I'll never forget reading that Bill Clinton, in his final days as President, told Tony Blair to make George Bush his "Go to, man."

Too bad that Blair is stepping down. Maybe Bill could've told Tony to make Hillary his "Booty call, girl."

These people make me sick!

Gorbachev, like the Soviet citizens he betrayed, has learned too late that everything he was taught about capitalism was true if not understated.

The lust for growing economic and political power expanding to empire seems to be a human instinct that re-appears throughout history, today as always, until we destroy the Earth's ability to support us, now imminent. Perhaps Bush will be the last dictator.

Gorby is one hundred per cent correct about the Bushes neo-nazi corrupt dictator empire.

There is no such thing as a non-evil empire, cantsilenceme. Ask any Canadian over 60 whether they'd rather live in a British colony or a client state of the US, and they'll tell you there's no way to measure which is more evil.

I guess Gorby should know, he presided over the dying days of the biggest, most evil empire the world has ever known.

You are both " living in glass houses ". Unlike you , probably a voting American citizen or British subject , Gorby has no control over whether or not America is or becomes an empire and so should reserve the right to critisize the "evil empire " . The corollary applies to you as well.

Trust me I'm not rationalizing the "most evil empire"but when you make a broad , bold statement like that , be prepared to verify it with a detailed comparison using the following criteria

1. Duration of empire

2. Number of foreign countries invaded and occupied

3. Total number of people killed , both occupying forces and occupied ,in order to sustain the empire.

Next , compare those numbers with those indicative of the formerly-independent societies that were swallowed up by the empire.

Next , now that you have the figures for the Russian Empire , pre-Czar and post-Czar repaeat the same procedure for the Assyrian , Greek , Roman , Holy Roman , Mongol , British , Spanish , French , German , Japanese , American...; that's a good start.

When an objective analysis of those figures proves that Gorby deserves your epithet and that all present empires accecpt the "most evil" is in the process of ameliorating the plights they foisted upon their respective occupieds then you can justifiably start casting stones.

A reciprocative challenge goes out to Gorby.

Mr. Gorbochev is absolutely right.

You people who hate him should consider the source of your information. My guess is that you got it from the corporate American "news". You believe (and say) exactly what the US establishment wants you to believe, and thats a bunch of hogwash.

The Cold War ended not as a triumph of capitalism over communism but because Mr Gorbachev went to America and talked about the need for peace and the ending of the Cold War.

The sleazy corporate whores in Washington are reigniting it, for the benefit of the insanely greedy pimps who own them.

By end of business tomorrow, Gorbachev will be known as another "irrelevant liberal" who, like Carter, dreams of a "terrorist victory" and a President bin Laden.

I don't hate Gorbachev, nor do I subscribe to the Reaganite blather about the old S.U. being the most evil empire in the world. The most evil empire the world has ever known has been the U.S., closely followed by Nazi Germany and then the British Empire.
But I do agree with the first writer above that Gorby betrayed the Soviet workers state to capitalism and imperialism.

It was a bureaucratically degenerated workers state, as Trotsky, its greatest victim, argued, not an evil empire.

cantsilenceme June 3rd--------

"I guess Gorby should know, he presided over the dying days of the biggest, most evil empire the world has ever known."

cantsilenceme, The most evil empire the world has ever known is right there in the middle east telling Bush his every move.

http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/bushlist.htm

"The Cold War ended not as a triumph of capitalism over communism but because Mr Gorbachev went to America and talked about the need for peace and the ending of the Cold War."

A minority opinion: the Cold War ended as all wars end: the one with the most energy won. The Soviet Union endured a peak in petroleum extraction, and the US successfully isolated it from new sources, notably, building pipelines in Afghanistan.

All wars are, in the final analysis, about control of resources. Painting this or that war as having to do with one or another economic system misses the boat.

Human beings, especially the male of the species, apparently have not yet evolved to the level of consciousness wherein we can understand that cooperation trumps hostility in almost all circumstances. As we have male leaders, already at a disadvantage because of their testosterone levels, and we have religious ideologies continuing to poison relations between peoples, we still have a long row to hoe. Blaming one another will not solve the problems of this Earth - but we must find common ground soon, or else we will create such havoc as our species will not be able to recover.

In the past 2,000 years - competition was a keynote. In the coming 2,000 years, co-operation will replace competition.

Separatism, will be replaced with a sense of unity and one-ness.

The view that life is a constant series of contests, of "us vs. them" is an illusion, that we human beings are destined to grow out of.

Obviously, many people already grasp that.

----------------

"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty." Albert Einstein

I wonder, do we justly deserve a bit of constructive critizism, generaly no matter whom speaks it? When one considers what we have done in the areas of world affairs and some affairs in our own country over the last fifty years or so, I believe we may deserve it. Korea, Vietnam and Iraq, to name just three. Our involvement in Iraq is the perhaps the most serious disaster in that group and the end of that mess is clearly not in sight.

Well, we elected our leaders and the problem there is, our election process should be drastically revised. Will that ever happen? I seriously doubt it; things will continue as they have until we very possibly join other once great nations that fell. When anything with faulty brakes starts to roll down hill, it's often difficult to even slow down, much less stop.

"The most evil empire the world has ever known" statement cause almost unanimous refutation on this forum, an event most unthinkable just few years ago. For that we have thank George W. Bush most energetically. For those who is not intimately familiar with the Soviet past most likely did not grasp how loaded and profound is Gorbachev's phrase "our American friends, were dizzy with their success". "Dizziness with Success" was a title of the article in Pravda in 1930, penned by Joseph Stalin with intention to stop running out of control collectivization campaign, which was started in wake of dramatic collapse in grain prices and stock market crash in 1919.

Future historians, free from their main task to explain out current power structure, may enlighten us how so called Roaring Twenties affected rise of Stalinism and Nazism, regimes driven by insecurity, destitution and fear mongering. Both regimes betrayed and finally devoured Russian and German Revolutions, which erupted as challengers to imperialist order. Both regimes were masterfully manipulated into mutual annihilation by new Empire builders. Would FDR stick to his grand vision of international cooperation, if he were to live to see the dawn of Bomb? But pygmy of a man, the plain spoken Harry, fell a victim of old decease, Dizziness with Success.

Then came other pygmies on both sides of the pond, who could not help build up of what was already overkill. When Khrushchev ordered demobilization of 1.2 million men from the Red Army, scrapping Air Force and Navy in order to easy life for Soviet people, his days became numbered. Next there came Mr. Gorbachev with his "new thinking" and stopping fear mongering. That was a tipping point, were the United States true to their projected image as We the People we might have be witnesses to post Bomb era of Reason. Instead pygmies of men collapsed into intellectual coma of Dizziness with Success.

My country, right or wrong; when right I will defend her; when wrong I will fight her. This is what Bolsheviks did in 1917 Russia before they metamorphosed into dogmatic Stalinists. Dizzy with success Cold Warrior Democrats metamorphosed into dogmatic Busheviks. They may go with the wimp as Stalinist did, or the may go with the bang as Hitler did, this time nuclear bang.

So it is way too early to compare evilness of Empires, well too early!

Wow, Jan Steinman nailed it!

yeah, jan is 100% correct. it's useless to talk about communism versus capitalism since the u.s.s.r was not a communist state and the united states economy is heavily regulated in favor of the plutocracy.

it is also extremely misinformed to assert that the u.s.s.r was a more evil empire than the u.s.a. throughout its history our country has been responsible for large-scale slaughter of human life. almost the entire indigenous population of this country was wiped out. what about slavery? in the 19th century the u.s. focused on dominating the western hemisphere, in the 20th century the world. this quest for hegemony has cost innumerable anoymous people their lives.

Russia used to have a overt totalitarian state. Now, both the US and Russia are covertly dictatorships, controlling press and misrepresenting the levels of corruption behind the bogus talk of democracy.

The US has been the aggressor in expanding the arms race. Bush unilaterally terminated the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty and took the high ground for offensive weapons in space, using the Trojan Horse deception of a missile defense. This plan to shoot down bullets with bullets is impractical and impossible. Yet, by all the nuclear nations joining together and outlawing weapons of mass destruction on earth, there is a chance for world security. But key to reach this level of cooperation is in erturning to the crucial goal for peace in outer space.

and lest we forget.. this dalai lama quote gives us a clear pathway for peace, too..

"Internal peace is an essential first step
to achieving peace in the world. How do you cultivate it?
It's very simple. In the first place by realizing clearly
that all mankind is one, that human beings in every country
are members of one and the same family."

-- His Holiness the Dalai Lama
For more on this background, see www.FlybyNews.com
Campaigns for Reclaiming a Lost USA Democracy

The first Cold War was a farce to keep the war economy going. Soon rather than the government running the war industry, the war industry was running America -- as Ike made clear.

JFK ended the Cold War and probably lost his life.

Today's left over Cold War makers and empire builders act not in the nation's interests, but in their own.

How do these ignorant asses expect to build an Empire when the money vaults are empty and you owe China and Japan two trillion worthless dollars.
When China says they are no longer buying our bonds and notes where will the money come from to pay for the military bases around the world to protect the empire.
This Empire thing is a joke; we are bankrupt!

Just one little correction. Roosevelt knew about the bomb. And he was preparing to use it on Amsterdam, just as Truman used it on Hiroshima, in order to frighten the Soviets.

Get over the cult of FDR as a wonderful provider and compassionate man. He was an imperialist, the leader of the U.S. empire.

Again pointing fingers will get us NO WHERE. It is really time to make a difference in our communities, in our homes, and in our own families. The only way a change is going to happen is if "WE THE PEOPLE" make it happen. There are so many things each of us can change NOW, stop waiting for someone else to do it. Peace be with you and pass the word!

I thought the brilliant Condi Rice was a specialist in Russian affairs; so why is the relationship between the U.S. and Russia worsening??

lillulu,

Because they both want emperial power over the same region. Russia and the USA are competing for domination of the Eurasian continent, which puts them in conflict with China's ambitions. There could be another World War.

Historically, all dominant nations come to a point where they ask: "If we are so powerful, why shouldn't we run the shop?". I am not aware of a country which resisted this temptation. Then they go through a cycle which ends in the break-down of an attempted empire and a great loss of leadership position. I am sure, Bush and what he stands for, will go away pretty soon. My feeling is also, that there is a very powerful and positive movement in the US which Bush finds harder and harder to ignore and suppress. I also believe that the leadership on certain environmental issues will move back to the US.

Thankyou fellow Progressives, -some worthy comments here. I liked yours Amitola, and, [although you are a fan of the miscreant Ben Crème, Aum33] I believe you also are on the right wavelength! ;)

As to Mr Gorbachev, I believe this man was divinely inspired and I personally have enormous respect for him. He did an enormous amount to help re-establish sensible international relations, and it's a shame that his progressive break with the past was then sullied with debased and opportunistic US leaders whooping it up as if they had (for once) done something original, brilliant or incisive.

They did not.
Being as daft as the average toilet brush, they merely latched onto the coat tails of a man much more intelligent and perceptive than them.

Rabid egotism is never a very attractive or constructive trait, ~ and is especially unbecoming in one purported to be the leader of an important nation such as the USA.

Overall, we could usefully put aside all thoughts of 'who is, or was, to blame'.
Blame is not a constructive energy in human relationships, ~it merely antagonises people. Much more constructive is to admit where each of us [yes, even you and I !] have failed to do our best, and then focus on how best to correct our foibles and out right the problems in hand.

As usual, the Dalai Lama brings a good insight into the inner workings of human nature, and Einstein was no slouch when it came to perspicacity either! :)

Mr Gorbachev, -being a wise and elder statesman, refers to the gross mistakes of Blair and Bush with great generosity. He would have been perfectly in his rights to have called them 'two completely risible, egotistic clowns who have set back the cause of human evolution by many decades'… - but he diplomatically pulled his punches.

Would that the USA or Britain had Gorby as their leader, the world would be a safer place than it is today…

The actions of the Bush gang have made it clear why so many like-minded US elites hurled such vitriol at the hated Soviet Union for so long -- the Soviets prevented the plunder of that precious, lovely, beautiful black fluid under the ground, that black gold that Bush and his confederates have dreamt of and longed for during all these long years. But now the locals, the non-European, non-Christian g-d-n locals are getting in the way. Can't a good moral civilized English-speaking corporate predator ever catch a break and satisfy his cravings?

DO YOU CARE? To all those that are distressed by the current state of US foreign affairs - let us remind ourselves that the largest creditor to the USA is the PRIVATE and non-transparent central bank, the Federal Reserve. War is not possible w/o borrowing money from them first. Even though laws must be passed by Congress and the Prez to borrow funds, if the Fed, as our sole creditor, didn't readily allow the US to borrow even more money beyond what we already owe ($8.6 trillion) to 'promote democracy' abroad no matter what the cost, then we wouldn't be in this war crisis in the first place. A rising US debt from war is a blessing more to the Federal Reserve than to any other multinational company such as Halliburton. The higher the debt, the more profit to be made by the Fed from debt servicing. Remember, it is very rare that any country can afford to go to war without borrowing. The Fed currently receives $400 billion in interest payments a year on the US debt from taxes collected - that is far more income than any other private corporation, and the majority of that is profit - that makes them the most profitable company in the world - a fact often overlooked and unpublished by corporate media. History records that money lenders, such as the Rothschilds of Europe, have been involved in the provokation of wars to increase government debt in order to leverage their lending power over those governments and their policy makers, such as the situation the US is in right now with it's multinational creditors which own the Fed. These international bankers have no loyalty to sovereign nations - we are only kidding ourselves if we believe that. $400 billion a year can buy alot of influence and corruption if it goes unchecked - as it does. This is why our partisan government has no power to change the current direction of war. Overt war is the obvious means for taking control of a country, but financial warfare is commonly overlooked as being able to achieve the same goal - using credit and bribery as leverage for political control. This power is no different than your bank's power to make sure you are employed and working all year round for the next 30 years in order to pay off your mortgage - there is no easy escape - unless you sellout. The borrower IS servant to the lender - and that is Washington DCs biggest dirty little secret. Washington is servant to the Fed. The private Fed has more control than you could possibly imagine. And the undisclosed domestic and foreign stockholders of it represent a force of internationalists with world-molding totalitarian policies that are taking more effect everyday - they are that 'tiny clique' that Erasmus speaks of. The money power behind the Fed ownership has more lobbying power over government than any PAC. Watch the documentary Money Masters on video.google.com for a critical yet thorough review of history going back to Roman times and understand how unscrupulous bankers for the last 2000 years have manipulated governments and their populations by controlling the supply of money and lending, using all possible means of deceit. It remains far worse a situation than you might possibly think - and this secret will not reveal itself to the voting masses. However, it remains an open conspiracy that can be researched but you have to dig for it. The elite participants are not afraid to carry out their agenda on the world by wielding their power w/i our most prominent thinks tanks in the US that have direct influence over the Executive Branch - this is reality. Look into the Council of Foreign Relations and their Foreign Affairs mag and you'll have the US foreign affairs playbook before it becomes history. It might not seem possible that such a money power group could have such inhumane intentions, but if you understood how this same elite group, and the ancient religion they share, has been persecuted more than any other religion and pushed out of one country after another for the last 2000 years, it won't be a mystery as to why the policies they advocate in the US government pit Christianity vs. Islam in modern wars - not only because it weakens their own long time enemies but because it's also profitable to finance both sides at war. For them religion is just a tool for manipulation, yet the end goal has always been about money and power - follow the money trail to the very top of the chain and you'll find your bad guys - the international banking elite - aka world financial oligarchy. They are real, they are aligned and most powerful, and THEY are the ultimate influence in turning the USA into a corporate fascist wasteland, as well as the EU. At the highest level, they are also the group behind the manufactured pretexts for war in the Middle East as well as World Wars. In todays' modern world ruled by finance, debt is the greatest weakness, and credit is king, and the US is now the largest debtor nation.

There is only one solution to this perpetual public debt problem in the US - and to eliminating the corrupt government officials that deceive the masses and sell us war - monetary reform. The People must abolish the Federal Reserve and it's debt-based money - abolish fractional reserve banking - abolish the IRS - and replace with a transparent public central bank, a publicly administered taxing authority and create debt-free money, respectively. Because Federal Reserve bank notes are debt-money, it IS impossible to pay off the US debt without eliminating the money supply. Think about that and how ridiculous a concept that is yet it is FACT since 1913 - educate yourself on the history of banking and how it has been the most pivotal subject within our government debates since the American Revolution, and how it still should be to this day. The US financial system, starting with the private central bank, is the ROOT cause of the fascist state the US has become. The sovereignty of the USA and the values instilled by the Constitution will continue to be eroded by high-ranking puppets of this financial elite until the US is just a unit within another continental bloc of countries, such as the European Union has become and the North American Union is soon to be. This is real. It's not about Republicans vs. Democrats - dual party politics are irrelevant and only lead to confusion as to where the real power centers are. Currently, only the Libertarian party seems to care about these monetary issues and has made them part of their platform. The USA must attain monetary reform above all. The Iraq war is just a consequence of the current corrupt financial system. You CAN help to do something about it. Share this information with others who care. Discuss it. We are already so close to the point of no return for the US and our original government idealogy. We have the knowledge to isolate the problem and undo the harm - but everybody has to know the truth and act upon it - or we'll never be free again.

For all of its mistakes, the US does not match Russia's apparent disregard for human life. The Stalin era mass murders, the Gulag..we're not that bad. However, the point is, they are becoming better and we are becoming much, much worse.
I usually focus on George's two biggest failures: environmental destruction and Iraq. But #3 is still huge--his anti-diplomacy. George has been busy destroying our relations with just about everyone.

USSR or US: good, bad, worse, or worst?

all debatable, but now that the USSR is no more, the naked, predatory nature of capitalism, driven by the US, is being exposed, once again. The USSR falls, and BAM! how many wars does the US immediately engage in?

The Soviet Union collapsed because it went bankrupt from war expendidtures, and the USA may collapse for the same reason - unless the American people force the Congress to impeach those two madmen in the White House before it's too late. The debt clock is ticking.

Bush, the son, has made it evident what Bush, the father, meant by the "New World Order" that would arise after the fall of the Soviet Union. He clearly meant that the US and UK would use military force in this new order to take any resources their elites desired anyplace on the globe and woe be to them who stand in the way.

I find it amazing that Bush is so oblivious to how he continually demonstrates the value of Marx's theories.

Re: The below request for the detailed comparison from Ronald White June 3rd, 2007 6:25 pm can be found here: http://www.machiventa.org/IW/iWitness-News-2007-02-23-Feature-Article.htm (copy and past in new tab)

"Trust me I'm not rationalizing the "most evil empire"but when you make a broad , bold statement like that , be prepared to verify it with a detailed comparison using the following criteria

1. Duration of empire

2. Number of foreign countries invaded and occupied

3. Total number of people killed , both occupying forces and occupied ,in order to sustain the empire.

Next , compare those numbers with those indicative of the formerly-independent societies that were swallowed up by the empire.

Next , now that you have the figures for the Russian Empire , pre-Czar and post-Czar repaeat the same procedure for the Assyrian , Greek , Roman , Holy Roman , Mongol , British , Spanish , French , German , Japanese , American…; that's a good start.

When an objective analysis of those figures proves that Gorby deserves your epithet and that all present empires accecpt the "most evil" is in the process of ameliorating the plights they foisted upon their respective occupieds then you can justifiably start casting stones.

A reciprocative challenge goes out to Gorby.