No one has stated the obvious: that if the entire war was a fabrication and most "prisoners" caught in a drift net operation, WHAT could they possibly have TO tell if tortured into "the telling"? And now... four years later, hardly endowed with computers or cell phones, what could they possibly know that would be of relevance to US security, or any other nation's for that matter? Just as Michael Moore called Bush a fictitious president initiating a fictitious (basis for) war, the majority of those kept in prisons know nothing; and most of all there IS nothing to know, or that can be known to them given their being cut off from their own societies this long. Many indeed drift into madness from the inhuman conditions. It's all smoke and mirrors, an expensive show devised to keep a raison d'etre for the military industrial complex to keep spewing weapons and charging US tax payers for the privilege. Alas, the karma will come round.

The last time I witnessed such bold entreaties by a gaggle of similarly shameless whores was on the back streets of Bankok.

The fallacy here is that the question is entirely artificial. Suppose you asked the GOP candidates one of the following questions instead:

You have a terrorist who knows the plans for the next terrorist attack, one that will kill hundreds or thousands more Americans. He is willing to tell you where it is provided you give him something in return:

1) He wants to legally marry his gay lover.
2) He wants a night of fantastic sex with your daughter.
3) He wants a third-trimester abortion for his mistress.
4) He wants YOU to have a night of fantastic sex with your daughter.
5) He wants to legally marry your golden retriever.

Come on, Republicans, step up to the plate to save a thousand American citizens! Rudy, you can go first.

After that, we'll ask the Democrats whether under the same circumstances they would repeal the Brady Law, privatize Social Security, enforce the Beck Decision, and offer universal education vouchers.

>We once had JFK telling us that we would go to the moon and "do the other thing", not because it was easy, but BECAUSE it was hard.

We went to the moon because people were scared shitless about Soviet dominance in space. It was a pissing contest between us and the Russians. JFK mentions "we intend to win" in the full quote you take that line from. But, ok, off topic... I digress.

I was particularly struck by Gov. Romney's "double Guantanamo" boast. Surely, even if you only knew what any average citizen knew about Guantanamo prison, you would understand that it is deeply engaged in illegal and inhumane activities as a matter of policy. Either Romney is seriously uninformed (disqualifying him as a candidate), posturely hypocritically to position himself further rightward into a position that is morally indefensible (disqualifying him), or he means it, making him a monster (disqualifying him).

Anyway you interpret his outburst, he has shown himself unworthy of the office to which he aspires.

Empathy and Compassion are qualites seemingly missed by very nearly 50% of Americans. These people tend to be called robbers, thieves, murderers, rapists and republicans. (Nice they even have their own organisation, eh?) To them, the rest of us have no more value than bugs, other than whatever they can extract from us for their own gain. And yes, I am ready for a revolution.

"Revolution is the Solution"

Yes,but isn't this the process going on now and isn't it a fascist revolution?

Revolution is the Solution

The GOP needs to be non-existent. They do nothing but cause grief and misery for most human beings worldwide not just in the United States. The wage war based on lies and greed on, oddly enough, the ones who invented agriculture, on the origins of human civilization in the known ancient world - and dare to call themselves "good." Hardly. The GOP is far from being good. After all, according to Christianity - the GOP's favorite religion - the love of money is the root of all evil. Perhaps the GOP is unable to face reality and their inevitable defeat as well as their tendency toward evil actions? Yes that would a more plausible description of the GOP than being "good." Indeed, ALL GOP members have this inherent trait.

Never (mis)underestimate the GOP in falsifying everything they touch. They honestly believe that death means life, war means peace, oil is better than blood, to lie is to be truthful, torturing people is showing compassion for them, and that fetuses are more important than any human being alive.

I have been ashamed of my country for some time. I am afraid of the insanity that is taking hold in this land like some ancient curse whose time is come. If I could leave I would.

Does any one of these idiots really believe torture will solve the ticking bomb scenario? They seem to have forgotten that 19 men were so dedicated to their beliefs that they flew airplanes into buildings. They seem to have forgotten that every day dedicated people blow themselves up to advance their cause, save their country, or take revenge. Given 24 hours, or whatever, these guys will take everything you give them, spit in your face, and lie to you to put you on a false trail until the bomb goes off. But, as evidenced by the macho posturing of these pompous Republican assholes and the applause of their mindless and just plain stupid audience, it's obvious that Republicans follow the lead of the Bush gang of sociopaths and choose to live in fantasyland, where real problems and real solutions and critical reasoning are never allowed to go.

bwoodward: Vote for Ron Paul then you can spend the next 4 years whining about the 'nut job' in the White House. Anyone who ran Liberatian is to far out in space for me. I checked into them several years ago just to see what their policies are. They are more fascist than Republican's. That going some.

Regarding WJM's post, sorry to break this to you, but Gravel is the only Democrat who isn't spouting the same garbage as the Republican candidates you allude to.

Watching the Republican debates has been excruciating due to the clownish behavior of the moderators and nine of the candidates. Only Ron Paul has been willing to speak the truth about our disastrous foreign policy. Obama and Hillary Clinton don't want to change it- in fact, they are often positioning themselves as more hawkish than Dubya. Each claiming that "no options are off the table" with respect to Iran.

Talk about bankrupting the nation, should Clinton or Obama win, the foreign policy stays the same AND we adopt socialized medicine. Six months after the Democrats gained controlled of the Congress we still have war criminals in the White House, a burgeoning police state that has in place the ability to declare a citizen a terrorist and detain him indefinitely, without right to trial or counsel- and you are fretting about the destruction of the middle class?

Our very survival as a nation is at stake due to our imperial foreign policy and Americans willingness to buy their own chains in the impossible goal of being "safe."

Dr. Paul is the only candidate that isn't owned by the defense industry- he's never taken a government paid junket, voted "no" on the Iraq war resolution and would never suggest controls on the internet (unlike candidate Clinton- who wants filters or "gatekeeper functions" or some such nonsense).

It's not about voting for an "R" or "D" who have proven to be virtual clones, arguing only over how the spoils will be divided. Obviously Dr. Paul, who ran as a Libertarian in the 80s, is a "republican in name only" who is facing all matter of threats from within the party structure. They don't want him because his is willing to tell the truth. The hurdles for any "3rd party" (one could rightly say "2nd party") are insurmountable (not the least of which is no ability to debate any Rep. or Dem. candidate).

I note, as I type, this is a "progressive" site (linked to from anti.war) so this post may not survive for long. But please, consider that issues dear to your heart certainly won't matter much if the nation stays on its current course. Regaining lost civil liberties and restoring the Republic must be accomplished and Dr. Paul is the only candidate willing to reign in the enemies from within.

To koalaburger, and like minded:

It amazes me that people haven't figured out that USA is one of the prominent users of torture. It also amazes me that people haven't figured out that USA is one of the prominent promoters of totalitarianism, fascism, corporatism, and many other things. Being a normal human being I think this is a sad state of affairs for a country which has made its place in history as both the first to throw off imperial rule and the first to establish a rational democraticly elected government.

To play an overly played, but appropriate for the circumstances tune: I can imagine a Nazi talking about how they got great benefit by electrocuting dissidents. If you are too historically challenged to understand this reference fully, understand that the German population was propagandized into war by the xenophobic, false-populist rhetoric of the leadership. If you still don't get it, please don't vote and stop watching Fox.

For the rest of you, shame on you for not differentiating Ron Paul fromt his list. He is basically the only candidate in this election who is not a fascist, with the possible exception of Gravel. You can make fun of fascist republicans just fine, but please, can you present a solution that doesn't involve trusting a quasi-fascist demopublican to actually honor a campaign promise?

Scott

The next time osmeone says the words "our US democracy is an open and fair society", laugh in their face. We are THE evil empire. Fox is not news, Hume is not a moderator, this was proproganda labeled as a debate. Nothing will stop the 28% from voting repewcklican. But unitl we vote by mail they will continue to win. 1984 was 13 yrs. ago, and the supreme leader still rules. The Nazi gas chambers now are US arms industry.

Something these incompetent wannabe Nazis don't seem to realize is that torture does not produce reliable answers. The inmate will tell you what you want to hear and not what you should hear. But these incompetent Nazis enjoy torture, and all the things they miss from the Hitler's regime....Hypocritical bastards are what these folks are.

It amazes me that people don't realize that Americans have always used torture. I know a guy who served with the CIA in Vietnam and he said they would take 3 VC up in a helicopter. You threw the first and second one out at 1000 feet for not talking. You then had to throw the third one out to shut him up. He roared laughing at the joke.

jerrys' comment "those who wildly cheered and applauded the "torture mongers" vs. the dead silent response to Sen. McCain's reasoning" is, to me, the truly frightening issue. As much as Bush/Cheney/et al scare me, it is the millions who voted for them and those who continue to support them that is most scary. None of these individuals are a threat until to you recognize that there are so many who cheer them on and who have a vote that counts as much as anybody else's. They have taught us that we are never very far from Fascism's grip.

the biggest assumption is that routine torture works. torture can also be counterproductive, in that it can actually provice a myriad of misinformation which diverts our intelligence and strategic ability away from an iminent terrorist attack.

Moreover, nothing has ever proven that torturing prisoners is more effective than typical interrogation within the confines of the geneva conventions, international law, and basic human decency.

Additionally torture can, and has been used, DELIBERATLY to force people into giving false information and lies under physical coercion in order to fit an agenda of the bidding torturer and administration. Then the torturer and administration can maniachally use such misinformation as evidence that either torture works, but maybe more importantly, that there are other drastic implications, such as the war in iraq.

I was raised to beleive that America was better than the rest, that we were a beacon of human rights, humanity, and freedom. It is disheartening to see Bush, and many GOP members irresponsibly trashing some of the great and admirable characateristics of America. The question is why do they want to lower the American government to the level of of despots and tyrants. Why do they hate basic and noble American principles that have stood fast for over 200 years?

"The present American paranoia caused by a false-flag operation in 2001 shows how we can still be manipulated through FEAR to do the most despicable actions . In Pinochet's Chile post 09/11/1973 ,CIA agents taught the Chileans how to use electric shocks to the gums or the genitals to torture."

September 11

A moment of silence for the 30,000 dead and missing and also their President Salvador Allende Gossens (26 luglio 1908 – 11 settembre 1973.)

Americans could learn to sympathize and empathize with those whose families were killed, maimed and missing through the actions and guidance of their government.

Just once it would be nice for the Americans to ask for forgiveness for their dealings.

The last four centuries of Western barbarism towards the rest of the world cannot be called civilization.. The present American paranoia caused by a false-flag operation in 2001 shows how we can still be manipulated through FEAR to do the most despicable actions . In Pinochet's Chile post 09/11/1973 ,CIA agents taught the Chileans how to use electric shocks to the gums or the genitals to torture.
And all this is ALWAYS done in the name of God. Frankly he must be totally disgsted with us at this point and maybe we would do the planet a favor to blow ourselves us.
Buddhists are more honest to deny a God and seek to eradicate anger and fear.Now that is civilisation , one that is not even puritan.Americans need to understand action-reaction in the world. What goes around comes around.

The strange thing about this enthusiasm for brutal interrogation techniques in these cherry-picked, apocalyptic scenarios is that the the prisoner's lies and stonewalling are far more effective when the clock is ticking down. Time is not on the side of the authorities, and the more confidence the interrogators have in the ability of brutal techniques to wring the truth out of the prisoner, the more likely they are to buy into the lies of the prisoner and waste precious time running down phony leads. After all, if they had enough information to verify the accuracy of the prisoner's coerced statements during the interrogation sessions, they probably wouldn't need such big answers in the first place. The interrogators would have no choice but to resort to increasingly sinister torture teachniques, and even then the prisoner has every incentive-with time on his side-to spin yet another phony, time consuming tale. Sure, torture works great on tv and in the movies, but then again so does taking on supervillains with a gun and a clever quip. Real life is not so accommodating. The only thing torture is really good at is getting people to confess to falsehoods in order to make their torment end (see Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, etc.)

It's bad enough to slip to such depraved levels as a society; it's worse to do so for almost certainly no gain.

the juxtaposition of those who wildly cheered and applauded the "torture mongers" vs. the dead silent response to Sen. McCain's reasoning will forever send chills down my spine. These people scare the hell out of me.

Why do we put up with this behavior?

Don't we aspire to be better human beings?

It is about how we play the game and not whether we win or lose.

We have come so far in just my lifetime, and it's just pathetic. We once had JFK telling us that we would go to the moon and "do the other thing", not because it was easy, but BECAUSE it was hard. He said we should ask not what our country can do for us, but what we can do for our country. We had a forward thinking president who did more to help the rest of the world as well in his short presidential time that W has done in his entire freaking life.

A generation before, we had FDR saying that we had nothing to fear but fear itself, and that was in the darkest days of modern existence, WWII.

Now we have these mental midget republicans whose whole goal is to instill as MUCH fear as possible. We have a president who has started a war on COURAGE, and telling everyone to be afraid and go shopping. We have a whole cropful of republican candidates whose whole platform is to fear and to give in to it so you can justify the most UNAMERICAN things in our name. These guys are more than willing to destroy our country to save our country. And they think they aren't Reaganesque enough? It was Reagan who bankrupted us to the tune of 3 TRILLION DOLLARS the first time and turned us against ourselves in ways not seen since the Civil War. It was Reagan who started this whole war on the middle class, and they are doing everything they can to surpass the damage HE did.

This is one of the most shameful things I've ever seen in my life, and I am even more ashamed to know that it was a congressman from MY state of Colorado, Tancredo, who said one of the most foolish things of the evening. For the record, I do NOT live in his district, or I would be out campaigning against him even today.

Want MORE FEAR? Vote for a republican. They are determined to keep playing divide and conquer with your life, and they will do so. OR you can listen to the words of the last decent republican, Ike Eisenhower, who told us to BEWARE of those like this, who would try to make your fear the most important thing in your life so they could steal it from you. Too bad the nation wasn't smart enough to listen to him then, maybe if his words are played every day to us, we will finally hear them now.

There is no greater pleasure id derive than waterboarding this pathetic bunch and letting all the skeletons fall out of their closets !

If "we go under, Western civilization goes under." And what's a little torture when Western civilization itself is at stake?
All of western civilization goes under, is at stake!
The Gop is the drunk uncle at a bad family reunion.
The schoolyard bully struggling in the remedial class.
Sooner or later we all sit back, we shake our heads.
The GOP is nothing more than a bad infection. Real western civilization's with "universal healthcare" treat it with free antibiotics and reminder "cover your mouth when you cough". The rest of us don't want what you have!

Giuliani's best answer would have been that he would personally fly to the site, put on his lipstick and dress, and threaten to tongue kiss any "terrorist" who does not tell all. Now that would work if anything would.

They don't even realize how far beyond the normal bounds of human decency they've drifted. They must be thinking inside a very small box, a VERY exclusive country club, etc.

Now does that sound like an open/transparent democracy or something else?

We just need to admit that the whole world is being attacked by the republican party, white supremacists, blackwater, etc. they are the " terrorists " ( a projection word ). the world's job is to get them all in a nuremberg setting asap, and out of the way of simple, peaceful progress. a smart second grader can see that.

Is it me or did Mr. Hume's question make a mockery of its own assumptions? "a fourth attack has been averted when the attackers were captured … and taken to Guantanamo…. U.S. intelligence believes that another, larger attack is planned."

If we're so worried about another attack that we are prepared to torture and even kill, why are we wasting time taking people to Guantanamo? Surely the few hours after capture are critical? If harsh interrogation is necessary (and it never is, kids, take it from a survivor of the Cold War),why are we flying anybody to Cuba before committing acts of barbarism?

These bozos can't even think straight when they get to make up stuff.

These right-wing corporatists are the greatest threat to western civilization. We should all be tired of tortured logic, a tortured constitution and the bloody trail of thier crimes.