well said, as usual, pierre t! americans would do well to remember that in the history of this country, elites have always divided the working class against itself, mostly based on race, whether it's the blacks or the irish or whoever. here we go again. it's the global 99% vs. the 1%. the only way to lose is to let them pit us against each other.

Immigrants, legal or otherwise, have helped the US economy because they have supplied cheap labor. Many formerly high paying union jobs, in meat packing, for example, have shifted to low-paying non-union jobs because of cheaper immigrant labor. Meat-packing used to be some of the highest paid blue collar work, and for good reason. It's rigorous and dangerous. Today, it's harder and more dangerous than ever, yet the pay is lower! Adjusted for inflation, meatpacking wages have declined dramatically (like many blue collar jobs). Low skilled natives resent immigrants who work at these jobs for so little pay. The resentment is misdirected but understandable because it has cut blue collar wages. The cure is strong unions, which legalization would foster. Forget what meatpackers or the other business say about the current system: they like it because illegals are afraid to organize and can therefore be easily expoloited.

Who are these hate and fear filled racists and bigots? They are ALL conservatives. When will demonized liberals stop glorifying "old" conservatives, confounding their definition and shooting themselves in the foot? A careful, frugal, considerate liberal does not an authoritarian, wasteful and violent conservative make.

What these people cost remains our lasting burden.

As I have said before and will repeat here we as a nation in order to possess any legitimacy in our policy of any kind must focus our money, time, energy and policy on making sure every american has access to jobs, shelter, nutrition, health care, and akk other aspects of our society before we worry about one person outside this nation. In simple terms every single american first. No ifs nads or buts every american first.

Why do you fail to see your own people in the streets, In the emergency room to get care, hungry, unemployed, bankrupt?

To hard to look at eh truth?

This is a cute distraction but the truth is it hurts americans and that is unacceptable.

When we care for our people without reservation thjen we can take whatever remains and help others.

A country which fails to do this is hardly a country worth dying for.

freeranger,

Agreed, but it has always been this way.

In my neck of the woods, the resentments between the English/Welsh descended coal miners and the later arriving Italian, Polish and E. European miners - brought in to bust the unions, hindered orgainzing for years.

The movie "Matewan" handles this issue well.

These stinking racists. How dare they criticize white employers who illegally hire brown skinned workers at sub human wages? What Chutzpah. How dare they criticize the upper middle class type of reader Commondreams is aimed at who can't be bothered to hire an American nanny, gardner, or maid. Republicans! How dare these stinking American Citizens who have a family member in immigration limbo because they followed the rules be upset that a bunch of illegals are about to jump the line. These stinking white people who bring up inconvenient truths like how janitors in Los Angeles used to be almost all black union members earning a middle class living, and are now NOT black, and earning starvation wages.

"Monique Thibodeaux, whose name suggests her American origins don't quite date back to the Jurassic . . . "

The writer should get a clue. Thibodeaux is a common name among American Indians -- whose ancestors interacted with French explorers and fur traders in the 1600s, long before the United States even existed. So Monique Thibodeaux can probably trace her heritage back to the earliest Americans, quite the opposite of what the writer would have us believe.

The rest of his corporate globalist propaganda is beneath contempt and not worthy of comment, except to say that those who advocate for wage-slaves are the real bigots.

It is a mistake to refer to the avaricious lice at the head of our government as an elite.

Isn't it ironic that the only people who could afford to have themselves cloned have no redeeming graces?

It's true and so very sad.

The racist hate speech that I've been reading (but not hearing) lately is truly shocking. Where is the compassion? Where is the reason?

Oh, once in the while, there will be assurances that it's only the ILLLEGAL immigrants that the writer doesn't like or want, but in the next breath/keystroke, the write is referrring to all Mexicans as gangmembers and welfare mothers! I'm sickened by these statements. The ignorance and ugly prejudice is shameful. It's downright UnAmerican!

mfskinner, powerslave, and bob k, the phone is ringing, it's a clue phone, and it's for you.

mexicans flocking over the border are victims of the same global corporatist agenda that are driving down wages, destroying the social safety net, etc., all over the world. NAFTA, etc. is destroying the possibility of even subsistence living for many mexicans, so here they come. easy to blame the mexicans, and say you are defending the natives. you can build a new wall of china on the border, keep out all new "illegals," deport the current "illegals," and in 10 years your wages will still be plummeting, your jails filling, your healthcare unaffordable, etc., etc. and what will you have to show for it? hatred for brown people, a still impoverished citizenry, and an ever growing national security state to keep tabs on and kick out the "illegals."

what your government is willing to do to the peoples of other countries (via war, trade, whatever), it will soon do to its own citizens. what your gov't does to immigrants, it will soon do to its own citizens. you can't be for "justice" for the natives and screwing over everybody else. fuck you and your nationalist xenophobia.

jed zach, right on dude (non-gender implied dude). who are the natives anyway? Aren't they all dead or living on reservations? I'm not even an Israelite so I am not one of gods chosen people, jeez am I fuct. Might have to spend eternity in Elysium, tipping cows no doubt. think i'll go wave a flag, or something. sarcasm is useful sometimes. you hit the nail on the head.

Jedediah: I think you make a good point. On other posts we've at length discussed the degree to which NAFTA has pushed out the Mexican farmer off his own land in pursuit of some kind of income. Between climate change predicted events and the offshoring of jobs, this era might as well be characterized as "the great migration phase."

"the population of the United States by one estimate is projected to reach half a billion."

Considering American consumption rates, is this really a good thing? Am I a "bigot" or "xenophobe" for wanting to preserve the environment? Are shopping malls really an improvement over forests? Is tract housing better than a field? Are the roads where Mr. Tristam lives not already crowded enough? And after 2050, where next? Should America shoot for a cool billion?

"we're constantly reminded of record stock gains, record corporate profits, low inflation, low unemployment and low interest rates."

I'm sure American workers will be comforted knowing they've sacrificed their prosperity and country so Mr. Tristam can make lots and lots of money in the stock market. The fact is most Americans are affected indirectly at best by the stock market. Most Americans depend upon their job to support themselves, and I noticed Mr. Tristam wasn't brazen enough to suggest that immigration has been good for the wages of the average American.

Whether we like it or not, the law of supply and demand definitely applies to immigration. And an economist named George Borjas has been studying the effects of immigration on the economy for many years. Mr. Borjas has found repeatedly that mass immigration lowers wages for the most vulnerable among us. He has also found that mass, low-skilled immigration eats into government budgets voraciously, meaning there is less money for good programs that help Americans. Since I'm not an economist myself, it's only fair to note that I can't pronounce with any authority that Mr. Borjas is correct. But what qualifications does Mr. Tristam have to refute Mr. Borjas' findings? That he's an opinion journalist?

I just don't understand the hatred for Americans that people such as Mr. Tristam nakedly display. I especially don't understand since the government programs so many of us admire will become deluged with foreign applicants, and then will become a thing of the past as American workers become too poor to pay the taxes to support such things.

When compared with Mr. Tristam, the Republicans of the Gilded Age start looking pretty good. Gilded Age Republicans only wanted Americans to lift themselves up by their own bootstraps. Mr. Tristam obviously wants Americans to strangle themselves with their own bootstraps.

THANK YOU Jedediah !!
Well said, it is wonderful to hear someone else who shares the same thoughts.
THANKS AGAIN!

The writer should get a clue. Thibodeaux is a common name among American Indians...

sure 'nuff - her picture here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/10/washington/10oppose.html?pagewanted=1&hp

But this is all completely besides the point.

Tristam fails to understand the economic realities of one race turning on another. When he states that it is "Disturbing, how a civil rights leader can embrace such a divisive us-and-them mentality," he fails to understand that within this system of labor competition it is a rational response. Not an ethical response, but a rational one. The Irish rioted to keep from fighting to free slaves neither because they were staunch pacifists, nor because they were strong supporters of the rights of slave owners in the South. The majority had not yet themselves been admitted to "White" status, so their response was not a matter of race, either. It was a matter of protecting a very meager economic existence. That is the basis of MOST racist belief: A sense of fear for one's own well-being. That sense might be fostered by the monied classes, but it might also be recognized for those struggling for any share of the ecnomic pie. It is important to understand the rational basis beneath the racist behavior if we are to combat it. To merely point out the hypocrisy is to put the burden on those hurt by the system rather than those furthering the abuse. So, while it is disturbing to read of a Civil Rights leader speaking out against those lower on the economic rung, it might be wise to ask "why?" Because Mr. Fair is correct in his assessement that amnesty would be a slap in the face to African Americans, and also in that it is an ecnomic disaster for those who are competing for lower wage jobs. There is no doubting the truth of his words, though one can question their justice and empathy.

Thank you to all the posters who have pointed out that it is in the economic interest of the ruling class to keep illegals illegal. True. An illegal workforce cannot be an organized workforce. It is important to recognize that illegal labor is being used, as FreeRanger notes, to drive down the wages and standards of formerly good paying Union jobs. It is important to recognize that, in order to defeat this effort, we need to organize ACROSS borders. I wrote a rather lengthy post about immigration in response to an article appearing yesterday on Common Dreams, "A Sanatized Betrayal of American History," I believe. If anyone is interested, my comments are posted to that article, or available at the Unknown-Arts blog: www.unknown-arts.org/politics

There is also an article on this site today about Firestone and child labor in Liberia. It is an important article to connect to this one, and to realize that the United States is no longer interested in bringing in uneducated labor for this very reason: It is more easily exploited, and with much greater freedoms for suppression, abroad. We would never tolerate here what Firestone is doing in Liberia.

Them and Us has been branded into human brains since we had the ability to understand the spoken word - no matter what race, creed, color, culture we or "they" are!

There is so much more about us that is the same than that is different.
We eat, we drink, we make love, we have families, we work, we sleep, we laugh, we sing, we dance... (and we support politics, media, and entertainment at wages many times greater than the average citizen earns in practically every culture in the world!)

Immigration fear isn't racism as much as the talking heads insist it is - the fear we experience around issues of immigration are conceived in downwardly spiraling economies, depletion of resources, and the unceasing media fear-mongers claiming that everyone not-like-us is a threat... "they" will take our jobs, deluge our schools, devalue our neighborhoods, marry our children, commit crimes, drain our social services, and bloat our taxes. Did I leave anything out? Please fill in the blanks with your own fears...
Congratulations - you too have been enlisted in maintaining the status quo - a status quo that, by the way, bears you no goodwill. A status quo built on the backs of regular folks who don't ask for much but need enough to get by. A status quo that has never been known for its humanism - regardless of nationality.

The Economics of Capitalism and Fascism, need to control the worker base, keep it scared and divided and let it fight for scraps and drive the wages down.

Don't engage.

It's not immigrants that are criminal because they cross borders to accept low wages so they can take care of their families - it's the employers that are selling out the quality of life to the lowest bidder...Something no individual would do to their own community unless they were "evil" but something a corporate "entity" has as its BOTTOM LINE.

If the powers-that-be penalized employers for illegal hiring practices and established continental standards of fair pay-fair treatment... well that would be a good place to start!

My husband was born in Kabul, Afghanistan and immigrated as a teenager during the Soviet Invasion/Occupation. He immigrated legally, waited in a warzone and dodged bullets to get his paperwork came here and contributes alot to society. He did not get gov't handouts such as healthcare, college tuition etc which this amnesty bill is promising. We are both totally against blanket amnesty for illegals. Its not fair to the legal immigrants who wait in line and follow our laws especially those from war torn countries.

Tristam's vitriolic shriek is either a tactic of a neoliberal shill or maybe just pandering to his South Florida readership. Much worse than that, he's nothing more than an agent provocateur playing the race card and perpetuating hatred.
Shameful, hateful and inaccurate (illegal immigrants are the economy's saving grace??); journalistic crap, plain and simple.
Mr. Tristam, why do you hate the American worker?

Bravo Pierre,
Finally someone who speaks the truth. I have been
working with Mexicans for over 35 years. They are the
hardest working, most loyal, and responsive people I've
ever worked with. Isn't it funny, that our fat, bloated and
lazy americans, who are sitting around waiting to win the
lottery, would be upset by a group of people who really work
for a living. And what about the millions of Mexicans in our country, who are citizens. Whos families have lived in
the U.S. for generations. Do you think when Lou Dobbs sees
one of these people, he says oh theres an American. These are the people who are really suffering. Americans can't distinguish between an illegal Mexican, and an American Mexican, so we have millions of Americans(of Mexican decent)
who are suffering from the racism stirred up by the popular culture. We have reduced them to a pariah, and what is thier crime? Everyone says that Mexicans work for less wages. I met a young man from Guatamala the other day on an airplane. He was returning to Guatamala, after an 8 month visa he recieved from the U.S. Forestry Service. I asked him what he did for the forestry service, and he said "I planted trees". I then proceeded to ask how much the forestry service paid him. He said he was paid $25.00 per 1,000 trees. I was shocked, and said, "How many trees can you plant in one day. He told me that if everything was perfect, in a 12 hour day he could plant 4,000 trees. But he said a normal 12 hour shift, he would plant 2,000 trees. Thats $50.00 for a 12 hour shift. Considerably below minimum wage. I wonder how many Americans would like to go out and plant trees for that wage. My other question is why is it ok for the forestry service to exploit latin labor, but American companys,(which must pay at least minimum wage) are accused of being Un American for hiring people who want to work. The Forestry Service has no limits on the amount of Visas it can get. I'm sure there are millions of Americans who would love to work in the forest, for a decent wage. Why isn't the Forestry Service offering $10.00 or $12.00 an hour to Americans to plant trees. Duhhh, it costs less to give visas to latin people who will work harder, and longer, for less. So let's cut the hypocrytical crap, and realize that if the Forestry Service is issueing Visas, how many other Government agencies are doing the same thing. A bunch I'll bet.
It's a sad day in America, when we can alienate and make a pariah out of an entire race of people. And thier only crime is that they work hard, they show up for work, and they don't complain. Go figure.

Dunnyveg is joking, right? Please tell me yes.

Matts,
Plain and simple, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. More disinformation.
It just so happens I've planted trees in the Gila and Apache Nat'l Forests, I lived in the forest off and on for 30 days at a time. The guys with the augers are out in front, you come behind w/ a tray of trees (Ponderosa) plant it, scrap/kick the dirt back over. You are on your knees or stooped most of the time. You work hard and help the contractor make his quota then you get a pay you can't complain about -American workers in the American forest. Those types of jobs are not hourly but bid contracts, same as thinning. Now the contractors are local native born Hispanics who hire illegals. The Nat'l forset contracts have all but dried up. What's more the illegals live in the forest and poach. Last year NM FIsh&Game arrested a bunch squatting on BLM land killing raptors for feathers and poaching deer and elk for hides.
Dude, I don't know where in the hell you're from. Obviously not the "front lines". STHU until youi know something that's real.

The Mexicans plant trees around here in recent years because someone bids the contract lower. For sure, planting trees is hard work and I'm a white woman, 5 ft. 7in. and being tall isn't an advantage in that line of work. For the longest time the trees were planted by local people. I've worked for the Dept. of Natural Resources in the past, one job putting the trees in the ditches that had water to be planted later. I worked a couple years seasonal spraying the trees with pigs blood from Canada. No, and the job is not a walk in the park. Logged over, rough terrain, dead fall to climb over, and you have this 5 gallon tank on your back, and sprayer. Then there is the part about finding the trees, as I don't beleive the deer ate all of them. Seemed to me, that the boundaries of a piece of land you would find them, while the middle there was none. Somehow, this leads me to the conclusion that the Mexicans didn't perform their job correctly. I was paid $11.86 per hour, and you work at your own risk.

Must not be any illegal presidents, either. Some of their illegalities are documented; some are not. Logically, they're not culpable, either. Cheney/Bush will be so glad; Nixon might come back!. Tough for US citizens in between, for whom it IS ILLEGAL if We DO it! Otherwise I'd be comfortably SQUATTING in Bora Bora.

I really don't see how anyone other than big business benefits from illegal immigration or mass amnesty.

People so often make this about race, and it really shouldn't be. I don't care where they're coming from, I think it's very bad for everyone involved if we just let foreigners come in a do work that Americans supposedly won't do for peanuts.

"Bravo Pierre,
Finally someone who speaks the truth. I have been
working with Mexicans for over 35 years. They are the
hardest working, most loyal, and responsive people I've
ever worked with. Isn't it funny, that our fat, bloated and
lazy americans, who are sitting around waiting to win the
lottery, would be upset by a group of people who really work
for a living."

Yep. A typical characteristic of the left. Let's put a certain group on a pedestal and then slam another. The right does it, so why don't we? And we wonder why we never get anywhere. Mexicans=hard working, Americans=fat, lazy, racist, horrible. That's good. You in a way sound like a conservative. I guess the working poor deserve to be disenfranchised, after all, they're lazy. So let's bring in people to do their work.

This isn't about whether or not Mexicans are good or bad people. I don't care either way. This is about economics. Do people realize how many unemployed there are in this country? Why should we give jobs to people from other countries for nothing wages when we have people here who could and would do the work if they were paid a living wage?

Doesn't anyone see how this only benefits the elites?

"mexicans flocking over the border are victims of the same global corporatist agenda that are driving down wages, destroying the social safety net, etc., all over the world. NAFTA, etc. is destroying the possibility of even subsistence living for many mexicans, so here they come. easy to blame the mexicans, and say you are defending the natives. you can build a new wall of china on the border, keep out all new "illegals," deport the current "illegals," and in 10 years your wages will still be plummeting, your jails filling, your healthcare unaffordable, etc., etc. and what will you have to show for it? hatred for brown people, a still impoverished citizenry, and an ever growing national security state to keep tabs on and kick out the "illegals."

I don't hate brown people. I understand that they are disenfranchised also, and if they're all allowed to come here, they'll be disenfranchised again along with most other Americans. And then we'll be fighting amongst ourselves which seems to be what the right and even some of those on the left want apparently.

"what your government is willing to do to the peoples of other countries (via war, trade, whatever), it will soon do to its own citizens. what your gov't does to immigrants, it will soon do to its own citizens. you can't be for "justice" for the natives and screwing over everybody else. fuck you and your nationalist xenophobia.

I do not favor mass deportation, walls, fences, or any such thing for Mexicans. I want people who hire illegals to be fined and/or jailed. I also want third world debt cancelled and for NAFTA and GATT to end. That's how we can solve this problem. Completely opening the border will benefit no one except the wealthy, and people like Pierre Tristam will be unaffected by it. I WISH people would see that. But again, people are blinded by either racial animosity or solidarity or pure greed.

All we are doing is creating another underclass. I don't want anyone coming to this country just so they can be paid poorly to do menial work. THAT is just as bad as xenophobia. In fact, it's f'ng slavery. This serves the American and Mexican elite. That's all. We're just helping two highly corrupt oligarchies here.

"then proceeded to ask how much the forestry service paid him. He said he was paid $25.00 per 1,000 trees. I was shocked, and said, "How many trees can you plant in one day. He told me that if everything was perfect, in a 12 hour day he could plant 4,000 trees. But he said a normal 12 hour shift, he would plant 2,000 trees. Thats $50.00 for a 12 hour shift. Considerably below minimum wage. I wonder how many Americans would like to go out and plant trees for that wage."

None. Pay Americans more money, and they'll do it. If any American won't do that work for that wage, why should we exploit someone from another country? I'd be insulted if I were Mexican.

"My other question is why is it ok for the forestry service to exploit latin labor,"

It's not ok.

"but American companys,(which must pay at least minimum wage) are accused of being Un American for hiring people who want to work."

They are UnAmerican. In fact, there have been studies that show that Americans work harder than everyone. But we're lazy?

"It's a sad day in America, when we can alienate and make a pariah out of an entire race of people. And thier only crime is that they work hard, they show up for work, and they don't complain. Go figure."

I'm not alienating or villifying them at all.

" mfskinner June 12th, 2007 3:01 pm

What these people cost remains our lasting burden.

As I have said before and will repeat here we as a nation in order to possess any legitimacy in our policy of any kind must focus our money, time, energy and policy on making sure every american has access to jobs, shelter, nutrition, health care, and akk other aspects of our society before we worry about one person outside this nation. In simple terms every single american first. No ifs nads or buts every american first.

Why do you fail to see your own people in the streets, In the emergency room to get care, hungry, unemployed, bankrupt?

To hard to look at eh truth?

..."

That's true, but also does not fit wholly with reality. Why? Because apply what mfskinner says in whole consideration terms, which he or she did only in half(-truth) terms. Why is it only half? Easy, very easy to know the answer, but for those who don't, then here's the way: Find out why these so-called illegal and so-called undeserving immigrants and workers are coming to the US for to begin with. Once Americans do that little bit of study and honestly, and competently, then remember the essential principle of "YOU BROKE IT, YOU FIX IT".

Americans ARE the cause of why these so-called illegal and undeserving immigrants from South America are coming here; it's not their fault, but that of the USA, and the criminally complicit puppet idiots of the govts of the countries of these immigrants or migrants, the USA having been extremely, the most extreme cause of why those workers and human beings are so plighted that they have NO CHOICE, but to have to try to come to the US and accept these demanding and dangerous enough jobs while being extremely exploited in terms of compensation.

USA BROKE those countries, USA has the obligation to see to those countries getting corrected; and then these migrating people won't have a plight to flee from for they'll no longer be in context of EXTREME plight back home.

Why are Americans unemployed, homeless, etc.? For the basically SAME reason these plighted migrants flee and at high risk to their own lives, to try to get some economy for themselves, and their plighted families back home.

So while I agree with mfskinner in one respect, he or she still only tells HALF-TRUTH and thereby is working on spreading all the more dumbing down ignorance, a very arrogant kind of ignorance; regardless of his half of the truth looks ethical on the surface.

That's reflective of the USA though; very dumbed down, ignorant, and letting the ignorance be employed in arrogant, inhumane terms.

Oops, I apologize for being so harsh, but NO ONE could ever convince me to ever take a stand or voice an opinion against the human rights and dignities of these plighted migrants looking for some relief; all while to stand or voice against the hellbent exploitation of these and any other people, yes, I'll definitely side with such a stand and voice.

I did not break the systems of those peoples' countries, but the USA did, so the USA is responsible to correct what it criminally and hellbent did to these now, not before but now plighted peoples.The USA needs to stick to its own business and to provide the due reparations to the First Nations peoples of US territory, that is, to the aboriginals, the native Indians. And the Chicano workers in California, f.e., are in their ancestral terrain, while MOST Americans are NOT, BTW.

I'm NOT part of the colonialising jerks of Europe, even if my ancestors came from there around 1460; French, to Quebec, Canada, while I was born and raised in USA and from immigrant parents from Quebec. They also worked at what were basically slave wages, but mother was seamstress and worked for a manufacturer that got some piece-work contracts, paid by the piece, and that allowed her to work her blood and sweat enough to raise the family out of third-world poverty in the US; for the times there were these piece-work contracts, but which worked out to be enough to become no longer third worlded in terms of economic status. My father remained at third-worlded wage level, because of having worked for the state of Mass. and Americans are generally too CHEAP to make sure that blue collar govt employees get living incomes. But the seamstress contract, piece work got the family out of third-world status.

That wasn't because of illegals coming to the USA; it was because it's the American Way, being hellishly CHEAP and greedy. Well enough off Americans want ever more capital, income, accumulation, while wanting to pay the very least they can to obtain what other people work their blood and sweat to produce and at LOW, VERY low wages, to please all these other extremely SELFISH Americans.

YOU REAP WHAT YOU SOW, and FIX WHAT YOU BREAK. I say.

This guy is a real corporate shill. Fat lazy Americans indeed. I am fat - I have been poisoned with pesticides, can't afford to join a gym or even take time to take a good long walk once in awhile. I AM lazy, and why not when working hard gets you nothing but a pat on the head for being a good little corporate soldier. If my employer has a right to be cheap I certainly have a right to be lazy. I worked in the high tech corporate world for 16 years and nothing to show for it but tens of thousands of dollars of debt. I was an electronics technician - someone that does the kind of unappreciated grunt work that a retard such as this author would probably never have the brain's to do well in.

Manufacturing has been mostly dismantled now and shipped overseas so I've got a new career now. My new career is profitable beyond the wildest dreams of any electronics technician. You see the white collar dog turds that call me a fat lazy American clued me in - it's profitable to offshore jobs to third world countries. Now I own a quickly rising business offshoring American jobs to places like India and Eastern Europe. More specificaly my company specializes in offshoring WHITE COLLAR jobs to these countries.

You see the funny thing about white collar workers is they don't actually work for a living. I'm not saying all white collar jobs are easy but let's face it. If white collar workers all died tomorrow it would hardly interfere with pumpkins being planted, widgets being put together, or any other worthwhile work that doesn't depend on somebody else doing the real work for you. Oh we might need a few engineers and even a few supervisor types, but we certainly don't need the dog turd lazy lumps that sit in an office all day only to come out on the shop floor and tell us how we're going to increase productivity by screwing things up and creating a hostile work environment simply because you have to meddle in the real work that you know jack squat about.

So when I pick your daughter up to use as my sexual plaything in my limo because you couldn't afford to keep sending her to a private school in order to get a business degree, which is useless in a country where all business expertise has been outsourced or barely pays because there are so few positions left , I'll cheerfuly roll down my window and shout "get a job" as I recognize you standing in the soup line.

If your lucky I'll give your daughter a big enough chunk of crack for her "services" that maybe she'll come home and share it with you in your tar paper shack. And don't think I won't be generous because you see, I realise that those who work for a living actually deserve the biggest chunk. A pimp like you only deserves the crumbs.

Anybody know where we can get 30,000,000 people capable of spewing crap like this? Oh yeah - ANYWHERE. Fat lazy journalist!

Each of us sees this issue through his or her own lens. We lash out at others who hold a different point of view. The policies of our government and the Mexican government have had a devastating effect on the Mexican economy and the people are desperate. Only a desperate person would go through the hell of crossing our southern border. If we don't want illegal immigrants from Mexico, then we need to help that country, our neighbor, to stabilize its economy. The amount of money we spend on providing education, health care and other social services to illegal immigrants here in America could be spent to help Mexicans to help themselves in their own country. We need to work together to find solutions because the American economy will not be able to continue to bear the increasing financial burden indefinitely.
But, there will be serious economic fallout here if we chose to deport all illegal immigrants from Mexico. Agriculture has become completely dependent upon the immigrant workers. They are fast, skilled, willing to work long hours in the heat of the summer for low wages. Without these workers, the pears in my part of the country will rot on the trees, and the family farms will go bankrupt.
Are we really considering deporting all illegal immigrants? Is it necessary to make these people criminals because they have taken the only option available to them to make a better life for themselves? Let's use our creativity to search for solutions, rather than attacking each other for seeing this thing from differing perspectives. Okay, call me an idealist, but I just keep hoping for some sign of rational problem-solving.

No one seems to get it! Immigrants are not wanted in America nor are the other "undesireables" by the political and industrial elite. Why? Because the country has always been a plutocracy, not a "democracy" and when there are too many people, the handful of elite that run it all know that they will lose it all. That's how it works. If such a thing as a "Fascist's Cookbook" existed, then this WARNING would be right at the front! Probably in the preface.

Read my white paper that no one on this planet can break (http://www.hiddenmurder.blogspot.com). It proves why the american government is committing the "Silent War" (autogenocide) of biological warfare (Axiom of Biological Stress) against it's own people. If they have to conduct a Silent War to bring the numbers (of undesireable people) down and try to keep keeping it hidden, they don't need extra numbers to remove. That's why all the legal manueurving to keep the Untermenschen (that's what the elite view the common man as) out because they are already removing their own undesireables. M

According to the race baiters, anyone who opposes the corporate globalist agenda is a racist. Your job got shipped to China, and you don't like it? You're a racist. You lost your job to an illegal who gets lower wages and no benefits, and you don't like it? You're a racist. You express a concern for poor and unemployed Americans? You're a racist.

It's corporate PR (crap) but it seems to be selling, so why not try it on some other thorny issues? Don't like Bush's tax cuts for the rich? You're a racist. Angered by offshoring of corporate profits to avoid U.S. taxes? You're a racist. How about the war in Iraq? Don't like it? You're a racist. Oh wait, they've already got a smear for that one. If you don't like the war in Iraq, you're unpatriotic.

People who screech "racist" are hateful people. Some seem to hate Americans simply based on their nationality. Some seem to think that working-class Americans are responsible for corporate globalist policies, and that whatever harm comes to them is therefor justified --- a theory that is borderline irrational. I tire of the race baiters. They contribute nothing to the conversation.

Dear Bruton, there is your typical american sad story. I've been abused, and so now I'm looking for some way to
abuse the system. Instead of reeducating or going into a
different line of work to make more money, we just complain
and feel sorry for ourselves, while our lives go to crap.
Then we blame it on the system. I'm not saying the system
isn't broke, but there is more than one way to make a
living in America. Also, anyone can find an hour in thier day to take a walk. You just have to get up and do it.

As for you Mr. Habenero,
Mr. I know everything about the forestry service because I
used to work there. Lets examine your words.
"The Forestry service began using Mexican American Contractors". Hmmmm?
"The Forestry Service contracts have all dried up". Hmmmm?
Do you think that the Forestry service quit planting trees?Hmmmm?
Or do you think, that by giving out visas to latin countries, they now have a steady flow of workers to accomplish thier plantings, without using the contractors you used to work for. Oh by the way, did you ever ask any of those illegals if they had a visa and a green card. How do you know they were illegal? Well I guess since you worked for the Forestry service for 30 years, you can just spot the ones who are illegal. This is the problem, we are condemming an entire race, and we don't have any idea which
ones are here legally and which ones are not.

Question: how do "they" know there are 12 million undocumented immigrants? The word "undocumented" would suggest counting them might be a problem. And seeing as how GOPathologicals lie about every and any thing big or small, with the help of loyal bushies tumored in every agency and department, how is it that this 12 million number is accepted as fact? Before answering, remember the part about the unprecedented lying. And remember, also: "10,000 sleeper cell members in the US" and not a single one discovered in 6 years; "The $13 billion porn industry" - an obvious impossibility, and when was the last time you met a porn billionaire? Or a super rich porn actor? What, they're all hiding with the sleeper cells? Pick any statistic provided by Cheney/Bush and you will find it exposed as a total fabrication days after it was vomited to the MSM.

There is no way anyone knows how many illegal immigrants are in this country. Period. 12 million is simply the number "they" decided was large enough to provoke the necessary fear level. Instead of accepting this and debating this with the nutwing (all their supporters hear is the number, not the argument,) it's time to demand hard proof of the numbers from those ready to build walls and take up sniper positions.

Regarding Mr. Tristam's comment about the origins of the name "Monique Thibodeaux", the point he was making was that America is a land of immigrants. Same is true of all modern countries.

If one searches back far enough into one's family tree, you'll find no one who is a pure-bred native of any country.

Simple fact is, mankind has always wandered, migrated from poverty-stricken to resource-rich regions while crossing and ignoring arbitrarily (human) drawn boundaries.

Man is an animal, animals migrate.

Matt, (aka, Herbie Goldfarb)
I'm probably your worse nightmare. German-Irish-Polish-Brit, and yes, Mexican (so therefore Amerindian) but I'm blue-eyed and fair as they come. Did you ever see the blue-eyed Mexicans coming up from Casa Grande to buy farm machinery in Deming. Where do you think the origins of Dos Equis and Tecate come from –German-Mexicans?
I think it's a little too late to attempt credibility after you call Americans fat and lazy.
I know foresters. Yes, that's what they call themselves. You are obviously not a forester; that much I know. What exactly is your "forestry" experience? Whatever it is you're most likely a business type since you recite the typical neoliberal mantra.
Oh yes, your questions:
1.Mexican-American contractors- It's a bid process. A person who might want to pay a fair price to his workers doesn't have a chance regardless of their race. Since my god-son's father is a state forest supervisor (not a "used to be") and my son has worked in the forest –all for either Hispanic or Native-Americans, and being "on the ground", I have a good idea who's in the forest.
2.Re: dried up - Dried up for people who want to pay a fair wage which you obviously don't agree with.
3. Re: visas -Spoken like a true neolib. You use it at your convenience to show your contempt of American workers.
4. You asked, "how do you know they're illegal"? I ask you, "how do you know they're not"?
Matt, I don't know your ancestry but I think you might be hiding some sort of prejudice.
What exactly is your stake in all this?
Your disdain for the American worker along with your unconditional pro-immigrant stand doesn't help either.

Basically, in the "progressive" worldview, anyone who stands up for the former BLACK janitors in Los Angeles who had semi-decent jobs until the rich WHITE employers found cheaper illegals is racist. Anyone who worries about the unskilled, white or black, brown or yellow, American citizen losing access to the middle class is a bigot. And, all the lilly white poor little rich limosuine liberals who hire illegals at sub human wages as nannies, gardners, chofers, and housekeepers is enlightened. That is the lesson I take from this piece. Thank goodness I am not a "progressive". I do not think I could sleep at night with "values" like these.

Tristam, a question, how many illegals do YOU employee? Afraid of losing your gardener??

The problem with this whole discussion is that we are talking past each other. American capital needs an excess supply of cheap under-educated labor to hold down their costs and bost their profits to obscene levels. They are more than willing to do wehtever it takes to insure that "business as usual" continues even if that means destroying the political and economic climate in other countries so that desperate people will flock here to the US to work at wages others will not.

The reason New Orleans is being rebuilt and restocked by Latino laborers is becasue the larger percentage of African Americans who escaped that plantation now realize that there is no reason to go on living like that anymore.

We all join in this Faustien bargain when we shop at big box retailers or hire contractors who scour the world for the cheapest sweatshop goods or labor avaiable so that they can sell at the highest price possible. This is not about frugality and thrift, it is about exploitation and all of our complicity in helping it to continue.

The fundamental problem here is corporate greed- plain and simple. The corporations don't care about people and their livelyhood- they care about money.
If this doesn't change, nothing else will.

There may be many good reasons for allowing a reasonable number of new immigrants but being "good consumers" is certainly not one of them.

Hey folks, celebrating MILLIONS more human "consumers" is not good for the natural world no matter what your political arguments.

This was an angry article that really made no sense. And all that nonsense about forgetting the legalities would be attacked vigorously if the author was writing about Alberto Gonzales I suspect.

It makes no sense to make saints of immigrants of any race. The real issues are still with us and often made more difficult to solve by simply increasing numbers.

Nellemason:

I don't consider destruction of the environment and the dispossession of American workers to be a laughing matter. I'm curious as to what would prompt you to ask such a question. If you have any specific criticisms, just reply. I'd love to hear them.

Samski:

It would be silly to call the Germans who invaded the USSR in 1941 immigrants because the word immigrant has a very specific meaning. An immigrant is one who wishes to assimilate to a pre-existing culture. And the folks who settled this country made absolutely no pretense of fitting in with the pre-existing Indian cultures. No, they formed their own societies in the image of the societies they left. Nor were the slaves immigrants. And this country was founded by settlers and slaves. So, to call this a nation of immigrants is to deny the very existence not only of this country's founders, but the slaves as well. And together, the descendants of settlers and slaves comprise half of the American population.

This is a nation that contains immigrants, but it is NOT a nation of immigrants.

Samski – No, the point Mr. Tristam was making about Monique Thibodeaux was that she has little right to oppose the legalization of 12-20 million illegal migrants because her surname "suggests her American origins don't quite date back to the Jurassic . . ." I disagree with Tristan's notion that some Americans have less right than others to participate in our democracy. However, it's also worth noting — as I did previously — that Thibodeaux is a common name among American Indians. It dates back to the Frenchmen who explored this continent in the 1600s. By Mr. Tristam's lights therefor, Thibodeaux should have more right than others to express her opinions, not less.

POWERSLAVE – I agree with your views about corporate insourcing. But I disagree about progressives. I'm with the progressives on just about every issue except corporate insourcing. Progressives are right about single-payer, universal healthcare, peace and diplomacy, corporate tax avoidance, corporate welfare, privatization, civil rights, equal rights, fair trade and "free" trade, environmental protection, occupational safety and health, and every other "good government" issue I can think of. While some progressives are "limousine liberals" with wage-slave gardeners and nannies, I would argue that most are not. Many who come to these forums opposing corporate insourcing, for example, have identified themselves convincingly as working-class.

Why CommonDreams publishes globalist rhetoric like Tristam's is beyond me. Why some progressives are for every "good government" regulation except immigration regulation is a puzzle. Is it knee-jerk political correctness? Could be. Is it misinformation? Could be. As I've said before, some progressives seem to be drinking the kool-aid that corporate PR machines and corporate media dolts are pouring. Are some who comment here corporate shills posing as progressives? Could be.

and the lesson is: forget abortion and gay marriage, we've found the wedge issue of '08.

frank1569 - Add these numbers to your litany of lies: 1,500 unused school buses during Katrina; 45 minutes for Saddam to deliver WMD to the continental US; tons of Sarin gas, etc, etc.

The current immigration "problem" is merely a diversionary tactic by the administration to get our blood boiling about something other than Iraq, and who better to single out than the Hispanic, today's new n!gger? Getting congress to waste time on this red herring beats having them investigate war crimes and judicial violations, conflicts of interest and election reform. Stop fighting with each other over this phoney issue. Keep focussed on the real problem - Cheney's imperialism and the war in Iraq!

Dear Bruton, there is your typical american sad story. I've been abused, and so now I'm looking for some way to
abuse the system. Instead of reeducating or going into a
different line of work to make more money, we just complain
and feel sorry for ourselves, while our lives go to crap.

>>> I beleive I said that I'm outsourcing white collar jobs now, so I HAVE done just that. So worried you can't even pay attention? White collar jobs are easier and more profitable to outsource because no REAL work is done, no buildings have to be erected no tools need to be purchased. You don't have to send anything overseas except the work since nothing REAL is involved.

>>> Re-educate? Have you seen the cost of education these days? You have to be RICH already to afford it. Student loans? Just try to get one when your already in debt up to your eyeballs from previous student loans that bought you nothing but an extra buck an hour over what you would make without a degree. Besides I may work 16 hour days now but I am self-employed. I'll never work to make fat lazy criminal CEOs or investors rich again. I will not be owned as a wage slave or "human resource" again, why would I want a third rate education at platinum prices to get slightly better treatment as a serf? If slaving for slightly higher wages inside an anti-democratic power structure run by traitors to our country is the best you can offer I have to say hell no!

Then we blame it on the system. I'm not saying the system
isn't broke, but there is more than one way to make a
living in America.

>>> Yep. Doing that, see above.

Also, anyone can find an hour in thier day to take a walk. You just have to get up and do it.

>>> Another idiot white collar remark. You think an hour a day of walking is exercise? Don't make me laugh. As a factory worker I walked further in one day around the shop floor than you walk in a month if you think an hour a day cuts it as exercise. Quit subsidizing the oil companies by prying YOUR fat lazy ass out of your car for six months and you'll see what walking really is. I haven't driven in over 10 years since I was too poor to waste money that way and now I just refuse to start - the money I make outsourcing your job will NOT be re-introduced into the economy via the oil companies, or plasma TVs or any of the other garbage folks like you think they can't live without.

>>> Lastly why is it abusing the system to send YOUR job offshore but not when my job is sent offshore, or when the availability of jobs is undermined by uncontrolled immigration?

In the meantime say hello to your replacement from India. He may have been working in a sweat shop last week so that you didn't have to pay a decent wage here in the states but tomorrow he'll be picking his nose at a desk and pushing papers just like you - only for a fraction of the price.

Bob K, I am actually coming to agree with you on single payer, as the alternative, employer mandates, are job killers, and have little relevance in the new world of self employed people, and people like myself who have multiple jobs. (Would I get multiple insurance plans out of an employer mandate? No, more likely, I would lose all of my secondary jobs.)

And, don't get me started on corporate welfare.

Vince -- You may be right about corporate insourcing being a new wedge issue! I'd never put two and two together until you made that comment. So, the Repugs have outmaneuvered the Dems again by baiting them into adopting a wildly unpopular position? Will it mean a Republican victory in 08? Please enlighten us. And, I mean that sincerely.

wcdevins -- You may also be right that corporate insourcing is a diversion from bigger issues like war crimes and vote-count fraud. But, please don't succumb to the corporate framing of the issue: it's about economics, not ethnicity.

Bob K - Of course it's about economics - the ethnicity angle is just a way of getting the Republican base involved. Corporate insourcing, as you accurately define "migrant labor", is yet another arm of the giant voracious octopus that is runaway unregulated globalized Reagan corporate capitalism, the overarching problem with America and the world today.

It just amuses me how suddenly, in the past year, Mexican immigrants have become the biggest problem facing us today. I say we have bigger fish to fry, and the current immigration debate is a time-, attention-, and energy-wasting detour foisted on us by the Cheney neocon Republicans.

skinner: Burden, huh?

What about the burden to everyone on the planet of having folks like you and Bob K and Powerslave--with your vocabulary of five words--allowed to enter a voting booth?

White man's burden, indeed.

If Congress wants to change their actions, they could at least make the process fair across the board - that the law applies to every foreigner. Sadly the legalization process is not universal, and this fact is hardly ever mentioned in the debates. For example, a citizen of a sanctioned nation has priority when it comes to acquiring the paperwork necessary to work in the United States "legally" than citizens of allied nations. In general, Mexico feels exempt from acquiring the paperwork needed to work in the Unied States.

I can't say I blame foreigners who do not want to go through the process of legalization. After all, this process often take years, instead of weeks, and as stated, depending on which country the foreigner is from.

A faster process for "legalization" and a universally applicable law. Sounds good to me. These two solutions sound better than bulding a fence that is about 1,000 miles long in the southern border and a fence that is more than 5,000 miles long in the northern border that simply will take literally decades to accomplish. Besides, this undertaking would be difficult financially as money is being diverted to making a nation on the other side of the world miserable.

As the fence is basically unrealistic, so is rounding up all undocumented foreigners in the United States and sending them to their respective countries at once. This possible solution would not only be expensive, but also not feasible as we are talking about a few million people. There are roughly 300 million people in the United States. A smaller, less populated nation can be able to regulate the immigration process better than a larger more populous nation for obvious reasons.

It is as if Americans in general are complaining for the wrong reasons when it comes to illegal immigration. My solutions sound more cogent than the typical Nationalist could bring forward. This must be said as well - "illegal foreigners" DO help the U.S. Economy out. Well, what's left of it anyways. This needs to be kept in mind. I agree that it is wrong that businesses are not being fined or liquidated for hiring undocumented foreigners for a pay cut - THAT is unjust and businesses should be punished. However, the fact remains that foreingers working in the U.S. do help the Economy - better than the United States helps themselves in this regard. Undocumented workers may even save the United States from their more than likely economic depression that could very well happen in the near future.

I just wanted to point out that "Mrs. Thibodeaux" (or her husband) is likely of French Canadian ancestry ... and that when the French Canadians came south to the northeastern U.S. around 1875 to 1900, in order to work in the mill towns, they were looked down upon every bit by the "Americans" as the Mexican immigrants are today. One 50-something friend who grew up in a white Protestant family in Maine remembers being told that there were two kinds of people: French Canadians and everyone else. (Obviously, she grew out of that attitude.)

My maternal great-grandparents crossed into New England and Michigan (Mrs. Thibodeaux's home state) in the 1880s, and I doubt they bothered with immigration paperwork. Does that mean that I deserve to get thrown out of this country because they didn't go through Ellis Island like my paternal grandparents?