The New Atheists
What began with publisher W.W. Norton taking a chance on a gutsy, hyperbolic and idiosyncratic attack on religion by a graduate student in neuroscience has grown into a remarkable intellectual wave. No fewer than five books by the New Atheists have appeared on bestseller lists in the past two years--Sam Harris's The End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation, Daniel Dennett's Breaking the Spell, Richard Dawkins's The God Delusion and now Christopher Hitchens's God Is Not Great. The scandalized media have both attacked and inflated the phenomenon. After the New York Times Book Review, for example, ran a thoughtful review of Harris and then a negative front-page review of Dawkins, the daily paper published two weak op-ed attacks on the writers and a vapid article on how atheists celebrate Christmas, followed by tongue-in-cheek admiration in the Book Review for Hitchens's ability to promote his career by saying the unexpected.
Despite such dubious blessings, the four have become must-read writers. The most remarkable fact is not their books themselves--blunt, no-holds-barred attacks on religion in different registers--but that they have succeeded in reaching mainstream readers and in becoming bestsellers. Is this because Americans are beginning to get fed up with the religiosity of the past several years? It would be comforting if we could explain this as a cultural signal of the end of the right-wing/evangelical ascendancy. Such speculations are probably wishful thinking--book buyers are such a small slice of the population that few sociologists would stake their careers on claiming that book buyers' preferences reflect anything like a national mood.
The success of the New Atheists may, however, reflect something significant among their audience. In the past generation in the United States, atheists, agnostics and secular humanists have been a timid minority--almost voiceless, often on the defensive, routinely derided, both warned against and ignored. As Susan Jacoby pointed out in her book Freethinkers, it is symptomatic of the situation that the most dramatic presidential address in generations took place in the National Cathedral three days after September 11, 2001, so filled with religious language that it sounded like a sermon. It was delivered by a President flanked by Jewish, Muslim and Christian representatives, a model of religious inclusiveness, without anyone standing alongside them representing the tens of millions of nonreligious Americans. At this most important collective moment in our recent history, it was as if they did not exist. This is what the polls are telling us: Virtually everyone in America believes in God.
We know how zealously the conservative Christian denominations have politicized themselves in the past generation, how the GOP has harnessed this energy by embracing their demands--opposing stem-cell research, gay marriage and abortion rights, championing government aid to religious schools and faith-based social programs--and by appointing sympathetic judges. So effectively have they framed the issues that, according to the Pew Research Center's 2006 report on religion and public life, fully 69 percent of Americans believe that liberals have "gone too far in trying to keep religion out of schools and government."
We commonly hear that only a tiny percentage of Americans don't believe in God and that, as a Newsweek poll claimed this spring, 91 percent do. In fact, this is not true. How many unbelievers are there? The question is difficult to assess accurately because of the challenges of constructing survey questions that do not tap into the prevailing biases about religion. According to the American Religious Identification Survey, which interviewed more than 50,000 people, more than 29 million adults--one in seven Americans--declare themselves to be without religion. The more recent Baylor Religion Survey ("American Piety in the 21st Century") of more than 1,700 people, which bills itself as "the most extensive and sensitive study of religion ever conducted," calls for adjusting this number downward to exclude those who believe in a God but do not belong to a religion. Fair enough. But Baylor's own Gallup survey is a bit shaky for at least two reasons. It counts anyone who believes in a "higher power" but not God as believing in God--casting a vast net over adherents of everything from spirit to history to love. Yet the study allows unbelievers only one option: to not believe in "anything beyond the physical world," leaving no space for those who regard themselves as agnostics or skeptics, secularists or humanists. Contrast this with a more recent and more nuanced Financial Times/Harris poll of Europeans and Americans that allowed respondents to declare agnosticism as well as atheism: 18 percent of the more than 2,000 American respondents chose one or the other, while 73 percent affirmed belief in God or a supreme being.
A more general issue affects American surveys on religious beliefs, namely, the "social desirability effect," in which respondents are reluctant to give an unpopular answer in a society in which being religious is the norm. What happens when questions are framed to overcome this distortion? The FT/H poll tried to counteract it by allowing space not only for the customary "Not sure" but also for "Would prefer not to say"--and 6 percent of Americans chose this as their answer to the question of whether they believed in God or a supreme being. Add to this those who declared themselves as atheists or agnostics and, lo and behold, the possible sum of unbelievers is nearly one in four Americans.
All this helps explain the popularity of the New Atheists--Americans as a whole may not be getting too much religion, but a significant constituency must be getting fed up with being routinely marginalized, ignored and insulted. After all, unbelievers are concentrated at the higher end of the educational scale--a recent Harris American poll shows that 31 percent of those with postgraduate education do not avow belief in God (compared with only 14 percent of those with a high school education or less). The percentage rises among professors and then again among professors at research universities, reaching 93 percent among members of the National Academy of Sciences. Unbelievers are to be found concentrated among those whose professional lives emphasize science or rationality and who also have developed a relatively high level of confidence in their own intellectual faculties. And they are frequently teachers or opinion-makers.
But over the past generation they have come to feel beleaguered and, except for rare individuals like comedian and talk-show host Bill Maher, voiceless in the public arena. The great success of the New Atheists is to have reached them, both speaking to and for them. These writers are devoted, with sledgehammer force and angry urgency, to "breaking the spell" cast by the religious ascendancy, to overcoming a situation in which every other area of life can be critically analyzed while admittedly irrational religious faith is made central to American life but exempted from serious discussion.
This does not make for restraint. Harris displays brash self-confidence, Hitchens and Dawkins angry intellectual bite and Dennett an inexhaustible theoretical energy and range of inquiry. Harris excoriates religious moderates, accusing them of providing cover for fundamentalists at home and abroad by refusing to contest the extremists' premises--because they share them. More upbeat, Dennett is devoted to creating the intellectual conditions for future discussions, in which religion will be treated as just another "natural" phenomenon and accordingly subjected to critical scrutiny. Dawkins bulldozes his way through every major argument for religious belief, and a great many minor ones. And Hitchens endlessly catalogues religion's crimes and absurdities. Each man is at war, writing as if no others had preceded him, and with a passion that can only be described as political.
Above all, each sees himself as breaking a taboo. This explains not only the vigor and urgency of these books, their mainstream character and their publishing success but also the common refrain in reviews that they have "gone too far." Of course they have, because their many faults are often inseparable from their strengths. Self-indulgence is their common flaw: Dennett and Dawkins might have considered their readers more and disciplined their own need to follow out every line of thought, while Harris is so full of his point of view that he, like Hitchens, is unable to consider faith as anything but stupid. They show little understanding of religion or interest in it [see Daniel Lazare, "Among the Disbelievers," May 28]. Still, I am surprised by the hostility and bemusement expressed toward them by their fellow travelers in The New York Review of Books, The New Yorker and The London Review of Books. In attacking religion the four have been breaking the taboo against talking about it seriously, and they may be forgiven for not being calmer, more expert or more measured. Doing battle with what they see as the most pervasive and bothersome phenomenon in American life during the past generation, Harris, Dennett, Dawkins and Hitchens deserve praise for their courage and tenacity in shattering its spell.
Where does the work of the New Atheists leave us? I hope they have roused a significant portion of America from its timidity. But to what end? Living without God means turning toward something. To flourish we need coherent secular popular philosophies that effectively answer life's vital questions. Enlightenment optimism once supplied unbelievers with hope for a better world, whether this was based on Marxism, science, education or democracy. After Progress, after Marxism, is it any wonder atheism fell on hard times? Restoring secular confidence will take much positive work as well as the fierce attacks on religion by our atheist champions. On a societal level, as Ronald Inglehart and Pippa Norris point out in Sacred and Secular, living without God requires creating conditions in which people are free from the kinds of existential vulnerability that have marked all human societies until the advent of Europe's postindustrial welfare states. Markedly more religious than any of them, the United States provides a life that is far more unequal and far more insecure.
The surprising response to the New Atheist offensive should thus inspire us to think politically as well as philosophically. As a first step this demands creating a coalition between unbelievers and their natural allies, secular-minded believers. I am speaking first about many millions of Americans who nominally belong to a religion but effectively live without any active relationship either to it or to God, or belong to a church and attend services but are "tacit atheists," living day in and day out with only token reference to God. And I also include the many believers who accept the principle of America as a secular society. These include members of the liberal Jewish and Christian denominations, who have long practice in accommodating themselves to science and the modern world and who, as the National Council of Churches website tells us, may remain inspired by Genesis while not needing to take it in "literal, factual terms." Many of these turned up in the most significant finding of the Baylor survey, namely that more than one in four American "believers" does not mean by this a personal God at all but a distant God who has little or nothing to do with the world or themselves. This sounds very much like the deist God of "unbelievers" Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.
These believers, along with those who think of themselves as "spiritual," as well as professed unbelievers, help to explain why according to the Pew study so many Americans--32 percent--want less religious influence on government. Twenty-four percent say that President Bush talks too much about his religious faith and prayer, and 28 percent deny that the United States is a Christian nation. Most dramatically, a whopping 49 percent believe that Christian conservatives have gone too far "in trying to impose their religious values on the country." This, then, is an unreported secret of American life: Considerable numbers of Americans, religious and secular, are becoming fed up with the in-your-face religion that has come to mark our society.
Until now the most vocal left-of-center response to the Christian right, for example by Sojourners, has been to call for more religion in politics, not less. In early June the group organized a nationally televised forum at which John Edwards, Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton testified to their faith, talking about the "hand of God" (Edwards), forgiveness (Obama) and prayer (Clinton). Few loud-and-clear voices have been agitating in the mainstream on behalf of the separation of church and state, for secular and public education, or demanding less rather than more political discussion of religion. Yet tens of millions of Americans worry about such things.
Whether most of them continue to believe in God matters much less than that they are comfortable with secular knowledge and America's secular Constitution. Barry Lynn, for example, executive director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, is a Protestant minister. Although Harris and Dawkins castigate all believers for sharing the premises of conservative Christians, the fact is that many believers could easily be working with out-and-out atheists and agnostics on key issues.
Such a coalition should take the offensive on behalf of American constitutional promises of a secular society, increasingly under threat from Bush's Supreme Court appointments. It will gain support in unexpected places: Judge John Jones III, a Bush appointee, delivered a devastating blow to the forces behind "intelligent design" in his December 2005 decision in the Dover School Board case. The first half of his impressive decision contains a crystal-clear reflection on what science is and why intelligent design, a refurbished form of creationism, is religion, not science. The second half reads like a whodunit, revealing how a minority on the school board conspired to impose intelligent design on the district. It should be a rallying point for the nearly half of all Americans who are disturbed by right-wing religious attempts to impose their faith on the rest of us. An immediate goal should be a call for the publication and widest possible distribution of the Dover decision. It could become another bestseller--by a conservative judge no less!--and a text for civics, current events, history, law and basic science classes.
A second goal of such a coalition might be a campaign to reorient American thinking about atheists and atheism. In recent polls, far more respondents have declared themselves willing to vote for a woman or African-American for President than for an atheist--atheists are more unpopular than gays. Television news viewers are encouraged to nod in agreement with such ageless gibes as "There are no atheists in foxholes" without seeing just how nasty they are. This obnoxious remark, by Katie Couric on NBC's Today show, drew a few complaints and letters, but no wider protests or apology. A coalition determined to widen the range of socially acceptable belief could make a significant difference on such issues.
A broad secular coalition could also demand more nuanced discussion of the range of belief and unbelief in America today. Rather than consciously or unconsciously promoting religious belief, public opinion research should try to register a full range of beliefs, including the interesting and perplexing ways in which people live secular as well as religious lives and their sometimes contradictory combinations. These are rejected by Harris, Dawkins, Dennett and Hitchens, and ignored by the media and mainstream politicians.
Finally, such an alliance could become one place where Dennett's goal of discussing religion openly and critically--as well as atheism and agnosticism--could begin to be realized. A number of questions might be explored: What, for example, is the common ground and what are the differences between believers and unbelievers? And--I save for last the touchiest question of all--shouldn't all Americans be instructed in the great religious and secular traditions, as well as their greatest books? After all, achieving literacy in both religion and secularism might allow us to discuss them more intelligently.
Ronald Aronson is the author of Living Without God, to be published next year by Counterpoint. He teaches at Wayne State University.
© 2007 The Nation
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115 Comments so far
Show All"The real world is vastly more interesting than any of the made up worlds and one of the biggest problems in the world is finding meaning and purpose in the world and that is where science far, far outshines the others."
There are answers out there for the weary traveler who wants to come home, and the beauty of it all is that belief is not a requirement. In fact, it is an impediment. And science, as wonderful as it is, is only a minute part of Reality, valid within a limited scope, but still limited. "True" teachers exist, but are rare, and what most people seem to prefer is some new-age philosophy or psychobabble, a la Dr. Phil, that makes them feel good. What is it that you are really looking for?
I have huntington's disease. My mom has a cyst on the spine that has parlyzed her from the waist down since 1962. My mom is a rock, solid Christian lady that can't have her faith shaken by anyone or events. It works for her. But, she has been prayed for by hundreds, if not thousands of people since 1962 and the cyst on her spine has not shrunk or grown a single milimeter in that time span. Nothing fails like prayer. Prayer does not cure any real, legitimate disease, spinal injury or other disease that humans have.
If prayer can't even pop what is essentially a pimple on my mom's spine why do it any more? But my mom can see the reasoning there but she gets a huge amount of social brownie points for her illness. My younger brother, sister and I have HD and no amount of prayer for any of us will work. That is the hard core observable fact about prayer and all diseases.
Christians accuse me of being angry at god for his lack of help but firmly believe that god is using us like Noah, Jonah, etc, and we are probably one of god's tools. My mom believes this. Nobody understand's god's plan! Well, there are no gods, angels, devils or demons out there to explain to us how god thinks or what god's plan is so if god has a plan it is indistinguishable from no god at all.
The secular majority out there understands this. The combination of the atheists, agnostics and the secular church people is over 56% if you do a proper survey. The church has been losing people since the 1950's at a 1.3% rate and right now their own surveys show that the churches are not growing and are, in fact, losing numbers. If they continue at the rate they are going they will disappear for the most part by 2050.
My grandmother died from clogging of the arteries, which today would be fixed with an aterial roto-rooter and she would probably live as long as her cousins, who are still alive and getting close to one hundred years old. Instead she died from a disease that has multiple treatments today. A local friend had to have a triple bypass operation and would be dead today if he had lived in that era instead. Medical science has advanced to an incredible degree and will continue advancing on into the future. But, a series of life style changes would have saved my grandmother's life and she could have had a very long life since her cousins are still out there it is reasonable to assume that if she had made it into the 80's she would be alive today.
The first thing I did when I had my HD confirmed was to sign up as a lab rat at the University of Iowa at their HD Excellence center. Most of the day I am senile. The damage to my brain is real but I do what I can to minimize the damage and hang on. An atheist doctor chum said I should take a look at St. John's Wort as a cheap anti-depressant but when I took it my senility disappeared. I got back my motor control and my speech centers. When it wears off at the end of the day I am senile again and have virtually no motor control at all. I have no idea why this particular compound works for me but it is just a temporary fix for me and I have to take eight a day now to stay senility free for the whole day and night I am up working on stuff I feel I need to work on in my last days alive.
I have a brief reprieve but it may be long enough for the medical research groups to find a cure. I do have a good support group in my wife here at home but I have dealt with my mortality over the years here and dumping religion was a good first step. One of the side effects of living a reality centered life is peace of mind. The peace of mind offered by religions is temporary at best and you have to die to get to the promised benefits- your life does not change and is still as hard as it ever was with religion but if you use the church as a support group it is pretty lame compared to modern support groups you can find by the dozens in your local community. But, if you dump religion you have to deal with you, as a person, living in your time and place and if you go reality centered you go and learn the life skills you need to live well in your time and place.
What keeps people from getting reality centered is language. If I ask you to imagine a lemon tree you will be able to do so with no effort whatsoever as a side effect of how our brains process speech. Our entire knowledge base is anchored on ideas abou the world and not the world itself. The imaginary lemon tree you imagined, or remembered if you actually live where lemon trees grow will be very different. Nobody here in the Midwest ever imagines the large spikey thorns that lemon trees have and until they actually go and see a lemon tree in the real world will believe that their speech generated ideas about lemon trees is good enough or capable of helping them in any discussion about lemon trees in the future. But this kind of incomplete knowledge fills most people's heads. God is the same class of verbal construct as the lemon tree is because there are no gods, devils or demons out there to actually experience directly in the real world to get a comparison of their actual physical attributes. The promised benefits of religions are testable.
The vast majority of people in America are carrying with them a host of ideas about the world that are not anchored on actual things in the world but made up things. The research into the human brain shows that there is no such thing as an unconscious mind and yet that is one of the most prevalent beliefs out there in America today. Freud and Jung both created their own made up reasons for what the brain does in its pre-processing parts of conscious activity. Even in their own era both were not considered scientific and neither had proof of a second mind in our heads at all but this kind of pseudoscience peremeates our culture with Hollywood, the media and the Church all pushing nonsense as more vital and real than the real world itself. The notion of an unconscious mind came from buddhism and was another way of saying soul and that which transcends reality.
But more and more science people are pointing to these as an example of pseudoscience where they should be placed and were placed by the science communities out there during their rise to popularity. If you do the research into their lives you find that Jung was just another mystic applying wishful thinking to therapeutic life. Jung's entire stance was based on the Buddhist Akashic register, the memory repository for souls, which is the source of his archetypes and the repository of archetypes for his version of the soul, er, unconscious mind.
There is no quality control done in the psychotherapeutic world and a lot of new resarch says that it is causing harm instead of helping the people who need the help. The reason is because most of the psychotherapeutic thinking is based on liberal arts notions like the unconscious mind and not on actual detailed summaries of what works and what does not work. For the average human being out there a better approach will be to let go of the past and move on. Past trauma can easily dwarf and drown out the present for some but the most practical thing to do is forgive whoever wronged you so they can't continue to ruin your life in the present. Wasting a single moment over what happened in the past, no matter how horrific, only reinforces the already strong memories.
The world never stops changing and no situation is permanent is another piece of advice to take to heart as well. If your life sucks it is becaues of easily discernable causes and can be fixed with the univeral life fixer- new skills in either your field of work or in a field that pays a whole lot better. Last century or earlier solutions to life problems are a total waste of time and their failings can easily be found on the web these days so don't buy into any self help system or religious belief because they promise fixes for life problems because there are no general fixes for life problems that work for all becuase no two people are the same and no two people have the same gifts or detriments to success and everyone has to figure out how to succeed in the modern era, meaning their time and place, and not in the 1800's. Not a single career field I was told to check out in 1970 when I graduated from high school was there by 1985. I had to learn computer science to get into a field that was recession proof and provided enough income to make up for only being able to work part time for health and family reasons. I made between 35 and 70 an hour as a techno whore part timer and was able to match my wife's income as a school teacher whenever I had to work up to 9 months but I was stuck at home raising the kids and studying most of the time. I quit watching television on a regular basis back in the middle 80's and found out that between jobs I had a huge amount of time I could use to study computer science after the wife and kids were in bed. In three years time I went way beyond what the local universities were teaching or could teach about computer science just using television time to study in. Not only did I learn computer science well I also learned and keep up on hard science, too. The real world is vastly more interesting than any of the made up worlds and one of the biggest problems in the world is finding meaning and purpose in the world and that is where science far, far outshines the others.
Anyway, I want to get started on a book here that shows people how to live minus imaginary friends and hopefully give a much, much more positive spin on how to live in our current time and place in a much more fulfilling manner.
Anyone that wants to talk about this stuff can reach me at progon@hotmail.com. I will not read witnessing christian material for any reason. I have been there and done that with zero benefits to me and my family.
Respect begets respect. I'll probably feel a lot more friendly when all these religionists get their morals out of my private parts, my private life, and stop trying to tear down the wall of separation. Religion affects policies which affect me personally - as a non-believing taxpayer I have a BIG problem with that. Religious people need to keep their beliefs to themselves and their noses out of government. Like I always say: in order to fix a problem you have to understand the problem. If you want to get rid of that problem you have to "strike at the root". If you don't pull a weed up from its root what happens? It grows back. QED: http://www.publiceye.org/ifas/fw/index.html
Look far enough back in history, and people thought the world was flat.
Look far enough into the future, and people will realize this "heaven fantasy" is as real as Mickey Mouse and Snoopy.
People die. They do not "Go" anywhere, other than a coffin, deep in the soil.
Perhaps the biggest problem we have with "knowing" God, Truth, Reality (or whatever one wishes to call it), iwarrior, is the fact that we're trying to view a vast panorama through a tiny pinhole. To add to the difficulty, many assume that their awareness is already developed to it's full potential, and that nothing lies beyond it. Yet another factor that adds to this difficulty is that genuine spiritual awareness is exceedingly rare. Why this should be so is a mystery in itself.
To reduce God to a person or thing is ridiculous on the face of it (imagine a bearded Sky Daddy sitting on a cloud kicking His feet while looking down at mankind shaking his head). But that's the tendency, is it not? The tendency is to reduce the Absolute down to something we can personalize, which really means we want to make it into a glorified reflection of ourselves.
People want "salvation" or awakening to be simple and effortless, whereas it takes years of hard, and often embarrassing, inner work and watchfulness to even begin to crack the cocoon of self. To simply say "I believe" and accept someone as my personal savior without understanding the self who claims to accept that someone is meaningless. So few seem to see this.
I can't believe this discussion is still going on. I'm gettin' a metaphysical headache here reading this stuff. :) Whew! It is too much for my small, mortal mind to handle. The Power Cosmic beckons...
Anyway, I'd like to apologize for my remarks about atheists. I shouldn't have posted what I did. I've been told that I need a thicker skin.
I think religion and God are definitely issues where people just need to agree to disagree.
I can't prove God exists. But I believe nonetheless. If you don't, then ok. Let's try not to stuff it in each other's faces.
Has a believer ever converted an atheist? Has an atheist ever converted a believer? It's a battle that can't be won. We'll all find out when our lifesblood slips away.
Siouxrose and aymon, I'm getting the feeling that you two are not of this Earth. And I don't mean that in a demeaning way. Wow. :)
I'm on the fence regarding astrology. I read horoscopes and take them with a grain of salt, but on the other hand, being an Aquarius, I find that I seem to share the characteristics. It's something that has intrigued me ever since I was a child. Being considered an Aquarius has always made me feel slightly unique.
You seem to definitely be a student of it all Siouxrose. I was born Feb. 6th 1974 at approx. 11am. Maybe you can tell me something? :)
Right Siouxrose, they are NOT exactly the same, but NEARLY so within the cycles we are closest to. For example, Tuesday is never an hour shorter than Monday, and the seasons never jump directly from summer to winter, skipping fall, nor do the equinoxes change from year to year, relative to the position of the earth and sun. At least we can entertain the notion that the cycles we find ourselves in might compel us in ways we are not aware. Since there is some variation, though, however minute, change and development are allowed for within a secure framework. And don't forget the lesser cycles within cycles such as the procession of the equinoxes which give us a different north star every couple of thousand years!
peacenow June 12th, 2007 12:59 pm
"many followers of Marx...believe to this day that it can still work."
I have faith that they will, as they follow the immutable laws of human evolution, shed their naive, retrogressive belief, and adopt a more mature view consistent with evidence.
"There is no conclusive evidence that there is no God."
There is no conclusive evidence that Zeus doesn't hurl thunderbolts at the earth.
"no atheist has actual proof that there is no God, so yes, that is absolutely an article of faith."
Nupe - "faith" precedes evidence, and relegates it to second place; atheism forms a view of what is likely and unlikly based on evidence.
"My model is based on the idea that we are all connected and our actions matter. What is wrong with that?"
Sounds like something progressive atheists and progressive religious people could agree on. But it appears that you take an atheist point of view to be an implicit challenge or affront to your "model." Why is that?
"1) Followers of Marx made predictions based on a model…until evidence demonstrated the model had to be changed."
Actually, there are are many followers of Marx who believe to this day that it can still work.
"2) "atheists do operate by faith." I think faith is operative for atheists - but not in the religious sense of belief that does not depend on evidence."
There is no conclusive evidence that there is no God. Even Dawkins admits that.
"3) btw - "atheists…operate by faith" - all atheists? I thought they were not all the same…or is this a universal denominator…of the kind you seem to object to when I assert that faith is central to religion?"
Well, no atheist has actual proof that there is no God, so yes, that is absolutely an article of faith.
We all have faith on things unseen. Much of higher level physics is theoretical and cannot be proven through objective experiments.
I look at this from an existential point of view - we are all to a certain extent tied to our own models of ultimate reality. My model is based on the idea that we are all connected and our actions matter. What is wrong with that?
peacenow June 12th, 2007 12:20 pm
"Here's a direct quote from Herk earlier on this very thread:
The most singular fact about atheism, perhaps, is that it has no filters."
True, true - but...actually he meant what you mean: that it does not mean one thing, and there are varieties of atheism:
Herk June 10th, 2007 9:07 pm
"The most singular fact about atheism, perhaps, is that it has no filters. There is no dogma, no manual, no firm set of rules, and no master plan..."
And you:
"Of course not every atheist believesthe same things."
At any rate, I did not state atheism has no filters - so please follow your mutual view, and don't conflate my view with Herk's...
peacenow June 12th, 2007 12:20 pm
"To say that one's own point of view is rational and (most) others are not is presumptuous."
I said evidence and argument are central to atheist positions, whereas faith is crucial to religious positions. It's not so much that religion is irrational as that it's a-rational: it depends upon the view - stated in John - that faith is key and superior to evidence (that which is "seen"). It's not that it is un-reasonable, but that it discounts the significance of that which is available to reason as a basis for a religious view, instead calling on faith...
peacenow June 12th, 2007 12:20 pm
"atheists do operate by faith. Marxism had faith in the "natural" progression from capitalism to communism."
1) Followers of Marx made predictions based on a model which was based on evidence...until more evidence demonstrated the model had to be changed or discarded.
2) "atheists do operate by faith." I think faith is operative for atheists - but not in the religious sense of belief that does not depend on evidence.
3) btw - "atheists...operate by faith" - all atheists? I thought they were not all the same...or is this a universal denominator...of the kind you seem to object to when I assert that faith is central to religion?
peacenow June 12th, 2007 11:01 am
"atheism is no closer to objective reality than any religion. Saying that atheism is without filters is making an assumption."
I didn't say atheism is without filters. I don't think any atheist would say that. I said it uses evidence and arguments to arrive at its view of the world, and that - by contrast - religions require faith: belief in something not seen. Evidence of the natural world suggests natural origins of the world rather than supernatural origins.
"Notice, however, that JC doesn't say that people who need evidence are "cursed.""
No, JC doesn't. But that wasn't the point...the point was that religious doctrine actively invokes faith as crucial to its belief system.
"You are reducing this entirely to a battle between fundamentalist Christianity on one side and secular humanism on the other. That is a completely false dichotomy."
Whether or not religions require literal acceptance of doctrine, they depend on faith. The story of doubting Thomas is not to be taken literally. That is, it does not instruct people to believe the New Testament is literally true in every detail. A 'liberal' religious interpretation of the story, however, does point towards the importance of faith - in belief in what is not seen as key to religion.
"Atheism uses evidence and argument to explain the world; religion must reject evidence and argument, and invoke faith in a supernatural world.
Atheism arrives at its belief through evidence; religion arrives at its belief through faith."
However, the "evidence" is ultimately based on a form of faith in our own sense. Quantum theory has been misused by New Age types like the author of The Secret, but it did establish that the universe is not as finite or concrete as we once believed.
All I'm saying is that atheism is no closer to objective reality than any religion. Saying that atheism is without filters is making an assumption.
"Religion opposes faith to evidence. Don't consider evidence - just have faith and believe it is true:
"blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)"
Notice, however, that JC doesn't say that people who need evidence are "cursed."
"Think Christ wasn't the son of God and didn't rise from the dead? Think people are mortal? Think there are more satisfactory explanations of this story? Get faith."
You are reducing this entirely to a battle between fundamentalist Christianity on one side and secular humanism on the other. That is a completely false dichotomy. There are as many variations on religion and atheism as there are people in the world.
chessgames56 June 12th, 2007 8:33 am
"–The implication within atheism is that it understands the full potential of the human psyche, and disregards as superstition what cannot be physically perceived with the senses"
Religion opposes faith to evidence. Don't consider evidence - just have faith and believe it is true:
"blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:29)
Think Christ wasn't the son of God and didn't rise from the dead? Think people are mortal? Think there are more satisfactory explanations of this story? Get faith.
chessgames56 June 12th, 2007 8:33 am
"–The implication within atheism is that it understands the full potential of the human psyche, and disregards as superstition what cannot be physically perceived with the senses"
The "implication" within atheism is that there are more satisfactory explanations for thunderbolts than the superstitious one that Zeus is hurling them, and that these explanations are arrived at by evidence.
Atheism uses evidence and argument to explain the world; religion must reject evidence and argument, and invoke faith in a supernatural world.
--The implication within atheism is that it understands the full potential of the human psyche, and disregards as superstition what cannot be physically perceived with the senses (including scientific instruments which are an extension of the senses), or "proven" through logical or mathematical analysis. Atheism is unnecessarily one dimensional, which must of necessity lead its adherents to a kind of stiffness and cynicism. For example, "social Darwinism" would be a natural outcome of the atheistic philosophy.
Atheism arrives at its belief through evidence; religion arrives at its belief through faith.
--If you are attempting to make a case for atheism, it will be a poor one if you cannot distinguish between fact and belief. For evidence to be evidence in the first place, it must be open to validation, which does not require belief or faith; it either works or it does not. One does not need to have faith in a fact; a fact by definition is something that cannot be molded according to preference; it remains the same for all.
RE: KELMER'S VIEW THAT "SECULARISM" IS A RELIGION TOO. NOPE - Atheism uses evidence; religion requires faith.
kelmer June 8th, 2007 2:12 pm
"Secularism IS a religion....)Imagine a circle and label it universe) That's secularism: the belief that there is a material universe and there is nothing beyond it...."
"Imagine a circle and label it universe. Then put another circle around that one and label it god. That's theism: the belief that there is a material universe and a creator behind it."
Atheism uses evidence and argument to explain the world; religion must reject evidence and argument, and invoke faith in a supernatural world.
Atheism arrives at its belief through evidence; religion arrives at its belief through faith.
Right Siouxrose, from other talks, I know Guy is aware of this as well; remember that our solar system as a whole is part of a greater galactic cycle, where our sun and its planets circle the galactic core. Most predominately, though, we are affected by the cycles closest to us, and remain a kind of "captive" to their effects. For example, the earth spinning on its axis every 24 hours gives us night and day, which affects us more profoundly than, say, the orbit of Saturn. So with respect to us there are energy fields that more directly affect our day to day lives than others, and which provide us with an apparent uniformity year after year.
Guy states why this is important:
"Do you know why that's important? Because it means that all of the ways in which those planets and our earth itself in all its
RELATIONSHIPS—all the things that conspire to modify nature to create the world in which we see, they all do the same thing again..."
In the previous post you said:
"I think of the planets laid into very specific orbs as cosmic clockworks set there by the great Clockmaker…"
That is closer to the point Guy was trying to make, I think. Your clock analogy is a great one actually. The universal clock can be thought of as having a hierarchy of gears, where gears on the "lower" end, while ultimately dependent on the higher, only indirectly feel their influence. For example, our sun passes the influence of the Milky Way to the planets. The sun itself is the hub of the earth, while a spoke in the Milky Way.
The point here is that we find ourselves, as inhabitants of earth, more directly influenced by some forces/cycles than others. And if we are not aware moment to moment--i.e., conscious of our inner states--we end of being mechanical within the scope of these forces (energies), and a slave to a conditioned self (ego) that becomes hardened over time. Religions have referred to this as living in darkness, unconsciousness, illusion, ignorance, spiritual sleep, and a state of inner captivity, and also as being the cause of all psychological suffering. It's really fascinating when you look at the face of it.
"Do you know—and I've said this before in a few talks—Did
you know that every 365 days that this earth and all the planets in
the solar system—that the earth itself, as do all the celestial
bodies, returns to almost, and the difference is so minute that it
can hardly be measured—returns to almost exactly the same place it
was the year before? All things return to almost exactly the same
place." WHOA! This is absolutely INACCURATE. What is accurate is that the cycles remain the same. I think of the planets laid into very specific orbs as cosmic clockworks set there by the great Clockmaker... the moon is in a 29 day orb around the earth, Mercury's orb is 88 days, Venus is about 250 and Mars about 560 (I am not looking up the exact orbits, these are approximations), but the outer planets, Jupiter--12 year orb, Saturn, 29, Uranus 84, Neptune 165, and Pluto 248... thus the EARTH in a movement of a year will NOT return to a position exactly relevant to the others, because the others are moving in their separate orbs. There are cycles of periodicity, like Jupiter-Saturn align at their midpoint, i.e. every 20 years. According to astrology the force that is mandated to concretize and hold to OLD form (i.e. uphold traditions and buck against change) is represented by Saturn, whereas Uranus has been designed (and it's related to periods of revolution) to challenge the status quo so that new amalgams can be made possible.
I will come back to this discussion tomorrow... it's worth greater scrutiny and response, but it's 11:30 my time and my brain is telling me it's had enough! Sweet dreams, metaphysicians! Our political world view is more greatly informed by this discussion of ultimate meaning(s)!
"
Simply type this into google:
define: religion
. . . and you'll see that it's difficult to find a definition of the word that does not involve deity.
(And if you can find one, that does not mean that you can apply it whenever convenient in an argument.) To reiterate an old saw: "atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair color.""
I have a copy of Webster's right here, and while the first definiton is "Belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe," the third definiton is "Any specific system of belief, worship, conduct, etc. often involving a code of ethics and a philosophy." That is a perfectly workable definition of religion. You forget that Buddhism (which is very much a religion) is agnostic on the presence of a supreme deity, as are Taoism and Confucianism.
"The most singular fact about atheism, perhaps, is that it has no filters. There is no dogma, no manual, no firm set of rules, and no master plan. To imply that being rational somehow is a worldview is equivalent to an engineer designing an automobile being a cult member. Atheists are not a group, although they may belong to one. Atheism says nothing about belief except as regarding deities."
You are, of course, assuming that all religions are homogeneous, and that all believers believe in exactly the same way. The engineer is not a "cult member," but he or she nonetheless subscribes to a specific worldview.
Atheism is indeed an absence of deities, and yet it is nonetheless a filter, as even an atheist does not see the world exactly as it truly is. No human has ever "seen" or "felt" an atom, nor have they "seen" ultraviolet light or "heard" very high frequencies. Numbers have no inherent transcendent value, other than what we place upon them. We can only speak of these through metaphors, which is in fact a worldview. I am not saying that atheism is a religion, but it is very much a "filter" as it were of whatever you want to call ultimate reality. It is not in any sense objective reality.
In the ultimate sense, we are all agnostic about the nature of ultimate reality. However, some of us get a lot of strength from a worldview that includes some form of divine power. That in and of itself is not dangerous.
"The order welcomes diversification, isn't that what evolution is all about?"
From one aspect, yes. As you mention there is an underlying order within living diversity. Take carbon-based life, for example. DNA and its processes are common to every life-form, which points to a physical unity.
In your posts you cite Hermes: "As above, so below." I believe Gurdgieff/Ouspensky said something similar. Science now knows that the most abundant element in the universe is hydrogen (an electron/proton pair), and theorize that all the other elements are fused from it in supernovas. Further, the macro is assembled from the building blocks of the micro. This is interesting because while the atheist might use the seeming randomness of diversity to defend his position, the theist will cite the unity in this diversity and attribute it to God or the Absolute.
Returning to the discussion about how cosmic or celestial cycles might make other phenomena (including behavior) prone to repetition, Guy Finley says there is a TENDENCY for things to repeat themselves in the same or nearly the same way, which psychologically translates to a tendency for conditioning to strengthen according to it's original pattern, but in no way suggests that this MUST be so. This is a largely mechanical process, of course. Here is an excerpt from a recent (or relatively recent) talk:
"Do you know—and I've said this before in a few talks—Did
you know that every 365 days that this earth and all the planets in
the solar system—that the earth itself, as do all the celestial
bodies, returns to almost, and the difference is so minute that it
can hardly be measured—returns to almost exactly the same place it
was the year before? All things return to almost exactly the same
place. Do you know why that's important? Because it means that all of
the ways in which those planets and our earth itself in all its
relationships— all the things that conspire to modify nature to create
the world in which we see, they all do the same thing again which, by
the way, in case you can't see it, is why we have summer, spring,
winter, and fall, over and over and over again, exactly the same
seasons, and the only thing different is that one flower grows here
two inches away from where on grew two inches before, and a few more
petals and a few more creatures and a few more or a few less insects,
but essentially all those conditions conspire to produce—ESSENTIALLY- -
the exact same conditions that they did before because that's what
that life, that broader set of energies does when it meets the matter
of this earth and the energy it takes; it produces nearly the same
thing! On the physical plane, this process is vital to continuance of
the existence of all of life.
"Now, here is somebody and they have a problem with somebody. Ever
have a problem with somebody? The minute you have a problem with
somebody, what do you do? You start thinking about it, don't you?
Frantically, you say to yourself, "What do I do? How can I get
everything back so I don't feel upset or disturbed anymore? I have to
get things back to where I can feel at peace again, etc.." I'm
thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking.
"Now, listen, try to get the big picture. Do you understand, as the
whole of this life moves through its circulating system, that the
condition that produced that moment in which you are now thinking
about that person, that that condition has come ten thousand times or
more, and ten thousand times or more you responded with the same KIND
of thought toward what your mind said the event was about? In other
words the movement of this life, this broad life, of which we live in
multiple worlds at once—my God you know the moon moves the whole
ocean, don't you? What do you think the collective scale of this
solar system, of all the things we see is? You don't think there's a
consistent scale of modifying forces creating—listen— similar events
over and over and over again? The POTENTIAL for events, whose
potential is what? Whose potential is to get inside of you the same
response again and again and again!
"So the actual events in the world may be slightly different. For
instance, now it's Israel and Lebanon, or whoever it is, and
yesterday it was in the Balkans. It may be slightly different
relative to the KIND of thing, but it is not different relative to
the general forces involved..."
Chessgame: We have to stop meeting like this (LOL). I just wanted to make sure readers understand that things, cosmically speaking are NOT exactly the same when the earth returns to where it was 365 days ago. That sounds like something as convincing as Creationism straight off right wing radio. Years ago I met a very adept martial arts instructor who tried to tell me (arguing it!) that he had Pluto in Scorpio. I told him it was factually IMPOSSIBLE since he was a few years younger than me, and Pluto did not enter Scorpio until l983. Certain things ARE facts. One thing I love about the astro-logos as template of active principles in our world is that the planets appear to hold mandated functions, and yes, the clockworks are an elaborate setting of resonant gears. Thus the part of human nature and history that resists change is Saturn; but that driving force is counterbalanced by the liberating force of Jupiter, and Uranus' as champion of change through spontaneous new developments and/or necessity posing as mother of invention.
Although our ancestors told time by the moon and women's bodies still do (menstrual cycle is directly clocked to the moon), the outer planets exert influences that have MAJOR bearing in our world. My challenge as an astrologer with progressive beliefs is that the astrology community tends to shy away from political discourse, whilst the left wing (with the exception of the posting site to which I am very grateful) tends to borrow the old religious castigation of astrology by presupposing it's "flaky." I believe it's important for someone with my understanding of the "As above, so below" relationship to share the information for two reasons: 1. it explains a lot regarding present events and 2. this understanding can act as "sign language" to save us from repeating history's calamities. Naturally we cannot argue FOR our limitations (belief wise) and expect different outcomes (definition of insanity).
When the Berlin wall came down, Jupiter, the liberator was passing through Cancer, the sign in which we say it is exalted, or empowered. This occurs every 12 years, but what made the Berlin Wall event so breathtaking (and cosmically in synch) was that just then some heavyweight planets were crossing Capricorn, the Saturn-ruled sign of walls as well as conventional bastians of power and tradition-based authority. Opposing planets are equivalent to a rubber band stretching to its max. Something's gotta give. In this case, it was the wall. I wrote a piece on the planetary alignments that have helped to facilitate the rabid rightwing trend of America that was published in one of 2 American venues that publishes astrology, Dell Horoscope Magazine. I plan to eventually expand this thesis into a book on Why Conservative Periods Recur. One key notion is that when time is perceived as linear, there is the conceit that "the enemy has been vanquished, and progress against evil has been made." If we instead realize that our planet is part of a field where all particating bodies circle, then we begin to realize themes recur and come full circle. We can therefore prepare our efforts before the entire wave comes upon us. Saturn is that which seeks total control. It rules Capricorn--and while enlightened Capricorns can become luminous statesmen/women, the paranoid types like Richard Nixon, Carl Rove and J. Edgar Hoover are very dangerous. The HIGH Capricorn values are seen in Ben Franklin, Lewis Lapham, Phil Donahue and no doubt many others. The circle gives us the cosmic geometry that shows--it's Creator's chess game--how one principle taken out of proportion can implode the balance; and which planet/sign/principles are positioned by GRACE to overcome the trespass of that principle that has gone askance. Today the SATURN energy is coming into grave power as the planet of death, rebirth and (Pluto-Hades) covert forms of power (as in secret government operations, spying on citizens, offshore prisons, no accountability, failure of checks and balances, complicit press, etc) prepares to enter Capricorn in 2008. This position will oppose the US (July 4/Cancer) and eventuate in bringing the nation to its knees. HUGE tension among forces in Aries (private militias, free individual rights), Libra (social justice, the legal system), and Capricorn (state power using fear and controls) all clash... NOT gonna be any picnic, and WE on commondreams who see the forming disaster are the nation's Cassandras. I am not sure if I plan to remain in the US after 2009... there are many things that remind me of the Jews and how they couldn't believe what was happening in their midst, thus electing to stay too long... whereas they could not get out. Often I think this whole anti-immigration ruse is a means to close our borders and get the infrastructure in place for a veritable lock down. Not too heartwarming to learn of secret prisons. So many on this site SEE the next act because they have been wise enough to peer behind the curtain and NOTE the step by step set changes induced by the thugs who have taken control of this land and its assets. This is going to be one of the ugliest phases in US history, but LIGHT will emerge from the dark sarcophagus...
Thanks everyone for a very insightful discussion! You have left me with much to ponder.
Chessgame: The order welcomes diversification, isn't that what evolution is all about? Life forces utilize creative adaptation potentials and from the pool of possibilities infinitely (so long as they are not forced by authoritarians to line up in rows, monoculture-style, or by genetic equivalent of shot gun weddings in biotech) form new amalgams. Things operate according to the laws that govern their nature, but I believe Creation is still creating itself. The dance between yin and yang is writ into DNA and atomic structures (as the magnetic interplay between electrons/negative and protons/positive force). As for being a Cancer, it's a tough sign for a man because Cancer is a yin watery sign that equates very directly with emotions and feelings (not to mention home and the past, also instincts). To the sign's credit (In this case Bush, a cancer is a braindead example) it has a great memory, and that alone is a chief component in the learning process.
I recently finished a book that is radical and a unique hybrid between astrology and mythology. My contention is that each new moon (these occur at a regular rate of every 29 days) the sun and moon meet. I call it a cosmic marriage. As a fertile marriage gives rise to a child, in Moon Dance, I explain that new moon gives rise to the birth of an archetype. As the sun and moon generally meet in each successive sign in due order (during June there is a blue moon, thus 2 sets of the same influence, i.e. it recurs) their union invokes the archetype "that dwells there." It's arguable whether as Jung expressed it, the energy actually derives from the collective unconscious or from the ethers themselves. The thing that's certain is time comes in flavors, no two days are alike, the calendar lies to us (perfect for workers, that each day is portrayed as generically alike, a little square generic slot marching in linear formation) in this regard. Women are biologically (via their menstrual cycles) clocked to the moon. When I read an article in MS 10 plus years ago citing statistics in the MANY millions for the numbers being proscribed anti-depressant drugs, I felt it was time to take a greater understanding of the themes of time out of the proverbial closet. It mystifies me the way our culture looks blithely upon overt sexuality (even in minors) and violence, but still sees astrology as a great taboo. As if looking up to expand our realization about our links to something greater than the folly of this world is "sinful." If I can't find an agent or publisher (the search IS on) I will self-publish this one. It's important as it unlocks a key to the rhythm structures that underlie women's emotional tide cycles. I remember years ago when (how I miss him!) Phil Donahue had a fascinating talk show. One program that stood out in my mind (although it seemed very funny to me at the time) was a male support group for men whose wives suffered from intense PMS. We ladies DO go through changes... but here's the caveat, guy... in a world that's too often smiled upon polygmay, suppose the plan was that through the female enactment of the great Moon Dance, her partner is privileged to share his life (and bed) with 12 equivalent partners? If anyone has read this far, hope that comment tweaks some old libidinal chords.
Chessgame: I don't know what kind of chess player you are, but your capacity to express complex connections amid things is poetic. Points you raise bring to mind the film, "What the Bleep Do we know" in two cases made by the film. 1. That our behavior becomes so conditioned and codified that our nerve receptors actually fall into their own programming. 2. That when Buddhist monks pray over water, the molecular structure actually alters. I spent time (really one of the most spiritually amazing events of my life) at a Buddhist monastery outside of Kathmandu, Nepal. People (most in their 20's) came from all over the world to study meditation and Buddhist philosophy. At the end of our 10 day intensive, we were taken on a tour through one of the high monk's home to see relics. As a result of lives of very focused meditation, the hair of the deceased monk had been rendered like copper wire, and some of his blood (they kept it) had coagulated to form equivalent pearls. Many schools of spirituality focus on the human being's mastery of thoughts and the emotions these give rise to. Edgar Cayce revealed the managing the "emotional bodies" was the hardest task while a human took incarnated form. This runs congruent with the Biblical, "He who conquers himself is greater than he who conquers a city." My favorite book (it's out of print) on one soul's journey through lifetimes in pursuit of evolutionary growth and "mastery," is "The Wheel of Rebirth," by H.L. Chaloner. The Theosophical Society, in general, produces the best authors (in my view) on this subject. Another series that really sheds light on the current Middle East situation is, "The Wisdom and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East." A series of books, it started out with British academics going to India to REFUTE claims made about the powers of purported gurus. The work chronicles what takes place, it's Indiana Jones meets the mystics; and apart from German academics, no nation produces minds so overtly concerned with logical-letter-of-the-law applications than the Brits. (Think Mary Poppins and "A British bank is run with precision, a British home requires nothing less...") Another way of making this point, albeit humorously, is that when I had to catch a bus or train in London, they were NEVER late. In Puerto Rico, where on a crowded bus you are unlikely to find two watches set with the same exact time, you wait for whenever the driver might feel like showing up. So Einstein's theory of relativity could be well served in the sociological past time of observing how cultures perceive and organize their lives around this nebulous issue we call time.
Oh, and Chessgame: I don't really agree about the quality of cycles in terms of being alike. Remember, every snowflake has 6 sides, but no two are alike. As each cycle recurs, this takes place (picture intricate clockwork mechanisms where the movable parts all impact the same system) in reference to other resonant cycles that exist at different mathematical rates. In other words, every time Pluto returns to Capricorn (begins in 2008) the OTHER planets are not necessarily where they were the last time it was there; thus its expression in a "unified field" impregnated by the diverse projections of the other planetary players is altered as per "context." In this case a cosmic one. "As above, so below." Hermes was right.
Like Frank Zappa once said: "TAX THE CHURCHES"
Thank you all for your thoughtful posts. It's interesting to see subtle and not so subtle beliefs regarding the pyramids of Egypt and astrological and planetary connections with respect to our spiritual journey and lives. It is clear that we live a universe of cycles within cycles, great wheels spinning within other great wheels. Brings to mind Ouspensky's Law of Three and Law of Seven, where a "Ray of Creation" proceeds through successive "triads," elaborate and beautiful at the same time. Whatever theory ones subscribes to, one can see that everything is interconnected. This means, ultimately, that everything is in RELATIONSHIP with everything else (See David Bohm's theory of undivided wholeness).
According to Guy Finley, each cycle the celestial bodies go through is identical to the previous one, except for a minute difference that is nearly imperceptible. Without this difference, he says, our natures would be fixed and transformation impossible. However, it is the sameness of each cycle that compels us to remain the same, much as it compels the seasons to recur in almost exactly the same way.
Whether aware of it or not we, at any given moment, live in a multi-dimensional universe, a universe immersed in eternity, even as it changes physically before our eyes. The problem we face is that our essence, which is by nature eternal, has been hijacked by conditioning, or a false sense of self. This false self, or artificial nature is like an impostor that acts in our name. So rather than see reality as it is, we see it as we are, through a veil of conditioned preference, which some might call ego.
Rather than meeting the present moment in a state of essence or undivided wholeness, then, we meet it through images and labels acquired from the past, thereby bringing the old into the new! As a consequence of unconscious comparison, what should be fresh turns stale, and relationship itself becomes a process of conflict and disintergration instead of renewal. Moreover, as inner conflict and division increase, entrophy sets in, stealing the precious energy needed to transcend it, which becomes a vicious circle.
At some point, a kind of crystallization takes place and essence becomes stuck like a butterfly in amber, no longer able to spread its wings and fly. And the individual no longer cares about transformation or inner freedom (if he or she ever did).
Bill Pepin:
Many of your points about scientifc orthodoxies and priesthoods are valid. Thomas Kuhn, the famous philosopher of science and debunker of the Popperian view that science proceeds pristinely without political conflict, jealousy, social clubs that bar entry to scientists not hawking the party line was a bunch of hogwash. His magnum opus on this:THE STRUCTURE OF SCIENTIFIC REVOLUTIONS is worth a read if you want to know famous scientists throughout history who have suffered similar fates. This is the perrenial tension between "normal science" as he calls it(i.e. the orthodoxy) who have a lot invested in the incumbent world view, and the revolutionaries who bring about complete upheavals. Even Einstein, who introduced his own revolutions was adamantaly opposed to the Bohr-Heisenberg quantum physics as it gives subatomic particles no physical existence but a probability distribution that can manifest the particle at any point where a classical measurement is made. Hence his famous words: "GOD DOES NOT PLAY DICE". It was only the fame of Bohr and Heisenberg by which they were able to withstand the assault of the world's most celebrated physicist.
I am not, in principle, aginst atheists. I like and hold in the highest regard many of them. Indeed, Bertrand Russel is one my favourite philosophers, and he was an awowed atheist. The difference between him and many other atheists ,though,from a progressive humanist's perspective is that many of them are aligned to the forces of exploitation and destruction, and are extreme right wing libertarians and fanatics when it comes to economics of which they know nothing. They have no social conscience, and yet are the the most vocal and in- your- face shills for Darwinian capitalism. Prime examples are Dawkins and Dennet (who are trained scientists but also exibit the very traits of orthodox scientists that you are condemning). Many exploitative, completely merciless capitalists are also atheists, and supported by atheistic "academics" in the same manner as the people you condemn. An example is Milton Friedman, the guru of neo-conservative, "survival- of the- fittest" capitalism, and Chair of Reagan's Council of Economic advisors in the 1980's.
Let me talk about Dawkins specifically. He wants to provide "just so" evolutionary stories about human behviour to the point that he says all of it is pre-determined by genetic/evolutionary forces, including rapine, mass murder and so on. I must say, I was surprised to find him to be among the most severe critic of GWBush in 2003. At any rate his and other Western scientists conflict is with Judeo- Christian Creationism and anthropomorphisms. But then they dump all belief systems in the World, most of them having no such crazy creationism as the Christian Evangelical literlists propose. They ony say that the Universe came into existence billions of years ago and life developed on Earth AND elsewhere in the Universe from forms of energy in a way that humankind will probably never understand.
That is not at all an unscientific position to take. For example, the principle Egyptian cosmological doctrine for 3000 years BC, and it is echoed in Hindu cosmology, was that in the beginning there was Primordial Chaos called Nun that is basically undescribable, and from it arose a self-organising principle called the Light(for want of better word in English) that then proceeded to unleash all the forces of the physical Universe, keeping other supra Universes to itself or other life-forms of Light. Now how different is this from the "big bang" theory? The Hindu cosmology puts this event at 4.32 - 8.64 billion years. That certainly is nearer to scientific estimates then the 6000 year nonsense from Christian Evangelists! So how is this form of belief against any science since Egyptian priests conducted the most meticulous astronical measurements because the Universe was the face of RAH-THE LIGHT. The word for pyramids was MER-maening a "place of acension" to the stars.
Furthermore, Dawkins ignores the most crucial question about the origins of Life on Earth. It is that all life emerged only in LEFT LIGHT BENDING amino acid molecules even though the oceans were filled with equal amounts of left and right bending molecules. As a probailist, I can tell you that if the emergence of light was a random event, then how on Earth could the life process, an inanimate force according to Dawkins and his follower Dennett having no intelligence, somehow search the geometry of the molecules and order only left bending molecules to procreate and tell the right bending ones to stand down in any statistically meaning ful sense?
THE LEFT -RIGHT MYSTERY IS ONE OF THE BIGGEST UNRESOLVED PROBLEMS OF SCIENCE
It is so mysterious that biologists are now conceding that life came to Earth already formed on a meteorite, based on the evidence of the Murchison meteorite. Thus the ancient "religious" cosmologists of Egypt were literally more knowledgeable about the origins of life when they claimed life came from the stars at the comand of Rah.
Dawkins in many of his books, and I have read some of them until I got fed-up with the flaws in logic and the screed of in- your- face atheism he was and is peddling, completely ignores this issue.
Whereas Bertrand Russel was not in- your- face but much more gentle (see his WHY I AM NOT A CHRISTIAN). He was in the forefront of many progressive movements including the absolute ban on nuclear weapons. I have never seen Dennet, Hitchens, Dawkins take any principled stand on this issue.
Therefore please do not paint all of us progressives who have beliefs based on the strongest arguments in logic, as well as personal experience of phenomena that cannot be logically explained as I have talked about as well as a number of other commentators have on this thread. Many of us have absolutely no quarrel with humane atheists. I have my quarel only with the type of atheist who ignores fundamenatl qustions about the origins of Life and other purely science and mathematics mysteries and our ability to know them even though they have no empirical presence.
AYMON
Aymon: I should have guessed you were Aquarius. I am familiar with the great cycles and the concept of the Yugas, although your math is more exact than anything I have yet read. If any readers are following our "celestial dialog," I'd like to add something here (and again thank you for taking the time to explain very complex phenomena that the vast majority have been taught to ignore or see as some kind of fictional account) and that is the current mutual reception underway. If readers look to the stellar blueprint--that is to say, the Zodiac arrangement--as a map of time based on codified principles; that it is not that they "cause" events, but they show us the energetic themes at play, then the language of the heavens can guide us, as the sextant was used by ancient explorers to navigate across uncharted seas. Mutual reception means 2 planets are crossing each other's signs. Why it's important and unique at our present juncture is because Uranus represents the sign of Aquarius, and this sign is the one most KEYED into Truth. The zodiac is composed of 4 basic elements, of which there are 3 expressions (of each). I teach students that Gemini, the first of the air signs, represents what we call primary education: "reading, writing and 'rithmetic." The fundaments of language are here made possible, and that takes us to Libra, the 2nd octave of the air trinity. To the extent Gemini makes language a vehicle for two or more persons to understand each other, a basic bridge to understanding is formed. From this bridge, law and agreements (Libra is the sign of codified justice principles) are made possible, so that people can share a world. Aquarius is the highest octave of air expression, that of direct knowing. This does not mean Aquarius is always right, as we all have egos and blindspots. MANY Aquarians have been visionaries, at least born to shake up the status quo and challenge the rules. Darwin and Gallileo are 2 good examples. So Uranus symbolizes the path of Aquarius, members in good standing of the 11th ray coalition! Meanwhile, the last sign, which closes the circle which by its very nature has NO final point: Pisces sign of paradox, not to mention 2 fish facing one another antagonistically. Pisces should be the sign of compassion, but as those fish demonstrate, the world is now beset with conflict on the basis of religious belief systems contesting one another. Pisces is ruled by Neptune, also known as Poseidon, god of the sea. If I remember my biology correctly, that's where all the fossil fuel deposits stem from. Interesting this war over oil at the END of the Piscean Age. And guess who's Pisces? Israel's Sharon, Ralph Nader, Russ Feingold, Bin Laden, and Mitt Romney. It's interesting their roles at this time. The state of Florida, incorporated as an entity at the end of February is also a Pisces state, and its election fishy business definitely played a key role in giving the world this "delightful" adminstration. Pisces is the sign of crucifixtion, martyrdom, suffering, self-undoing, and the proverbial "shooting one's self in the foot." This war for oil, the folly of present greed-driven policy fits the shoot the self in the foot quite aptly. And here's the clincher, which will conclude my "argument," and complete the message of the mutual reception. Neptune as ruler of Pisces began a once in 165 year crossing of Aquarius (sign of truth) in l998 to remain till 2012. Uranus, ruler OF the sign of truth, is crossing Pisces (domain of delusion and duality) from 2003-2010. ALL predictive sciences are open to the altering facts of free will. Still, the Mayans chose 2012, and there will be quite a conflictful set of astrological dynamics in the heavens from 2010-2016. I expect MAJOR disruptions in the US as the US is a nation (Cancer, July 4) directly involved. For the sign of TRUTH (Aquarius) to be "born," mankind must learn to separate the wheat from the chaff. The control of media, the 24/7 mainstream messages that seduce the sheep and create false needs while numbing the public to true events, the difficulty FINDING accuracy... indeed these things make that which is laboring to be born a tough process. In that respect, every mind that awakens, questions these fools for kings/authority figures, the lies of old religious figures adds to the critical mass of LIGHT seeking to be born from the quagmire that mass consciousness has been ensconced in for centuries. Truly as the World Social Forum attests, "Another World is possible." It begins with our minds and what we can envision. I believe higher forces do support our efforts, just as whatever mythology accords with "the dark side," also plays its part. Aymon, I hope goodbye was just a good evening wish, not a final statement. If so, may the stars be with you; and again, thank you for using your precious time to shed LIGHT in this forum.
And Bill Peppin: if you think your buddy has it tough in the science community (where only orthodoxy is acceptable) imagine us heretics! I can still feel the burns from centuries ago!
Grandma quoted this:
"Personally, I've concluded that there is no need for belief. There is "to know", "not know" and "non-computable." Sorting criteria is based on objective and verifiable evidence. Anything else lacks a yardstick or metric to separate it from hallucination, fantasy, drug-induced vision, psychosis, etc."
And indeed, many of the comments here posted, well-considered to be sure, have stepped lightly around one of the great travesties of our times, which is: science in this country, and elsewhere, has a very large component of faith embedded within it. Specifically, I mean that in any science (see Smolin's recent book on String theory for a full discussion of this in the hottest topic in the hardest, most prestigious science,) there is an orthodoxy. That orthodoxy is extremely reluctant to allow into the refereed literature a position that questions the fundamental tenents of that orthodoxy. A good example I know of in my own studies is Wegener and continental drift. His work in early 20th century was a model of careful, excellent science, and was ridiculed by the earth science orthodoxy for 40 years. It was only because another group, OUTSIDE this orthodoxy, started to gather information pertinent to the subject that it was discovered that the sea floors were young and in motion, more than 20 years after this assertion appeared in a textbook by Arthur Holmes.
Today I adduce another example, that of Jeff Shaffer, who tried for 8 years in the 1990s to get a PhD degree from UC Berkeley (my own alma mater, I'm ashamed to say.) His claim in brief: glaciers had little to do with the shaping of Yosemite Valley or, indeed, any of the deep canyons on the Sierra westside. Well, they never bothered to comment on four drafts of his 400-page thesis, and basically kicked him out. Some background is in order. Jeff is a climber and naturalist who has published numerous guidebooks for Sierra trail walkers. He became interested in the glacier stuff owing to his interest in the mountains, starting as a believer in the standard story told by Matthes and Huber, accepted at this date, now ten years after Jeff published his thesis work through Wilderness Press. Since that time, Jeff has bothered to follow out stuff further, and claims, with full justification insofar as I know at present (I'll be walking to some of the critical sites myself this summer to check on it personally) that NO! evidence exists anyplace in the Yosemite uplands to corroborate the existence of very large glaciers in Yosemite during pre Tahoe times, that is, 200K years ago. He has walked to ALL! of the sites mentioned by Matthes in his "classic" 1930 paper where deposits of "pre-Tahoe" glaciers are mentioned, and he either finds nothing at all or evidence that is highly ambiguous or, in one noteworthy case, demonstrably incorrect.
(Matthes cites a "large glacial erratic" of the pre-Tahoe glaciers by Artist Point; Jeff's book shows, in a picture, that this so-called
erratic is joined underneath to the bedrock.) If no large pre-Tahoe glacier, then the assertion would have to be that quite modest glaciers, maximum depth not more than about 1,200 feet, did massive amounts of widening of deepening of Yosemite Valley, not credible on the face of it. Bottom line: apparently all that Jeff says about the history of Sierra uplift and glaciation is likely correct, and at complete variance with the orthodoxy. Consequently, he has been unable to get his work, based on hundreds of days in the field and 5,000 miles of walking in the mountains, into a refereed journal. The orthodoxy holds that: (1) all mountain ranges of the world which are high and rugged arose in late Cenozoic times, (2) glaciers are able to do massive excavation in areas of hard rock in temperate climates. Since Jeff's stuff says this is untrue in the Sierra, he can't even get people in the field to come out with him to crucial sites, and nobody has every advanced criticism of his work in writing that invalidates his basic findings. The continued clinging to (1) and (2) above is based on an act of faith, not reference to the verifiable record that can be seen plainly on the ground.
This is what the post modernists, including Intelligent-Design [sic] proponents love. They say, there is no truth, no set of facts that can be interpreted a certain way, thus, their faith-based chronologies that have the Grand Canyon, one mile deep, being created by a worldwide flood in 3 weeks are just as good as the traditional geologic explanation. This, dangerously, gives them license to put up such things as a "creation museum" in Kentucky, which shows people and dinosaurs wandering around flower fields together and the like.
In summary: we need to be very careful when we draw a sharp distinction between faith-based matters as they come in conflict with science (creation vs. evolution, for instance.) The science naysayers do have grounds to make an argument that their "science" [sic] is as good as anybody else's. I hasten to say that I reject this kind of argument as horrendous, self-serving sophistry that does disservice to all who would see religion separate from politics, and nobody's religion, or lack thereof, foisted upon any unwilling person.
Peacenow said:
"The thing is, though, that being rational and skeptical is nonetheless a worldview that you adopt. One point that the self described "mystic agnostic" Robert Anton Wilson makes is that there is no such thing as a human worldview that can be defined as objective reality. In fact, he denied the very existence of any objective reality. If you're an atheist, you still see the world through an atheist filter. That's what people mean when they call secularism or atheism a religion."
Rationality and skepticism are tools. They must be used in some degree by anyone who wants to live another day. These tools do not, in themselves, constitute a worldview. Regarding religion, perhaps understanding more clearly the definitions of the word will be enlightening as to why an atheistic stance is not one.
Simply type this into google:
define: religion
. . . and you'll see that it's difficult to find a definition of the word that does not involve deity.
(And if you can find one, that does not mean that you can apply it whenever convenient in an argument.) To reiterate an old saw: "atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hair color."
The most singular fact about atheism, perhaps, is that it has no filters. There is no dogma, no manual, no firm set of rules, and no master plan. To imply that being rational somehow is a worldview is equivalent to an engineer designing an automobile being a cult member. Atheists are not a group, although they may belong to one. Atheism says nothing about belief except as regarding deities.
Georges Abbe' Lemaitre, the Catholic priest who first proposed the Big Bang theory must have been rational and skeptical. Odd - he doesn't seem to fit the atheist profile.
You simply cannot twist absence of belief into a lifestyle, even though it is far more likely that a rational person will come to the conclusion that there are no deities and no real magic. These attempts to put atheism into a box so that it can more readily be dismissed are certainly tiresome. I was rational before I was an atheist. My "worldview" has far more to do with my understanding of personal interactions and politics and economy than it does with my lack of believing.
And to those who would say that "atheism" is a negative word: I say that it is no more negative than non-believer, not superstitious, not credulous, non-zealot, or un-sheeplike. I have no problem with it. Sometimes, it's just fine to be negative about something. For the record, I'm also a-santa, a-easterbunny, a-toothfairy, and I haven't bought any bridges lately.
Sioux Rose:
Thank you for your patience and deep intuitive understanding of many things in the eternal consciousness that we are all heir to. A person of Light recognizes another of Light, and so I recognize your Light which is deeply intuitive and personal and comes from the peace of the forest as the sages in the Upanishads and in Egypt.
When you mention the Zodiac, and the number 12 and its variations that occur in all mystical literature then I know that you are being led in the right direction, especially your recgnition of Jesus as the archon of the age of Pisces. The cycles of time that the ancient Egyptians used for a complete revolution of human form as well as consciousnes is 360,000 years. To this the Hindus added 36,000 years for "sunrise" an "sunset" of the age, producing a cycle (Yug) of 432,000 years. And 10 yugs make one Mahayug, requiring ten avatars (which should be considered as "descents" of the Light but not as incarnations)
My claim that the Anglo-American hegemony has only 10 more years left comes from the 2160 year travel of the Earth through a Zodiacal sign, and the coming age of Aquarius, which is my sign, that will dawn somewhere around CE 2050.
The Light provides me intution for which I have no deductive explanation but it has not failed me to date, that each precessional age of what Plato called the "Great Year" ( 12 x 2160) has three major civilizations in it of 720 years (about 10 x the biblical age of a human as "3 score and ten" which I believe should be 3x20+12 = 72). In each civilization there are three major centres of power and command of 240 years each. The Light increases the life span of either civilization or power centre according to how many much good has flowed out of that to humankind and the Earth. America has used up its 240 years since 1776 to accumulate wealth and power and sow death and destruction. Its end is decreed by the Laws of the Universe as 2016. Its sunset period of 36 years started in 1990.
It is up to the people of America to become righteous and compassionate in the remaining years, and the Light may extend or ameliorate its fall by its Grace. Like all peoples of military civilizations, however, there is far too much racial and other hubris and belief in the technologies of destruction ingrained in the people, and they are now paralysed by conflicting emotions to stop their demonaic leaders from leading them into the fall. It is good that many righteous people and peace groups have begun to feel in their bones that vast destruction of innocent human life will meet a very difficult reckoning from the Universe through the entropy accummulated internally and the casting off by "mother" Earth.
I have now revealed what is in store as I have been instructed to do. Yet nothing is cast in stone, even at this late date if the cummulative voice of the righteous peoples stop the murderous destruction of peoples and the Earth and commit their wealth in large risk sharing exercises around the world. 30,000 little children die a day from hunger and disease that can be prevented for just $150 each. If even one year's of the death of 30,000x365 children are saved by the righteous peoples of America, Grace will descend from the Light to help remove the evil albatross around your necks
May the Light have mercy on those who are merciful.
Good bye
Aymon
Quite a bit of sniping by atheists on believers and the reverse. Herewith my two bits on all of this as a scientist and agnostic. First, the existence (or not) of God(s) is a question I find to be of little interest insofar as intellectual pursuit since (Feynman) it is a question that can never be answered. However, the existence (or not) of God(s) as a philosophical/spiritual enquiry is, indeed, of great interest and leads, I assert, to deeper understanding of some of the commonalities crossing all cultures of which Joseph Campbell speaks so eloquently. That, then, is the real value for us all, no matter what our beliefs/prejudices/experiences: all of us deserve to give, and to receive, basic honor and respect to other humans, and living things, on the planet, no matter where they live, how much money they have, how beautiful, how big a backhand they have. When we see ala Campbell that we pretty much all have the same desires, fears, joys, weaknesses, strengths, then we can move forward to a viewpoint that counsels cooperation, rather than competition against (versus competition with) others. Just imagine how this change of viewing frame would alter our views of such matters as the jihadists, and what we might do individually or collectively to effect real changes in the current way world powers are presently doing business.
Very good points, Siouxrose (still thinking about the post before yours referring to Frank Zappa; "Don't you go where the huskies go, and don't you eat that yellow snow..." ha ha, still have that song going through my head).
Your post made me think of Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, where the observer influences the observed.
I don't disagree that there is variation within cosmic/celestial cycles, though it must occur with the framework of consistency and order. Otherwise, we would not have day and night, change of seasons, phasing of the moon, tides, etc. From your posts, I believe that you are sensitive enough to notice this as well: a change in seasons has a profound effect on essence. It's also been said that a full moon intensifies emotional states. By the way, my astrological sign is Cancer, but if I find it difficult to "type" myself according to the enneagram (if you're interested in that as well). Gosh, am I rambling? *smiles*
Anyway, thanks again for your thought-provoking posts.
Aymon: Thank you (sincerely) for taking the time to elaborate in this forum. I have studied many venues of mysticism, and perhaps in the way a mountaineer stops at a particular place in his ascent to absorb the view, I have made peace with the apparent dualism of fate versus free will in this manner. To me, it's a cosmic cha cha cha. Excuse the "humor," but when Christ spoke of the holy spirit, as a tertiary force... that when "2 or more gather and ask anything in my name (i.e. that of love, affinity) it shall be granted," this speaks of a force beyond fate-free will that acts as integrative agent. Astrology has proven a field of meaningful study for me. In it logos, what logic takes as irreconcilable division is often reconciled by a third position. EVERY one of the 12 discipled positions on the great cosmic dial has an opposing force; yet any pair in apparent opposition shares a relationships with third party that can bring a perspective that harmonizes the antipathy. I believe this is why King Arthur uses the circle as a symbol, one that brings diverse voices into potential harmony. How can the sum grow if all its parts are commanded to think, feel and act the same way? Is is mere coincidence that Jesus chose 12 disciples, Abraham founded 12 tribes and this is the ancient Zodiac designation of human basic archetypes? In astrology there are 3 modes: cardinal (will), fixed (fate) and mutable (the "alternating current produced by the interaction of fated versus free willed conditiions). The mutable zone is analogous to permutation in a mathematical equation, mutation as per Darwin's theory of evolution, and "shit happens" as per modern day parlance. I believe human beings are an active part of Creation, each a spark of that mysery called Divinity and that as we grow and evolve, so, too does creation. In this respect, the spark of soul/intellect/mind we are given allows us to depart from Divine law and learn through free will; and I dare to say, sometimes I think our actions surprise the Divinity. Divinity itself grows along with our participation. I argue for the circle because it has no sides. There is NO singular right way. I have at length elaborated in prior postings how dangerous the archeytpe of Mars has become, and how it's now perceived by far too many as an apt definition for the Deity. From the astrologer's perspective, the Age of Aries, when Mars was the chief avatar and Divine principle took place when Rome was in its ascendancy. Power and brute force, the worship of masculine authority were key elements. Jesus entered as Avatar of the Age of Pisces. Note that he was designated the "fisher of men." Pisces is a Yin sign where Venus, principle of love & peace is exalted. It's clear that the WAYS of Rome were preserved but that Jesus' name was added as endorsement. How much evolution into Pisces principles of "turn the other cheek," and "care for the poor" made head way? The astrological metaphor would be extraneous if our nation did not, under "leadership of so martian a failed leader," lean so heavily to the discharge of extremely heinous weapons. To configure such a policy with "god" begs the question, "WHAT God are you referring to?" And this is where astrology's embrace of 12 equally Divine and viable expressions comes in handy. If we learn to honor this model as a basis for acknowledging human diversity, that brute force is not the only power, nor an apt characterization of Creator, it would lift mankind out of the morass of too much limited thought. So for me, the understanding of the meeting of cardinal-fixed forces and the product being mutable, is another way of saying that fate and free will are NOT mutual exclusive, rather, they dance together and the product--in our selves as individuals and collectively as societies is what grows Creation, what continues to evolve (although persons in power today are more identified with a d'evolutionary process. I see it as holding minds hostage to "old gods," and keeping mankind inside an insidious ideological feedback loop that ONLY leads to the same ends/outcomes.
Intuition is quite developed in my personal world, and I have learned when I meet a conundrum to bike into the woods, do YOGA and wait upon the interior guiding "voice," that has proven itself to be beyond my own intellect. Let me close with this final analogy. If we ask someone, "How are you?" They generally will answer fine. This presupposes there is a singular "I" responding to the question. I believe each human being is a living embodiment--a metaphysical equivalent (in organic form) of a cosmic Kodak moment. Thus their inner being, a reflection of cosmos, through the arrangement of planets, speaks in a chorus of voices. Many of us recognize an innate duality, "good girl/body, bad girl/boy" but it's FAR deeper than that. If one could pose the "How are you?" question to the INNER workings of the human being, the digestive system might provide a different response than the reproductive, endocrine, excretory, etc systems. The very notion of I is itself a tricky one. I am keeping your postings and will read them periodically as they are SO deep, and I believe I will learn new things as I read them in time. Ultimate Zen koans, they grow along with the consciousness the reader brings TO the material. Again, many thanks.
I see a lot of people here that are in all likelyhood very much less intelligent than the likes of Einstein, Newton, M L King Jr, Ghandi, etc sitting there talking about how stupid religious people are.
I'm a very logical person, and I'm religious, quite so actually. So were all the people I mentioned. Are we dumb? Is there something we just don't understand that you 'enlightened' ones can fill me in about?
No? Just more of the same old 'religious people are ignorant' crap? Sounds like the same kind of logic that had people calling us anti-war citizens 'antiamerican' and 'unpatriotic'.
Latching onto your religion (and yes, atheism IS a religion) and shoving it down others throats, telling them that they are wrong, you are right, how is this any different than the people you're complaining about?
I'll give you a hint: It's not. It's the same 'I'm better than you' fundimentalist bullshit that Falwell spewed. You sound like Pat Robertson when you show your arrogant, intolerant self-delusional superiority like that.
Sioux Rose:
You are one of the few people on this site that I have seen who spend mental effort at reading and trying to comprehend complex arguments and thought before putting pen to paper. You are preparing your mind to receive Light and you have received Light. I went through a similar same process of thought as you are, going through the Upanishads and Bhagavad Gita and The Dhampada and other Buddhist scriptures where karma and reincarnation is most talked about. I also believed thoroughly in free will, which again the atheistic evolutionary conjectures of Dawkins and Dennet do not grant us.
The karmic scriptures that I mention above superficially articulate these very deep and intricate concepts of karma and reincarnation in a much scripted manner (pun intended) and appear to deny free-will completely. Many of the Western "authorities" and Indian gurus appear to stop at this crucial juncture and claim that the karmic religions are "fatalistic' because they allow no free-will. I could have stopped here and accepted this thesis, but I was led by the light to consider the possibility that the great thinkers such as Buddha would also have encountered this difficulty, and surely if they accept this conclusion, then it is obviously a contradiction in terms. That is you cannot have karma and free will at the same time. By the way, this was also the main split in Islam in the 11 century CE when the fundamentalists (shariah Sunnis) won over the Muta'zilli (the believers in free will and divine justice without compromising either). I will not tell you the positions in Judaism and Christianity as you most likely know about that. Suffice it to say that this conflict is also unresolved there and many departures from both creeds have been prompted by the inability of the priesthoods to answer this fundamental dichotomy. For example, Christianity tries to get out of this dilemma by saying that Christ died for our sins, and then still maintains concepts of sin redemption, making the whole structure of human responsibility for its actions incoherent.
Well, so how do we reconcile these two?
Well it depends on what you are willing to give up and how much contradiction you are willing to live with by "faith" and cling to the social belonging offered by organized religions as a palliative.
I was not willing to give up free-will and my responsibilities to the universe and so the direction of my research forced me to investigate karma and reincarnation more deeply and to live them in suspension until I was intellectually (and hence spiritually content) with the conceptualization provided me by intuition from the grace of the Light and my own intense and extensive studies.
This reconciliation involves so much background knowledge and feelings of awe and wonder arising thereof in all areas - - both the art forms of the universe and the CONCEPTUAL scientific and mathematical structure, which is distinct from the apparent physical structure - - that it will take too much space and articulate it here even in summary. It will also take the joy out of your own search and like a kaleidoscope; you will perceive the design of the resolution in the way you have prepared your mind. Hence my glass analogy which implies two things;
ONE- -The cessation of the cycles of travel of the three main energies that constitute the "I" that is conventionally termed as the "mind", "soul" etc. Of this, only one remains eternal in its original form that at this juncture we do not have the linguistic capabilities to describe, but the mind apprehends in an art form.
TWO – it is this art form that the block of glass reflects in its particular colours of Light.
I will leave it at that.
The following helped me a lot in my journeys when the intricacies were so overwhelming that I felt it was a useless, futile search, for there can be no logical reconciliation and since I wanted to retain free will, I had to give up the notion of karma, which means I had to give up the concept of justice(not in the sense of revenge for the soul energy is indestructible and cannot receive pain and punishment but in the sense of learning and feelings of loss and separation from the Light) which also I was not prepared give up. This is:
AS ABOVE SO BELOW
This is the first fundamental revelation of Ta'at- Hermes, the conveyor of Light wisdom to the mind in Egyptian cosmology.
With this you may want to start your own journey with the one of the main principles of the science-logic picture of the universe as just a vast collection of interacting energies creating their own "arena" (not necessarily ordinary space-time) to manifest. It is necessary to keep scientific reality always in mind on this journey or you will be lost in many of the facile and tempting speculative constructions that ultimately do not answer the question of what is karma and free will. They are merely illusions of enlightenment much like drug induced hallucinations but not the reality that the Light intends you to reach.
May you search be fruitful
Aymon
Unfortunately, never been very good at statistics. The sun rising and setting, asteroids crashing into the earth, etc. doesn't really concern me much because it is completely out of my control. In fact, it's unnerving when you begin to see how little you do control. You start out believing that you're self-directed, only to find that you're really directed by a thousand different thoughts and impulses. Perhaps seeing how mechanical we are is the beginning of freedom.
What percent SURE of something must you be before you say "I'm certain of it"? 51% ? 80% ? 90 %?
In this cosmos, we can never reach 100 % certainty!
Therefore, I use the term PROBABILITY instead of 'believe'. For instance, I assign a 99% probability that the sun will rise tomorrow. But I must leave room for the small chance that it will explode, or that the Earth will be hit by a meteor, etc.
Applying this to religion, I ask: What percent certainty do you have that a creator exists or not? On what evidence do you assign that probability?
There now. Isn't that a better way of communicating your thoughts?
For me if I cannot perceive it, there is no point in believing it. If that means feeling insecure, then so be it. A logical argument can be beautiful and elaborate, but if the premise is wrong, so will be the conclusion. Truth is a different matter. We all know relative, scientific truth, which applies to everyone. Absolute truth, on the other hand, if it exists at all cannot be proven empirically, but that does not mean we are incapable of apprehending it. Illusion is generally more comfortable than truth, and we seek to know ourselves through a filter based on preference, which derives from the past.
"I think that he is assuming his conclusion here. I feel no need to turn to some popular philosophy, unless it is that of being rational and skeptical. These human traits may be repressed in the religious, and they are not necessary for the barest of atheistic requirements - to have no belief in deities - the one thing we hold in common."
The thing is, though, that being rational and skeptical is nonetheless a worldview that you adopt. One point that the self described "mystic agnostic" Robert Anton Wilson makes is that there is no such thing as a human worldview that can be defined as objective reality. In fact, he denied the very existence of any objective reality. If you're an atheist, you still see the world through an atheist filter. That's what people mean when they call secularism or atheism a religion. Creationists jump on this and take it too far when they call evolution a theory. But the, ahem, "truth" is that something can be "proven" only within its own worldview.
Spirituality is another issue –
expressed in a connection to nature.
No hierarchy, no patriarchy, no organization.
Patriarchy--Spiritual language of necessity must be one of metaphor. Spiritual descriptions of long ago had to rely on what was known to attempt to describe an invisible essence. For example, in Christianity, which we must remember is an ancient religion, the trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) may have been a metaphor used for describing a triad of forces or energies. Today we might term these forces active, passive, and reconciling (or neutralizing). In the physical, natural world, science has discovered that this triad plays a part in every energetic relationship. Nature is perpetually seeking to establish equilibrium and balance through them.
Hierarchy and organization--Without cosmic and celestial order our physical existence would be impossible, would it not? We are completely dependent on several levels of order above and "below" us which we take for granted, from galactic to atomic. The tight maintenance of this organization is essential for our survival. There is most definitely a Cosmic Hierarchy.
I may be mistaken, but I think most atheists believe we are an accident, an anomaly of the evolutionary process that brought us here. I suppose that would make the existence of the universe an accidental phenomenon as well, meaning there is no divine direction to it. Seems to me that even if we were created by a "process" that that process cannot help but reflect a higher order of being than ourselves. The important question to me is: in what way am I related to the whole of this process?
Mr. Aronson said:
"Living without God means turning toward something. To flourish we need coherent secular popular philosophies that effectively answer life's vital questions."
I think that he is assuming his conclusion here. I feel no need to turn to some popular philosophy, unless it is that of being rational and skeptical. These human traits may be repressed in the religious, and they are not necessary for the barest of atheistic requirements - to have no belief in deities - the one thing we hold in common.
This has to be one of the most intriguing and enlightening threads ever on this site! Conscience, I agree with you.
Aymon: Thank you for taking the time to extrapolate some powerful points. Do you happen to agree that the "glass" may prepare its capacity to receive and convey light on the basis of former incarnations?
The amount of postings and the passion behind their arguments shows that as a group we recognize it's not all about politics, that life in a body contains a spiritual component that may prove the over-arching aspect of that which motivates our lives on all other levels (social, economic, political, etc.)
"Our nation was a product of the Enlightenment, where precisely the skills of fact-based analysis were exalted at the expense of superstition and ignorance. What we are seeing now is a degradation of that heritage, with the inevitable deterioration of the American polity and society that goes with it. And this profits the thieves who have bought and stolen their way into power."
However, the Enlightenment would not have existed without medieval Christian thinkers like Sts. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. The point is not that this is a "Christian nation," but that you cannot separate Western thought from its roots in the antiquity, which by its nature includes Christianity as an influence. There was a great review in the New York Review of Books of the Dawkins book that pointed out that the values espoused by Dawkins (many of which were also the "truths" held as "self evident" by the founding fathers) were actually values of a society that developed through Christian thought. (by comparison, Dawkin's critic argues, a society based in, say Confucianism would not honour the individual in the same way ours does.) In other words, it's a chicken-or-egg thing.
The fact is that getting rid of religion would do precious little to aid our current situation. The planet would still be getting warmer. There would still be unrest in the Middle East. And, it could be argued, a secular Bush or Cheney would probably not be any more inclined to address the inequalities of our society. They'd probably be more inclined to just take what's theirs.
It's not belief in a particular man in the sky that "saves" us. It's acknowledgement of a world in which your actions matter and yet you are no more important than anyone else. Personally, I sum it up with three words, Humility, Awe and Grattitude. However you express that is up to you. I've heard a great proverb, supposedly Serbian, that sums this up: "Be humble, for you are made of dung. Be noble, for you are made of stars."
As for Christopher Hitchens, anyone who (as Hitchens has written in his Vanity Fair column) claims that smoking cigarettes staves of Alzheimers has no business lecturing others on their ridiculous beliefs.
We have to be mindful that what we are talking about is organized patriarchal religions --
And, that we are concerned because of the harm that those religions have done and continue to do --
Spirituality is another issue --
expressed in a connection to nature.
No hierarchy, no patriarchy, no organization.
We also have to recognize the underpinning that organized patriarchal religions provide the patriarchy to exploit nature, natural resources, animal-life . . . and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority.
"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" continueto do harm to our planet and finally to humanity.
"I didn't say atheism is without filters. I don't think any atheist would say that."
Here's a direct quote from Herk earlier on this very thread:
The most singular fact about atheism, perhaps, is that it has no filters.
Of course not every atheist believesthe same things. Neither does every religious person. That's one of my points. To say that one's own point of view is rational and (most) others are not is presumptuous.
"I said it uses evidence and arguments to arrive at its view of the world, and that - by contrast - religions require faith: belief in something not seen. Evidence of the natural world suggests natural origins of the world rather than supernatural origins."
However, that evidence is based entirely on our own human perceptions, which are not perfect. We do not see every colour in the spectrum or hear every frequency. (It has been argued that this has developed because to do so would be beyond the capacity of our human brains; this corresponds to the mystic's notion that to live in a continuous mystical state would cause madness.) As Robert Anton Wilson said, if your'e going to be agnostic, be agnostic about everything. Otherwise you are simply replacing one model (his word for worldview or philosophy) for another.
And frankly, atheists do operate by faith. Marxism had faith in the "natural" progression from capitalism to communism. Even Dawkins admits that he cannot prove that there is no God, but that he takes it on faith.
Thank you Siouxrose for this wonderful quote:
Einstein said, "No problem can be solved at the level of thinking that brought it about." Logic is not suitable to the higher realms of sentience."
And he was right. Fixing the problems of division brought about by ideation must derive from a higher "level" of being.
Eckhart Tolle said that thought and logic are wonderful tools given to us to use, but that we've ended up allowing them to use us.
Another thing to consider is that while the mind is incessantly chattering there can be no space for silence and, inwardly, that noise has taken us over, taken over the whole of humanity. Holistic perception is an exceedingly rare commodity in our world today. And "insanity" is the norm.
You know what really causes the oppression and deaths? It's not religion and it's not atheism -- it's fanaticism. As soon as someone's belief in an ideology becomes so zealous that all of humanity must believe the same or be in error, then the killing is just around the corner.
I read the atheists here who said "Everyone will soon believe what I do. It's the obvious right answer and it's inevitable" and I shudder. You sound just like the mujahadin: "Everyone will soon believe in Allah. It's the obvious right answer and it's inevitable." Or the Dominionist Christians. "Everyone will soon believe in the Second Coming. It's inevitable."
Humanity is built to be diverse. There is NEVER going to be a time when all humanity sees spirit the same way and anyone who thinks they can force the issue is trouble on wheels. That's why freedom of religion is a very, very important ideal in this nation.
iwarrior and siouxrose - you both make good points. Yes, religion has inspired much good and beauty in the world as well as hatred and war. Perhaps the real human tragedy is that we can swing so easily from one side to the other.
Over time, one thing that art does is reveal our current worships and disasters - put the Sistine chapel ceiling side by side with the Guernica and it's all pretty clear. The ceiling is a powerful statement of awe and worship of the Judeo-Christian god; the Guernica is of course a great humanist statement of outrage which we can all relate to. But neither the chapel ceiling nor the Guernica has succeeded in abolishing man's cruelty to man. And I doubt that either Michaelangelo nor Picasso would say that art excuses the atrocities committed by religion.
BTW - that word "humanist" belongs in this discussion - and many "atheists" prefer it - I do. "Atheist" is negative, it indicates what is not believed in, but "humanist" is positive - indicating what one does believe in - the ability of human beings to build a good life for all. Well - we haven't got there yet, but maybe someday -
"Bush says: 'God speaks to me'"
That's called pandering to your base. Bush is a liar. I don't believe for a minute that he is truly devout.
"Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy"
So said a bedraggled Jew on a hillock in a declarative sentence that encompasses the essence of the path of "Light", the Truth. He knew that truth and understood it intuitively without proof, and was able to articulate it in a profound sentence, which is one of the bases of all humanism. Here was a person from the followers of Light who SHARED with the world an intellectual truth that can only be expressed in human language. There are people on this website who reject reason and knowledge and yet want solutions to major problems to fall from heaven without any thinking effort. The laws of Light will not shower wisdom on those who make no effort to receive it. For how do we explain this person who changed the course of human history by making statements similar to the one above 2000 years ago? Who can explain the meaning of the words "shall receive"? From whom or what? And why is it that only humans, as Chomsky, another person who received this knowledge from the Light on the structure of the human Universe, has shown have the larynx to vocalize language and meaning in a logical structure that is Universal?
I emphasized the word SHARE because the Light has shown humans a very simple and reasoned method of solving the problems created by natural and human entropy ("big word") or, equivalently, the chaos of uncertainty. And this way is as much a natural law of the Universe as gravity is. This is:
THE LAW OF RISK SHARING.
Humans will not survive as species until they accede to this Law. This is not evolutionarily pre-programmed in its entirety and multifarious splendour in our brains as all the books cited in this article would have us believe. All social animal species have had SOME pre-programming in this Law; otherwise they would not have survived at all. But only the human intellect can articulate in universally understandable language long term uncertainty and use the other laws of Nature to both CREATE risk sharing solutions and CHOOSE the best among them by the yardstick of mercy and truth. For example, a huge problem of Nature confronts humans today - - catastrophic climate change. But as of now, the entire Western World, led by the Anglo-American hegemony by a quirk of history and military colonialism has ended up with the largest portion of the worlds capital resources. However, they are not only behaving like Easter Islanders faced with this huge challenge of Nature that has been largely caused by them, but they refuse to even consider seriously optimal risk sharing solutions with the rest of the World, even though the science - - yes SCIENCE - - of long range ( 50 year socio- economic institutions and instruments that will be needed which they have not even begun to investigate even though the Natural laws governing these are at the highest levels of mathematical sophistication, even more profound than the physics of particles and strings).
More tragically, the Anglo-American hegemony and their European lapdogs are employing military methods to resolve this by trying to grab the Coloured World's natural resources to maintain their "Way of life". Military methods are the POLAR OPPOSITE OF RISK SHARING! They increase the entropy in the system that employs them and the system that bears them; increasing risk exponentially beyond its natural rate of increase until both systems collapse.
What can be done?
Obviously, the first step is to acquire as deep a scientific understanding of the forces, both natural and man-made, at work in impending catastrophes of climate change and loss of the two major remaining reserves of fossil energy - - Iraq and Iran - - to fiery destruction. If the latter comes about, then the entropy increase in the western world, particularly America will be so large, that the system will collapse much like the world trade towers. People are waiting for some mind boggling "terrorist attack" that will bring this about. But this is a fairy tale put out by the militarists to continue with military chaos without end. For Anglo-American people to wait like sheep and gab, gab, gab, in small sound bite articles as this site is essentially profound mental laziness at this late stage. It is a white middle class gab –fest of all opinion and no solution, something that has descended on once very creative people like a plague.
"The Light guides whom it will and leaves to stray whom it will. And those who have no Light, they have no light"
(Observe the upper case L and lower case l for the word light in the above)
This sentence is not implying that the forces of Light are merciless. It simply says that a human should prepare his or her mind through deep thought on the structure of the Universe to be able to receive deep insights into the unknown truths that cannot be arrived at by neither deduction nor induction, but only by flashes of intuition that can only make sense to a mind prepared for such intuition. A simple example will explain this. Only by expending tremendous mental effort at understanding gravity by logic and accumulation of knowledge was Einstein's mind primed for both receiving and understanding when received, the concept of gravity as a phenomenon of a curved space-time continuum that is distorted near massive bodies. While that solved one aspect of the structure of the Universe, it opened up another that Einstein beautifully describes in his book with Infeld in 1932 on the development of physics over the previous fifty years. He says that suddenly the problem of "MASS" came to the fore as something that scientists had been using for 300 years in their formulas without understanding what mass is since the time of Newton. Thus we have today the major unresolved problem:
WHAT IS MASS?
The point being made here is that the Universe is a magnificent structure that includes us and our consciousness. There has been a vast sale of snake-oil to gullible white middle-class people by people masquerading as "gurus' from the East, which has now been polished to an art form by Western "New Agers" that there are great levels of understanding and as one of the commentators above says these are "spiritual truths" that lie beyond human comprehension but are revealed only to sadhus, holy men, UFO abductees and what not in secret locations where these "enlightened" souls go into meditation where these great truths of Nature, greater than the Laws of the "physical universe" such as Quantum Mechanics, are revealed in some Hollywood made multicoloured light show from the "Supreme Being". This is "esoteric knowledge' reserved for the "elites" and the "exoteric knowledge" such as quantum mechanics is part of the 'physical universe" and hence profane and not "spiritual" meant for the "masses". That so many westerners have bought into this mumbo jumbo shows only mental laziness and a childish yearning for "Santa Claus" to deliver great truths in majestic descents from heaven in white robes and white beard of some anthropomorphos flashing thunder and lightning and lightening his presence known by a coterie of angels with luminous bodies. This is an opiate for the mentally lazy. - - the great Light of truths, knowledge, and compassion does not work that way, and has never, ever worked that way.
Those who receive Light are those who prepare their mind to the highest levels of logic and knowledge and it is during this period of preparation the "eureka" moments of unexplainable intuition arrive.
The analogy to a piece of glass and light will be illuminating. Take a block of transparent glass. Shine light on it. If the glass is prepared in such a way that it reflects all the light that shines on it, then there is utter darkness inside. If the glass is prepared to transmit light though but not to absorb it, it will shine only while the light is passing through and then revert to darkness. But if it is prepared to absorb light, then it will itself become a source of light since it will shine forth like a glittering star. The human mind is the glass and the Light of insight, intuition, illumination and wisdom guides to its Light whom it finds prepared to shine and leaves those to stray in darkness who make no effort to prepare themselves with real knowledge and logic and not facile opinions and phantasmagorical stories from legends about magic, and witchcraft, and miracles.
Going back to RISK SHARING, it is a profound law of the universe that has been given to humankind by the Light. So use it. Muhammad, the founder of Islam, being a trader, received some of these profundities that were not found in earlier revelations and insights, and thus created some of the most enduring institutions for risk sharing that form an integral part of the Islam.
The two most knowledgeable intellectuals who have received deep insights into risk sharing from the Light because they prepared themselves with vast knowledge but remained compassionate and humane are people whom the group at Common Dreams have not heard of or even properly understand except for writers like Paul Krugman are:
*Kenneth Arrow, Nobel Laureate in Economics, Professor, Santa-Fe Institute in New Mexico*
*Amartya Sen, Nobel Laureate in Economics, Master of Magdallen College, Professor, Oxford University*
Response to some of the Comments
Now I will respond to some of the comments that appeared after mine. Please do not consider this as criticism for the sake of criticism, or "belittling" other people's beliefs or any such thing. Consider it as part of a Socratic dialectic that is necessary if this website is ever going to evolve into a forum where serious thinkers posit analysis and solutions to various issues fully expecting critical scrutiny under the laws of true/false logic, the only logic that the human linguistic/mental apparatus is capable of pursuing naturally. The current approach, which seems to me like a butterfly flitting from flower to flower without waiting for any deep benefits from a single flower is not likely to produce any enlightenment, nor solutions, and will push out serious strategists such as Cindy Sheehan. A lot of people think that Gandhi was some sort of saint who created miracles of non-violent achievement. Non-violence was his philosophy but not his strategy. Being a first class legal mind, he was a great strategist who chose some of the most effective venues and contexts to demonstrate non-violence with maximum damage to the British image of a benign imperial power helping the heathen to achieve Western "values" and "civilization". So was MLK, who besides being Gandhian, also adopted some of his strategies and created unique ones of his own. There has not been an African American of that acumen since. That is why both were gunned down - - their minds, guided by the Light, were too powerful weapons for the forces of darkness to allow functioning for another 10 years or so. You think that they did not use logic to weed out ineffective strategies from the more effective ones before they embarked upon them?
1. Paul Bramscher , Opinionated, Chess Games
"Arguably, philosophical problems are particularized versions of more general logic problems (self-created — they don't have any corporal existence). Basically they are the platonic/karnaugh realm of relationships of ideas to one another, how they flow and what follows what."
What is more "general logic"? Logics are simply formalized languages with certain rules of producing well-formed formulas that can then be subject to the scrutiny of the rules to see if any statement is wff. What are the rules of this "general logic" because I truly have never heard the term before over the last couple of decades that I have spent in the study of propositional, predicate, and modal logic, on the one hand, and analytical philosophy on the other. To me words don't mean anything until they are fleshed out.
"But there does exist a powerful (Popper) asymmetry. If I claimed that the cup of coffee next to me was a spherical cube, made out of Helium Carbonate, simultaneously empty and full, having a conversation with me, you could probably lean on first order to logic to disprove my claim because it either is self-contradictory, violates a law of physics/chemistry, etc.
So these logic games are fun, but for the most part useless in ontological claims positive. We can spin any yarn of logic we want. However long, it will not cause things to pop into — or out of — existence."
This whole thought is somewhat incoherent as it borrows vocabulary from a hodgepodge of sources without any systematic logical connection between the sentences in which they occur. The concept of "logic games (actually LANGUAGE games)" was introduced by the latter (post "Tractatus") Wittgenstein in his "Investigations" which he himself claimed to be incoherent to himself. It was during a period after WWI when he came back profoundly affected by what he saw in the trenches, and became a recluse. In fact he came out and criticised Gödel's work without having read or understood it. Karl Popper was first rate fascist who didn't even understand elementary probability theory, and his philosophy of science was dismantled by Kuhn's masterpiece - -"Structure of Scientific Revolutions". Thus I have no clue as to what on earth you are talking about on "Popper" asymmetry but if the sophistry of the glass talking to you being a valid opinion to hold as an argument against the use of first order logic in analysing opinion, but being only a "fun game" and "logic yarn" that is a "spin" which will not make things pop into existence . . ., well let me play the devil's advocate with this way of argument.
Bush says: "God speaks to me"
Then if you question for a logical or factual definition of "God" in this tautology, and he says according to OPINIONATED: "In America, neither opinion should be politically relevant. What should be important is whether we agree every person should be free to pursue their philosophy as they see fit, if it does harm to none" I am not doing any harm to anyone who is not a "terrorist".
If you continue (using true/false logic) and say but "You are doing harm" because the medical people say so many innocent Iraqis and American soldiers have been killed, and he will say that in a just war (his God has told him it is a just war) "collateral damage" and other shit will happen (paraphrasing Rumsfeld).
You say that is totally illogical (irrational? unreasonable?) and his 60 million white evangelical supporters cry out: "Look you liberal bozo, we believe that our Commander-in-Chief talks to God and receives his instructions from Him, and in America everybody is allowed "their 'OWN' logic and beliefs". Who are you to play theses "logic games" with us? God will not pop out of existence by your liberal logic. These are all liberal "yarns' you are spinning as you liberals always do but 60 million people can't be wrong!"
While you guys are working through that conundrum, I will move to the other comments.
2. ISTGRIP
"1.The Eye of Body= sensory perception, feeling, emotion
2.The Eye of Mind= logical, rational dualistic thinking
3.The Eye of Spirit= non-dual unity consciousness, the absence of a self that exists apart from other.
These Eyes are opened sequentially in the human phenomenon.
Each level transcends and includes its junior dimension.
The subject becomes the object of the subject at the higher level of consciousness"
"God is ungraspable, unknowable"
ISTIGRIP: This is all typical, recycled, new age, McDonald's "spirituality" propagated by a number of self appointed gurus from the East peddling a product that a fed-up Judeo-Christi –anthropomorphised white upper middle and rich class kids looking for "alternate realities" over LSD was willing to pay for.
Those of the Order of Light, like the Zen Buddhists who pose khans to clear clutter from your mind, do not reject the present reality as an illusion that will vanish when the "Third eye" - - the Eye of the Spirit opens up. The present reality of the Universe is the only reality, and we have not even scratched the surface of its deep structure such as mass, life, and so on.
To state that "God is ungraspable, unknowable," is itself a statement of knowledge that you have grasped. Otherwise the sentence is a bunch of typographical marks on paper or sounds that you cannot connect to any form of understanding including your own.
When the Buddha or one of his disciples was pushed to the wall by a king learned in logical discourse who proved to him that Nirvana is essentially "nothing" the way he was articulating it, could only reply;
"Sire, Nirvana is"
Having thus received assurance that the Bodhisattva was making a declarative claim of existence of "Enlightenment" or as I term it the "Light", he accepted Buddhism as his Dharma (faith).
Final Thoughts;
I am not here to score debating points but to encourage logical thought and search for knowledge, whether by the "scientific method", or by deduction, but never by sitting and speculating science and spiritual fiction. The latter may be entertaining, a palliative for any personal problem, but will never be a substitute for the hard metal effort that is required by the Anglo-American hegemony to create entropy reducing, risk sharing solutions based on the four pillars of the Light:
Compassion, Justice, Truth, and Knowledge.
The amount of entropy inside the Anglo-American hegemony is already very large and it has not been risk shared away for quite some time. You have, from my intuition from the Light, about 10 more years to reduce it by very large risk sharing exercises internally and with the rest of the World. At the end of this period the entropy and chaos will drown you.
I have done my duty to teach. Best wishes to all.
AYMON
Wow! The advantage of getting on late is that so many have made the points I might have made. But I first wish to THANK Chessgame for the most impressive points. If the champions of logic really read your points, they might learn something. Einstein said, "No problem can be solved at the level of thinking that brought it about." Logic is not suitable to the higher realms of sentience.
Bren brought up the quaint "why can't we all get along," and that argument was wisely handled by Grandma. It's so very clear today when Bush's base, the fundamentalist Christians are the ones who have championed this war, which is going to cost us on so many levels. When religion champions war and aggression it's time to question the viability of the claim to faith (and faith exactly in what?) on the part of its zealous followers.
Ezeflyer: Your point about who survives when wealth forms the basis for selection is a good one, and makes me think of Hemophilia in England. All those generations of cross breeding among a few royal families and ladies and gentlemen, the blood simply doesn't clot no more!
Sily Mariner: When people grow sufficient enlightenment they won't need religion: let us hope so; but let us also hope our souls grow to where we recognize the incomprehensible poetry and ART behind so much of this infinitely rich creation that's been bequeathed to us for our life experiences.
And one more time (a round of applause, at least on MY end) for Chessgame. Your points are so eloquent and do a good job explaining where thought-based logic leaves one stuck in their own ideological feedback loop. As I've shared on a different post, there's a reason why we have a left brain (logic) and a right brain (creativity & intuition). TRUE wisdom is a blend of both.
"TonyDanza June 9th, 2007 1:06 am
"A lot of typical Atheist bashing….You don't even fake tolerance towards us like you do with other races/religions/cultures….I guess we are the last group that it is socially acceptable to hate."
Seems we bring it on ourselves by our "Cynicism," "Bitterness," and deliberate "Nonconformity" - since the only reason for being atheist is a "compulsive need to flip the world a middle finger." [iwarrior June 8th, 2007 11:05 pm]"
Guys, I don't really hate atheists. Nor vegetarians for that matter. I just think a lot of people in those camps act like they are right and everyone else is a moron/cannibal for not thinking/living like they do.
Yeah, I do think a lot of atheists are bitter cynics who want to moon the world. I've conversed with them. It's not like I've never talked to them.
But I don't hate them. They have a right to their opinions. If people don't want to eat meat, hey, cool. I just don't think it's fair of them to jump on me because I like chipped ham and meatloaf.
I get mad at the born-again Christians and JW's too. They'll tell you you're gonna burn because you aren't "saved". Yet every one of the ones I've ever met had some sort of checkered past. I even get mad at the radical Muslims. All they do is help spread Islamophobia. I get mad at anyone who wants people of different faiths to suffer and die.
Penn Gillette has described himself as a "rabid and biting atheist" and has admitted that he delights in the trashing of Christianity. Does that make him better than Jerry Falwell? Look at what happens when people urinate on Islam. You'd be outraged too.
Again, I understand that atheists get darts thrown at them too. The only reason I get mad at them is because I always feel as if they're throwing darts at me. That's why I said that I haven't seen of any positive social change that came out of atheism. Hitch has to go an write a book on how "religion poisons everything".
And then there's this thing with displays of religious symbols. I don't hiss and shield my eyes like a vampire when I see a Ying/Yang symbol or a Star of David. So why do many atheists act that way? Sometimes it seems like they don't want to be reminded of the fact that they're in the minority.
I don't really care if someone doesn't believe in God. So why should they care if I do? You can't prove it either way anyhow. None of us know jack. It's like everyone is banking on something.
I have no problem with people questioning all that is, was, and shall be. It's a good thing. It doesn't have to turn into a culture war though.
Of course, I'm not perfectly tolerant when it comes to religion. I've caught flak for saying outright that I don't like Satanists. Their worldview seems to resemble that of a komodo dragon. I've also found myself in the stovepot for finding Pagans and Wicca to be a little silly, although I've been coming around in regard to those folks. But on the other hand, I have this tremendous push/pull with the occult and paranormal. At times I refuse to believe in magick, but there are also times when I do believe and am utterly terrifed of it all. In fact, one of my greatest private fears is of the occult, as irrational as that may seem. I like and dislike The Amazing Randi equally. :)
And strangely enough, I went through an anti-religion phase myself after being raised Catholic and growing up with Jehovah's Witnesses. I still don't see why some people feel that you need to go to church or temple in order to be a good person, especially when I've known so many bad people who do and good people who don't. I still get angry at some "church lady" at my Sunday school who criticized me for (and this was before Dana Carvey) "going to church when it's convenient". Hey I was being honest when asked. I couldn't always make it.
Here comes the cliche...
...some of my favorite people, especially writers are atheists. I'm even a fan of King Diamond and Mercyful Fate. Imagine that.
Maybe I've just been talking to the wrong atheists. In fact, many of the ones I've spoken to were right-wing believe it or not, and those people don't seem to give a flip about anyone.
Yes, religion can be dangerous. But so can fire. It has been used to divide people and has caused enormous and deadly conflict. But so has politics. So has science. A priest didn't invent the atom bomb. A rabbi didn't invent the machine gun.
Religion has however been a catalyst for social and political good. The civil right movement was largely born of religion. And while religion has been used to manipulate people, it has also turned people's lives around.
I'm just ranting.
If I offended anyone I apologize.
Paul Bramscher - I like this -
"Personally, I've concluded that there is no need for belief. There is "to know", "not know" and "non-computable." Sorting criteria is based on objective and verifiable evidence. Anything else lacks a yardstick or metric to separate it from hallucination, fantasy, drug-induced vision, psychosis, etc."
But I would add the word "yet" to all three of your categories. Who knows what we will discover during the next many years. Whatever it may be, new discoveries always change what we know. So knowledge is always potentially temporary. (I'm sure you agree with that.)
This discussion is fascinating and touches all bases - except, I think, for one. It's all very philosophical, but ignores a certain element of reality. That is, that religion is dangerous. I'm not a Marxist, but he was right about one thing at least - religion is the opiate of the masses. It's easily manipulated by leaders to march believers into war with and/or persecution of the "Other," first mentioned on this thread by bren.
No other human force on the planet has killed so many people as leaders leading religious crusades of various kinds, and they've killed them because of religion. The "Other" is not "our" religion, so s/he is evil and a devil and must be killed, preferably cruelly. Hatred and fear of the "Other" goes back to the cave days. The only religion exempt from this accusation is Buddhism, of course, and that may (I hope) explain its growing popularity. But of course there is the question of whether Buddhism is really a religion at all. Depends on how you define "religion," and I won't try to do that here.
But the history of religion should make us very suspicious when we hear someone claiming to know the "truth" about what some god wants us to do. This has always been true, even of those "nature" religions that some people on this thread seem to admire so. Don't forget that they had pretty non-stop human sacrifice and other grisly rituals too awful to discuss in a civilized place like this.
The mere fact that religion is so dangerous should turn thinking people against it. It's too easily used by ambitious leaders to get power and to keep it. That takes a credulous population, but so far there seems no shortage of that. So until it's proven otherwise (not very likely), I'll remain an atheist.
Wow a really awesome discussion I'm impressed. Thinking people, big words, reminds me of my kids growing up hey look at me daddy look at me. Egocentric I think they call it. Try to think of it as intergalactic capitalism. Buy the human race for what it's worth, and then sell it for what it thinks it's worth. Now that's a metaphysical profit. Peace.
I'm a scientist, a Deist, study nature and would like to correct one misconception here: What is known as "Social Darwinism" is not Darwinian. Money takes humans out of the equation as no animal is able to hoard more resources than it can personally defend. The ability to hoard wealth and power that more money enhances circumvents natural selection.
MLK Jr. said that instead of the survival of the fittest it's become the survival of the slickest. But that's not entirely accurate. It's becomes the survival and creation of a super-rich elite who instead of competing, inherit their wealth/power or pay some to loot others, destroying our habitat in the process. This results in the survival of weak, inbred, drones, poor genetic examples of humanity; the reverse of the purpose of natural selection.
I've stopped worrying so much about religion. It's going to take several generations for it to die a natural death. The internet is still relatively new, so it'll take time for people to broaden their horizons and open their minds a bit, both of which are antedotes to religion. Programs like Character Counts will take time to provide values to several generations of kids without the billyclub of a "sacred" book. And so on.
What we DON'T want to do is use force or belittlement, which really just causes folks to revert back into their shell. It's really just a big transition. You see it everywhere, the gay bishop (imagine that), liberal theology, women priests, and so on. Used to be unthinkable. It's just part of the transition.
Peace, Love, and Understanding baby!
Too many of us are talking past each other in this discussion. The greatest problem of humanity is not its religions (whether they be spiritually, intellectually, or rationally based).
The greatest problems of humanity are: a lack of real faith in what is believed and intolerance of anyone else who does not similarly believe.
Organized religion seeks to substitute coercion for conversion and confines all of its adherants to the cage of "faith" prescribed by some self-appointed heirarchy.
We are all responsible as individuals for how we live our own lives and will ultimately only have to account for our own personal lives and not those of others.
When we live by that in which we have faith the lives and faiths of others are no threat to us. When we declare that we will only be intolerant of those who are intolerant, we safeguard ourselves against the tyranny of fundamentalism of all types from Atheism to Zorasterianism.
"Live and let live" is surely the best place to start?
Freedom to think, (and believe) for oneself should be paramount, i.e.: not to be berated or ridiculed for being either a believer, -nor a disbeliever!
As re religions and intelligence, there have always existed two flavours in each religion, the Exoteric (for 'the masses') and the Esoteric (for the 'brighter' ones).
And as re Christianity, (as I wrote elsewhere on this site) there ought be recognition of the difference between Churchianity and Christianity, ie: the theologians and churches have in some ways appeared to hijack Christ's original teachings, -certainly the likes of (eg) Jerry Falwel and rabid Pat Robertson and their un-loving sort, have little or nothing to do with the teachings of their eponymous founder, they are now more chri-stains, than Christians methinks! ;)
Though not a Christian, I like to learn, but I don't take on anything which offends my own logic or 'intuition'. I forcefully rejected churchianity when young, and started out on life's journey with a 'carte blanche', -choosing exactly what I wanted to believe in, -or not believe in.
I feel I now have the advantages of both worlds; I believe in certain metaphysical things (-or no-things!) because I have, -quite literally- both seen and experienced powerful metaphysical phenomena, in a number of different ways over the course of many years.
This empirical approach seems to serve me well, - I don't feel the need to call myself either atheist or believer; I just am, -free of labels, and I am also free of any compulsion to go around challenging 'believers' or chastising the 'non-believers'.
I like stuff that certain teachers have said; I can as happily quote from Christ as I can from Science, Buddha, Lao-tse, Marx, Ghandi, Dalai Lama, Einstein, or a friend's 2year-old daughter!
As regards Christ, (who I don't confuse with the rather messy thing now called Christianity!) I liked it when he said, 'By their fruits ye shall know them'.
I try to adopt his wisdom there, and so if I need to assess (not judge!) another person, I will look at what they actually *do*, or achieve in the world, more than their 'label'.
In this way, if I meet someone who is carrying out compassionate and brilliant service to their fellow beings, they will have my respect and support, whether they are labelled 'Atheist', 'Purple Turtle worshiper', Jain, Zoroastrian, Sufi, Christian, Muslim, Scientist, Anarcho-syndicalist Libertarian-Cookie-Muncher ... ~ or whatever!
And I kinda like it if they accord me the same freedom to think and believe as I wish, and for them to assess me on my *actions and motives* in this world, -not my purported faith, non-faith, or philosophical stance.
There are narrow minds in all religions, - and in those who are of none.
There are broad minds in all religions, - and in those who are of none.
And perhaps more crucially, --no matter what someone's outer label is, there are beautiful, loving, compassionate hearts which come in all guises, -- just as there are those who have only ossified, unloving interiors, who likewise come in all guises.
Maybe if we folks took a more open-minded, open-hearted approach, there would be more understanding, more tolerance, compassion, and harmony between the human occupants of this very tiny planet, ~ and thus less ruinous warfare?
I wish it so, (and I work towards that end!) :)
A fine, thoughtful piece; however I have a nagging apprehension regarding atheism in its evolving form. The opening of minds which sometimes springs from open dialogue is almost certain to be blocked by an atheism which subscribes to vitriol equal and opposite to that of the Christian right. When either side attacks, the belligerence evident in the aggression does nothing to create objectivity, which is the ultimate earmark of good science.
Yes, the cultic fundamentalism of the moral majority or the religious right in America is mindlessly dogmatic. Its doctrine joyfully blinds itself from the light of truth. Its imposition of its narrow agenda is frightening.
However, a raging against the night of this revolting miscarriage of honesty is hardly the effective response. Carefully manipulated minds are not easily deterred from delusion, so all of us who find the fundamentalist mentality somewhere on the continuum between silly and insidious must seek alternatives other than rant or reaction, because that is too close to ' equal and opposite.'
Whether atheist, agnostic or liberal Christian, we can do better than has been done to us by Christian evangelicalism in its present form. The questions we might wrestle with would have to be more rational and less angry than the disgust we feel. Otherwise we add fuel to the fire that is scorching America from within and rendering it laughable elsewhere.
My birds eye view here:
it isn't that folks are fed up with spituality so much as they are fed up with organized religion--at least the ones they are most familiar with.
The religious diversity of the US seems to be increasing. I live in a rural area in Washington-and you have a lot of folks that belong to no church, for some, they think the organized churches are morally bankrupt-but are really highly christian in their world view. Others are either highly secular or pagan.
Another thing here:
in the early 20th century, religiousity was in no way associated with economic royalism like it has been in recent years. The alliance between the corporate right and the religious right is really pretty fragile-and I fully expect it to break the next major economic bubble we have.
The new atheists are a bit like the old ones. Religion is just a set of beliefs at its most basic definition so every atheist has religion. The only thing atheists have in common is the belief that there is no God, other than that there beliefs range far and wide. The book writers to justify their religion invariably knock the God based religions and show they are as intolerant as the late grate TV tub thumper Jerry Falwell none of whom I "would go to sea with", nor would I want them governing me as they all would like to rule.
They have nothing new and uplifting to say about our relationships with self and each other, though they are getting rich preaching to the converted which says a lot.
"What should be important is whether we agree every person should be free to pursue their philosophy as they see fit, if it does harm to none."
I couldn't agree more. Behind every agenda, political, religious, sexual, or otherwise is aggression--the need to impose one's will or belief upon another. If it becomes one's goal to battle nuts in a nut factory, he or she becomes one of those nuts. If authentic spirituality exists at all, it's not something that can be imposed from without, but rather like the fragrance of a flower that one can choose to enjoy or pass on by.
I notice that, as always, this conversation is about whether atheism is right or belief in spirituality is right. In America, neither opinion should be politically relevant. What should be important is whether we agree every person should be free to pursue their philosophy as they see fit, if it does harm to none.
The works of Guy Finley, Eckhart Tolle, and Vernon Howard are also very good.
1.The Eye of Body= sensory perception, feeling, emotion
2.The Eye of Mind= logical, rational dualistic thinking
3.The Eye of Spirit= non-dual unity consciousness, the absence of a self that exists apart from other.
These Eyes are opened sequentially in the human phenomenon.
Each level transcends and includes its junior dimension.
The subject becomes the object of the subject at the higher level of consciousness.
For example, as an infant, your consciousness is completely identified with the body. However, as consciousness expands through childhood, the body becomes the new object of the mind, itself the new subject. Meaning, the body is seen as "mine" or as a possession, while the mind is "me". Ask yourself, "Do I have a body, or am I a body?"
The same thing happens with the evolution of consciousness to the Eye of Spirit. Thought, sensation and perception become observed objects. They cease to be solely identified as "me" and are objects in consciousness, they are now "mine". Who is this new "me" that knows thoughts and sensations as objects in awareness? You are that awareness. You always were and always will be. This is mysticism. This is what lies behind and beyond all seeing and knowing. "God" is what see's observed events in a radically evolved sense of knowing which is now expanded beyond that of the limited and finite self and itself can not be seen. The Eye of Mind cannot "prove" God's existence because God is ungraspable, unknowable. What is "known" requires a Knower and something to be known. A subject and an object. God consciousness erases this gap between subject and object. This is the Holy Spirit. This is Buddha Nature.
Until an athiest takes up the very scientific endeavor of running an experiment with the mind (mystical meditation, zen, christ consciousness, sufi dancing, yoga, etc...) that atheist is mired in the same pit of dogmatism that he/she claims to deride.
The so-called smart atheist who dismisses God out of hand is usually rejecting their magic/mythic fundamentalist upbringing that was long on belief and short on evidence. That's quite understandable. Jesus did not walk on water, that's silly. The baby Buddha did not take four steps in the four directions when he was born. Again, nonsense. However, to dismiss the claims of consciousness made by mystics for thousands of years as some way of making an uncertain doomed existence more palatable is inherently dogmatic in that the very experiment of the mystic is not being attempted before it is cast aside.
I often think of Galileo's experience at the hands of the church when I hear modern Scientists denying God's existence, usually the Mythic Paternal God, mind you. Galileo, of course, was a key figure in the impending Enlightenment, that beautiful modernistic rational worldview that progressed humanity in so many ways. The church as the old guard would prevent Galileo from making such blasphemous claims as the Earth revolves around the Sun and not vice versa, as that threatened their worldview and the basis of their power. When Scientist's refuse to shut up and sit on a meditation cushion and study the mind, while expousing their unassailable belief system, they become what they dispise. True believers. Speed bumps in the way of consciousness evolution. Of course, there is a place for rationality and reason, logic and science. But, alas, it is only one part of the story, one face of reality. I'll shut up now. Check out Ken Wilber's work for more in this line.
Human beings will never create a peaceful society, unless they learn to live holistically. Any attempt to do so will prove futile, as it has up to this point. If you live from only a fragment of your whole, how can you expect to create a world without division? Impossible. Seems to me to be the elephant in the room that no one wants to see, and for good reason; it would mean the end of exploitation of the "have-nots" by the "haves." Without inner transformation outward harmony is impossible because collectively we will always reflect what we are individually. As for the poster above, what does it matter what others think of you as long as you are secure within yourself? Most of what people call "tolerance" is disguised hatred anyway, which sooner or later erupts into violence and war.
TonyDanza June 9th, 2007 1:06 am
"A lot of typical Atheist bashing....You don't even fake tolerance towards us like you do with other races/religions/cultures....I guess we are the last group that it is socially acceptable to hate."
Seems we bring it on ourselves by our "Cynicism," "Bitterness," and deliberate "Nonconformity" - since the only reason for being atheist is a "compulsive need to flip the world a middle finger." [iwarrior June 8th, 2007 11:05 pm]
In the long run perhaps the way to overcome the extremes of religion is to actually create a society which is'nt based in violence and exploitation as ours is.Given a sensible caring society few people would likely opt for zealous belief in other worldly salvational fairy tales.
The problem with logic is that it is just a fragment of the whole of being (see the very good discussions between Krishnamurti and David Bohm). Agreed, logic games are fun (and even useful within limits), but can never go beyond a certain boundary; namely, the boundary of thought. The religious question is a unique one because, though it may be one of "objective consciousness," it must be validated individually, so it becomes a paradox of sorts. If I climb a mountain before you and describe the beautiful scenery, you might ask me to "prove it," but I tell you that you must climb and see for yourself. However, you decline to do so and proclaim that neither the mountain nor scenery exist and that I am mad or deluded. See the dilemma?
Arguably, philosophical problems are particularized versions of more general logic problems (self-created -- they don't have any corporal existence). Basically they are the platonic/karnaugh realm of relationships of ideas to one another, how they flow and what follows what.
Teleological and other logic arguments all fail to prove the existence of god because they fail to prove the existence of anything as such. Is there any mathematical or logical presentation I supply to prove that a cup of coffee is sitting next to me?
But there does exist a powerful (Popper) asymmetry. If I claimed that the cup of coffee next to me was a spherical cube, made out of Helium Carbonate, simultaneously empty and full, having a conversation with me, you could probably lean on first order to logic to disprove my claim because it either is self-contradictory, violates a law of physics/chemistry, etc.
So these logic games are fun, but for the most part useless in ontological claims positive. We can spin any yarn of logic we want. However long, it will not cause things to pop into -- or out of -- existence.
If we are honest all we can say is that we do not know. Scientifically, the "why" of our being becomes an insoluble mystery. But then we make the mistake of saying (if we do) that we've reached the limits of our ability to consciously understand. Buddha and Christ were "pointing" to something beyond ordinary understanding, a kind of perception that resides within the realm of human perception, but requires development. Atheists require proof according to scientific/empirical standards, which this broader perception will never yield to, though psychologically its effects are often clear. The closest physical analogy we have here is wind; we can readily see its effects, but not the wind itself. Religious believers and atheists are very similar in this regard. Both establish in their own way what can be known and what cannot. Might it not be more prudent to say we do not know, without placing limits upon what is capable of being known, or establishing standards for what we will accept as proof (brings to mind how Newtonian physics was usurped by quantum physics). Knowledge, in the form of thought and logic, must always be incomplete, regardless of its breadth or depth. So why not at least leave the door open to the possibility that there exists another kind of "knowing" that transcends it? This knowing, then, (again if it exists at all) must be established through watchful awareness in the present.
it takes as much "faith" to believe in evolution as it does to believe in Jesus..the next columbine or va tech should please the godless...with out a guide to live by..people make up their own rules..get real athiest..do yall believe that we are spinning around at over 1000 mph..and circling the sun at the same time at close to 18,000 mph..i say this to make a point that just because something is hard to believe doesnt make it untrue..and you people who would deny people who had a bad childhood with no security and living in fear most of the time..would you deny them they chance to feel secure..just like you were when you were a child..(you wouldnt call your own childhood when your parents were your god irrational would you)stop being so selfish..Jesus said"woe,unto anyone who harms one of these little ones"..
Abuelito: Well said, and I totally agree! JJpeter: the only problem with utter and entire focus on enlightenmen from the inside (out), is that right now Eden is burning... do we have the luxury of that narcissistic focus on self and peace alone? (I ask myself this same question as it is a crux of much of the New Age movement, which in the time millions went into private spiritual rituals to better themselves, happens to be exactly when the right wing took over, moved into the gap created and formed--like a vicious cancer--public policy that led to corrupt leaders, that's led to EVERY wrong domestic & international decision possible or plausible.
Christopher Hitchens is a neocon. I wouldn't waste a single penny on anything that he writes.
I am an atheist BTW.
Find the original reason for needing SOME sort of faith in a higher intelligence at work all around us. The great spiritual TEACHERS, have all said the same thing; the only way you'll ever find God is be "out of your mind".
Stop judging, start living in joy. The spiritual path is three feet long, from the base of the spine to the crown of our heads.
www.ananda.org
A christian nation? I don't see any traffic jams on sunday morning.
Richard Dawkins' said in a radio interview that a number of Bishops and other clerics throughout Britain did not believe in god.There were also a number of Popes thru the centuries said to be non-believers.With these people at the coal front with opinions like this,what does it say about the rest of us?
I think the problem is it's alost impossible to talk about "religion" without everyone assuming you are talking about that cranky, irascible, unbelievable Bible god. Because this is the one worshipped by the world's 3 "great" religions. And no wonder the way these 3 dominate and terrorize the world. But their deity is just about as plausible as Santa Claus.
Once outside that deadly box there are any number of spiritual possibilities that can be quite liberating and easy to live with. Like what the Native Americans used to believe, or the Aborigines of Australia, the "Bushmen" of southern Africa, the Inuit. If for no other reason than the tangible reality of Mother Earth.
This discussion brings to mind one of Mark Twain's great shots at religion (in the paraphrased words of Puddn'Head Wilson):
"Faith is when you believe what you know ain't so."
Why stop at religon? Why not obliterate all culture. Sterilize us into an homogenous mass.
And then dismiss any values not based on self-interest, because they have no basis in reality. Logically if someone values something for a reason other than self-interest, then they are irrational.
Or maybe there is a deeper psychosis than religon. Perhaps there is a psychosis of blaming all of the world's ills on one group of people. Perhaps this vilifying of religon is part of a need to have a devil.
Peace
Macchendra
Who says the "believers" are telling the truth? The easiest way to ingratiate yourself with others around these parts is to declare your faith, whether you really have any or not. Most church-goers seem to be drumming up business of one sort or another among the faithful. Religion's just part of their pitch.
Real atheists don't believe in God, and they don't believe the believers do either.
Thanks, ezeflyer'; I needed the laugh.
Religious belief and ignorance go hand-in-hand.
Americans are (by design) spectacularly ignorant, as is illustrated by the NCLB regime, where children are told WHAT to think at the expense of HOW to think; rote learning, and the slothful mental habits that go with it, are instilled instead of the skills necessary to actually make sense of the world based upon facts and reason.
This is deliberate, because the ignorant and unskilled at raciocination are much easier to manipulate--just have a Pat Robertson get up there, spout some Jay-zus talk, and tell the fools listening that they'll have 40 virgins in heaven if they'll vote RepubliKKKan--and there goes the treasury.
Our nation was a product of the Enlightenment, where precisely the skills of fact-based analysis were exalted at the expense of superstition and ignorance. What we are seeing now is a degradation of that heritage, with the inevitable deterioration of the American polity and society that goes with it. And this profits the thieves who have bought and stolen their way into power.
God help us. --Wait: She doesn't exist...
Why is eating a shrimp cocktail a sin in some religions?...Will I still burn in hell if I eat "Shrimpmates"? Red Lobster is stealing my soul!!!
Every right thinking individual KNOWS in their heart that the world is merely a dandilion seed caried on the back of a giant tortoise who is swimming through an infinate ocean, and that the giant tortoise requires all of us to refrain from eating M&M's, and we must ritually cleanse our genitalia in Boones Farm apple wine....
Oh, and Paris Hilton is the new Messiah
why not??? makes as much sense as any other religion
ezeflyer: Imagine if your prom date on the other side becomes Jerry Fallwell! (I know you are joking, me, too!)
Since I'm not superstitious and don't believe in an afterlife, I'm thinking of switching to the Republican party. I'll be able to lie, cheat, steal, take drugs, invade other countries, shoot old guys in the face, kill mud people and get rich at other's expense without having to worry about going to hell.
I'll be able to engage in all kinds of illicit sex, my sins will be forgiven, I'll get my own tv program, my own university, poor people will send me money, I'll be able to hang out with the plutocracy and be a part of it.
I'd get the medal of freedom for playing golf, I could become president of the country and Master of the Universe even as a moron, or maybe a Supreme Court Justice or Senator.
Banks and corporations would give me lots of money and a lot of other stuff. I could send other people's kids to loot other countries for me while I strut around like John Wayne. I mean, what's there to think about? I'll drink to that!
secularists will never make any headway in the US saying people are religious b/c they are stupid. 99% of humanity is/has been "religious"(if by religious we mean not a secular materialist). saying this is so b/c people are stupid is the analysis of a 3rd grader who's slightly brighter than his classmates (a la hitchens).
so why are people religious? simply b/c life is disappointing. people do not find this rock to be enough to meet their hopes and needs. not at present anyway. too much suffering. universal suffering.
the alleviation of suffering will lead to the retreat of religion and save us from jesus' silly disciples. rational arguments from atheists alone will not. sympathy for the oppressed is as important (maybe more important) than being able to argue the oppressed out of their delusions.
still, God save us from his children! now the democrats are talking this crap. jeeeeeezus.
Secularism and atheism are not "also religions." But I really do dislike this article - it shows the authors own prejudice, and reveals that he is not actually a humanist at all. I won't be reading his book, and I don't believe in coalitions with hypocrites.