It is, of course, incorrect and inflamatory to suggest that lynchings were ever "commonplace." Yes, they occurred. Yes, they are obscene and disgusting and every other evil word you can think of, and they are a huge black stain on this nation's history, but "common?" By no means am I attempting to minimize the issue of lynchings; rather, I am trying to get political discussion in this country back to where it hasn't been in years - back to a place where rational discussion and FACTS are relevant, not fear-based hatemongering.

"Is anyone old enough to remember the expression "Go back to Africa"?"

Unfortunately I'm in my early twenties and I heard it said a few times back in Pennsylvania by some very ignorant, racist people. But yes, this year the hatred has switched from homosexuals to "illegal immigrants."

http://www.dreamingearth.net

Auberon, Lynchings were commonplace in this country, the last one was in ILL in the summer of 1968. When Emmit Till was murdered they were 10 per week, that is commonplace.

In the absence of anything valabe or real to offer, fascism relies on racism, scapegoating and nationalist xenophobia. We have to reach beyond that and point out that our fellow workers are not the enemy. It is the shenanigans of our own leaders that have lead to the financial disaster south of our border that causes people to migrate north seeking a living. Borders should not define what wages are paid and under what conditions -- especially when we are all working for the same corporations. Mexican workers and US workers share the same enemy!

Leave it to a liberal to split hairs over words like "commonplace", which was used in the context of understanding just how widespread the lynching problem was, or how long it has taken most white Americans to understand the very concept of due process. After all, a lot of lynchings in this country have taken place as a product of the so-called criminal justice system itself, so they aren't even counted.

It's the logic of the person who never had to feel the impact of the car, so is quite certain that the accident must not have happened.

Auberon,

The FACTS are that the hate-mongering is what keeps these issues never ending. (Great article, btw) And remember, the FACTS are/were skewed, so any chance of not attaching the basic notion of capitalism to any of these conversations keeps the ball rolling.

This land is not designated for any specific group(s) of people. It is for all to learn to live/survive together.

Capitalism keeps showing the pattern of disposable people. It's time to modify the system, and this immigration issue is only scratching the surface.

Contrary to what some have claimed, a recent study by the Washington-based Immigration Policy Center found that immigrants are much less likely to be imprisoned than U.S.-born residents of the same ethnicity. GREAT. In other words, immigrants children, of the same ethnicity, are even more criminal than their parents.

I think comparing the enforcement existing immigration laws, to the anti-semetism of the 1930's and the racisim against blacks in the south, is a bit of a stretch.

As an American that has worked in occupations(farm worker, construction worker, software engineer) in which immigrants play a very important role, I tend to think that immigrants are used as a shield by wealthy and corporate interests in the US. Why should any amnesty apply to US citizens that profitted from violating US immigration law?

There is much more operating here than simple xenophobia. For most Americans, their US citizenship is the most valuable asset they can ever hope to have. Allowing citizenship to be doled out as fits corporate interests degrades the value of citizenship and props up a predatory elite. Has the average American's life really improved since the 1965 immigration expansion? What about the distribution of wealth and income?

The Kennedy/McCain/Bush proposal is not a solution to this problem.
We need to look beyond the currently popular proposals to a package of policies that might really improve the lives of people in both Mexico and the US.

When you look at other countries with high levels of immigration, most are quite undemocratic. There are also clear examples of highly egalitarian countries that have prospered without high levels of immigration.

Do immigration and massive US foreign borrowing keep the US from pursuing sane, realistic solutions to its problems? Clearly this unpopular, unnecessary war would be harder for the US government to fight if it had to pay a living wage at home-and couldn't recruit soldiers lured by the attraction of a green-card.

The Mexican people are the most hospitable and industrious people you can find anywhere. My late wife was of Hispanic roots so my children are half Hispanic. I have always been happy to see more Mexican people being accepted into the U.S.A.. and I firmly believe that other nationalities, with their own customs and culture, add a distinct and desirable zest to those of our own. However, the Mexican Government is not doing nearly as much as they should be doing for their people and we should not be expected to take on more than we can handle without sacrificing the good life that our own people have worked so hard to attain. The hordes of people coming across our southern border illegally are beyond our capacity to control. We must insist that these "illegals" go through the same proceedures that all previous residence seekers have done. This has nothing to do with the "go back to Africa" comments made above. Our economy stands to be destroyed if some measures aren't taken now before it's too late. Our health facilities are already beginning to burst at the flimsy seams by this overload. I don't like the present bill that is under consideration right now but we will have to do something very, very soon or face some disasters down the road.

The distribution pattern of wealth has not changed significantly since about 1914 and so immigration is irrelevant. The labor and consumption of an expanded underclass permits the super-rich to expand their wealth proportionally.

Why doesn't it bother the anti-immigrant folks that they are on the same side of the fence as the bigots and fascists? Literally and figuratively.

Why does that not make the anti-immigrant folks stop and think and re-examine the assumptions that lead to an unacceptable conclusion?

How dare the anti-immigrant folks create and propose justifications for acts of bigotry and fascism?

The past is in the past and we can certainly learn from it but...really? ALL estimated 12 million illegal immigrants are employed??? Do you have proof to back that up? And, does the magic 12 million estimate include those that are currently in prison?

Lew2007, you might want to read the Pew Report

Beyond Red and Blue-just to get the lay of the political divide we are facing here. One of the groups that is most likely to support immigration restriction are the poorest Democrats(but they do so purely on economic grounds-stuff like English First isn't really important to them).

There are plenty of class-based bigots that support mass immigration(the kinds of folks that use the terms 'white trash' or 'inbreeders' without thought).

My sources tell me that Teddy Kennedy, a leader of the current legislation actually has some real serious issues with ethno-centric and religious bigotry-and tended to side with the elements of that family that viewed themselves more as Irish in America than as Americans.

I don't know what is in Teddy's heart. I know I have met prominent "liberal" democratic politicians that really weren't that far from the KKK in their private thoughts so I'm inclined to believe my sources here.

the issue is economic, and the one thing that i have in common w/all the immigrants trying to get here? THE WORKING CLASS. if you want to fix immigration, make life livable in mexico (and the US for that matter). it's the simplest, most humane solution, and will not involve any more resources than the hundreds of billions to be spent on fences, surveillance, and rounding up people and monitoring employers. but it would change the distribtion of power in society, and we can't have that, can we? so we'll get the law-n-order chamber of commerce solution, instead.

and anti-immigrant hysteria is part and parcel of incipient fascism.

This is not about xenofobia or fascism. It is a foil, so Roberto Rodriguez can have his sub minimum wage gardner and his wife can have her maid and nanny. Combine that with a bunch of rich pig business owners wanting exploitable labor, and certain foreign governments who find it easier to export problems than to fix them, and everybody is happy. Except the American working man. But, who cares about him anyway...

Powerslave, if you are the designated representative of the US working MAN (sexist as well as racist now), then the US working MAN deserves not to be cared about.

As a Native American, I can say that the issue we are talking about here goes much deeper than xenophobia--since WE were here first--and it sets the stage for genocide, which is what the opponents of immigration are really calling for.

"It doesn't have to be this way; a simple transnational labor agreement could change all this. The drawback is that workers and their families would not lose their human rights, dignity or citizenship in the process — so who would we then blame for the nation's problems?

Mr. Rodgriguez, I'd take your prescriptions a little more seriously if you advocated the same "transnational labor agreement" for Mexico's illegals. Mexico is guilty of hideous violations of the human rights of Central and South American illegal aliens in their country. Why doesn't that matter to you?

American citizens are never in danger of losing their citizenship unless they renounce it or, much more rarely, obtain it fraudulently. In Mexico, political activity by non-citizens is absolutely not tolerated; it leads to instant deportation. Why is it that in Mexico even naturalized citizens have rights inferior to the native born?

I blame people like you for the problems immigrants face. Instead of trying to make Mexico a more livable, decent place, you want to come up here and indict America and Americans on absolutely specious charges. Mexico naturalized fewer than two hundred citizens last year.

Shouldn't we benighted and cruel Americans follow the example of enlightened Mexicans on immigration issues?

Did you read the main article and my response randall? You seem to have made up your mind already and then provide your poses rather than directly responding.

You have no qualms about being on the same side of the fence as bigots because you can point at scientific or economic reasons for your position?

Come on, tell your feelings about proudly standing along side the bigots who simply want to send the brown folks home.

Bigotry and acts of bigotry are simply unacceptable and you should be ashamed for being on that side of the fence.

Sell your foolishness to other fools where you are fooling yourself if you think your support of acts of bigotry does not make you a bigot randall.

You know the immigration issue reminds me a little of physics. What happens when you have a high concentration of an element in solution and add water? It gets diluted, does it not? If immigrants rush into this country unchecked (doesn't matter what race or creed); resources, jobs, and pay get diluted. This is exactly what is happening in the US today. Corporate greed is what's behind this influx; the big stockholders and robber barrons win while the rest of us lose, even those immigrants who migrate here--eventually. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a free lunch, and "cheap labor" will end up costing us all in the long run. Think about it.

Lew,

In regards to your comments to Randall on being on the same side as bigots, are you aware that if you oppose cigarette smoking on health grounds, you're on the same side of the issue as Adolf Hitler? And if bigots believe that two and two equals four, am I a bigot for believing the same thing?

Besides, calling people bigot and other names is the most graceless way of admitting you've lost the argument. Why not put the name-calling aside and sharpen up your arguments? I think I can speak for Mr. Burns when I say that we'd all love to hear a cogent pro-immigration argument.

I have an easy solution: all you whiners can phone your congresspeople and demand that the half of Mexico that the US obtained in the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo be sold back to Mexico--for the same price, of course.

Problem solved--at least for the moment.

I will make this real simple for you, America's business is to take care of every single American regardless of race and color first. No exceptions. No giving to others from other countries while our citizens are homeless and unemployed. You talk about racism it is actually a class war and all of the people who have a problem putting all of their fellow citizens first need to look at where they stand.

If nafta or some other mechanism is wrecking Mexico then the people of that country can act to change that, We have a lot of Americans who need and deserve the attention and the energy focused on the problems created here by lowered wages and a tendency to hire illegals over Americans because they are cheaper do not fall for the old line no Americans want these jobs. It is a lie.

So to put in an easy to understand context while our people are hungry, homeless, and hurting, we cannot give at this time.

By making Latin America better for their people, Chavez, Morales, Kirchner, Lula and other socialist administrations are doing more to curb illegal immigration here than any fence could ever do.

mfskinner,

The US did a great job taking care of us folks from the First Nations. The policy was called genocide.

And it is still called that.

NAFTA and the other Free-to-exploit Trade Agreements have been instrumental in driving people across our borders. Remember that these agreements actually contain clauses that give power to corporations to challenge governments (even our Federal and State governments).

We need to repeal all the "free" trade agreements and enforce our laws, hitting some big employers of illegal aliens with maximum fines and imprisonment. Now that the Bush maladministration has backed the use of corn for ethanol production, the Mexican farmers will benefit from the inevitable increase in price.

That's all we need to feed the hungry: ethanol produced from food crops!

the US Government and its right-wing zealots love to call immigrants invaders but don't have a problem INVADING other nations. The list of US invasions of the last 60 years is staggering, Iraq is just the latest.

Brisbane, please do list the countries that are victims of unprovoked US aggression. I'd love to see it.

This is one of those "times that try mens' souls", but also that try one's faith in democracy. Illegal immigrants are absolutely not the great dangers to our security, nor the craven recipients of unearned benefits. They are basically honest, patient, and incredibly hard working, wonderful future members of the American melting pot. But too many citizens are filled with fears and hates, and are charged up by the likes of Lou Dobbs and many leading Reublican politicians. Thus we have a democratic mob action to punish these immigrants as miscreants. I am deeply saddened by the suffering and unearned punitive actions they experience. I hope Dobbs will be fired from CNN, and the anti-immigrant leaders will lose elections, but fear they will simply carry on, spreading lies and hatred against a harmless people.

When I was seventeen y/o I was convicted of a felony. I paid fines, served probation "did my time" (they did not have community service in those days --1969) my record was expunged.
By the time I was twenty one I was a US Marine Platoon Sergeant. I have had two speeding tickets since then. Rehabilitated you might say.

No one who has been convicted of a crime has more right to DEMAND that anyone else who commits a crime should pay for it. We EARN the right by our own payments.

If you are here in the USA illegally, then you are a criminal since the definition of a "Criminal" is one who breaks the law.

Make it straight, do your time, become "rehabilitated" and go on with your life.

IT REALLY IS THAT SIMPLE, MR. RODRIGUEZ .

Yellow Horse

God, this is so simple, why all the bickering. Advertise all those jobs the Mexicans are taking from Americans (oh wait, are Mexicans not "americans"?) in the local newspapers and help-wanted notice boards and give "Americans" the first pick and the brown americans the second pick. I am sure all those unemployed Americans are going to bust their ass to get in line to pick tomatoes.

moonraven, I can see your point. My great-great-great grandmother walked the Trail of Tears. That was on my fathers side. My mothers people denied their Choctaw heritage in shame. All because of a bunch of immigrants from Europe. Now, the Great Wheel has come around and it's them fearing immigration. As far as I can see, this is Karma. Since 'Greed is the Creed' in America, they will come and come and the Political Whores in Washington are caught between a rock and a hard place. It's kinda nice to see them suffer for a change.

"moonraven June 7th, 2007 5:38 pm

That's all we need to feed the hungry: ethanol produced from food crops!"

At least they can drink it and forget their troubles.

As disingenuous a piece of propaganda as ever published. First, play the race card. Then it's a comparison to Hitler's Germany. Then it's concocted hyperbolics pulled straight out of the arse: "number one threat to security, "the cause of the majority of the nation's problems" and all the rest of this garbage. Then it's insult after insult: how weak we are to be "corralled," how easily Americans are "whipped into a frenzy," followed up by a stunning rhetorical question "who listens to facts any more?"

Senor Rodriguez, you are the biggest frenzy whipper and fact dodger that ever propagated a lie.

Senor Rodriquez, the US IS FOR CITIZENS FIRST. Period. That includes Mexican-Americans, African Americans, Native Americans, Asian Americans, and white Americans. All people who are CITIZENS. And the influx of illegal immigrants is depressing wages and benefits for our citizens. There's no dispute. It's simple economics: supply and demand.

Senor Rodriguez, have you ever stood on a street corner with an unemployed citizen in the construction trade while pickup trucks stop at the corner and wave however many illegals they need that day into the back of the truck bed, only to zoom off to build multi-million dollar mansions on the Jersey shore for ten bucks an hour and a roast beef sandwich? I have.

That's precisely what these people were paid, Senor Rodriguez: ten bucks an hour and a roast beef sandwich, for building multi-million dollar mansions in a state where the cost of living is astronomical. You might be surprised to find out that that sets the market rate for that labor. So unless one is willing to live a dozen or more to a tiny apartment and ride a bicycle to work, it's not a living wage.

Senor Rodriguez, American families don't want to live a dozen or more to a small apartment, and to ask them to do so to prove to you that they're not ignorant, racist, gullible, or whatever other phantasmic apparition your mind can conjure merely exposes how blind your biases have rendered you.

So please don't hand me your suppositions about what motivates those critical of this situation. People aren't as ignorant of these realities as you make them out to be. Fact is, you are the one who cannot deal with this economic reality on a factual, rational basis, which is why you must resort to belittling and hyperbolics.

All that said, I don't blame the people coming here. It's not their fault. It's the cooperation of elites in Mexico and here in the US that create the conditions that forces these people here, under extreme hardship, to try to keep their families from starving. They are indeed hard working, pious, and self-sacificing people. My heart goes out to them. But this demolition of the working poor is precisely what these elites are trying to implement here as well, and we must pull together to stop it, and pronto, or we'll all be in the same sinking boat.

Therefore, Senor Rodriguez, at the risk of you calling me some nefarious bastard, my heart goes out infintely more to the American citizen who can no longer make ends meet because their jobs were either shipped off shore or workers with no status were imported illegally. It is my view that we must take care of our own first, because to do otherwise moves us along the path to driving the economy in this country to third-world levels.

Where in the hell are liberals who used to be adovcates for the working stiff in this country? Cowering in the corner lest they be labeled racist? Well, I've about had it with that noise: you all can call me whatever your little heart desires -- but it's time for some damn truth around here. I'll never be ashamed of speaking out for working citizens, and I surely won't be dissuaded by irrational gibberish like this.

Senor Rodriguez, your cause would be better served critiquing Mexico and the Mexican Elites in the interest of fomenting positive change there than laying the burden on the poor working citizen trying to make ends meet here in the US.

Being intentionally obtuse does not aide the discussion.

Advocating that a group of people can and should be removed from a situation to improve a situation is barbaric and bigotry and unacceptable.

History and experience reveal that immigrants make America strong and better, both economically and culturally.

I guess we should tear down the Statue of Liberty if it is a lie and misleading.

"Don't send your huddled masses yearning to breath free here anymore. We will detain and eventually deport any wretched refuse that teems to our shore from now on."

paraphrased from Randall and Dunnyveg

America is a nation of immigrants, except for the native Americans. That is one basis of my pro-immigrant stance.
Is that cogent enough for you smart guy?

ezeflyer wrote
'Would there be an immigration controversy if immigrants were blue-eyed blondes?'
That assumes that blue-eyed blondes are somehow enormously influential somehow-which I think is questionable. Hollywood has some strange obsession with blonde women-I suspect they'd love more immigration if it were blonde, young and female.

Anyhow, if you look historically, the first major opposition to immigration was at a time with the major sources of immigration were Ireland and Catholic parts of the German speaking world-areas that have quite a few blondes per capita(maybe even more than many parts of Britain).

The source of the conflict was largely religious in nature.

Actually, many of the populations now in the US never "immigrated" to the US but were acquired by the US via the Louisiana Purchase, Alaskan purchase or the Mexican American war(i.e. via a territorial purchase or conquest). Many of original settlers in British Colonies came as slaves(the African Americans), convicts(Georgia) or bonded servants with only slightly higher effective status than slaves.

Lew, wrote:
"You have no qualms about being on the same side of the fence as bigots because you can point at scientific or economic reasons for your position?"

Since you didn't read the link I posted to Beyond Red and Blue, I'll spell it out for you. Both parties are divided along class lines on the topic of immigration.

Racial bigots are generally poor and support low immigration. Class bigots are generally rich and support high immigration. Either side you take in the present situation means you are supporting some form of bigotry. Contrary to what fraud artists like Morris Dees get paid to say, I think class bigotry is a much bigger immediate threat to the average american than racial bigotry. We have a situation where over 40% of all americans have essentially zero assets other than their citizenship rights-and the assets of the top 1% have grown rapidly under Bush(I've heard of reports saying this will top 50% by the end of Bush's term). I see that as dangerous. I also see the situation in US prisons as extremely volatile(an an issue Dees would address if he was seriously wanting to stem the growth of hate groups).

Dearest Lew,

No one is advocating deportation. Existing laws requiring prison for employers hiring illegal aliens need to be enforced. That's all.

Of course immigrants make the US stronger and better -- just not in these numbers over this period of time. The deleterious effects on the economy are disputed only by the pro-Latino racists. Of course, one has to actually work for a living to notice.

Oh and of course, let's by all means tear down the Statue of Liberty. That hyperbole definitely adds to the discussion.

I notice that everybody who disagrees with you is defined as a bigot. That helps your cause as well.

Now then, hopefully now that you've got that neanderthal attack reflex out of your system, there, Alley Oop, you can stick to rational argument instead of name calling.

But if you think that name calling is going to change the facts on the ground as they are, well, hey, you just knock yourself out, big fella. You might be shocked to find out that I don't live for your love.

But better that if you have something rational to add to the discussion, some personal experience, some facts, something -- anything -- you should stick to that. It becomes you more than acting as self-appointed English teacher who resorts to critique of style over argument on substance.

I agree with trippin and chessgame56, I feel we have a job shortage in this country, for the US citizens. The illegals work for less money which makes it hard for the rest of us, while the employer makes out better than ever.

Ironically, here in Arizona most of the explosive, non-sustainable growth is due to "immigration" from the Midwest and Northeast--thousands of miles from here. Meanwhile, people who are actually indigenous to this area, but were born on the wrong side of the border, are referred to as "aliens."

Just look at the trends and what's happening to our jobs. Corporations cannot cut benefits or outsource/insource jobs fast enough. Recently, I went to a construction site to perform some IT work, and had a hard time finding someone who spoke English! Many of the jobs being done there by immigrants were skilled. It's very difficult to believe that American workers could not be found to do these same jobs for a decent living wage. And I think that's the point: employers want to skim by, paying as little as they can get away with. And if they can get away with it, what's to make them stop? They can blah, blah, blah all they want about how altruistic they are, when the real truth is that the only thing they care about is lining their pockets. Without sensible regulation, American citizens and immigrants alike, become mere pawns in a ruthless profit-making game.

The polls I've seen suggest that americans :
want less overall immigration
want to avoid rapid deportations
want to see less concentration of wealth
want true jobs growth for existing Americans

Now, to put this in perspective:
The US has a very high rate of immigration. The US gets about 10 Million applications for immigration each year-and accepts only about 1-1.2 Million. Another 800K-1.2 Million immigrate illegally each year. The public might accept some slight raise of the legal quota to really dramatically reduce illegal immigration. 1.4 Million is still a significant overall reduction. Even if that were halved, the US would still be a high immigration country by international standards.

I suspect that unless the US truly reinvents itself technologically and economically, it will have trouble accepting more than 700K immigrants each year and maintaining living stardards. I'm perfectly willing to accept substantial technological and economic change in the US-but until we really see results that mean more and better jobs for Americans, reduced wealth concentration and increased disposable income for low earning Americans, I think we need to approach this whole issue VERY carefully.

Trippin wrote:
'No one is advocating deportation. Existing laws requiring prison for employers hiring illegal aliens need to be enforced. That's all.'

The range of immigration offenses that carry prison time are actually pretty narrow. Also, the current fines are currently capped at $25,000 per violation or so. The potential benefit per violation is substantially greater than that. Ask yourself what someone would have to give you to renounce your US citizenship? There are places that sell citizenship--and the going rate is often around $150K. My calculation is that US citizenship is worth at least $300K-and probably more.

People are willing to risk prison time if big money is at stake-and until the fines and risk of getting caught outweigh the benefits from violating US immigration law, the employers will continue to do so.

I think that enforcing the existing laws would change the game pretty dramatically--but I don't think it would really solve the problem. Drug dealers, credit card fraud artists and other criminals would still routinely violate US immigration law. We'd still see employers that see the current fines as just a cost of doing business. Illegal immigration would be less common than now, but it would take a lot more to get the situation really under control. Furthermore,if the needs of Mexico and Central America aren't really considered here, a rapid enforcement of US immigration laws could destabilize the region. It will probably take more money than the fines collected to avoid that problem.

I support enforcement of existing immigration law-but I think a lot more will be necessary to really resolve this issue honorably and fairly. I suspect it will take so much that if that is done, we will no longer see any substantial concentrations of wealth or political power in the Americas.

trippin is not tripping.

Be sure to read his post, Roberto.

This is a nation of laws, theoretically, and xenophobia. racism, homphobia, etc, are separate issues.

If you sneak into this country you are:

1. abandoning your own country
2. violating the laws of this country

People from the south tend to have a bad time of it in their own countries, where they have been exploited by US corporations and US funded death squads. The US has treated them poorly by supporting the worst elements in their native societies.

The US also treats them poorly by looking the other way as they sneak across the border because sooner or later the law must be enforced and the illegals may find themselves once again in an oppressive situation.

These people are not free loaders. They work hard, most of them. They are exploited, most of them.

The hope is that there will be a quality of mercy in the new immigration law.

There must be law.

Cease your demagoguery, Roberto. Support a nation of laws. You're not doing them any favors by polarizing the political environment.

trippin,
very good perspective. I always wonder what the illegal immigration advocates gain. At the risk of repeating myself, I think commondreams gets co-opted by the neoliberals on the immigration issue; notice no article by immigration opponents are posted and most folks like yourself are shouted down and called bigots or racist. I'm a little disillusioned with the whole "progressive" ideology. From the posts I see and the people I talk to (I live in a border state with the oldest Hispanic population in the country) most people want controls on immigration -meaning less of it.
Rodriguez article is shameful and uses what all radical racist Hispanics use -the race card.
Also, to Moonraven, the "europeans" who did the indigenous populations the most damage were the Spanish. Your people were enslaved, murdered and raped and I'm willing to bet you are not 100% full-blooded Amerindian. Most Hispanic people today have Spanish/Mexican blood, among others, and if you look back into history and look at the connection with the Moors you'll get an idea of what "blood" mestizos do have.
People should google studies made by White and Hispanic sociologists who agree that the influx of Latino will not integrate into America as European immigrants did. In fact, opinions suggest the "balkanization" of America as cultures become more separate. You can observe that in my home state.

When were Asians ever lynched. I do not recall. He must be talking about the time they were rounded up during ww2 because they may be a security threat. None were killed so it is not the same.
It is not skategoating lots are coming over and having an affect on wages.
What does this person do for a living and would he be so welcoming to his brothers if his wage was lowered to 2 dollars an hour.

Nanoo, I repeat, do you really think that all those unemployed people will run out and pick tomatoes, prunes, apricots, apples, strawberrys, potatoes, and cotton (do they still pick cotton?) if those pesky brown folks were kept on their side of the border? Let's say they get minimum wage, and believe me it would never be more (and I would even lay money on Congress exempting farm labor from minimum wage laws), do you really think all those people unemployed, or all those people unhappy with their current jobs will flock to the fields to do stoop and sweat labor?
hahahahaha-no, hell no
I say back the buses up to the border and truck em in-thank you Mexicans.

I'm an opponent of illegal immigration, and I'm not advocating genocide.

We need to go after the right people, and those people aren't poor Mexicans looking for work. The right people are in big business, and they need to be fined and/or jailed for hiring illegal immigrants. Eliminate NAFTA and GATT, and forgive third world debt.

I don't want people coming here to do work that supposedly no one else will do for peanuts. Americans will do those jobs if they are paid a fair, reasonable wage. The people of Mexico need to turn the tables on their little oligarchy instead of just running here where quite frankly, they are not going to be much better off.

"I always wonder what the illegal immigration advocates gain."

I think that certain people want to increase their profit margins. I think there's also a pro-hispanic bias on the one side and an anti-hispanic bias on the other side. Sometimes when reading and listening to discussions about this issue, I get the feeling that if most of the people coming over here were from Iceland, the opinions would change, or they'd be non-existent. Would Mr. Rodriguez care? Or would be be against them? Would Pat Buchanan care? Or would he be welcoming them in?

What's really sad is that this issue is so clouded by race and ethnicity. And the solutions to the problem are very simple. They don't involve mass imprisonment and deportation and fences.

"This is not about xenofobia or fascism. It is a foil, so Roberto Rodriguez can have his sub minimum wage gardner and his wife can have her maid and nanny. Combine that with a bunch of rich pig business owners wanting exploitable labor, and certain foreign governments who find it easier to export problems than to fix them, and everybody is happy. Except the American working man. But, who cares about him anyway…

moonraven June 7th, 2007 3:56 pm
Powerslave, if you are the designated representative of the US working MAN (sexist as well as racist now), then the US working MAN deserves not to be cared about.

"As a Native American, I can say that the issue we are talking about here goes much deeper than xenophobia–since WE were here first–and it sets the stage for genocide, which is what the opponents of immigration are really calling for."

I'm not calling for the killing of anyone. Not everyone can just come here. That's part of the problem with this world today, everyone wants to go somewhere else instead of improving things where they are. I even see it in my city. Everyone wants to run to the sticks.

Part of it is America's fault. We exploit poorer nations and cripple them with debt. We have all the wealth and the power, so it's no wonder that so many people are just dying (literally in some cases) to come here. That just shouldn't be. The powers that be in Mexico want all their disgruntled folk to pack up and leave so as to not be a threat.

"This is not about xenofobia or fascism. It is a foil, so Roberto Rodriguez can have his sub minimum wage gardner and his wife can have her maid and nanny. Combine that with a bunch of rich pig business owners wanting exploitable labor, and certain foreign governments who find it easier to export problems than to fix them, and everybody is happy. Except the American working man. But, who cares about him anyway…"

It's cynical, but I don't really have a problem with what you're saying. Everyone gets screwed in this.

"moonraven June 7th, 2007 3:56 pm
Powerslave, if you are the designated representative of the US working MAN (sexist as well as racist now), then the US working MAN deserves not to be cared about."

Well, there ya go. I guess we're all a bunch of Archie Bunkers then. The right already sticks it to us, so I guess the left might as well also, as if intolerance is non-existent elsewhere. No wonder so many poor and working people don't vote. The right only cares about money and power. And the left only seemingly cares about identity politics (I know it's not everyone or even most, but still, that perception is there...).

"As a Native American, I can say that the issue we are talking about here goes much deeper than xenophobia–since WE were here first–and it sets the stage for genocide, which is what the opponents of immigration are really calling for."

I'm an opponent of sorts, and I don't want anyone getting killed over this. It doesn't have to be that way.

I screwed up. :) Man that post is a mess. Sorry.

After thinking about it, I do think it is about fascism to an extent. It's actually the corpro-fascists who benefit from this in the end. I mean, what else are they?

The Elites are the ones who need to be villified in all of this not the immigrants. They are victims also as are the working and poor people of America. We're being pitted against one another.