowback after blowback?

On the support of the Palestinians, it is, under international law, the responsibility of the occupational power to provide the well beings of the people it is occupying. But since Israel has negated on its responsibility, it is up to the rest of the world to pick up that task, and they do it without a peep to the irresponsibility of the occupying power. Imagine, if after the US invasion of Iraq, we let the people there starve to death. There would be worldwide outrage.

Have you never heard the wise words of Kissenger who said of Chile, "We cannot stand idly by and let a free and democratic people decide (yes, DECIDE) to go communist." While we have new fears, now, or, at least, new labels, we cannot stand by and let a free and democratic people BE free and democratic. You are FREE to be as we envision you. That's our democratic motto. Ask Arbenz of Guatemala about democratic change. Or Mossadegh. If you think "the people" are not deciding these issues, you have just missed OFFICIAL definition of "the people."

Palestinians should elect anyone they want to represent them, that is democracy. The US and Israeli governments should decide which governments they want to support that is diplomacy.

Palestine wants Hamas, then they get Hamas but why should we send them money? I don't want a penny of my money going to a Hamas ruled Palestine although I strongly support Palestine's right to elect them. In the long run it saves money.

Israel has withheld many millions of tax dollars rightfully owed to the Palestinian government. This isn't a matter of mere support. These tax monies aren't a charitable donation. The taxes are rightfully owed to the Palestinians -- who need I remind you -- live under Israeli occupation.

The U.S. (governed by a war criminal assigned to his post by the Supreme Court in an election stolen by Karl Rove and his ilk) refuses to deal with a democratically elected Palestinian government. Irony of ironies.

dear goose ... I do want your pennies to go to Palestine. You owe it to them.

The "peace" groups in Britain, the U.S., and Europe have a great burden of fighting this insanity now before it does "blow up" in everybody's faces!

thoreaulvr - I don't owe the Palestinians squat but rightfully, they do deserve squat, but not much more. How do I owe them anything but lead and bombs? I am not Jewish. I don't live in Israel or even like the place. I don't buy Israeli products. I don't buy Palestinian products. I simply have no connection to them. How do I owe them?

I don't care what their rights are, they as a people, kill themselves and others. They don't get my money. Note that as an American that kills others, I really don't want any money from the rest of the world either and I certainly don't want their opinions.

I truly believe in isolationism and nationalism. America first, all others last.

""i don't want their opinions." then what the hell are you doing on this website?"

What else? Laughing at you all.

"i don't owe them anything but lead & bombs" what do you expect in return?

That is "I don't"

In English, you capitalize the "I"

I was minding my own business when Palestinians started hijacking planes, killing people in lines at airports, killing athletes, shooting people in wheelchairs. I watched as they terrorized the world. They have earned the hell that they live in. What do I expect now from them? Lead and bombs. Just like what I send them. Nice symetrical relationship, but there are a lot fewer of them to kill than there are us and is is so much easier to kill them than it is for them to kill us. All in all, it is just another positive move in the Middle East.

Hamas clearly won the election and the battle against Fatah - once again, its time to recognize and respect them. After all much of the world recognizes the Bush administration, a criminal group that has not legitimately accomplished what Hamas has.

with the exception of "these backward countries" sounds good greenman. implies that the west has it all figured out and the "backward countries" keep screwing things up. hmmm, dummies huh? did you read this article??

The history of "Judea" is baasd on a phony book of nonsense with no documented historical credibility.

Sieg heil, goosey.

goose, there is no atomized "I" sitting out there in solipsis land indifferent and immune to the larger world. the u.s. is deeply implicated in the whole m. east and is the patron of the israelis. the entire world is affected by palestine b/c of u.s. patronage of israelis and b/c the whole m.e. (the energy center of the globe) is enflamed over this issue. "i don't owe them anything but lead & bombs"? what do you expect in return? "i don't want any money from the rest of the world"? make sure your u.s. leaders tell that to the chinese and japanese, please!

"i don't want their opinions." then what the hell are you doing on this website?

Goose

"How do I owe them anything but lead and bombs?"

Take your meds, get up from your fighting keyboard, and get some sleep. The Cheetos and Diet Pepsi will we waiting for you when you wake up.

As for the Chinese and Japanese, business is business and the people interested in trade will do that with each other regardless of the politics or policies of the others. We dealt with the USSR pretty much from the day they were created. EVEN when we had troops in the Soviet Far East during the Russian Civil War, we were dealing with them. War, policy, inequity, nationalism, all those things are smaller than capitalism. Trade will continue regardless of anything else.

Has anybody mentioned that the U.S., israel and Egypt just combined a few months ago to sell millions of arms to Fatah to start it's client-state
phony civil war against Hamas ?

Part of the Oslo accords was for Israel and the US to arm and help train the Palestinian police which is what passes for a military since an army was expressly not allowed under Oslo. I would say it is good timimg, but probably nothing more. Remember that the Fatah police didn't put up much resistance, Hamas is the more popular and less corrupt of the two organizations. I don't think they needed any help to do what they did to take control in Gaza.

"and so it goes"...the lameness of mortals

goose... do u know that your tax $$ is going to Israel at the rate of about $1000 a year? Why don't you do something about that instead of belly aching here?

Well, Israel is using that money to make the wall which I support. I have complained to my representative about all foreign aid which I think we all want stopped in general, but so far it hasn't happened so I take heart in the fact that most of the money to Palestine goes to the killers that are less competent overall and less dangerous. After '08, I think we can push for less foreign aid for everyone across the board.

America is an empire, and is acting accordingly. Imperialism and democracy are historically mutually exclusive. So is truth and hypocrisy. Of course in the Middle East it's all about oil and securing geopolitical terrain. When a great majority of Americans see beyond the myth of America and see what we really are, perhaps the world can be saved.

Two great articles talking about our empire that I highly encourage readers to glance at:

"Enter the Empire"

www.valenzuelasveritas.blogspot.com

"Of the Evil Empire"

This comment is being offered on the "cusp" of the topic. A few years ago I was invited to lecture in Malaysia to a group of architects and business people. As is the custom, when one travels from Singapore to Malaysia, they must stop at the border for a passport check. My maiden name is obviously Jewish and I was a little worried about that, since it's known that no ISRAELIS are allowed into Malaysia, which is primarily a Muslim country. In any case, the border situation went uneventfully and after spending a day with my intellectual friends, and being taken to meet the highest monk at a beautiful Buddhist Temple, a number of us went to a vegetarian Chinese restaurant for dinner. Sitting across from me was a surgeon and his wife and she and I just got on marvelously. Our party literally closed the restaurant, so we went to the surgeon's home to continue an animated discussion and of course the Middle East matter came up. I believe in honesty and mentioned that my filial background was Jewish, but that I was no advocate of Israeli aggressive policies towards Palestine. I though my new hosts would turn pale. The surgeon's wife got up and came over to embrace me, said she had never in her life MET a Jew, and we hugged. It was really cathartic. In Singapore, along with a Buddhist monk friend of mine, we set up a meditation that had Christians, myself (I am not a practicing Jew as my beliefs are more esoteric), Muslims, Hindus, and Buddhists all praying together. I believe these small circles of LIGHT, initiatives of this nature have profound reverberent affects and can help alleviate, perhaps little by little, the tension that has built up like the ideological equivalent of a geologic fault line in the birthplace of 3 powerful religions. Perhaps mankind must HEAL the holy land, to see global relations defused all across the earth. (Needless to say, if powerful merchants affiliated with the military industrial complex had their own reckoning, realized what their profits are costing the world, that would signify the epiphany I certainly pray for.)

Thanks, Robert Fisk, for tellin it like it is -- which has always been your particular talent. And just ignore the foregoing silliness. It's just America growing up.

Who is this guy posting as goose?

To All Who Post Comments on Common Dreams:

Please refrain from responding to idiotic nonsense of those who claim some such things as," I am not Jewish and I don't live in Israel, but …blah, blah, blah" and the rest of the nonsense. These individuals are like prank callers. If you respond to them, they love it and get more excited. Simply ignore them and let them go away. Just look how many "comments" this goose-like creature has posted on this article alone, and all of it irrelevant and nonsense.

We should all support the Fatah faction so that they can wipe out Hamas.

Just to note, Palestinians were never being 'punished' for voting for Hamas. Hamas was elected into power, representing the Palis. Hamas proceeded to renege on previous agreements made by the PA, withdrawl from the peace process ENTIRE and refused to swear off violence. These were diplomatic decisions that had an effect on relations with the rest of the world. HOW can the West recognize Hamas while fighting a war on terror? Relations were strained by only two of Hamas' stubbonr policies;its refusal to stop violence(so it wouldn't be a terrorist organization anymore and interests wouldn't be conflicted) and re-entered the peace process. THis was Hamas' policy choice and Hamas' diplomatic failure.

Welcome to "Palestine?"

If the peoples of this "dis cuss ion" can't refrain from tossing verbal brickbats how can the peoples of Transjordan ever find peace?

The thing that has always astounded me about this whole mess is the inability for anyone to put themselves in the palistinians shoes.
This whole concept of israel's right to exist.
Consider this.
If you lived in California, and a group of mexicans funded by a foriegn government invaded coastal california say the L.A. basin driving all the non hispanic residents out, how would you feel? How long would you fight to get your land or home back. How would you feel about the forign goverments that recognized and supported this new entity. We could use an example of hawaii or alaska as well or the entire western hemisphere for that matter.
If there is a history in the future, the recognition of israel after WWII will be seen as the stumbling block and greatest mistake of the 20th century. After WWII we had an invaluable oppertunity and it was squandered. After fighting a world war to end fascism and imperial aggression we allowed the dispossessed hebrews to dispossess another innocent people. This set up a double standard obvious to the rest of the world and ignored by the U.S. and Great Britain.
If the Jews deserved a homeland it should have been carved out of Germany and Italy and all of this could have been averted.
Now after all these years we have established a radical islam that views the rest of the world that is sympathetic to israel as an enemy that can't be trusted. Who can blame them? Look at what we did to Iran in 1953? How can they be expected to trust us now?
For over a generation now we have blithely gone about the undeveloped third world interfering with the natural order of things, extracting resources and manipulating governments for our own interests all in the name of spreading democracy, i.e. unfettered capitalism, irrespective of what the citizens wanted or what was in their best interest.
I know it's all spilt milk at this point, but we now have to sleep in the bed we've made.
Now that these backward countries have caught up to us, are onto our game, they have no reason to trust us.
What to do? I must admit I don't know a surefire solution. Cutting off all aid to israel until they are able to recognize the injustice of what they have done to the palistinians would be a start though. Otherwise will just have to accept the fact that now whenever we travel as westerners in the rest of the world we will be at risk and that there will probably always be radical elements of many different factions out to terrorize the west.
What a nightmare.
I suppose if you believe that there will always be war or rumors of war, there will never be peace.

Hey Salia. I am posting as Goose and I am not going away. I really truly represent a lot of us here that want Palestine to stop fighting and get along with Israel, but know that they won't. You can call them savages or whatever you want, but the fact of the matter is that they want their land back and they can't have it. Get over it and get on with life. If the Palestinians are that wonderful why don't they have rights in any of the states they reside in like Jordan and Lebanon? Answer, no Arab government wants them because they are violent.

Violence has to stop and the Palestinians have to stop it or get walled out. I am fine with that and so are millions of Americans.

Mr. Fisk should add the CBC to his list of international broadcasters....all reporting from the POV of Fatah rather than all sides of the elected gov't of Palestine and now this ridiculous schism with two PMs emerging......tragic

Goose,

Do you really think that the other Arab countries won't take in the Palestinians because they are violent? It is more likely because their economic systems can't handle all the refugees.

By stating they are ALL violent you sound like a...well for lack of a better word...racist.

Can't you see the effect of US actions on the world or is it always the fault of the people we exploit........oh yeah I forgot. Something about America first, all others last.

Dont waste your time with Goose. Obviously skipping without a rope.

"If the Jews deserved a homeland it should have been carved out of Germany and Italy and all of this could have been averted."

**amen
and that is just what Iran's president suggested recently.
It really went over well in the west.

The Palestinians have a couple of problems--one is that they are not united(as we can see. The Israeli siege of Gaza does not excuse their infighting).

The second is that the jews, like the blacks, have a history of victimhood to fall back on --for the blacks it was slavery, for the jews it was the nazis. So no matter how many arabs get shot, people seem to think--oh well its bad but..the jews had it worse. This is why no one is going after Israel even though hardly any of them have been killed in recent years--but hundreds of arabs have.

And, the jews are seen as "more white" than the arabs, and their religion is seen as more legitimate to Christians than Islam.

I dont know if a complete aid cutoff to Israel would help. Look how some of their supporters whine about a boycott!

They might fall into Masada mode and launch nukes at everyone. When you have a spoiled child and you wont give them a candy--they usually throw a tantrum. Israel could throw a really bad one.
Plus, if enough of their leaders believe in the Chosen People story, they arent going to give a damn what happens to non jews(how often do you hear them talk about the non jewish victims of Hitler?).

Shock therapy or a slow cut off.

I think a boycott would be the best strategy. Hit their products, and their academics.

But the Palestinians have got to get their act together. Fatah seems to be as big a problem as the Israelis are.

Goose, you don't know squat.

You are telling people that are living under an army of occupation that its their duty to get along with Israel. And if you knew squat, then you'd know Israel just keeps tightening the screws. When the Palestinians have tried getting along nicely with Israel, they just get screwed even more. My impression is that Israel's long-term goal is to drive all the Palestinians out of their land by constantly pressuring them, attacking them, killing them, destroying their property, keeping them from building anything decent, etc.

Most of the violence is Israeli violence against Palestinians and its occurring on the far side of that evil wall you are so proud of.

First, try turning off American corporate news. If you are getting your information about what's happening in the middle east from them, then you are an idiot. Just remember these are the same people who told you that Saddam had nuclear weapons. They are just as biased and wrong in their reporting on Israel and the Palestinians.

Just as an example of what happens to the Palestinians, there have been times when the Palestinians have tried non-violent protests ala Ghandi or MLK. It usually results in them getting shot by the Israeli army. The Palestinians who try to be peaceful olive farmers get their olive groves destroyed by the Israelis. The Israelis have deliberately destroyed most of the economy in the West Bank and in Gaza.

The only way the Palestinians can get along with Israel would be by dying or if they give up and travel as penniless refugees to another land. Otherwise, the violence will continue because the violence is the Israelis attacking the Palestinians.

And, oh, by the way, you are paying for it. The US gives Israel about $3 BILLION a year in military aid. Plus usually we loan them more money, with loans guaranteed by your government with your tax money, and those loans are always 'forgiven' later on. So, if you like $3 billion to $5 billion a year of your tax money going to Israel to pay for ethnic cleansing, then just keep criticizing anyone who tries to tell the world what's really going on.

greenman "If you lived in California, and a group of Mexicans funded by a foreign government invaded coastal California say the L.A. basin driving all the non Hispanic residents out, how would you feel?"

Funny that you have mentioned California as a "White" country in a scenario that some part of it are taken by Mexicans "Invaders". If you would have done your homework in History, you might have learned that California was actually occupied by the USA from Mexico back in 1848.

You think of Mexicans as some kind of foreigners, who have no right to live in California. And you are comparing them to Jews, that you believe have no right to live in the historical land of Judea - the land of their ancestors.

greenman "the recognition of Israel after WWII ... the greatest mistake of the 20th century"

Are you reading what you are typing? Recognizing tiny Israel is the biggest mistake of the 20th century? Not Nazism that cost the lives of 60 millions. Not Stalinism and Maoism which killed tens of millions. Not the war in Vietnam (more than million dead Vietnamese and 58000 Americans). Not the invasion of Iraq. Nor WW1 and WW2.

I give you F in History.
you have an A though in inciting hatred.

PJD "The history of "Judea" is baasd on a phony book of nonsense with no documented historical credibility."

There are plenty of Egyptian, Babylonians, Greek, Roman, Persian, Assyrians, and Jewish Papirus documents, scrolls, books, monuments, coins, and archaeological findings that proves that Judea did exists and that its residence were Jews. And yes, there is also that "phony book of nonsense".

http://www.forumancientcoins.com/catalog/roman-and-greek-coins.asp?vpar=907

http://images.google.ca/images?hl=en&q=Titus%20gate&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi

http://www.amazon.ca/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/702-5697644-1724043?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=Josephus+Flavius+&Go.x=8&Go.y=5

Are you a Judea denyer PJD?

Hey, if its ok to overthrow the democratically elected government of Palistine, HAMAS, then it MUST BE ok to overthrow the undemocratic, election-stealing Bush Misadministration..fair is fair

You know, I am someone who hasn't felt very up to speed on middle eastern matters, particularly the Israeli-Palestine mess. But through Commondreams, National Catholic Reporter and especially the writings of Stephen Zunes, and listening to Democracy Now! and Robert Fisk, I'm getting a background.

The whole thing is a testimony to America's tendency to meddle in places it should not. Frankly, to view the issue from both the Israeli and Palestine perspective has value. And as Jimmy Carter said in _Peace, not Apartheid_ both sides have made errors.

But there is no question that the Palestinian perspective is under-represented. Also see Democracy Now! of Friday, June 15th's converage of the situation. It is clear that America is intervening in an underhanded and destructive way to weaken someone it doesn't want to deal with, enhancing the chaos in that country. Shame on us!

America should be on the side of peace. We need to quit thinking we can shape every government to what we want them to be. Frankly, we're not doing such a great job of governing ourselves right now.

Mr. Bush needs to quit treating the world like his personal laboratory for the testing of chaos theory.

Hi everyone. I have read the posts on many of the articles here. The conflicts and hatred in the Posts seem a lot like the military and economic warfare out there. I don't understand why we all so easily fall into blaming the other for this or that problem. I think we all have to look very hard at ourselves. The Iraq war is not solely the fault of the neocons, and global warming is not solely the fault of corporations. These things are the result of our own human greed. All we all really wanted, from the beginning, was to love, to be loved. How did these simple desires go so astray?

Saila said:

>>Who is this guy posting as goose?
To All Who Post Comments on Common Dreams:
Please refrain from responding to idiotic nonsense . . .>>

Folks, CommonDreams is the "Home of the Progressive Community." It is NOT a community for arguments with non-progressives.

Progressives have a well-defined set of view on the US/Israel/Palestine conflict. See the Green Party Platform, the Ralph Nader Platform, the Dennis Kucinich Platform, the Progressive Democrats of America platform, and many of the Progressive Caucuse platforms in state Democratic Parties. All support abiding by and enforcing international laws. All condemn any harm to civilians for any reason. All support the right to legitimate, legal resistance to illegal, immoral occupation.

Responding to divisive, non-progressive comments, like those proposed by "Goose" invite arguments that distract us from communicating with ourselves.

I completely agree with Saila's proposal not to respond to non-progressives attempting to incite arguments by baiting our Community with obviously non-progressive views.

The main editor of CommonDreams, Craig Brown, is obviously a true progressive. He and the other editors will keep blatently non-progressive articles from being published, but we cannot rely on him or the other editors to censor posts here. Nor would I want them to.

Folks, I suggest we do what Saila said: don't bite on the baiting by nonprogressives.

inri porter
I think the reason why so much focus is given to Israel, is because of religion.

More than 90% of Americans, (Including George W.) believe in God. That is how I explains so much attention is given to the holy land, while neglecting other conflicts, sometimes deadlier by a factor of 1000.

Earthian
I don't agree with you. Progressiveness does not means fall in line with the Progressive Parties party lines, and blindly join the anti-Israel hatred rituals.

I have read some books by Noam Chomsky and Haward Zinn. The common thread is: Think for yourself. Be critic to anything to you read.
And that includes also having the right to critic some parts of articles and books written by Progressive writers.

I have no problems to see people criticize Israel's actions, or support an end to the occupation, for as long as they are done in context. (On many occasions Israel does play nasty) But when I read someone spitting hate and racial comments against Israel and Jews, While using half truth and sometimes even lies to "prove" their theory - I reject that. And I'll try to being additional information that negate it.

Also - One of the basic principles of Progressiveness is free speech. The moment free speech is gone, I will not see myself as one.

Greenman, Nice post! I have been saying for years if the world decided that Cubans deserved to have Florida, same type of thing you have been saying. Now all you hear if Calif. was originally Mexico, blah blah blah. No can give a perfect example. How far back are you supposed to go?

One other point I want to make, just as many Christians were killed by Nazis!!!!

And why if you are against Israel, must you be against Jews? One is a Country and one is a religion. You should be able to separate the two.

How many Israeli Jews are held without charge after being beaten and tortured in Palestinian or Lebanese jails? How many Israeli Jews are stopped at military checkpoints for hours? How many Israeli Jews have had their land confiscated and their homes bulldozed? How many Israeli Jews can actually trace their ancestory back to the land that they claim as their "historic homeland"? Just wondering.

Republicrat-Demican -

- How many lives would have been save if the Arabs would go forward with the The Weizmann-Faisal Agreement back in 1919?

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/faisaltext.html

- How many Palestinian would have been saved if their leader would go forward with the Peel Commission proposal?
How many lives of Jews who died in the holocaust would have been saved if a Jewish and Arab states had been created in 1937?

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_peel.php

- How much suffering would have been prevented if the Palestinians would have not rejected UN partition plan from 1947?

Republicrat-Demican "How many Israeli Jews can actually trace their ancestry back to the land that they claim as their "historic homeland"?

Answer - Most

Israeli Jews can genetically and culturally trace their origin to Judea.
Throwout the middle ages, Jews mostly live in isolated communities divided from the Mulsim and Christian population.

Jewish prayers since the destruction on the temple in 70AD pray regularly "Next year in the rebuilt Jerusalem."

Saila, your comments remind me of the Nixon official who said "don't talk to me, my mind is closed". are your arguments that weak that you don't want them held up to the light?

Goose2 - I support your call for freedom of speech and expression.

censorship is not Progressiveness
antisemistic comments are not Progressiveness. (Though I don't want to see them blocked as well)

I have seen comments such as:
- Calls to Nuke Israel where the only down side is that also a few million Palestinian will die in this "positive" nuclear holocaust.
- Calls expel all Jews to Germany and Italy.
- Comments that permits war crimes against Jews, because they control the world finance.

Trust me people, the Gooses and the Vets never read Common Dreams until they started these discussion groups, they are part of the watchdog groups that zero in whenever anyone tries to tell the truth about Israel. I was wondering what was taking so long. The truth will come out though, it always does. The Council for the National Interest website--cnionline.org