vets

is this still a viable thread? the topic certainly is.

you are quite concerned about Israel's image as an independent entity. Are you by chance a member of an organization dedicated to the support of Israel, such as AIPAC, for example? Are you compensated for your propaganda efforts?

I ask because Israel's dependent role requires that it cultivate its primary host very diligently. It cannot afford to loose public sympathy and jealously guards against bad publicity.

"Parasite" is not a kind designation, but for Israel, the shoe fits.

The following is quoted from Shirl McArthur, retired US foreign service officer and consultant in DC -

"Because of the uncertainties and ambiguities associated with U.S. aid to Israel, arriving at a precise figure for total direct U.S. aid to Israel probably is not possible. Parts of it are buried in the budgets of other government agencies—mostly the Defense Department (DOD)—or in a form not easily quantifiable—such as the early disbursement of aid, allowing Israel a direct gain and the U.S. Treasury a direct loss of interest on the unspent money. Given these caveats, the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (WRMEA) conservatively estimates cumulative total direct U.S. aid to Israel at $107.961 billion."

This is, of course, the on-the-record money, what can be ferreted out by those experts who know how to unscramble budget documents.

"Among the real benefits to Israel that are not direct costs to the U.S. taxpayer are the cash transfer of economic and military aid, in-country purchases of a portion of military aid, and loan guarantees. The U.S. gives Israel all of its economic and military aid directly in cash, with no accounting required of how the funds are used. Furthermore, Israel can spend 26.3 percent of the military aid in Israel, clearly a subsidy to the Israeli defense industry at the expense of American defense contractors. Other countries receiving U.S. military aid generally have to spend 100 percent of it in the U.S. Also in contrast with other countries receiving military aid, who must purchase through the DOD, Israel deals directly with U.S. companies."

From James P. Tucker at American Free Press -
(American Free Press) "U.S. aid to Israel has some unique
aspects, such as loans with repayment waived, or a pledge to provide Israel with economic assistance equal to the amount Israel owes the United States for previous loans," says a Library of Congress "briefing paper." This paper, Israel: U.S. Foreign Assistance, was prepared by the library's Congressional Research Service in April (2003) and is available to all congressmen. It confirms assessments made previously by American Free Press that blank-check aid to Israel costs taxpayers $10 billion a year. "Israel also receives special benefits that may not be available to other countries, such as the use of U.S. military assistance for research and development in the United States, the use of U.S. military assistance for military purchases in Israel, or receiving all of its assistance in the first 30 days of the fiscal year rather than in three or four installments as other countries do," the report said.

No nation with common sense has initiated an economic boycott against the US. This is called true love.

The only reliable relationship Israel has is with its primary host, the US. She has to keep herself looking really good so the US will keep paying her bills and defending her against the nasty Arabs, whom she scorns and abuses with impunity as a result. She gets away with murder because she knows she won't have to pay the piper.

Your job, vets, is to keep putting lipstick on a pig.

Thank you Umlaut, You are right.

As I explained earlier, sometimes, when I see one sided comments, I lose it, and I take the other side. I don't really want to see anyone hit by rockets.

The truth is probably someplace in the middle.

Yes, you are criticizing people advocating the destruction of Israel but you are also saying similar things which makes you a hypocrite.

The point of this is not to argue with you but to point out the contradiction in logic which I feel is at the heart of the Palestinian Israeli conflict.

Both sides demonstrate sociopathic qualities when they say I can fight against the evil on their side, but they can't against the evil on my side.

You're either saying that it's OK to hold the mirror up to the devil because you view only others as being the devil and that you and those you defend must therefor be angels. This black and white world especially doesn't hold water in the region we are here discussing let alone any reality in this universe.

Israelis have done horrible wrongs to Palestinians, Palestinians have done horrible wrongs to Israelis, but there is no one clean entity and one dirty in this issue.

Therefor one can not claim to hold a mirror up to the devil by doing something to another without giving them the same moral quality you give yourself by doing the same.

If you can play God and hold a mirror to the devil, so should others for their perceived devil or else you live in self contradiction and therefor are irrelevant and potentially a dangerous propagandist.

IMO neither should be uttering who deserves to be bombed, but the worse of the 2 is the one who does the same and criticizes the other for doing what they themselves also do.

Umlaut - You have me all wrong. I'm not criticizing progressive people. I'm criticizing a small minority of CommonDreams's Bloggers who are racist, mass murderers wannabes, who only think they are progressive.

I hope you will agree with me that the following comments that I've seen in this site are racists, and not progressive, and that they have no room in CommonDreams:

- Calls to Nuke Israel where the only down side is that also a few million Palestinian will die in this "positive" nuclear holocaust.
- Calls expel all Jews to Germany and Italy.
- Comments that permits war crimes against Jews, because they control the world finance.

All I did was holding the mirror against the devil so he could see his true face.

I apologize if I sounded harsh, but I have family in Israel, and I've lost my temper when hearing expatincebu suggesting to nuke them off the planet.

vets

You said,
________________________________________________________
expatincebu
"I sincerely hope someone will nuke Israel off the planet, and soon. The only downside is the numbers of hapless Palestinians that will be killed in the process."

Some people here are calling for a Genocide of 7.2 million innocent people in nuclear holocaust.

Is this a progressive site? or have I stepped into some kind of Nazi Christmas wish list
_________________________________________________________

In past you said:

vets quotes

"For you, I hope your house will be strike by daily by "stupid" "indiscriminately" rockets raids."

"If you look for someone to blame - blame the Palestinian leadership and the Arab league who rejected the UN partition plan. They could have a agree to UN resolution 181. However they thought it was not good enough, instead they took a gamble, and when for a war of annihilation against the Jews of Palestine, and they lost."

http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2007/06/17/1939/

...and you're criticizing other people's progressiveness?

OuterBeltway, I'm still on this thread, and am still puzzled by what words in my section d, prevent it from being published here. I'm lazy to rewrite the whole thing. Maybe after I go back from work.

The relationship of Israel to the United States is not one of ally to ally but one of parasite to host.

Unless I missed it, is there any statistic cited that shows that this industry has significantly taken over a good part of Israel's economy? I'd like to see a more direct causal link. It could be that almost every industrialized country in the world has shown the same growth in those areas of homeland security industry post 9/11.
I'm not saying I don't buy the premise, but the information cited is not complete.

Uzi:

Hope you're still on this thread. Thanks for all the effort to lay out your perspectives. Really good stuff.

OK, here comes the next round. In your remarks, you immediately rejected the notion of emigration of Jews to the U.S. (for example) and did not address at all the notion of "right of return". Nor did you address the concept that something of inestimable value had been wrongfully taken from the Palestinians, and that they were due redress equal to the expropriation. Then you mentioned that "pride" was preventing the other side from embracing the offers made by the Jewish side. Please take a moment to examine that "pride" premise in light of your deflection/out-of-hand rejection of these seemingly logical alternatives.

From my outsiders point of view, it seems that Jewish people have taken the position "we have it, never mind how we got it, now let's negotiate how we're going to keep it". This violates every fundamental premise of justice and fairness, and is an egregious, fulminating, open sore on the consciousness of Arabs. It needs to be addressed, and until it is fully addressed, I think there's little prospect of peace.

Having said that, I agree that direct Israeli-to-Arab interaction is the way to solve the problem. I also agree that the pride issue is a major, major obstacle, and is likely to be used at every turn by retrograde politicians, in the Arab world, in Israel, and certainly in the U.S.

Unfortunately, I have to pause here due to other demands on my time. I wanted to set out those concepts, and invite you respond at some point when convenient. I'll keep a lookout for your posts, and try to engage the issue again when next I see your work here at CommonDreams.

Best wishes.

ebcruser,

I agree with you. It would definitely help and is also important morally, but you should check that the funding and that the opening of the aid channels goes for this purpose, and not for funding other things, such as smuggling ammunition. Give them what they need to ease their life. Not money for what they need.

During the Oslo days, a lot of channels for helping the Palestinians were opened. Unfortunately, the leadership were busy more in spending money for the preparation for the war after. The assumption (including the Israeli assumption) was that if you give them a taste for normal life, they will have something to lose and thus they will prefer peace over fighting. This sight was not taking the difference between the east and the west. Most of the financial aid, and the opened borders were used mainly for smuggling ammunition, and thus Israel closed the borders, while risking at violating the agreement. So, while I still believe that you are right, you should check that the aid is an aid for easing their life, and not preparation of fightings.

Perhaps as much economic aid to the Palestinians as military aid provided Israel, or efforts to ease their poverty, would help.

d) has temporarilly been removed because for some reason the web site seem not to accept it. It is about the Israeli Palestinian conflict, and its roots.

e) Solutions.
e1) As you may guess, I do not find that it is a good solution to emigrate all Jews to e.g. the US.
e2) I can offer you a better solution which is also very hard to accomplish. Let the Palestinian stop thinking about pride and start thinking about how to improve their life. There is much place for life with mutual respect between Arabs and Israelis, once the Arabs accept Israel's right to exist as a home for the Jewish people. Once it is possible for the Jewish people not to be bothered with people who don't want them to exist, it is a matter of discussions about the details.
e3) but stating solutions without discussing the process is meaningless. In order to offer a good solution which respect both parties, one has to define a good solution that respect all sides, and then try to understand the social environment and the dynamic needed. As I said earlier, the Israelis are ready for compromise for a true peace. They might however not understand enough the Arab psychology.
The Arab side is too busy with its own justice, pride and hate, for trying to find such solutions. They too often shoot their own legs for that matter.

I see only one dynamic towards peace in this conflict, and it is a simple communication. Between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Not Negotiations. Talks. People to people. See the human side, see the other side. Negotiations won't succeed theses days without this kind of communication. A contribution from the media can help a lot.

As for the radical Islam, it is a different story. A change in some Muslim cultures may help (this mal-pride). Stopping the money chains that feed those organizations. The Radical Islam's influence is reduced if they are stressed in money.

As for your comment that your opinions are likely not to be the ones I like to "hear". You will be happy to know that you are wrong. I do like and appreciate you comments. I prefer them by far over slogans.

Part 1.

OuterBeltway - I wrote a very long response to you and now I see that it hasn't been published. It is too much for me to write everything again, so I'll try to make things shorter (and probably won't succeed):

a) The roots for the support of the radical Islam are various. But we should first put things into proportion:

a1) First, it is important to understand that the vast majority of the Arabs do not support the radical Islam. It rules not due to support from the masses but rather due to fear.
a2) Many Arabs have very bad opinions about Israel (in many Arab countries people are now educated to believe in the old antisemitic texts, and in other nonsenses). There is a lot of misinformation and disinformation.

a3) At the same time, many Arabs has less faith in the formal education system. Just that they are not exposed to other information.

a4) and still, most Arabs in Arab countries, are much less interested in this war against Israel. In fact, I find that there is much curiosity regarding Israel from other points of views. Many of them are interested to visit Israel and see how things look from the side of Israel.

b) So now, we may ask, then why do people join the radical Islam, and why it suceeds in exporting their beliefs.
b1) First, it could not succeed a few dozens years ago, for the same reason why nothing has spread as fast as in these years at those times. We live in an era where it is easier than ever to maintain an international system such as Al-Qaida. Things have their own dynamics, and this dynamics tends to feed itself.
b2) The second is indeed the despair. Where Despair rule, people can live with a brutal leaders as long as they give the sense that they can rule, and that they on "our" side (the people side).
b3) The third has to do with the culture in the Arab world. More specifically, with the issue of pride. What makes you proud? How much you are sensitive to pride issues. This root is similar to the one that why it is still common in many Muslim cultures to kill for the honor of their families.

b4) The other root could not stand on its own feet, but still contributes, and this has to do with a few interpretations of the Quran.

The radical Islamic leaders are not stupid. They know a thing or two about public affairs, as well as about tactics.

c) What this has to do with Israel?
c1) The hate against Israel perhaps started when a place in the midst of Arab countries is world-wide accepted to hold a state which is claimed to be the home of the Jewish people.
c2) A heavy attack against Israel is launched by its neighbours. The Israeli citizens have no where to run away so they stay and fight. The Palestinian residents have a place to run and thus they run away from the battle field. Later many of them will find that their original homes no longer there and that the place is now , and they demand it back. Some of them accepted and recognized the state of Israel, and got an Israeli citizenship and their homes. Others did not. Land is important in many Arabic cultures. I know an Arabic who sold land and got a lot of money for it, and purchased other land with this money. He treats both lands as his, even though he has nothing against those who purchased it.
c3. The radical Islam definitly used and abused the hate towrds Israel while trying to warm it up as much as they could. It feeds them. It unifies them. A common enemy is very good for getting support from the people.

c4) I have no idea why it happened but there is a lot of completely false common wisdom in many Arab countries (I didn't see it among Arabs who live in western countries). I was shocked to see how the old antisemitic beliefs were learned adopted in many Arab countries.

c5) Israel is not the main root for the Islamic radicalism, but they are using everything they can, and a common enemy is very good for unification.

to be contd.

cruxpuppy - "From Richard Curtiss:
"Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that "Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid."

According to the State department:
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/79307.pdf
The total aid Israel will receive in 2007 will be $2.5 Billion and not $3 Billions. Check your sources, maybe the numbers provided by the US state department are more reliable than the numbers provided by Richard Curtiss.

Also, out of these $2.5 Billions, $2.04 is military aid, that Israel can only spend on American weapons, and which immediately goes right back to the US weapons - industrial complex, generating US jobs, and fueling the US economy. So you can look at these numbers as a $2.04 Billions subsidy to Boeing and Northrop and not only as aid to Israel.

cruxpuppy - "grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000."
If your brother signed for you a guarantee for a $300,000 mortgage - No one, will say that he gave you $300,000.. Unless your name is Israel.

$2 billion was in federal loan guarantees. This is NOT a $2 Billion gift, and should not be accounted as $2 Billion gift. It is a guarantee to pay out loans. Without it, Israel would have had to take loans in the free markets at a higher interest (maybe 0.5% higher, maybe less). That benefit is worth a maybe $20 millions, which brings the actual total aid to $2.52 Billions.

Any professional accounted who does NOT apply creative play with the numbers would have said:
Israel receive $2.5 Billions aid, and 2 Billion loan guarantees which enable Israel to pay ~$10 Millions less on the interest, together, these benefits are equivalent to a $2.52 Billions.

Saying that Israel receive $5.5 Billions / year is a fictional scratch of all accounting rules.

cruxpuppy - "total subsidy Israel receives above and beyond the 1/3 of total US foreign aid"
According to US state department, Iraq have received 18 Billions of aid (2004). Israel potion of total US foreign aid is between 7% and 8% of the total number. Far less than the imaginary 1/3 you are lead to believe. (Again I urge you - Check the numbers yourself. Don't take my word for it)

cruxpuppy - "The so-called peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan..."

What is your problems? Almost all the Canadians I spoke with hate Americans. All the Brits spoke with hate Americans. Does it mean that the relation between the States and my other two examples are defined as "so-called peace"?
Facts remains that there was no war with Jordan since 1967, and no war with Egypt since 1973. There are embassies and tourists from both sides cross the borders daily.
I'm sure that some Egyptians and Jordanians hates Israelis. However, how would you know that most Egyptians and Jordanians hates Israelis? Have you been there? Have you asked them? I was in Egypt. And I talked to some. If this was true, then how would you explain that many Israeli tourists goes to Egypt and Jordan and loves it? (saying that the people are friendly)? How would you explain that many of the Egyptians I met (Even here in N. America) said that they would love to visit Israel. (Some of them did)

Also if the "so-called" peace with Egypt and Jordan are not enough for you, How about the close alliance relationships with Turkey (Another local power), Morocco, Tunis, some of the golf countries and other moderate Arab countries?
My point was that the word "completely" is not in place.

cruxpuppy - "Israel is desperate as a result and its relationship with the US is actively parasitical"
"parasitical" is a very poor word choice. Would you say that every one who receive aid is a parasite? Does the "parasitical" rule apply only to Israel, or would you wish to dismantle all social care that support any "Parasite" that receive aid?

Paul Bramscher, based on the information contained in your post, it strikes me that the increased surveillance is more about the security of the administration than of the students. On the one hand, they want to cya in the event something unfortunate would happen. On the other, there is a fundamental distrust and probably fear of the "mob", in this case the students.

Uzi:

OK, we're making progress here toward the central issues. First, I grant your assertion that radical Islam is a problem today. I'll add that it's a much bigger problem today than it was, say, 20 or 30 years ago. And it's something we need to address, and by addressing it *as we have to date*, we become magnets for more trouble.

Why is it that Islam is tending toward the radical? Is it because Arabs, or Islam, is incapable of operating in a functioning democracy, or with any form of liberal government?

Suppose for second that so-called "moderate" Arab nations, such as UAE, for example, could reasonably be expected to flourish, if conditions were right for it.

What would those "conditions" be? Would they be territorial incursions from without? Would having dictators installed for the sole purpose of expediting resource extraction help the development of moderate government? Of course, both of these factors are obstacles to the development of stable societies, but that's pretty much been the story of the Arab world this past century.

When all of the normal social and cultural development mechanisms are systematically subverted or destroyed from without, whatever institution left standing (Islam, for example) is called upon to do a lot of heavy lifting. If, after 100 years of oppression, some aspects of this last remaining social institution morphs into a cult resistance group, like, say, the Stern Gang, or Irgun, it should surprise no one.

I think that's basically where we are now. The genie has mutated into a hostile genie, and now we need to do something about it. You raised the specter of "letting them eat Israel". That's an apocalyptic end state that I believe is very unlikely. There are some other options:

a. Grant right of return or cash compensation to the Palestinian refugees. Acknowledge that something valuable was stolen, and make good on it. That, of course, would result in Israel no longer being of, by, and for Jews. Most other countries are not of, by and for one religion. Is that so bad?

b. Emigrate to places where Jews are wanted. What about the U.S., for example? This is a pretty hospitable place for Jews, right? Canada, most of Europe, Australia...I think there are some places that would work

I could go on, but instead I'll just offer the principle: don't inflict on others what you suffered. Use your talents to reduce global injustice, not increase it. Then there's no downside for Americans, or anyone else to question their open-ended, somewhat irrational commitment to Israel.

Your serve. BTW, thanks for your even-handed, thorough response to my prior posts. I know what I'm saying is exactly not what you want to hear, but...I appreciate your efforts to be civil.

vets -

the welfare payment you mention is grossly understated.

From Richard Curtiss:
"Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that "Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid." That's true. But it's still a lie. The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000."

And this is not the whole picture. Israel is subsidized in a variety of ways that do not appear in government documentation. It is part and parcel of the US military/industrial synergism. Supplemental budgets give Israel all the cluster bombs it can use.

Private sector support endows preferential status upon our colonial wunderkind. The Israeli lobby is very effective.

It would be difficult, if not impossible to put a number on the total subsidy Israel receives above and beyond the 1/3 of total US foreign aid that can be specified, more or less.

The goodwill Israel has generated in the neighborhood is reflected by the long standing Arab economic boycott.

The so-called peace agreements with Egypt and Jordan have been bought with US foreign aid. To claim that these represent viable Israeli relationships with its neighbors is just, pardon me, vets, willful ignorance. Jordan is a Palestinian refugee camp. The anti-Israeli Egyptian population can only be checked by the Mubarak dictatorship.

The possibility that Israel could survive on its own has been precluded by its failure to build any sustainable relationships with its neighbors.

Israel is desperate as a result and its relationship with the US is actively parasitical. Like a pugnacious bad boy who just can't get along in this world, Israel must beg, borrow, and steal the means for its survival.

And this is not to say that Israel could not become a viable state. Truly, the Jews are an exceptional human group with more moxie per capita than many others one can think of. It is ironic and pathetic how badly they have bungled this attempt at nation building.

OuterBeltWay -

Indeed by fighting against terrorism (with or without quotes, depending on your system of beliefs) you put yourself in front of its attention. Here you have the explanation for the remark you made.

But if you think that by stepping aside and letting them eat Israel, you have brought peace to the world or solved your problems, then I think differently. It is quite the opposite:

Since WWII almost all of the violent clashes in the world involved the radical Islamic organizations. In India, Sudan, Indonesia, Afghanistan, Nigeria, some SU states. Most of the wars have drawn very little attention, even though they were very cruel. About half of them were between Muslims and Muslims. The radical Islamic organizations warmed up the attacks not because of Israel. They did it because they could. Most of those wars were about religious hegemony.

Israel is not an empire wanting to spread. They took lands during wars that were declared against them, and back in 2000, they offered over 95% of those lands back as part of a final peace agreement. This offer was rejected by the Palestinian president Arafat. I believe that it was because for the first time, Israel insisted that the negotiations will be for the final peace agreement and not for intermediate steps.

Israel, as we know it, would not exist if it were not underwritten primarily by the US. ( see fd32's post, and others) In other words, it cannot stand on its own legs.

The success of any sovereign nation is measured in its ability to make it on its own through its adaptive skill and its cooperative relationships with its neighbors.

Israel has failed completely to establish any sustainable local foundation and therefore is not a true sovereign state.

It is a creature of US imperial policy and is more like a semi-autonomous US military base than an independent political entity.

Through its aggression, arrogance, and contempt for its neighbors, it has guaranteed its own perpetual insecurity.

Necessity is the mother of invention. Without violence, war, and its apartheid strategy for survival Israel would have no economy worthy of mention.

The viability of Israel is entirely founded on its super power client status. It has all the inventive genius of a desperate parasite.

Very impressive.

Ken - Believe me - the vast majority of the Israelis share this view. No Israeli enjoy this life under threat just because it helps the homeland security export.

The solution is political and even more than that - social - not militaristic. But in the meanwhile you cannot see missiles launched upon Sderot and not fight back against those who shoot the missiles.

I believe that Abu Abbas wanted to reach a true peace agreement with Israel. I also believe that this was the reason why he lost the support of the people. The Palestineans lost hope. The big question the Israelis face is how to offer hope back without risking yourself of being exposed to terror. The Oslo process was one such effort, but it failed.

uzi - so if I understand you, what you are saying is Israel's youth are high-tech savvy and full of new ideas, and this should be considered a positive thing. OK.

But, I hope this. I hope that some of these savvy youth recognize that ongoing military conflict is ultimately a "dead-end business" and bad for local business in general. Come to think of it, shouldn't we all have this view?

Peace,
Ken Hausle
* I support HRes333 - Impeach the VP

I feel that there is much "between the lines" in this article which I do not accept.

Israel indeed has a prospering economy. This also has to do with the life in Israel... your ability to find effective solutions to security threats is much better when your life depends on finding them. But while the security threats in the US or other countries is not a matter of their existence. For Israel - it is. This is something that many people do not realize. While Israel can be tough at the Palestineans and this is a sad thing, it is those who fight against Israel, who do not accept Israel's right to exist. It is practically almost impossible (if at all) to negotiate agreements for peace that will respect all parties rights, when one of the parties educate their children from age zero that the fight against the other party, is holly and that the other party has no right to exist.

Israel's export in missiles is not known for its destructiveness, it is known for its accuracy. Israel's, radar solutions are meant for offering better accuracy, not for causing more harm.

But Naomi is right that Israel's export is based also on the conflict.

Yet, Thomas Friedman is also right. The investment in funding Israeli startups, and the fact that there are so many young people in Israel who want to become part of the high-tech industry, takes a big role. We are not talking about the security industry in specific - the total high tech export in Israel is much bigger than its military part.
Many other high-tech industries in Israel prospered in recent years. Many of the biggest high tech leaders opened or extended their centers of R&D in Israel. This is not because of security. It is in spite of security.

jhoffman555 - now that I've done a bit of research on Loose Change, I think I better understand your questions....

You know Ms. Klein concludes her article saying: "fear, it turns out, is the ultimate renewable resource" - Is this not a depressing statement about the current times?

I long for a time when education was viewed as the ultimate renewable resource. Think of how much better society could be if quality education was truly valued. Is it not obvious that education "pays out" over the long term for all People, whereas, fear is only "profitable" for those who are pushing it.

Of course, the other thing about fear, is if you "believe" in its power, then it can and usually does consume you particularly if you have been a "fear profiteer".

Peace,
Ken Hausle
* I support HRes333 - Impeach the VP
***** time is of the essence *****

Outerbeltway: While Israel is guilty of many things, it is certainly NOT the only player in the Middle East debacle. You should check out what Paul Bramscher has to say about key power players. Keep in mind the US has supported NUMEROUS dictatorships around the world, and our own national history involves the co-optation of others' lands. So if you want to point the singular punitive finger at Israel, it's unfair. I do NOT agree with Israel's policies, nor do I believe Israel is the CAUSE behind the Iraqi debacle. It may be ONE factor of many, and it's important to maintain a context that recognizes the plurality of factors that come to play in a situation this serious.

I don't know about ya'll, but I've been SO expecting an outcome just like this its not even funny. Two Palestinian states, one controlled by Fatah in the West Bank and one controlled by Hamas in Gaza. I SO saw that one coming!

Ken -
Fair question.

I am curious about the context Loose Change is shown in a classroom. Loose Change, a film I admire, is, I think everyone can agree, an incendiary film that takes a radical point of view. I think exposing 10th graders to Loose Change is fine, but (were I the teacher) I would follow it up with the oft-quoted "Debunking" that Popular Mechanics published.

It is a local matter, certainly, but I doubt that many classrooms besides giaschi's is showing the film -- I'm curious to know the context and reaction. (Also curious to know how giaschi defended his/herself if asked "why is this being shown in an "English" class -- shouldn't the kids be reading Jane Austen??)

jhoffman555,

You asked a question on a public forum, so now I want to ask you a question:

Why are you curious if the "PTA" knows a film was shown by giaschi?
Are you part of this PTA? If so, you should know. If not, why are you asking - isn't this really a local matter?

Your other questions seemed interesting to me even though I don't know anything about the movies referenced.

Peace,
Ken Hausle
* I support HRes333- Impeach the VP

giaschi -
I love the movie "True Stories," but remind me what is distressing about it? Fun music, quirky set pieces, William Eggleston-esque photography, Spalding Grey? Please elaborate. What evil is exposed in "True Stories" other than dated-looking fashion and video technique?

I also hope you didn't present "Loose Change" as fact. Presenting "Loose Change" as alternative theory, food-for-thought, an example of grass roots filmmaking, sure. . .I'm curious to know how it was presented and received? (And if the PTA knows you showed it.)

Great exposure of the money making opportunities that totalatarian states create. For a look at how billions are spun from U.S./Israel complicity with gangsters please check out the new Exxon oil gusher(Equatorial Guinea) off the west coast of Africa. The leadership of that long suffering nation is protected by; yup an Israel security outfit.Their reintroduction to the just and democractic nations of the world was in some strange way (oil conferences in Haifa) sponsered by Israel. America for almost ten years had no diplomatic ties with this tiny corpse of a nation due to it's human rights record. Oh, Exxon's record windfall profits are certainly not related to the recent (since Iraq oil went down) gusher of the sweetest crude of this small and I mean small oil rich "county of texas". The president of the place has granted a sweetheart deal to our oil corps. I am sure the deal had nothing to do with the C.I.A. thwarting a plot to unseat him! Maybe the next business frontier for an enterprising Israeli will be body parts from Gaza or the prisons of Equatorial Guinea. Marathon oil and a brit outfit are their too! The whole family seems to work together to extort, pillage and manipulate. What a disgrace that we accept money from these guys for our venerable institutions. (blood leaves no stain on $ bills)

As an end-of-semester 'prize,' I just showed my Grade 10 English class the film 'True Stories' - a film by David Byrne...it was distressing, to say the least, to recognize that nothing has changed at all in the 25 years since the film was made. These students have also seen 'Apocalypse Now,' 'Bowling For Columbine,' and 'Loose Change.'
They get it now.

As usual, Klein has found the heart of darkness: money.
Student comment: "It just seems so bleak."
I recommend an essay by Edward Bond entitled 'The Dramatic Child' for its understanding of what has been done to us and our 'culture.'
Thanks, Naomi Klein, for continuing to speak. We all need you.

I think the sentiment against Israel has its basis in these facts:

* Israel forcibly removed about a million people from their homes. The Palestinians' land was stolen from them
* These Palestinians are not going away quietly; they are causing immense political damage to the perpetrators of the theft
* Israel and it supporters have carefully and successfully maneuvered the U.S. into the position of singular supporter of this theft
* This U.S. support causes the U.S. to inherit all the political and economic damage related to this theft
* A significant percentage of U.S. citizens perceive these facts, and vigorously object to them
* These facts persist because Israel and its supporters in the U.S. currently have enough political and economic power to maintain the status quo

These conditions will persist until the U.S. weakens, politically, economically, or militarily. As long as the U.S. stays in Israel's tar-pit, we continue to weaken, and hasten the day of reckoning for Israel.

For me, the source of the rage is to see my country, which has such great potential, to be reduced to serving as a thug in a 50-year gangland-style turf war.

Think of all the grand things we could have accomplished with the outpouring of money, attention, energy and effort we've lavished on Israel over the past 50 years. If that effort had been directed toward energy independence, or climate change or education of poor people, those problems would have been solved. Instead, we have ... Israel.

Yay.

Nuke Israel? Hate is hate, and there is as much of it here, spread around I might add, as there is at any Nazi rally. That isn't progressive politics, just hate.

I'm not sure why the entire world does not recognize that the Palestinians are locked up in giant open air prisons with the IDF acting as the diabolical prison guard. Or maybe they do understand and it just doesn't serve their interests to give a damn.

If Hajja Romi represents a typical loyal reader if Klein, I am happily placing myself outside this cycle.

Hajja - you are reading too much sci-fi.

Hajji - "It's not to keep Mexicans OUT: that's as phoney as a three-dollar bill. It's to keep Americans IN."

LMFAO! This is the best entertainment site in the web. Do you wear the tinfoil hat as well? And those chemtrails in the sky with the government poisioning you? You sound like someone on Art Bell's paranoid alien take over radio show in some bizzaro back-to-front universe.

Thanks for the laugh!

Hats off to Naomi Klein! She is absolutely right!

Example: The head of Homeland Security in the US is a dual US/Israel citizen. (By a special act of Congress, only citizens of Israel can be dual US/israeli citizens.) This alone should tell us something. The fact that he left hundreds of poor black US citizens to suffer and drown during Katrina shows he doesn't care about OUR country and its citizens.

Example: Under Chertoff, the US is buiding a fence (by the same folks that built the fence in Palestine, if I'm not mistaken). It's not to keep Mexicans OUT: that's as phoney as a three-dollar bill. (Although they have Lou Dobbs on CNN yapping about "illegal immigrants" every night.)

It's to keep Americans IN.

That's MY opinion, at any rate. Just wait and see. They're getting the FEMA camps ready, too, once they have us caged. You think the FEMA camps are for illegal immigrants? Some people think they're DEATH CAMPS. Or, maybe like Klein says, just for experimenting (like the Nazi doctors did, maybe?) Guantanamo is just the beginning.

If Naomi Klein will not delete the comment of expatincebu, I sure will get rid of all her books. Enough is enough.

Or maybe it is better to leave it there, so we all know what is the real motivation behind this unreal hate against a legitimate country. In the last few days the Gazan people has proved us what they capable of doing; Israel has a pull right to defend itself for those animals; Why Naomi is silent over the massacre that Hammas is performing in Gaza in their brothers? Why she is not writing about the Egyptians who allowed Hammas to accumulate weapon and ammunition?

Where is your moral Naomi?

Vets: thank you for enlightening expatincebu.

Bravo to Ms. Klein! This is so 'on target'. It makes perfect sense. And is profoundly frightening and tragic...

One of my other posts here which got eaten was about the book by Edwin Black entitled "Transfer Agreement". Evidently some back-room dealing was done between carnivores at the top of each side, and basically begged for a new form of fascism -- minus the anti-semitism after WWII. The problem lies with neither Americans nor Jews in general, rather it is an unholy pact entertained by the world's richest men, and the xenophobia, dogma and chauvinism they cultivate among their enclaves, the bottom 99%.

Regarding Hillary you are correct jhoffman she's just as bad as what we currently have and beholden to the same neocon pro-Israel lobby: http://www.antiwar.com/frank/?articleid=10372

Yes, we give Egypt money because they signed a peace treaty with Israel. This treaty keeps a very unpopular Hosni Mubarak in power too. The Egyptian people don't like Mubarak. Egypt must pay back the aid it is given. Israel's loans are waived thanks to AIPAC's lobbying efforts. Every dollar given to Egypt also must be spent according to US rules and regulations and must be accounted for. Israel gets money with no strings attached and no accountability. Israel recieves more foreign aid than the whole of Africa. The per capita income of many African nations is only a few hundred dollars and the per capita income of Israel is around $25,000.

http://www.nhpeaceaction.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=1

dcbeltway- If only our 5 billion a year went so far in Egypt.

I sincerely hope someone will nuke Israel off the planet, and soon. The only downside is the numbers of hapless Palestinians that will be killed in the process.

misanthrope -
No, Israel is not always the victim. They are, in fact, the Victors. They won their independence in 1948 & expanded their territory under threat in 1967. And they did it the American way - by fighting for it. Jackboots my eye -- wars are fought and territory is taken. Every other country is allowed to do it except Israel. Why not give California to the Mexican? Or New York City to the Lenni Lenape?

Man, the arch-left just goes nuts over the subject of Israel! When Hillary is elected President you'll hate her as much as Bush, won't you? Check yourself, people, before you blame the current Hamas v. Fatah rigamarole on Olmert & Sharon (whose been in a coma ever since he forced the Israeli settlers out of Gaza, mind you. . . .)

This Naomi Klein is really one heck of an amazing writer ! Kudos to her !

Fondisblu--Well since American taxpayers gave Israel 9 billion dollars this past year and America has given 108 billion dollars since 1949 to Israel their economy better be doing well since we all are paying for it!

I say not one penny more for the Israeli welfare receipiants !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fd32: Good points. Well, here's our Brave New world, a Hesse-like Steppenwolf hall of mirrors, with "everyone's watching you." Paranoia is BIG business, and by my stellar count, gonna rise even more over the next 2 years. The authoritarians love it, the more fear and terror their policies can foment, the more they can say, "You see! Look at all the violence! We'd better prepare!" And what a sorry violence begets violence feeding frenzy follows; and that doesn't even begin to speak of the wreckage of souls that sell out to these anti-life paradigms marketed under one religious brand or another. The Gods must be going crazy!

In Iraq, the American occupiers are often referred to as "the Jews," and Abu Ghraib was known as "the Jewish prison." Since there is no "God" and the Jews are not His "Chosen People" and He did not, therefore, grant them permanent title to Israel, the United Nations would have saved everybody a good deal of trouble if, following World War II, they would have declared the State of Israel in Bavaria or Austria instead of Palestine. The Germans actually owed them.

jhoffman555-Not suprising that you don't understand Naomi Klein's outrage. Anything for a buck, right? And Israel is always the victim, even with it's jackboot on the neck of the Palestinians. Disgusting!

Friedman, as usual, invents his copy out of whole cloth and thus, continues to be undeserving of any serious attention. But Ms. Klein also conveniently fails to mention a few interesting and hard to miss points.

Israel is living off of American and German taxpayers and has been for a very long time. The three billion dollar per year pricetag, which pretends to be the sum total of our annual aid package, is a bad joke. The tab is many times that amount in undiscoverable "gifts", compliments of a defenseless gaggle of traitorous pimps in Washington. You may also assume that every defense and security and high-tech company in Israel with something to sell America, good, bad or indifferent, will find a willing buyer so long as Michael Chertoff and his ilk have anything to say about spending your money. The bundles of goodies, from "loans" earmarked never to be repaid, to "credits" for endless shopping sprees, to military equipment of the most sophisticated and expensive kinds,compliments of American taxpayers, should rightfully be included in any discussion of Israel's "miracle" economy. Add to this the pressures and emoluments built into the laws and tax codes to favor investment in Israel.One wonders how they could avoid having a thriving economy despite their self-inflicted problems.

But Ms. Klein is correct in pointing at violence as being at the core of Israel's economy, much as it is in America's economy. We are, after all, the largest exporter of killing machines on earth. In fact, weapons are our number one export. Ditto, Israel. There is sickness and devilment here. We, the voiceless citizenry who are paying for all of this, are trapped underneath it. The world is watching and their post 9/11 sympathy long ago ran dry. They are scared, angry and flabbergasted by what Israel has done to America and the consequences of it all. As they should be.

Very interesting article -- but I don't quite understand Naomi Klein's outrage.

Figure you are a 22 yr old Israeli kid graduating from college with a technical degree. Wanna make some dough? Why not get a little from those dopey Americans and their kooky new Homeland Security bill? Why is creating a newfangled security cam an evil act? Or has it gotten to the point that every time an Israeli blows his nose the American left has to criticize?

We on the left here in America need to check ourselves once in a while. Our Israel-hatred is making a mockery of some of our better writers.

Isreal is succeeding at revitalizing their economy by the utilization of their citizens brainpower. This could be an object lesson to the other middle eastern countries. How many of the other countries in this sector of the world support engineering and other hard sciences in their academic curriculum? How many other countries support the creation of viable new business ideas as Isreal. It is for this reason that the Isreali economy is larger than most any state in the area, even without any natural resources. The idea that isreal is threatened from without is not paranoia, read the Hamas charter. If some individuals decide to create companies that answer a need for security, I say good for them.

"Palestinians...are no longer just targets. They are guinea pigs."

Would that be like the indigenous people of North America--and everywhere else that Empire has reared its ugly pillaging, plundering, and genocidal hydra-head? One need look no further than the experience of the original victims of the grand experiment known as "America" to understand what is at the heart of this recurring tragedy.

How soon we forget our own history and how easily we cling to the falsehoods and myths created by the conquerors! Would the repetition of these "field tests" be possible if good people around the world were more educated, more conscious, and less willing to accept authority?

I very much support the previous posts. (And yes, -Naomi is ever to be trusted with her brill reportage).

Fear immobilises... at a time when we (the progressives) need to be very much more mobile and active, and countering the mania of those who seek to enslave humanity and keep us locked into their ne'er-do-well nightmarish scenarios.

They are anti-life vampires, -ever posing as civilised, but in reality seeking to usurp any and all civilised, peaceful, or wholesome way of life.

Let's never be cowed by fear.

Let's realise that our steadfast courage is a major blow to their dire plans and machinations. Let's stand up and be counted and ensure we limit their madness and barbarities of war ~

ASAP...

Naomi, as usual, is brillian.

Paul: I second your post, and I think many are starting to figure out that the fear is being manufactured, and a whole bunch of People are fed up with it.

You mention a "lost boat", and I think (maybe I should say I hope) there are "members in the boat" who are really trying to "turn it around safely" for the sake of everyone.

We can hope.

Peace,
Ken
* I support HRes333 - Impeach the VP
***** time is of the essence *****

Here in the US, at least, large segments of our culture are fickle, forgetful, and (due to television, the internet, etc.) probably have fairly short attention spans. So even fear itself will go out of vogue when the public tires with it. It's mainly just an excuse for the warmongers to obtain large black hole budgets. I don't see a lot of evidence of intense fear on the streets.

I need turn no further than the big-10 university campus I graduated from, and now work at. Security cameras are metastasizing all over the place the past couple years. The demand for them has not really been grassroots from students, staff or faculty to my knowledge. So perhaps fear is more of an ultimate (and manufactured) "excuse" than a resource. It's also indicative of a wider social breakdown. If we now need technology surrogates to ensure our safety, we've lost the boat somewhere along the way.

cruxpuppy: "Israel, as we know it, would not exist if it were not underwritten primarily by the US."

Do you have any prof for that "fact"?

Israel GDP (Official Exchange Rate): $140.3 Billion (2006 Est.)
The total US aid to Israel (Military and civil) is: $2.5 Billion Which is less than 2% of the Israeli GDP.
http://fpc.state.gov/documents/organization/79307.pdf

Will Israel suffer a reduced standard of living if this aid is lost - Yes.
Will Israel stop to exist? Well - I think this is far fetched theory... Will you stop to exists if your house income is dropped by 2%?

cruxpuppy: "Israel has failed completely to establish any sustainable local foundation "
Israel made successful peace agreements with some of the moderate Arab states such as Egypt and Jordan, and it has diplomatic relationship with others. "completely" ???

cruxpuppy - Your word choice such as "desperate parasite" to describe a group of people, remind me the word choice during some of the darkest chapters in human History.

SiouxRose:

I agree with your points: Israel's theft of land from its neighbors was a common tactic of territorial expansion, that Israel was one major, but not singular reason for the Iraq war.

As a defense of Israel, that's faint praise indeed, even if that was the entire extent of the situation. But it isn't the entire scope, by a long shot.

The U.S.' foreign "entanglement" with Israel is, and always has been, the most expensive, divisive and disruptive foreign relationship we've had, by a very large margin.

The subject article raised the point that our "special" relationship with Israel has now taken another ugly turn: now we're learning from the masters how to establish and run a garrison state. We inherited the Arab world's rage by associating with Israel*, and now we import rage-suppression technology from Israel to "protect ourselves" from "terrorism".

Dumb and dumber. I don't think anyone could devise a stupider situation to put a country into, and yet, preposterously, here we are.

------------------

* You'll likely remind me that there are other reasons for the Arabs to despise us, just as they despise, say, Great Britain. And you'd be right.

As an aside, I note that the three countries that the Arabs object to most are Israel, the U.S. and Great Britain. What do those three countries have in common?