"Management from below" is exactly what has been happening. President Bush is too dimwitted to create a fiasco like this, all by himself. The question is whether Condi Rice and the neoconservative mob has repented of their foolishness to start a new approach to getting us out of there, including our oil companies and bases. I doubt it.

By the way, Idavin is remarkably insightful about the way our media works.

May be the deal with Fox news to be a talking-head analyst did not go off too well. But just like other military "leadership" he is a day late and dollar short.

Having worked in bureaucracy for 20 years myself, I've seen leadership crises time and again. Typically you can practice a little of what might be called "management from below" by nudging in small ways, to guide/shape/counsel one's manager away from gross folly and back into sanity. The extent to which this is increasingly necessary suggests an increasing scale of leadership crisis.

So if the crisis exists with regard to Iraq, on such magnitude, then one must conclude that the same crises exists with health care, science & environmental policy, economic policy, the whole shebang.

How is it that we became a confederation of dunces? Any clean way to back out?

We should remind ourselves that the largest creditor to the USA is the private and non-transparent central bank, the Federal Reserve. War is not possible w/o borrowing money from them first. Even though laws must be passed by Congress and the Prez to borrow funds, if the Fed, as our sole creditor, didn't readily allow the US to borrow more money beyond what we already owe to 'promote democracy abroad no matter what the cost', then we wouldn't be in this war crisis in the first place. A rising US debt from war is a blessing more to the Federal Reserve than to any other multinational company such as Halliburton. The higher the debt, the more profit to be made from debt servicing. Remember, it is very rare that any country can afford to go to war without borrowing. The Fed currently receives $400 billion in interest payments a year on the US debt, that is far more income than any other private corporation, and the majority of that is profit - that makes them the most profitable company in the world - a fact often overlooked and unpublished by corporate media. History records that money lenders, such as the Rothschilds of Europe, have been involved in the provokation of war to increase government debt and to leverage their lending power over a government once that government is severely in debt, such as the US is right now to it's multinational creditors which own the Fed. This is why our partisan government has no power to change the current direction of war. Overt war is obvious for taking control of a country, but financial warfare is commonly overlooked as being able to achieve the same goal - using credit as leverage for political control. This power is no different than your bank's power to make sure you are employed and working all year round for the next 30 years in order to pay off your mortgage - there is no easy escape - unless you sellout. The borrower IS servant to the lender - and that is Washington DCs biggest dirty little secret. Washington is servant to the Fed. The Fed has more control than you could possibly imagine. And the undisclosed stockholders of it represent a force of internationalists with world molding totalitarian policies that are taking more effect everyday - they are that 'tiny clique' that Erasmus speaks of - a clique of warlords can only get so far on their own unless they have lots of money to wage war. The money power behind the Fed ownership has more lobbying power over government than any PAC. Watch the documentary Money Masters on video.google.com for a thorough review of history going back to Roman times and a critical review of how unscrupulous bankers for the last 2000 years have manipulated governments and their populations by controlling the supply of money and lending, using all possible means of deceit. It remains far worse a situation than you might possibly think - and this secret will not reveal itself to the voting masses - however it remains an open conspiracy that is not afraid to carry out it's will on the world by wielding it's power w/i our most prominent thinks tanks in the US that have direct influence over Congress and the Executive Branch - this is reality. Look into the CFR and their Foreign Affairs mag and you'll have the US foreign affairs playbook before it becomes history. It might not seem possible that such a money power group could have such inhumane intentions, but if you understood how this same group, and the religion they share, has been persecuted more than any other religion and pushed out of one country after another for the last 2000 years, it won't be a mystery as to why the policies they push in the US government will pit Christianity vs. Islam in modern wars - because it weakens their own long time enemies and it's profitable to finance both sides at war. For them religion is just a tool, yet it's always been about the money and power - follow the money trail to the very top of the chain and you'll find your bad guys - the international banking elite - aka world financial oligarchy. They are real, most powerful, and THEY are the ultimate influence in turning the USA into a corporate fascist wasteland, as well as the EU and the Middle East. In todays' modern world ruled by finance, debt is the greatest weakness, and credit is king.

The Iraq war is a success.

The US was able to change Iraqi law so that 'US' corporations can own a larger share of the oil production profits. We will now have permanent bases in Iraq (good thing that we didn't have to have the Iraqis democratically vote to approve that). And our billions of tax dollars being spent on the 'war against terrorism' effort are being divided fairly among the mercenaries, including Black Water, Halliburton, and the oil companies.

You have to wonder what will it take to end this war? Another 58,000 dead US soldiers like Vietnam (another war started on false pretenses)? We are on our way to achieving that.

Of course, what is misssing from this arguement, if we want to be honest with ourselves, is the recognition that it was a mistake to go into this war in the first place. The atrocities that we hung Saddam for are being carried out our own troops. Does it make a difference to an innocent family sitting around in their living room if Saddam gassed them or we dropped a bomb on them? Injustice is injustice. How much 'colateral damage' is accpetable? I don't want the military to determine that.

Honorable people can do inhonorable deeds, especially if they just follow orders without thinking or awareness. A soldier is put into a tough position because they are asked to follow orders without questioning, yet they are responsible for their actions, expecially if they commit war crimes.

These retired generals speaking out are too little too late. It's the current Generals in charge that should be speaking out (if our congress won't).

peace and justice
AG

How many deaths wil it take till they learn that too many people have died??"

Paul Bramscher wonders: "How is it that we became a confederation of dunces? Any clean way to back out?"

Educator John Taylor Gatto has some interestig insights into this:

http://www.spinninglobe.net/condunces.htm

The last I heard the Bush Administration intends to stay in Iraq permanently, as in Korea. To do that they need a permanent foreign policy and a permanent Administration - a dictatorship, which they can achieve by politely stepping aside to let AlQaeda make Bush a hero again, as on 9/11, then declare a national emergency, cancel the elections and rule by decree - or so the madmen in the White House think. If the nation goes bankrupt in the process they can simply close down the social safety net, which Republicans have hated since its 1930s beginning in the Roosevelt years. Bush and Cheney and their many allies in Congress represent only themselves and their corporate supporters, nobody else. So, whatever else they say or do is fascist propaganda.

It's a pity that this headline won't appear in the mainstream papers or be talked about on the TV news and radio shows. They'd rather fill the American people's heads with drivel about the tuberculosis man, Hilary & Obama.

The estimated eight hundred thousand Iraqis that have been killed, plus the millions crippled by the terrorist US establishment is not reported. It is not news.

The truth if widely known, would be very inconvenient for the US establishment. The truth is their enemy.

Send "Dirty Sanchez" to Abu Graib for re-education..he helped to create this mess, and is now happy with "staving off defeat?"

I feel a book coming, "How I F***** up Iraq, but it wasn't my fault".

I imagine that Sanchez, like many other youngsters in the military actually believe that they are fighting in a "war on terror" - that they're defending democracy, freedom, etc. just like the propagandists say.

Like far too many American people, they've been brainwashed. The same thing happend to the German people under Hitler.

When the truth about what is going on is known, it sets us free from the delusions (that those who don't know about suffer from).

That's one of the reasons why excellent places like commondreams.org & democracynow.org are so important.

We need the truth!

how hard is it to trot out a general to say something? we might be winning...we might not be winning...the surge will work...the surge doesn't appear to be working...give the surge more time...we need more surge...

yawn

"thetruthwillsetufree" has said it well. GREED is a tremendous motivator. Where do you suppose we get phrases like "the Almighty Dollar," "money talks" and "the bottom line?" And why do you suppose inhumane human poverty is so pernicious and pervasive? It's not because of laziness, its because of the GREED of those "who already have it made" (and don't know when enough is enough).

And we can forget about leaving, too. Which is why we are not allowing the Iraqis to build an air force, navy, Special Ops, etc. Because then they would be able to defend themselves from the drooling gov-oil-mil complex. You know... us. Sanchez talks about "winning" as if that word has meaning with regards to an illegal invasion followed by an illegal occupation. How does one win an (oil) bank robbery?

so how many generals ( including colin powell ) have basically broken from the "chicken-hawks" and their insane militatism?

the code of conduct has never seen more dissent

And McCaffrey thinks support for the war will evaporate within 36 months.

Can he be told that 36 months is three long years, and that support evaporated a long time ago in spite of all the (continuing)lies.

Dear Readers:
Where do you get your news? If it is from the mainstream TV stations, then you are doomed to be fed baloney. You must READ. The best investigative reporting being done these days is in the weekly magazines -- The New Yorker, The New Republic, the Wall Street Journal,.....If you say you do not have time to read then you are doomed to be duped. Just don't vote.

I am an American retired from the US Dept of State -- a diplomat --and I live in France. I speak 6 languages and am a good listener. It is so sad to see how the goodwill toward the USA after 9 /11 has been squandered by this administration.

But ultimately we the people are responsible for what positions our country takes. Wake up, folks. Take personal responsibility. Dig beyond 30 second news. We are smart people. Don't roll ovr and play dead. Question. Demand answers that make sense. USE YOUR COMMON SENSE and require that your elected representatives truly do represent your views.

It is OUR job to do this not THEIRS -- whoever THEY are.

Kate

3 words... WAR CRIMES TRIBUNALS....

Well, of course we can't win! It's an occupation. You can't win an occupation. All you can do is protect and provide for the occupied people until you get out of their country and compensate them for their enormous losses due to your earlier war of aggression and your failure to live up to your duties as an occupying power.

However, that doesn't mean you can't have a whole lot of sick fun kidnapping and torturing people while you are there. Just ask Sanchez, the guy who did his best to cover up, rationalize and take no responsibility for abu Graib and a system of torture carried out elsewhere in Iraq.

We are villians to the majority of Iraqis. The majority wants us out now. Until we are out, the government there will not be seen as legitimate, and the insurgency will continue to take its toll.

I'd say that 700,000+ people counts as a Genocide.

Dear kateschertz,
I think most of the people on this thread are on the same page. It may be true that they/we are on the same page for a variety of reasons but none-the-less we want to see Bush and Cheney tar and feathered and run out of town on a rail.
The problem is that the country is so polarized that when some "too late with too little" voice like Sanchez's is heard, with all it's caveats it is interpreted anyway you want it. Sanchez is obviously floating a trial balloon for a book-god it's pathetic.
Back to you kateschertz, I agree that the New Yorker, New Republic and (the Wall Steet Journal-what are you thinking?) have good information but the people whose minds we need to change listen to Rush Limbaugh and read bumper-stickers.

I accept that it is important to find the truth behind the spin and disinformation and that takes time. One of my sources is the articles on current events in the " New York Review of Books"....I have learned so much that I did not get otherwise. Iacoca?? said that you can find out the quality of a person's character by how they handle power....The ordinary people are not " dumb"...they just do not have many people of good character to vote for.....I suspect that people of poor character have difficulty in resisting the corrupting quality of power. That is why nearly all government is in thrall to corporations, special interests and their henchmen. Can we invent a system whereby people of strong character will run for office ( and get elected!!)

Honest John,

No. The only trustworthy government is locally controlled, managed and directed by the people themselves for their own local interests. Anything above that level is corruptable and suspect.

General Sanchez says we can forget about victory in Iraq, then later states the US will need a large troop commitment in Iraq for years to come. Why does that sound nutty to me; am I crazy or is it someone else this time?

The real definition of winning for the Bush Administration was never to make Iraq safe for democracy, or for it to be independent. It was to make Iraq safe for foreign investment by US oil interests. It was also designed to give the US a permanent military foothold in this oil rich region.

Death, destruction, mayhem, none of that matters if you can secure the oil infrastructure and get highly favorable deals from a puppet government for big oil. As some have already noted, it's easier to loot a country at gun point than to use diplomacy.

Even that warped and limited vision seems unattainable now. Or so we can hope.

Imagine accusing your neighbor of having a gun and then murdering him and his family. Then moving into his house and saying your going to stay till you win.

It's insurgents vs. collaborators.

The insurgents are justified by:
Abu-Ghraib
The protests that demanded elections
The corporate profiteering
The use of white phosphorus as a weapon (shake and bake) against civilians.
The fact that the policy setters in the USA are former oil executives.
The massive destruction of civilian infrastructure.
The fact that there was a clear agenda to start this war outlined in the PNAC doc.
The appointing of John Negroponte and the Honduran-like death squads which appeared shortly after.
The guarding of the oil ministry while everything else was looted.

Another rodentia departing the ship of disorder.

Sanchez- Key player in Abu Graib, massive arrests. Who knows how many cover ups of war crimes, like in Fallujah, etc. ?

Sanchez- Whitewasher of sexual assualts and deaths due to fear of sexual assult of US women soldiers by fellow US soldiers.

Good intentions?

In a PIG'S EYE! (No insult meant to any pig, boar, wild or domesticated hog as they could not stoop to the level of Sanchez or anyone in the Bush Regime.)

Army Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez just passed the "cojones" test. Unlike the Bush White House with Bush (rich boy alternative to fighting in Iraq), Cheney (request for FIVE deferrments before his first daughter was born to be successful) or Rove (weasel draft dodger) Army Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez has been there and done that.

It is appalling that the huge multi-billionaire corporations have been able to put this sicko team together in the White House, caused an invasion of a country, been the cause of hundreds of thousands of people dying and being injured or displaced. Trillions of dollars down the tubes. The real enemy is the employers of the neo cons.

Bush and company need to be impeached out of office.

Victory to Sanchez means no more bombs and killing.

Victory to the bastards in the white house & pentagon means perpetual/permanent conflicts most importantly:
1) control of Iraq oil and political appointees
2) perpetuating the false belief that the hundreds of billions poured into what they call "defense" is necessary to protect the USA.

Peace, truth, and diplomacy are their worst ememies.

==================

The quote that was used at the end of Michael Moore's F911:

"It's not a matter of whether the war is not real, or if it is, Victory is not possible. The war is not meant to be won, it is meant to be continuous. Hierarchical society is only possible on the basis of poverty and ignorance. This new version is the past and no different
past can ever have existed. In principle the war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia but to keep the very structure
of society intact." George Orwell

GOP Deity Ronald Reagan had the right idea--after the "terrorist" attack on the Marines in Lebanon, he withdrew the US military--without rebuke from his supporters.

This war may end when the Korean war ends, but no sooner.

A lot of us knew this was going to be the outcome before Bush ever gave the go ahead to invade Iraq. When you have religious nuts involved it can only turn out one way! It's like letting the gene out of the bottle and there is no way of getting it back in once you have done that. I am not entirely certain that wasn't some of Bush's motivation to begin with. He was trying to Christianize the middle east in his own infantile way! I am certain that's what the Muslim's think. But, that's irrelevant now. We are mired in a mess that isn't going to end until the civil war burns itself out or we just leave. I will have to agree with Senator Byrd from West Virginia! Bush accomplished the goals he set out to accomplish. He originally invaded to remove WMD which proved there were none. He invaded to topple Saddam Hussein, which he did the man is now dead. So, why are we still there???? Now it's time to reconsider our position there. It's time for Congress to decide if we continue this war or not! But, I haven't heard where his proposal before the Senate went if it has gone anywhere?

Four and a half years into the conflict/occupation, and we get this:

The US ambassador in Baghdad, Ryan Crocker, reacted on Sunday to Sanchez's comments by insisting: "It's just way premature to be talking in terms of victory or defeat."

The world had better wake up pretty damned soon to the fact that the US is the rogue state of this planet. It has been waging wars of aggression of one sort or another from the very beginning. Not that too many other nations haven't done their fair share of this sort of thing, but the stakes now are so much higher. If I had operational control of the world for one day I would kick the US out of the UN and NATO and get everyone on board to boycott the US, just like South Africa was boycotted until it changed its ways. Oh and I'd kick Israel out of the UN too, since they pay no attention to any of its resolutions anyway. The US is like a drunk behind the wheel of a car: somebody needs to take the keys away.

When the people lead,
the leaders will follow.

I love his line: "They were all working to do the best damn job they can to get things right."

If this operation resulted in so much horrific torture and bloodshed, the best damn job they could do was still rife with heinous immorality and incompetence -- if that's the "best" they could do, how shameful!

What about the ordinary level of their morality and competence, when they were not doing their very best?! For shame that they should have this power.

1.....The West started both the World Wars (see the three websites below) and killed more people than the whole world has killed in the last 2000 years.
2.....And now again it looks that we want to start another war.
3.....And why do we call both the wars as World Wars, should they not be called Western Wars.
4.....Why are the good Christians keeping quiet while the liars Bush and Blair keep on killing and occupying.
May the Lord help us all to bring humanity, kindness and humility

http://jahtruth.net/freedman.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_H._Freedman

If Americans are going to pay for the war, they should be shown the war, including pictures of the hundreds of thousands of little children and women who have been killed and permanently disfigured in Bush's so called "war on terror".

The truth about the ugliness and horror of war SHOULD be reported by our so called "news" media. When the truth about it is widely known, the people will demand that diplomacy be used, not bombs and tanks and all that highly profitable horror crap that the misleaders of our F'd up establishment apparently, hold so dearly.

WAR PICTURES

Pictures of Destruction and Civilian Victims of the Anglo-American Aggression in Iraq

These photos are only of a very tiny fraction of the hundreds of thousands of Iraqi Civilian Victims who have been terrorised, humiliated, injured, maimed and killed through British and American bombing of civilian areas in
various cities of Iraq. Due to insecurity, independent reporters could not and still can not reach many areas to photograph and report the atrocities. Several independent reporters and journalists were deliberately bombed to prevent them reporting the atrocities.

WARNING:
PLEASE NOTE THAT SOME OF THESE PICTURES ARE NOT SUITABLE FOR SMALL CHILDREN AND THOSE WITH WEAK HEARTS.

Robert Fisk: http://snipurl.com/h6tm

Mind Prod: http://snipurl.com/h6tp

What do you think of this? Since this war will not end through Congress - what if we started connecting citizen to citizen in a letter writing or email campaign - like pen pals - to share our stories, get to know each other etc. Is there a nonprofit that can start this? How would we start it? The power of people truly understanding that citizens of the United States care, want the war to stop, aligned with Iraqis who hold the same beliefs (keeping religion out of it)perhaps ripples will begin to gain momentum and we can change this sad world. There is absolutely no way that oil corporations should own any of the rights to Iraq oil. The people of Iraq own it and need to democratically decide what to do with the profits. When I heard the caveat that the oil profits need to be managed by the big oil bastards, all the reasons for this war used by our lying President and Vice President were proven again as lies. The other thing - I would like to see the religious bodies in this country organize and begin to lend a dissenting voice on the war. That would be a reason to support faith's involvement in the process - to actually demand that we speak through our godly action and intention.

Isn't it time for another tax cut?

barbarag,

Your post reminded me of how totally unnatural it seems for Americans to organize. We have a sense that it might make a difference, but our individualistic, consumer culture keeps us so separate. When I was in Mexico recently (and Venezuela not too long ago) I was so amazed at the ability of the "uneducated" people to organize and their courage to stand up to their oppressors. I kept asking how they did it, and they sort of looked at me like "what's so hard about talking to the people in your community?"

I volunteer for my Democratic party as an elected precinct committee person.) In order to get "elected", I needed to get 10 signatures from people in my precinct to get on the ballot. With a list of registered democrats in hand, I went walking -- in 115 degree heat in Phoenix -- in my neighborhood. It took me more than 2-1/2 hours to get those ten signatures. Not because people wouldn't sign, but because people wouldn't even OPEN their door! I am a petite female -- hardly intimidating. I just don't see how we, the people, will ever be able to accomplish much if we can't get better at organizing.

Becareful talking about organizing. You could be considered a terrosist. Thanks to the trampling of our rights and liberties by this admin.

Ever wonder why someone with Bush's character was chosen to be president by his party?

So he can be blamed for everything wrong!

Corporate Media pundits say he was Reaganesque but now he's turned against them (immigration); so he's worse than Jimmy Carter.

They knew before he was ever elected that he would be the sacrificial sheep to save the Republican Party.