I live along the Arizona-Mexico border, and these clowns are all over the place, hiding in the bushes, talking on their secret decoder rings, packing weapons and trying to act like law enforcement with their 'patrolling' and watch stations and all...buncha dysfunctional vigilante right wingnut gun totin' jerks trying to play 'patriots or soldiers'.

Most locals will honk and wave support and all--I give 'em the finger. Unfortunately, I'm in the minority around here.

I see the poor immigrants daily, generally lost, dehydrated and confused, many with their entire families, kids--even babies--wandering around lost or trudging down the road, or under arrest by 'La Migra' on the side of the road. Anybody that's willing to walk hundreds or thousands of miles thru hostile territory, one or more countries and the scorching desert for hundreds of miles around here to take a job picking vegetables or fruit for pennies a pound gets a thumbs up from me. Let 'em in, give 'em the work. And pack the Minuteman whackjobs off to Iraq if they're so hot on defending the country--or have them go do this work!

Yes, we need immigration reform, and not twenty-foot high walls...I figger they're trying to keep us in as much as them out. We got helicopters buzzing all over, Predator drones, the Border Patrol following you in your car or truck, often pulling you over and harrassing you and setting up illegal roadblocks and checkpoints--and you'd better look lily white and Citizen, show your papers!--I tell you folks, it's a war zone down here, all over a bunch of harmless willing workers looking for a way out of poverty south of the border.

The good news is there's lots of money to be made and jobs to be had defending the US against these hordes of brown foreeners! It's the Brown Invasion!

This ain't my beautiful country.

McAskill sez:

"Mr Wright said: "We asked for a meeting and this insanity is the result of that … We were worried that the standard operating practice was not being followed as religiously as should have been." Hundreds of members were now leaving, he said.

In a separate development, a contributor to the Minutemen is suing for the return of a $100,000 (£50,000) donation, after their failure to build a promised Israeli-style barrier on the Arizona-Mexico border."

****************

This sounds like 1941 (John Belushi movie) meets the PTL club (Jim and Tammy Faye's congame of about 30 years ago). Now imagine the Prince of Darkness (not that one--I mean the head of Blackwater Inc. LLC) gets a faith-based initiative contract to do the same thing. Unsavory!

Sounds like the Beverely Hillbillies meets the Deliverence Boys

I think that, rather than making fun of the Minutemen, we should try to understand them. Their actions might be reprehensible, their rhetoric stomach-turning, but the impetus for action has some root in reason. Sure, they like to feel macho and patriotic, armed and strutting to protect America, but even in that there is something we need to understand. These "patriots" lack a sense of value in their everyday lives and they are looking for meaning and purpose. Because most of them have spent their lives as dispensible cogs, they need a world of fantasy where they are important. Important in a way that we outsiders just don't understand or appreciate. They are playing the movie role of the tough guy martyr who is unappreciated, even as he saves the day for all of us. While it is obvious and comical to outsiders, what must it be like to be inside that skin? To feel such a strong urge to MATTER.

And the impetus to protect the border is not without some true economic sense, if dreadfully misguided. The minutemen know that their economic lot in life is a poor one. They know, too, that the jobs are going to foreigners. They IMAGINE that those foreigners are coming across the border to take away the economic prosperity of Americans instead of the jobs sneaking across that same border DELIVERING the jobs (though not the prosperity) to these same foreigners. Minutemen probably shop at Wal-Mart with no concept of what they are purchasing there. They have no idea that the true enemy crossing the Border is located on semi-trucks, legally passing through check points. They have no idea that their true allies in the war for meaning and prosperity are the very people they want to put between the crosshairs.

When the Irish rioted over the draft for the Civil War, it was attributed to racism. But the Irish lived, and reproduced with, Blacks as did no other Americans. It was the realization that freed slaves meant slave wages for all working people. American traditionally had higher wages in industry than in other countries because of a labor shortage. The freeing of millions of unpaid agricultural workers would mean a flood on the labor market. They knew they were being asked to lay down their lives in order to lower their standard of living beyond reason. It is at this moment in history that the Irish were first allowed to BECOME White, of course, to keep that labor divided, at war with itself, just as the minutemen are now at war with their natural allies.

The point is, we should try to understand the Minutemen and see the sense within the nonsense. Perhaps then we can find a way to teach solidarity. Probably a fantasy, but it is a better alternative than throwing up our hands and declaring them to be a lost cause. They are, potentially, a part of the solution because their anger and frustration is justified, if misguided. One suspects that this lack of vision is the very point of "No Child Left Behind": Making a population more easily misguided, more easily divided. Let's combat this by reaching out to what is righteous in the anger of the Minutemen.

emkay said:
"And pack the Minuteman whackjobs off to Iraq if they're so hot on defending the country–or have them go do this work!"

These posers only target unarmed civilians that can't shoot back. On second thought, they might like Iraq just fine.

Sounds like these good-ol-boys could use gun-nut Ted Nugent down there.

By the way, can one be arrested giving water or shelter to these immigrants? No, I don't live there, just wondered.

Hey, I think they could stop all those beaners from coming accros the border if the miute men would take their low paying slave-labor jobs thus no one would hire Mexicans-no, the jobs would be filled by legal minute men working the fields, busing tables, doing the nanny duties. Yes, minute men working for less than minimum but keepin the border free of illegals.

The illegal immigrants coming across the Mexican border are an exploding population in Central and South America, and the solution is not border patrols but family planning clinics throughout the area. Yet, nobody here or anywhere else has the courage to even mention it let alone discuss it seriously, which is another symptom of a species so determined to avoid reality it will plunge toward extinction. What's the matter, Pope got your tongue?!

Lower middle class men are almost always full of anger. They form vast reservoir for brown shirts

Part of the problem, perhaps a small part, perhaps large, is NAFTA, which has lowered living standards for many in Mexico and Central America with the goal of insuring corporate profit here. There is no 'free trade', there are subsidies and protectionism by the US that hurts all poorer people in Latin America. It makes our exports to them cheaper than their own products, while penalizing their exports to us to protect American industry and agriculture.

Mexico is a two-tiered economic system with a vast disparity between the two groups; the majority is dirt poor and traditionally lived by subsistence farming and other cottage industries, and now live in tar paper shacks in ghettos or worse averaging $60 US a month in income. And there is a smaller group of elites who are relatively much richer, who I see driving SUV's I can't afford and shopping in town here, carting carloads of consumer goods back across the border,everything from shoes and clothes to major consumer goods. Good for WalMart here, but bad for the stores there who can't afford to charge the lower prices and lose the business to us.

If money is free to move around the globe (US factories moving to China for example) there must be freedom for people to follow the jobs and money. That's a basic economic principal and a foundation of true 'free trade'.

Just as we have seen jobs flee to cheaper labor in China and elsewhere, there are forces at work that make life harder for the poorer down there. For example, the maquiladoras (American factories that assemble or manufacture goods in
'free trade zones') along the border on the Mexican side encourage the population to move north in search of jobs, but there aren't enough jobs once they get there, so many continue north to look for work here.

Other factors are an influx of cheap agricultural products into Mexico, for example we ship large quantities of corn to Mexico that is cheaper than the prices subsistence farmers there can expect to get. This drives them out of the family farm and north to the promise of jobs. Of course the politics in the Latin American countries are to blame as well. The ruling class are driving Cadillac Escalades and they ain't eating beans and tortillas.

To answer a previous poster, yes, there are groups that help the immigrants. I'm not sure how technically legal they are, but they have a working understanding with the Border Patrol that allows them to patrol the border and offer food, water and minor medical care to those they come across. They can offer no other assistance like rides, not even rides to a hospital. There are also 'watering stations' set up thruout the border region, often with signage out in the desert telling them where they can obtain water, usually from barrels or stock tanks the groups keep filled. Of course they are frequent targets for those like the Minutemen and other 'patriots', that shoot holes or destroy the water storage.

We had something on the order of 800-900 people die here in the Arizona desert last year, primarily from dehydration or injury. Many of the illegals have paid 'coyotes' a life's saving to get them across the border--they will dump them in the middle of the desert and tell them Phoenix or Los Angeles is a few hours walk north. These people stagger down my street or into our town half dead with no clue how they've been taken, and no clue they are even illegal in many cases. They are illiterate peasants who were told the Land of Milk and Honey is a couple of hours walk 'that way' and they wander into trackless desert to die. By the time many are found, it is because they have been given cell phones by the coyotes and call to be rescued, and of course instantly deported back across.

The whole immigration problem is huge with many tentacles stretching over all the countries involved and their politics. My bottom line is we have the jobs, nobody here wants to or will do them, and we have a willing work force literally willing to die for those jobs. There has to be some solution that will work for everyone. I haven't seen it yet tho.

As for birth control, blame the stranglehold the Catholic church has on many Hispanic countries, Mexico especially.

"Lower middle class men are almost always full of anger. They form vast reservoir for brown shirts."

Isn't that the truth? And it's sad because they're victims also in all of this.

"And pack the Minuteman whackjobs off to Iraq if they're so hot on defending the country–or have them go do this work!"

Sure, let's use these disillusioned guys as cannon fodder for an illegal war.

The problem of illegal immigration can be solved by cracking down on the right people, and they aren't desperate impoverished Mexicans.

This is just yet another example of how the 1%ers pit us all against one another, poor and disenfranchised vs. poor and disenfranchised. We're all wetbacks and rednecks to them.

These crazies were set up at the US Canadian border...I am not sure who they thought they were going to stop...I don't know any Canadians that would try to sneak across the border into the US to improve their living conditions...
I watched an interview with their illustrious leader from Washington State...talk about redneck...graying hair to his shoulders, dirty cap and no front teeth...sneaking along the border with his loaded gun...MUST STOP ALL THOSE PESKY CANADIANS THAT ARE TRYING TO IMMIGRATE ILLEGALLY TO THE US AND STEAL ALL THE GREAT JOBS FROM US CITIZENS...I guess he didn't have a job if he had time for that nonsense...unfortunately this is the type of image that often is sent around the globe that makes the US appear rather foolish to the rest of the world...
very unfortunate..

Border patrols are usless...obviously.

The answer is radical. OPEN the border! Drop all barriers between the U.S., Canada and Mexico. Instead of fighting this loosing battle, make north America a free work zone. NO citizenship transfers just because someone has a job or dropped a baby at taxpayer's expence.

One maintains their native citizenship yet MUST pay taxes in ***BOTH*** countries! A little bit of retro incentive.

ALSO! Children born to illegal aliens in the US, do (according to the constitution) keep their US citizenship, and are automatically *dual* citizens of both countries.

However, if the child has no *legal* guardian in the U.S....he/she, may be deported to their parent's country (along with their illegal parent) until and unless they have a legal guardian in the US or they turn 18 and can return on their own to enjoy thir US citizenship. The same thing happens now in a dual country, parental custody matter.

What about security? Happily, there would *finally* be a clear definable perimeter to patrol...the coasts! Patroled by joint security from all three countries.

Everybody gets their rights, jobs get filled, taxes get paid, "baby dropping" by illegals to gain citizenship ends.
The borders are finally secure. We save BILLIONS!!!

Thanks

Unknown-Arts makes some reasonable points in his extended commentary... It's unfortunate that while we may think "them" as misguided and they may think we the same, but they are the ones with far more GUNS and a trained eye - which make them far more dangerous until we start doing the same.
---------------------
As an American living in Europe, I hate the violence that exists in the United States. I used to have a pistol and rifle myself when I lived in North Carolina, but when push comes to shove, the punch, and a fight (and quite frankly, I don't have much hope for ever resolving this widening spiral that the NeoConservatives have unleashed upon the country) the time may come when armed rebellion or serious civil conflict will have to be the better reply for their damnable, irrational aggression if words fail. Be prepared.

laughren,
It's obvious all those Canadians are dieing to sneak across to get our much better and more expensive healthcare....oh, wait.

D. Tiger, I think your open borders solution is closer to what I see as a solution than anything I've heard from the X-Spurts. It actually is the logical extension of what I said earlier, for truly 'free trade', labor must be able to follow the money and jobs. Open it all! Besides, borders are just imaginary lines on a map (and flags are rags), this area of southern Arizona, where everyone is so paranoid about 'Mexicans', WAS Mexico not that long ago historically.

Lobster is right on.Whether or not you are for or against illegal immigration,the end result is what he describes. A huge uneducated underclass is commencing the trashing of the southwest. I see them daily slowly turning this place into the third world mess they came from. Pope John Paul said "we are the church of the poor", I think he meant "we are the church that creates the poor" ! And now they are streaming north to make sure we know it. They need to go back and we Americans need to do with less.

Oh for heaven's sake! One of you said you didn't live "down here." Most of you decided to psychoanalyze the Minute-type Men.

Come on down and see the taxes we pay for all these tired, poor, ILLEGAL masses yearning to breathe free. Join us in paying for their special programs in education, housing, hospital and medical care, interpreters, transportation, welfare payments, food stamps. (You ought to see what junk they throw onto our streets and sidewalks expecting "somebody" else to pick it up.)

We just can't assimilate the numbers of people who arrive ILLEGALLY into our communities. Should we call this the trashing of America?!

Two points I failed to mention:

We have to pay extra for mandatory insurance because we live next door to Mexico (theft and all that). I queried The Hartford and they tell me it's mandatory since "so many people in the U.S. own houses down there."

Perhaps you've heard that non-Mexicans can't own property in Mexico. So we're helping ILLEGAL residents out so they can go back and forth?

Second: We don't have to make do with less. If all the illegal residents went home, we wouldn't need to pick so many tomatos, cabbage etc. We wouldn't need so many apartments, junky cars, so many uninsured drivers, and so much welfare as mentioned above.

For what it's worth, the FACTS are that Mexico has a growth rate just slightly above replacement (2.2 per woman) according to the most recent INEGI surveys. This is down tremendously from a generation ago and is probably related to increasing urbanization. So all this bilge about lack of family planning in Mexico is missing the point. There are so many migrants because NAFTA has kicked them out of their jobs.

As for lobster's second point, illegal residents aren't eating all the vegies. They are too expensive for them. They are eating junk food. And they certainly aren't using welfare because they are ineligible for it and they have a higher employment rate than American citizens as a whole. As for his first point, it lacks coherency.

dkm, you've got to be kidding!

This lobster didn't mention their women's population replacement rate. But since you brought it up, come on down and see how the quality of life has declined. We have way too many golf courses for which we need low pay greens keepers, way too many houses and very few vistas anymore. We pave over every possible beautiful natural feature of our landscape then charge admission to enjoy it.

Come on down and I'll take you on a drive to check mailboxes to see the names on the mailboxes so that people can get their welfare and SSI checks...people that don't exist except on the various "welfare" rolls.

Check our hospitals that are closing all over the area because they can no longer treat all the uninsured ILLEGAL residents. Then check our health insurance rates to see that we have the highest rates in the nation.

Check our schools and see the number of Title I students in our schools that provide special teachers for their children plus free lunch. While you're here, check our uninsured drivers.

I don't know who gave you the idea that illegal "residents" who don't qualify don't receive "help."

I buy one policy for me, one for them, one for me, one for them...

My impression is that those who want illegal residents should support them. Bring them into their own homes, educate them, feed them, insure them, until they can support themselves.

Let's imitate the Canadian system of applying for residency by sending x-rays to our capital, complete questionnaires about our schooling, health, and getting points for already having a job lined up and much much more.

You speak of increasing urbanization in Mexico. Yes, the people are coming down from the mountains to get work in the industrial north.

Check our water table. We have water shortages nearly every year. This is a desert, and we really can't handle a bunch of people.

Let me tell you how to flush a toilet in Monterey. When the water comes on at 6 a.m., you fill up your plastic garbage can kept for this purpose which you keep in your shower. After you heat a pan full of water on the stove you mix it with some cold water and pour it over your body, then soap, and pour on some more water.

The water goes off at 2 p.m. After that you take a bucket of water, pour it in the toilet tank then flush.

The hotels and people with big houses might have a tank on the roof which collects water automatically, but the middle class on down does it the way I've just described.

One more thing, legal immigrants don't like to work with illegal immigrants because the latter are clannish, have different aspirations and culture.

Down here though, we don't have a shortage of anything. We have a people "overage."

dkm: I think everybody should know where you get your informacion. We all should cite our sources.

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