continuing, pangolin...

and god embraced the essence of each student and each teacher and cho back, grateful for what they brought

and god exhaulted over each of their joys, and anguished over each of their sufferings, for they are the same, necessary, and never lost, not ever, not one whit, not one tittle

and god frowned over the beginning and smiled at the ending, for they are the same

God is mentioned a lot in this thread, but not the opposite.

Where was Old Nick at VT? Seems that if the religous want to prove the existence of God, it may be easier to prove the existence of His nemesis first.

If someone could prove GWB (or any other God-fearing, pious leader) is actually the spawn of Satan, I might take up worship too.

OK Report from Blacksburg/VT. Where was God? Waiting in the hearts of thousands of people to try to make a difference in this community as soon as the tragedy happened; in the hands that have reached out to help; in the eyes of those store clerks in town who hadn't looked into your eyes as they gave you your change until after the shootings. In the arms of those who hugged you to share comfort, when they had not before. This was an exceptional town and university community before the shootings; it feels more so, not.

And that said we do need to have stricter controls on access to firearms; we do need to have more access to compassionate mental health services; we do need to teach all our children to treat each other gently; we do need to not allow the media to herd us all into a mentality that makes it such a huge thing that 32 US college students died on one day, while practically overlooking the 167 killed by car bombs in Irq the day after due to our excesses. Things have to change radically.

Wow. Given that this is a polarity planet, reason CAN coexist with faith; the problem (and it makes me sad) in much of this thread is how many confuse GOD with religion, religion based on supposition, metaphor (i.e. Biblical accounts) and devices planned to control the population. Let us not forget that up until relatively recently in RECORDED history (fossil remains suggest THOUSANDS of years unaccounted for as per these records) church was state, there WAS no separation. The inculcation of beliefs as state policy on threat of death has done wonders to hold minds hostage. What saddens me is that people (too many) who are progressive and thankfully care about their fellow mankind still continue to hold some of the most primitive beliefs as sacrosanct. Linear thinking looks at direct cause-effect relationships. Suppose it's more circular, that multiple factors act together so that in concert--a form of a majority vote from higher forces--events come down. MANY spiritual teachers have taught the relationship between dramatic weather events and what people do. Some authors to look into: Yogananda, Sun Bear, Mary Summer Rain, Ruth Montgomery, and Edgar Cayce. To suggest that god is a man, a he, a finite entity is just unbelievable... first of all, it discounts the DIVINE feminine. Creation is writ in a holy language, it is a LANGUAGE a blueprint, a biological dance of continity based on the perpetual reach of yin for yang. As for gay individuals, the SOUL is largely without gender, and those who believe in reincarnation realize we can build up a heritage identifying with one gender, and then require a greater sense of balance. That is, the "male" who believes he's born in the wrong body is being given an opportunity to work with the other gender. Just as time share resorts allow individuals to return on an annual basis, thus it makes sense to keep up the place; if we understood the soul continuity, that each sojourn is a PRODUCT of where the soul in prior experiences has left off... then maybe we'd treat each other with decency, and take better care of earth, i.e. our collective timeshare vacation zone! To those who are bonded to religion, religion has in many istances moved away from God, promoted false teachings, turned tribe on tribe, and TAUGHT hate through rules based on excluding members. These are all human fictions dressed up (the way Bush and Rove do PR) behing religion. KILLING millions accused of heresy was ONE way to ensure that no one question the "authority" of the church. How about the charade with Gallileo? Wasn't that enough to wake up thinkers? I mean the church would have preferred to execute the scientist, or ruin his reputation than admit its entire cosmology was wrong... this is NOT an earth centered universe/solar system? Those who held to old religious beliefs on threat of death believed in a flat earth. Human wisdom and consciousness is in an endless process of expansion, thwarted by the adherence to these old beliefs... what I term minds held hostage to old gods. The Greeks understood the heavens speak in a multiplicity of "voices" and termed these gods and goddesses. It makes sense for several reasons, first, it gives spiritual legitimacy to more than one point of view, as in authoritarian as in dictator as in unitary executive. And it also allows to realize the many facets or expressions of Divinity, however, the catch 22 or cosmic koan implicit to this exercise (of consciousness within the limitations of a finite body, in societies that do what they can to conform members to established beliefs and significantly punish/ostracize sometimes murder those who do not or will noit) is that we can only know GOD-Dess at the level of our own awareness. This discussion is therefore the mirror of that projection. The heavens when taken as a circle of archetypal references presents a true model of democracy... because right there is a lumious role model that goes way beyond the appalling Dr. Phil programmers who are utterly convinced that people are robotic clones, all expected to live, feel, act, decide, think etc alike DISGUSTING! An insult to the glorious creation... look at cloning and bio-engineering... how it forces together what the Great Mother nature never intended? SHE took from her laboratories, ecosystems beyond measure, beauty beyond description... the greatest pools of possibility to braid the chains of life together like the finest weaver. Why is nature breaking down? Perhaps the legend of Atlantis holds the clue... all this genetic tinkering, even the bees could care less about the tainted honey. And when these elementals say sayanara, capitalism and all isms break down. Destroying the web of life by not respecting the DIVNITY that imbues all creation, every atom is the great sin. Once that atom was split: note the metaphor, A-dam, the weave of creation began to come asunder. At the onset of this new millennium mankind faced a test... most empowered by the leader of the free world to set the example for where this rich and blessed nation would place its values, i.e. what it would invest in. When you note the scale to which militarism and the wonton destruction of a people, the reckless disregard for environmental restraints (oil, fossil fuels, global warming etc)... you see to what degree the belief in a so-called god, a construct most suitable to MARS has cost us and will cost us; for the momentum created by egregious ill conceived action IS coming back around. If every American paid penance in prayer to the great SPIRIT and gave things away, gave back to all the nations our nation has stolen from with military as its extortion force, MAYBE we could offset the blowback. When religion (Bush's support) has the audacity to claim the right to kill, torture and terrorize, then it bears asking what GOD exactly are you referring to that you purport to conduct such barbarity in his name. It's Mars, friends... ain't got nothing to do with Jesus, or any MASTER. The masters generally agree... fascinating, illuminating reading: Wisdom and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East by Baird Spalding. If mankind is to survive, it cannot maintain the belief systems fostered on ism divisions, the fact that weaponry has advanced far more than consciousness is a lethal combination. There is the great call for a spiritual paradigm shift and it revolves around MANY voices, working together, not any ONE size fits all notion of a god. We have outgrown the religious perception of God, it's time for mankind to grow into a higher realization of our kinship with cosmic forces, our innate ONENESS with all aspects of Creation. Focus has been on force, competition, violence, punishment for centuries... these "Sins" have compounded on each other, leading to a redundancy loop. Please, don't blame God when humans inverted all Divine qualities to suit their own egos, and let the bullies "hold" the title. And last, a recent article on this site focused on a babaoon society thought to be unerringly macho in its hierarchical structure; but when the dominant males ate first (as is the custom), they died off (due to tainted food), and friends, a very different social engagement, as in babboon society was thus born. Let us not limit possibility, or fall for the notion that religion has answered the age old questions, the great mysteries of life in a body.

The evolutionary energies of "God" work through all those who are doing good things for the good of the environment and/or humanity (regardless of their beliefs). "Godness" is "Goodness".

It's NOT about religion, it's about peace, justice, and cooperation.

We're all one. We're all members of one huge family. Injustice anywhere has an adverse effect on ALL us.

The opposite energies of involution (forces of destruction, chaos, ugliness) work through all the neanderthalithic fools who are taking backwards steps - back towards the stoneage.

The warmongers in the white house and pentagon are literally menaces to mankind. They all need to be thrown the hell out of power.

Seems that all people with some social/political awareness & goodwill can agree with that, regardless of whether or not they believe in "God". Surely we all agree upon the power of "goodness" working through people who are fighting for social/political justice.

My problem with "My People" is that there are "Chosen People". Why is that? It's hard enought to deal with the fact that I'm not my Mother's favorite :) Are the people who penned the Bible the ones to say they are God's favorite? Did they just put that in?

"If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and will heal their land." - 2 Chronicles 7:14

Thank you, thank you, thank you. May God bless you and all who read this piece.

If the Americans purporting to believe in'god' would really follow biblical teachings, they would have embraced Cho instead of ostracizing him, driving him into his dungeon of madness that drove him to commit his horrid acts. Instead, they are the first to condemn the boy :(

Two things: First, I don't know why the question "how can I believe in God..?" has anything to do with the Virginia Tech massacre, except to those already in the midst of a religious crisis. Second, even granting the legitimacy of the question, one would be hard put to find a convincing argument answering it anywhere in the subsequent text. Telling us to buck up, don't give up, come together to create a new world, are all lovely and useful sentiments, but biological imperatives urge them quite as forcefully as moral or religious ones.

I fail to see, also, how calling Cho insane -- which he clearly was -- involves one in a process of denial. As he had been hospitalized involuntarily as a "danger to himself or others," surely advocating from the knowledge of his insanity for a strict regime of background checks that would keep guns out of the hands of those with similar mental health problems is not a form of despair or denial. Or is this word policing, where "insane" is deemed impolite, even though it points to large scale, observable, public truths.

The rush these days to drag God or -- worse -- religion into every public forum bodes ill for our democracy built -- despite what the religious right wrongfully assumes -- on secular, enlightenment values. Hilary and Obama may enjoy wearing their faith on their sleeves; perhaps it makes them feel like good, upstanding parts of the believing majority. It does nothing to further human understanding or reduce misery in the world, too often the direct result of religious fanaticism. Why this article even appeared on Common Dreams -- a progressive POLITICAL site as far as I understood-- is beyond me.

Politically, Virginia Tech ought to make us question public policy on guns; politically, it has nothing to do with God. God is in his heaven; everything is decided NOT all right with the world, and it's up to us to fix it, not by sublimating our anger but by taking the energy it generates into direct public action. Why should we not be angry when the Brady Laws, no longer in force, might well have stopped this young man?

It is condescending in the extreme to talk of people who "go on with their lives without thought or reflection" in the face an event of this kind. Who are they? Not, as far as those that I know, people who, not having a Teddy Bear god to hug themselves to sleep at night, have to actually DO something: write to their representative, or newspaper. I love long walks, and take one daily with my dog. It's for me; it's for my dog; it's our time. It will not, however, change the world, no matter how many nice thoughts I have during my reflections.

If to terrorism or mass killing all progressives can offer is "coming together to transform our communities", we should all expect the right wing loons to keep winning public office. Facing the Taliban and Al-Qaeda in Afghanistan we should have hunted them down and utterly destroyed them instead of getting into the very foreseeable (and foreseen) mess in Iraq. That the administration, full of religious fervor, failed to accomplish that could well result in a Taliban-like regime controlling Pakistans nuclear weapons. Squishy feel-goodism is not going to unburden us of Sunni fanaticism.

Our neighborhoods need transforming, but it will take more than a virtuous private affect to accomplish that; it will take public action and a renewal in public policy toward the needs of ordinary citizens. The psychologization of the progressive left (see The Human Condition of Hannah Arendt) has left it increasingly ineffective for several decades now. The public realm is about action that can be taken together, about policy; it has nothing to do with and nothing to say to private feelings or private faith. Those things may determine where we stand on an issue; they are not the issue itself and should interest no one but a psychological voyeur.

Let's leave God out of public debate. The history of his inclusion therein is drenched in blood. Those interested in the problem of evil under a good god might want to read Voltaire's poem on the Lisbon earthquake of 1755. Here are four lines, translated (sorry) by me;

"Of the whole I am but a meager part,
True, but the animals, condemned from the start,
All sentient beings, born beneath the same decree,
Live in suffering and die, alike, like me."

We don't need theology to tell us that human suffering must move us to compassion to be useful. Of itself, suffering is random and banal. Making it narcissistically meaningful affords us consolation, but unless that moves into the world through increased compassion, the world experiences none of its saving potential. It is we who are in the response, at least as much of it as it is given to humankind to see.

ipenek - as usual, I agree. But it's an interesting question why most species seem to want a leader, an Alpha Male (or Female, in the case of many insects, like bees or ants). We're an hierarchal primate species, and all primate species have leaders, and we seem to need one too. An Alpha Male, usually. In fact we seem to need many leaders, from local mayors all the way up to president/king/dictator etc. and then onward and upward to a god. Some of these are purely practical arrangements, like mayors, but even they can grab too much power and assert their divine right to tell others what to do.

The "Follow the Leader" game seems to be instinctive for the insects and other "lower" species, but with us it's apparently by our "free will." Or we like to think so. But the existentialists are right - it's downright scary to find ourselves alone in the universe.

Basically, we seem to need someone to be in charge. And you can't find anyone higher than some supernatural figure who actually created the whole universe, including us and our little planet. This is a Daddy thing, and most people seem to still need the comfort of having a Daddy in charge. And perhaps if they need it - well, perhaps they do.

People are allowed to believe what they will. The problem comes when some feel they should dictate what others MUST believe. Atheists are not the ones trying to force their views on me. I've yet to have one witness to me or knock on my door at dinner time.

Yeah, I believe in God, but not a God that would discriminate and that's what so many religions seem to encourage you to do. You'll never get to heaven, unless you believe like… I'm not offended by non-believers. Why shouldn't they be entitled to think of God as fancy? Why shouldn't they be able to use the brain that God gave them to think and come up with their own ideas. God did give them that brain, did he not? Faith doesn't explain anything. Faith can sometimes be used to stop critical thinking. If your God can't measure up to scrutiny then there's a problem. Heck I can even read the Davinci code and not lose a thing. Even though one of Christian co-worker tried to warn me about it being evil and his fear that it might shake my faith. How can that faith be shaken, when for me God is in every plant, rock, tree, the earth, the wind. She's not doling out goodies like Santa Claus. In my view God is a connection to everything, everyone.

@ghostbuster

The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

@eladysmith
Yes that's a nice piece of imagery, it does break the metaphor but it is true that all is in a state of flux, we all have twelve molecules of Sir Isaac Newton in us! Indeed, our physical form is more transitory than we sense, because every seven years every single atom and molecule that we consist of has been replaced. Some bits change in front of our eyes (flakes of skin falling off) while the longest to change are the bones, but if you and I were blogging each other on May 8th 2014 physically we would both be completely different people (unless a few molecules had been out and come back in again) even if we didn't realise it.
And what exactly are those atoms and molecules? At CERN they break them open and inside are tiny little flashes of energy which spark for a billionth of a second and are gone, Whether it be diamond or granite, it's all just tiny little sparks of energy, resonating at a certain frequency. Of the twenty-seven sub-atomic particles theorised, twenty-six have been identified at CERN, but the Higgs Boson, the twenty-seventh remains elusive. As the other twenty-six have no mass, Higgs Boson must logically contain the mass so let's hope those eggheads find it soon because one suspects some fundamentals will be revealed at that time. In the meanwhile, if you would like to blow your mind, you do realise that it appears to be scientifically provable that the Universe is just a hologram. Google 'The Holographic Paradigm' and prepare to be boggled...

ceecee_em --
I'll acknowledge you have a point. People have a right to believe without persecution, or thought police intrusion as long as those beliefs don't harm others. The problem is that religious beliefs, in general, are not in that category, as I think modern history demonstrates. Your specific beliefs are I'm sure an exception to that, but truthfully, can you blame others from getting heated in this discussion?

Also, there's an analogy here with a kind of Newton's Law of belief: professing a belief will always have an equal repudiation of its opposite (equal and opposite). There cannot be God and no God. So espousing belief in God will _always_ imply that nonbelievers are wrong. I guess what I'm saying is that you can't avoid offending someone somewhere along the line. :-(

If being 'left behind' means that I dont have spend boring days with boring people then by all means, leave me behind.
I dont fancy the prospect of listening to a bunch of god people all day every day, singing off key and strumming harps.
When someone makes it a point to tell me they are a christian the first thing I do is feel to make sure my wallet is still in my pocket.
We are all here by the sheerest stroke of mathmatical luck, or unluck, depending on ones point of view. When climatic conditions on our little ball change we will be replaced by some new organisim that can adapt to the new conditions. If one sees gods had at work in evolution, so be it. I dont.

lpenek,
No, I won't be turning to the right, if you mean becoming a social conservative, a neocon, or a hawk. That's not who I am or who I ever have been. I just don't understand why more than a few people who make comments on this website overall, who seem to care about other people, justice, and peace, feel the need to be condescending, and even hostile, toward people of faith for having a belief that they don't share. We need everyone of good will in the endeavor to save the planet and better the human condition. Some of the comments on this thread are no less exclusionary and hurtful to people of faith than are the "God hates fags" comments of the way-wacko fringe "Christians" to gay people and their families.

ghostbuster,
I would be happy to match my educational background, professional experience, share of life's tragedies, etc., with anyone. I am neither stupid nor gullible. Why is my belief in the guidance of God such a threat to you that you call it "witless nonsense" without even knowing me or the good works that I do?

god is Santa Claus for adults

cool river metaphor, allblue, but there is an alternative to rejoining the river... on the sunny days that produce rainbows from the water fall, some droplets vaporize in that glory to disperse into the ether, so that in ten thousand years each breath of every living thing on earth contains at least one of its molecules

yes, the river may

ceecee_em and centavo:
Sorry, but when people see witless nonsense they have a full right to critique it at full throttle. I think if you do a bit of self-analysis you'll see that it is you who are taking the offense back to your own persons. There's a little too much "shut up and put up" in both of your comments. -- Along with a subtle veiled threat of turning right if your personal beliefs go unwelcome.

God is either not all powerful and impotent or He is all powerful and malevolent--or He simply isn't.
Also, for the faithful out there, check the concept casaubon delusion--start thinking about what it is you believe in, seek out the evidence: if it fits, keep believing, if it doesn't, ask then why you believed it in the first place. Hearing voices and having funny feelings is NOT evidence anymore than it's evidence that what the psychotic hears and feels is evidences that his psychotic delusions are reality.

"We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another." - Jonathan Swift

Sublimate your anger, sadness and fear by being silent within. Meditate. Take a walk in the woods. Breathe deeply. These strategies cleanse the body and help you face the tragedy.

Are you kidding me . . . I think I'll disregard this No-Brainer and buy my own gun . . . The police cannot be there to protect you. They come after the fact when they are called. If you ask Law Enforcment they will tell you that they investigate crimes that "Have Been Committed."

I agree wholeheartedly with ceecee_em. Many progressive-thinking people ARE people of faith, and judging from the comments on this thread, they'd get no welcome here.

Great, don't believe in God. Fine, itemize the sins committed by man in the name of God (while you're at it, itemize those committed in the name of mammon, or nationalism, or empire-building; maybe man is just inherently a warmonger in search of a rationale). But don't expect to find common cause with people who'd otherwise agree with you pretty much right down the line if you also expect them to check their religious beliefs at the door. This indiscriminate disdain for all people who believe in God is just as sanctimonious (not to mention counterproductive) as that shown by the religious extremists who think only THEY have the answer.

It's possible to tell someone you disagree with them without conveying that you think they're witless and gullible. Faith is a matter of the heart, not of the intellect, and even Pascal recognized that "the heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing."

Prof Pete:

Abortion is caused by Republicans against birth control. Maybe Dems lost(?) the election because they didn't frame the issue in these terms.

For those left behind, I just do not see how they can think a tragedy has occurred if a loved one is with god. You may feel sad, but a tragedy? I don't think so.

Something unexpected happens, and it is God's "miracle" ... something terrible happens, and .... well, they say "God has given us free will."

Either way, he wins!

God allows free will. The shooter was identified as a danger, yet was allowed to buy guns by people who didn't follow the law. Students and teachers tried to get help for this tortured individual. Our laws are not effective in getting help to the delusional.

This was an evil act that was expected by some, should have been expected by others and not prevented by mental health professionals, police, and courts.

Just because God did not strike him dead with a bolt of lightening, is not evidence that God is an accessory to the crime.

After the sinking of the Titanic, laws were changed to help avoid similar disasters. Instead of blaming God, PEOPLE should demand debate of possible changes in the laws that may help prevent future shootings. If we are too stupid to examine this disaster logically and fall into the anti vs pro gun political argument. WE DOOM OURSELVES.

What I want to know is how unique the Va Tech shooting is across the cultural spectrum. What I want to know is whether deviant, violent behavior is to be expected in any human culture. What I want to know is whether other cultures, past and present, civilized and primitive, large and small, have had to deal with similar anomalies from time to time. When I know these things, I will know how to put this into perspective and advocate one response or another. If acts such as these are a cultural phenomemon, as many here have suggested, then something can be done. Otherwise, it is something we will have to live with and anticipate and not freak out over with God talk, etc.

Well, you know, for a person of faith, a person who dies does go to be with God unless he or she has made a deliberate choice not to. So, the tragedy is for those left behind who will no longer have that person's companionship and will miss them.

As for natural disasters, Earth is a place of great power. It has brought forth all kinds of living things, the diversity of which is amazing. But, natural materials go through cycles, and their change from one form to another is sometimes violent. I guess I just take the good with the bad, the violence of nature with its magnificence. I don't expect God to wave a magic wand and make things better all the time.

Fine, if you want to "excuse" God by saying we have free will but how do you explain Katrina, Oklahoma or any other "natural"disasters.

Another question about God and the nature of tragedy. Why is it that we hear after the death of a young child "what a tragedy, but she is in a better place now. God wanted her home." Then where is the tragedy?

What a zany thread this is!

So my two cents:

First, religion apparently evolved over thousands of years as a tool that could be used by the few to control the many, but also to provide group unity and cohesion. The ubiquitousness of it speaks to some utilitarian purposes. There are other utilitarian means to provide group cohesion and other means to allow for control over the many by the few, so this tool too will become outdated, and is already, for the most part, in Western postindustrial society.

Second, "free will" is a simplistic construct to model human or animal behavior. It follows from the useful but flawed construct of identity over time. Though in our common and useful though clearly simplistic models of reality, for the sake of convenience and manageability of information, we assume identity over time of individuals, of course there is no complete identity over time of a human brain. It is constantly evolving and changing, including changing during the experiences that are described as exercises of "free will." The brain merges with the energy that it encounters in its environment through its perceptions, and it responds to such inputs with its attempts at adaptive behavior. Moreover, simple determinism is clearly inadequate as the brain is part of the universe and part of the cause of what happens -- it merges with the world and does not completely submit to it. So a more complete model would have the brain as part determiner and part determined in any instant in time.

And third, consciousness is the direct experience of our brain activity as opposed to the model of our brain activity or the model of anything else we experience. That provides a very interesting form of duality, that involving (1) forming images (visual, auditory, or composed of any other element of sensation) we use to create models to navigate the world and survive -- what we typically call "thinking" and what forms the basis for our communications and memories, and (2) experiencing the feeling of forming such images, models, thoughts, and memories.

That's enough!

WHERE WAS GOD? Where was the Democratic Party when it adopted the issue that put The Bushites into office? The issue that is as rank as Torture, capital punishment, preemptive war, slander, and mass-murder.
Abortion put Bush into office and caused 1,100,000 casualties, 675,000 deaths and more. You expect God to do what you should have done 7 years ago, thirty years ago? Wake up, Norma McCovney, as I predicted that day she testified, 30 years ago, lied about being raped. Both the war and the Abortion issue were born of lies. I don't give a rat's-butt, if a fetus has a soul yet or not, or whether it is a human yet or not, it is a helpless creature to be. You are as hypocritical as the Bushites, they accept every issue of the Culture of Death except abortion, and you claim to accept every issue of the Culture of Life except abortion,
Hyp-farking-pocrisy! Everything that happened in the last seven years, The Military Commissions Act of 2006, The Patriot Act, the end of Habeas Corpus, Torture, capital punishment, preemptive war, slander, and mass-murder, 1,100,000 casualties, 675,000 deaths and more, is the fault of those who support abortion-they put Bush into office and wrecked America, and that will continue. Get with it; the ultimate Child Abuse is abortion and if you supported it, why are you now expecting "GOD" to help you out? GET REAL! Bush has an excuse, he is an evil, avaristic, war criminal and you put him in charge, what does that make you. I worked for JFK in Illinois-he personally selected me, he must be spinning in his grave along with FDR at what has become of the nation that destroyed Nazism and then became a fascist nation run by war criminals, elected by abdication of justice, because of a relative handful of whining, fetus murderers. Congratulations. I hope you are proud of putting Satan in the White House and Congress. Nonetheless, Good day and God Bless.
Professor Emeritus Peter Bagnolo, columnist

If you think God is a "sugar daddy" who hands out stuff you want when you want it, or saves you when you're drowning after you foolishly jump off a ship in the middle of the ocean, then, sorry, there is no God.

If you look for God as a spiritual entity with whom you may consult in your heart to enrich your life, who gives you spiritual strength to survive adversity, and who empowers you to speak out against wrongs and be the change you wish to see in the world, then you will find Him. WE must be the doers of God's work in the world - that is why we are here.

@ eladysmith

Yes of course, extrapolating a complex philosophy from a few hundred words written tangentially will not greatly elucidate the reader as to the core beliefs beneath. My purpose above was to point out the absurdity of the fairy-story mentality of literalist Christians (or Muslims or Jews for that matter). People are absolutely entitled to believe what they wish, it is when they try to impose that set of beliefs on others that the problems begin. As Voltaire observed: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." It is my considered view that the monotheistic religions are political devices designed to cow and frighten people, the easier to manipulate and control them. But more than that, they are designed to keep people in the dark, away from the light, to keep them disempowered. AntiGod.

I'm not sure I quite get your second paragraph, although I think I get the gist of it. Where does our consciousness (soul if you like) exist? I mean where does it actually physically exist? Inside our head is the obvious answer, but where inside the head - it's already full up with matter. Therefore logically the only place it can be is inside the matter, in that thing we call the quantum. Where there is no time or space, where Newton's forces do not apply, where there is no beginning and no end. It is where you can indeed (metaphorically) balance a mountain on your little finger as easily as eating an apple (no religious symbolism here, I just happen to be eating an apple at the moment!)

Everything that I am has been before and always will be. The only temporary thing there is 'I', my sense of self, my ego, and the only thing that can 'die' is that ego, after it's momentary spark in the infinite, and despite being the proud possessor of the largest object in the universe (a human ego) even I can understand that my existence doesn't amount to a hill of beans on a cosmic scale.

There is no separateness, there is only One, everything that does, has and will exist, does so simultaneously, indivisibly and eternally. An illustrative parable to finish. Imagine a river. We see one thing, the river, but actually it is (for the sake of this parable) an infinite mount of individual atoms all joined in one entity. Then the river pours over a cliff, and a small droplet is thrown clear and falls alongside the stream. Although it is from the whole, for a few brief moments of descent it is a unique entity, unlike any drop before or any drop that will come. As it falls it approaches a place where there is a gap in the rocks and a shaft of sunlight pours through. Suddenly it is red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo violet before it falls back into the river below and no longer exists as a unique entity, it just an indivisible part of the river again. That moment in the rainbow is our life, and what a glorious moment it was, but what has changed? The river is still there, the waterfall is still there, the rainbow is still there. Nothing has actually changed at all. Nonetheless, it's still not a good idea to vote Republican.

I have a hard time believing there is a God anymore! Almost everything I see proves it's all in man's head! It's a control mechanism used by man to control other men. We are here and now. We need to learn how to take care of ourselves instead of expecting some enity in the heavens to do it for us! I am certain 6 million Jews prayed to him as hard as they could as they went to their terrible deaths! As did millions at the hands of Pol Pot and Stalin! So, if we wait around for him to do it we are doomed!

I have a simple question that I have never heard posed by anyone (although every time that I think I have an original thought I find it somewhere in the literature at some later date)

If humans were immortal would humans have invented god?

I am really appalled, although unfortunately not surprised, at this thread. Many people with impeccable progressive credentials, who work for social justice, environmental protection, and a host of other essential causes, are persons of deep faith in God. I am one of those. I suppose I will now be subject to a torrent of abuse on this thread from people who are hell-bent on telling me that it's all a "fairy tale."

I could spend hours arguing my point, but suffice it to say that I am smart enough to know that I don't know everything about the universe (or multiple universes, as the case may be). Thus, the fact that I cannot explain to your satisfaction every aspect of God's behavior cannot possibly prove that He does not exist.

My larger point is that there are an enormous number of people of good will who would like to join our cause, but are driven away by hostile phrases such as "[god] better get his shit together", "tiresome nonsense," "self-delusional mythology", etc... and that's just cherry-picking the last two posts. What other personal belief is subject to so much abuse from liberals? Why do we progressives insist on driving those people into the arms of the Republicans? Where else have they to go?

allblue, i too used to challenge linear thinking zeolots asking why it is god imagined the bones of mighty beasts which never lived, but as you say (and promptly forgot), not the point, which is...

as light defines the darkness, so the beginning defines the end, which comes with the gift of a promise that cannot be forgot: i say to you there will come a time when you will point to the mountain and stay move from there to there and it will move and there will be nothing you cannot do

... in our timeless imaginings there is no limit as to how high we can jump

Where is God in Iraq & the Palestinian Territories ?

god the matriarch: thou will
god the patriach: thou shalt
god the ambigous: thou mayest
timshel...

God said "Let there be light' and there was light. OK, light is a form of radiation emitted by two hydrogen atoms being forced together under tremendous pressure, so before the light there must have been hydrogen, lots of it, and gravity of course, along with space and time. If the world was created at 9am on October 23rd 4004 BC as some believe, it follows that the light that is reaching Earth today from stars over 6011 light years away must have been created in situ, pre-generated radiation that spontaneously appeared (travelling on a precise course at 300,000 kps) somewhere in the vacuum of space.
Of course by that time He had already created Earth, a dark, frozen Earth obviously, but an Earth covered in liquid water, meaning it was at least 1Ëšc, unless in those days water remained liquid at 0Ëšk. The Earth, along with all the other visible matter in the Universe is made up of other elements along with hydrogen, elements that are created when massive stars reach the end of their life and explode in a supernova, an explosion so great that it will emit more light than all the other 100 billion stars in it's home galaxy, but as God hadn't created light by the time he created the Earth he must have created those heavier elements some other way. It is all very confusing isn't it.
Anyway, this wasn't my main point. In this thread, as elsewhere, we are told that God gave man 'free will', hence all the war, destruction, misery etc. is not God's fault. However, this rather glibly assumes that there is universal constant called 'free will', there is no continuum, you either have it or you don't. Now I would like to jump fifty feet into the air, that is my will, but as hard as I try I cannot. Therefore my free will is clearly circumscribed, there are limits to it, it is conditional. The limited free will we have has tight constraints placed on it by God, the term is relative. Similarly with the ability to resist 'temptation'. If Adam, a man who had direct unequivocal personal contact with God, and who could have had no doubts about his credentials as the Supreme Being still could not resist the temptation to eat a proscribed fruit, it rather suggests that when God was designing Adam he should have given him just a bit more ability to resist temptation, then all the subsequent suffering and misery could have been avoided. No, in His wisdom, from the infinity of possibilities available to Him, he created Adam with insufficient self-control to resist temptation. He set him up to fail in other words.
Still, God loves us, and we know that because he has promised never to wipe out every single living thing on the planet bar one boatload in a fit of pique again, which should be a great comfort to us all. I mean imagine what it must have been like, not, as depicted, the ark floating serenely on an endless empty ocean, but stretching as far as the eye could see billions of floating bloated putrefying corpses, carrion eating birds hopping from corpse to corpse absolutely spoiled for choice. The stench must have been overwhelming. I often wonder how freshwater creatures survived when all the earth was covered in saltwater, perhaps Noah had an aquarium on board and he just forgot to write it down, and although only two fleas boarded the ark, a lot more must have got off. Quite how a pair of non-swimming flightless kiwi birds got all the way from New Zealand to Turkey and back again must just remain one of those mysteries I suppose. Presumably the two pigs selected had tapeworm, and the anopheles mosquitoes malaria, otherwise they would not be with us today. It was quite a logistical exercise if nothing else.
I could go on (you'd better believe it!), but just one final thought, returning to the matter of light. We do know that God felt regret at his act of, well we don't really have a word for wiping out a whole planet, genocide doesn't really do it justice, and he created a rainbow to periodically reassure us that He will not do it again. A rainbow is the visible spectrum refracting through water droplets into it's different wavelengths, yet before the Flood it clearly did not do that as rainbows did not exist until that point. This means antediluvian light must have been different as it did not refract so, and I just wonder if any Christians here have any theories as to the nature of that light, because it is something I ponder from time to time.

Americans don't get Very Angry more often than other nationalities, do they? But when they do, they have easy access to unbelievable firepower. Because we get angry, we should limit our own access to weapons until we learn to control our tempers. Gun control? It's self-control we need! [But until then, gun control is a prudent move, wouldn't you say?]

Pattern-chaser

"Who cares, wins"

God's lila (game or play) is to play hide and seek with himself. Thus part of the One becomes the many (creation) and the purpose of life (and death and life again and again) is to find our way back to merging with that One (which is nameless because it is beyond our comprehension). Life no matter in what planet or form it is in, is a type of spiritual boot camp with it's process of purification. Unless we become perfectly pure and ego-less we are returned over and over in a timeless process of reincarnation up and down the scale of life depending on our actions. The infinite is timeless and aloof letting us learn in the spiritual play via our limited free will. Free will is always limited by our past actions and lives, just as we advance deeper into a chess game, every move is predicated on the one before and become more and more limited until we are finally in check.
Karma is the universal law in the creation and inviable. Universal justice is the rule. Every penny must be accounted for. The myth of forgiveness is a creation of religion and the priestcraft to gain wealth and power and to give people the illusion that their actions don't have equal and opposite reactions. Mankind is always drawing on his karmic credit card thinking that there is no creditor or said creditor will never find him.
Thus most dramatic actions (effects) are karmic in nature and are unavoidable. Of course this doesn't mean that we are not compassionate and helpful to suffering. If someone gets run over in the street we do not say 'this is your karma' but we help the person as we are able. We wear seat belts and brush our teeth, taking these steps because we do not know what our karmic destiny is (ie - to die in a car crash or have cavities). We go about our life as if we have free will and autonomy. But it is the wise soul who ultimately surrenders to the divine destiny as he knows he himself is the maker of it.
Naturally there are esoteric element in this "mythology" that will not be mentioned but they involve the greatest souls in our creation before their teaching were corrupted into man made religions.
P.S. I wouldn't really take this so seriously .... it's just a little bed time story.... sleep well.

Belief in God is frequently a barrier to action and causes inaction. Belief in the Christian god, delays personal responsibility for what could be preventable occurences.

Quit the philosophic ramblings... It's just more bullshit piled upon the already warped and tangled thoughts.
----------

"We dance round in a circle and suppose
But the secret sits in the middle and knows."

But back to the article --
Really, this is the sheerest of nonsense, I mean, where is Same Harris or Dawkins when you need them?
I'm tired, really tired, of the contortions religionists feel they need to commence every time massive national or global tragedy strikes. Last time it was the Indonesian tsunami, remember? Headlines screamed "Natural Disaster Shakes Faith" etc. Well, not for long, "faith" always seems to make a swift recovery, like recidivistic drinking after a brush with DUI.
Just imagine the contorted logic of this article translated to the desperate rationalizing of pulled over drunk: "But ossifer, my wild weavings on the road actually makes other drivers more cautious and hence the streets are safer..." Somehow I don't think the cop would see the subtleties of argument. But somehow when moved to the cosmic realm it's supposed to have merit. Bull. This is all bunk, ALL BUNK!

centavo --
Perhaps I can shed some light (ahem). It's because the strong belief in a supernatural entity without any evidence at all is an affront to reason and human dignity. As Voltaire said, an insult to one is an insult to all.
Let me put it this way: If someone you know did something stupid over and over and over -- and it was not a completely harmless thing either -- would you respect their right to do it? If religious belief were completely harmless then you might have a point, but it isn't, and I think you know it.
For instance, suppose I still believed, really believed, in Santa Claus. You would look at me strangely but might not say anything. Now suppose you are progressive (I don't know). You might be more inclined to ridicule a person for voting for George Bush solely because he's born-again. In fact, that's an excellent example of a malign influence of supernaturalism. Bush, and all the evil he represents, occupies the white house because of his religious belief, or the exploitation of belief, which is even worse.
You have perfect right to be offended, but don't play dumb.

Voxclamantis:
"The best stuff is in the problematic middle, between the unphilosophic snorting of atheists and the unreflecting, unphilosophic boilerplate of churchgoers."

You missed your calling. You should have been a theologist. You write purdy and say zero.

I understand why some people don't believe in God. I don't understand why, for some, that personal belief has to become an attack on those, like the author, who do.

I applaud the author's attempt to explain the unexplainable within the context of faith, and I appreciate her words of hope and action. I need hope. I don't want to face every day armed only with the philosophy that "life's a bitch, and then you die."

The basic premise of conservatives--both religious and political--is that humans are evil. The purpose of government is to erect barriers to protect us from the "evil doers." One of the barriers is to prey on the prejudices which are inculcated by so-called societal norms.

As a theist and a Christian minister, I can refrain from the obvious theological positions that try to explain the problem of evil and a loving God. I can make an agument based simply on humanistic truths.

The educational philosophy that guided our educational systems up until the second half of the 20th century. These "ideals" can be traced back through history as far back as Aristotle, or perhaps furthe. In "de Anima,' Aristotle put forth the principle that the definition of a human being relates to his/her balance between a search for truth, justice and beauty.

The Age of Enlightenmenbt brought this concept of humanity to the development of educational philosophy. People, if they were to develop as human beings must be educated through the studies of what is true [philosophy, science sociology, etc]; what is just [ethics, the rule of law, morality, fairness, equity, etc.]; and what is beautiful [music, art, theater, poetry, fine arts activities, etc.]. If Cho had been exposed to the practice of balancing his life between ssearching for truth, justice, and beauty, he would have better tools with which to deal with his emotional problem. A balanced human being would not be quiet, withdrwn and constantly sulking. And his society would have found ways of identifying him as one who lack human skills in every aspect. It is interesting that only a Pulizer price winning poet could immediately identidy him as a danger; but no one had the skill to understand that one who is skilled in "the search for beauty" would know that this was an aberation it human terms.

My generation [age 65] was the last generation to receive an education based on "Age of Enlightenment" principles. Then it was my generation which illiminated aesthetic experiences from our educational system because beating the Communists in the space race [and cold war] demanded that we emphasized the search for truth, balanced with a parochial sense of ethics [if it feels good, do it; it's okay as long as you don't get caught]. We stopped investing in education that would produce balanced individuals.

So the question is not "where was God?" The more appropriate question is "where were we?"

Hold it know, were still talking about the god of Abraham, the same old god that the Christians, Jews, and Moslims have been worshiping for thousands of years, right? Well this doesn't seem out of character. Isn't this the same god that had the Israelites kill tens of thousands of other tribes. I think if you add it up the Bible says that god had the choosen people kill over a hundred thousand of various other tribes.

So maybe your telling me your god has changed a bit and doesn't order destruction and death and now he is the god of love, well he better get his shit together. Because I don't see much change.

I realize that Ms. Bonfiglio means well, but this is really just tiresome nonsense.
When I was a boy I imagined I'd been born into the dawn of a new age, when humanity would finally cast off the self-destructive savagery and self-delusional mythology that had plagued us immemorially.
Instead I will die in a world just as savage and delusional as the one into which I was born.
It's disappointing.

"God was in the peoples' response to the tragedy" at Virginia Tech? Seems to me that's a little late. Put another way, is God to be admired for closing the barn door after the horses have escaped?

Undoubtedly many people thanked God for sparing the lives of their loved ones during the Virginia Tech massacre; for what have the loved ones of the dead to thank God? Aren't they in fact left with weak, if not insulting, answers, such as provided by this article, to the question posed in this article's title?

God is in us - whether we see it or not.

He/It has to work through us. Peace, environmental cleanup, all the important stuff is up to us all. He/It can, does, & will help us, but it's entirely up to the people - whether the world gets worse or not. The people have the power, but only if/when we stand up and use it.

It's incredibly sad that we've allowed the US government to make such a mess out of Iraq. More power to those who get off their asses on a regular basis for a better/saner world!

From the looks of this string I really can't tell whether God (god) is in vogue or out of vogue. Wish I had time to weigh in properly here, but another time.

Try this on. A remembered phrase from a long ago est seminar: God loves you, but (s)he doesn't give a shit about you.

A lot has been conjectured about the problem of evil. We have on one hand the demiurgic source of being itself, and on the other the anthropomorphic deity who is supposed to care about the fall of every sparrow, but seems not to.

The best stuff is in the problematic middle, between the unphilosophic snorting of atheists and the unreflecting, unphilosophic boilerplate of churchgoers.

Averaging us all together is exactly the best way to imagine God.

"The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature. For him neither the rule of human nor the rule of div ine will exist as an independent cause of natural events. To be sure, the doctrine of a personal God interfering with the natural events could never be refuted, in the real sense, by science, for this doctrine can always take refuge in those domains in wh ich scientific knowledge has not yet been able to set foot. But I am persuaded that such behaviour on the part of the representatives of religion would not only be unworthy but also fatal. For a doctrine which is able to maintain itself not in clear light but only in the dark, will of necessity lose its effect on mankind, with incalculable harm to human progress .... If it is one of the goals of religions to liberate maknind as far as possible from the bondage of egocentric cravings, desires, and fears, s cientific reasoning can aid religion in another sense. Although it is true that it is the goal of science to discover (the) rules which permit the association and foretelling of facts, this is not its only aim. It also seeks to reduce the connections disc overed to the smallest possible number of mutually independent conceptual elements. It is in this striving after the rational unification of the manifold that it encounters its greatest successes, even though it is precisely this attempt which causes it t o run the greatest risk of falling a prey to illusion. But whoever has undergone the intense experience of successful advances made in this domain, is moved by the profound reverence for the rationality made manifest in existence. By way of the understand ing he achieves a far reaching emancipation from the shackles of personal hopes and desires, and thereby attains that humble attitude of mind toward the grandeur of reason, incarnate in existence, and which, in its profoundest depths, is inaccessible to m an. This attitude, however, appears to me to be religious in the highest sense of the word. And so it seems to me that science not only purifies the religious imulse of the dross of its anthropomorphism but also contibutes to a religious spiritualisation of our understanding of life." [Albert Einstein, "Science, Philosophy, and Religion, A Symposium", published by the Conference on Science, Philosophy and Religion in Their Relation to the Democratic Way of Life, Inc., New York, 1941]

Gail says "We apparently have repeatedly failed his expectations. Now what?"

Are you sure that we are not fulfilling 'His' expectations perfectly? The god of the old testament certainly is warped enough to derive pleasure form watching us just as we are, splendid one by one but devastating in large groups.

Before getting twisted in a knot about the existence, or not, of God, and about the particular horrors associated with the killings at Virginia Tech, please remember that the day after these killings, about the same number of people were killed in the U.S. by gunfire, and again, the following day, and again, the day after that. If we continue to see the Virginia Tech killings as a one-off, we will learn nothing. Until guns are deemed socially unacceptable in the U.S., variations of killing over 100 people a day will continue. Perhaps if we followed Prof. Bonfiglio's advice to organize people to look out for each other or, as I would put, care for each other, we would begin to change our capacity to live together and to disagree with each other without killing those with whom we disagree.

The book from which Prof. Bonfiglio is drawing her references is titled "Earthquakes, Terrorism, Barbarism: Where is God" by Jon Sobrino, S.J. . It's a profound meditation of how we find hope and the courage to endure in the midst of tragedy.

"The Universe exploded out of nothingness 14 billion years ago and all I got was trillions of interconnected cells, a self-aware consciousness, and this lousy T-Shirt"

"i guess god was a lot more demonstrative back when he flamboyantly parted the seas/now everybody's praying...don't prey on me"

· Sublimate your anger, sadness and fear by being silent within. Meditate. Take a walk in the woods. Breathe deeply. These strategies cleanse the body and help you face the tragedy.

Er, no thanks. I think I'll disregard this no-brainer invitation to stick my head in the sand and instead support politicians who advocate laws to take guns out of the hands of people who shouldn't have them.

Where was God at Virginia Tech?

Since God is omnipresent, He was there, as well as everywhere.

Since God is omniscient, He knew it would happen, as He does all things.

But WE have F-R-E-E W-I-L-L and God will not interfere with that. We are allowed to be whom we choose to be, do what we choose to do, think what we think, say what we say, believe what we believe.

The crimes of humanity against itself are no reflection on God. They are a reflection on humanity, be it politicians, drug lords, or whatever.

If, as we are told, God is omniscient, then he knew that Cho will kill 32 people before he even willed light into existence. We are told that He created a perfect world with a perfect man yet it had gone wrong by day two when he was forced to create woman because Adam wasn't happy, even though God would have known that he wouldn't have been happy by day two. He knew that Adam would 'fall' before he gathered the dust together. He knew that humanity would slaughter each other, kill just about any animal that wandered in front of a gunsight, often just for the pleasure of the killer and would destroy the intricate web of life that was created as part of the Plan. Yet he persisted with his plan in the full knowledge that torment, misery and suffering would result.
So his Plan either intended this destruction and misery, in which case he could hardly be called a God of love, or his plan has gone wrong in which case he is not omnipotent. War, famine, disease, starvation, wanton destruction, greed, hate, genocide. Was that in his plan, or has his plan gone wrong? Or if these acts are caused by the Devil, it means has the power to destroy God's plan, so must be more powerful than his erstwhile boss. God appears to be avoiding responsibility for his actions in creating this misery.
A junior god maybe, a trainee, not learning from his mistakes and consistently repeating them. His report card from God school must be C-, fail. Must try harder and pay more attention. Time to abandon this failed project, put and end to the suffering and start again with another universe, try to concentrate harder, devise a new plan and please try and get it right this time.

Well supposing there is "God"....

God watched while the young Cho had his brain chemistry twisted whenever that happened.

God watched as Cho was isolated and teachers and students turned away from him because he was "wierd."

God watched as Cho took notice of the homeless and the outcast around him. Those like himself who did not fit and how they were treated.

God watched as Cho was "treated" by the so-called "mental-health" system which is usually underfunded, undermanned and unenthused about actually helping anybody.

God watched as Cho stumbled through four years of college as an isolated loner.

God watched as Cho purchased guns and ammunition.

God watched as each student and teacher was shot.

It's a good thing "God" is watching us isn't it?

What if God=nature, instead of an anthropomorphic tribal totem? In that case, the divine is neither good nor evil (being human moral constructs), but rather the aggregate of the forces of nature. Some fertile and constructive, some terribly destructive.

Where was the anthropomorphic God during the influenza epidemic 1918-1919 (30-40 million people), followed by WWI? All of the 20th century genocides/democides?

Whether god/gods/goddess/goddesses exist is of no consequence in the face of unbelievable suffering. We can't help god, and help sure doesn't seem to be forthcoming.

Therefore, we look out for one another.

"Where Was God at Virginia Tech?"

Well, since God allegedly put us here in his own image, I don't think he planned on hanging around to conduct our behavior since he undoubtedly expected us to behave in a fashion that he would.

We apparently have repeatedly failed his expectations. Now what?

There is no god.

Let's save the world anyway.

i can tell you where God isnt..he is not in the schools or the churches..you people who say where is GOD..you have never lived by the Bible and then expect God to open up the Bible and reveal himself.,..get real

To paraphrase Spider Robinson

"God is an iron. If some who commits blasphemy is a blasphemer, and someone who commits burglary is a burglar, God is an iron."

May he land on Dubya's head.

* BTW, I didn't mean to sound like an NRA supporter! I do NOT endorse the exhorbitant amount of firearms and weapons produced and sold in this country. Quite the opposite.

We need to stop selling weapons, too!

Guns don't kill people.
People kill people.

People kill people often because society isolates, ignores, and strangles the youth with our overly-commercialized, competitive, sick, wealth-driving, pure profit making systems that leave little more than desperation for some.

We must address the ways we are living. When the youth don't have a reason for hope in the world they are smothered, forgotten, and bereft of inspiration.

I think these horrible outbursts are somewhat ALL our faults. The politicians must give the people a society to evolve and grow through greater expression of their own ideas.

The completely free reign of market forces have become the greatest threat to all mankind. We are destroying the very fabric of our planet and our relationships by seeking nothing but profit at the expense of everything else.

Loving kindness is a Theravada Buddhist meditation. The Buddha said that to believe in a god or to disbelieve is to hold a view or opinion. Freedom comes from not holding a view either way - and that is not simple agnosticism. As a great Chinese Ch'an (Zen) master said: If you would walk the highest way, discard opinions pro and con.

"god" is BS, made up by humans, there's no evidence of any existance of "god" and frankly i am so tired of hearing about "god" all the time, i want to go love on the moon or something. all kinds of crap happens, then suddenly there is "god" to help out. my wife had a stroke 2 weeks ago at the age of 39 and we were told "god has blessed us", which meant she didn't die. if there was a god i'd impeach or fire the bastard for poor job performance

"Maybe it would be better if we all stopped believing in our make believe friends at the age of 4 or 5. Then we could all live happily in the real world."

good one! as an atheist, i live free from the chains of this insipid and absurd myth known as "god"

I haven't seen a shred of evidence that god actually exists. In fact, judging by the behavior of a lot of people that claim to worship him, it seems more likely that even if he did exist, he would be as much of a disease as they are. I also think it's ridiculous how often we're constantly exhorted to respond with Loving Kindness (tm) (as another author has put it), when the longer I'm alive, the clearer it seems to become to me that Loving Kindness (tm) isn't really making a difference-although this isn't so much about the VT shooting as much as what I see going on elsewhere.

Maldoror -
You're even more pessimistic than me, if that's possible.

The meaning of life is to destroy the world. That's the only purpose humanity consistently follows.

The more humans, the worse things are.

There's no denying it.

Stop fooling yourself with the idea of the greater good.

I'm sure some of the 32 prayed to God to be saved. Or maybe they were just the ones that didn't pray? Some of the Columbine kids were asked if they believed in God by the killers. Those that said "yes" were shot; those that didn't were spared. So maybe the believers were allowed by God to be shot because they'd go to heaven? Or maybe they didn't have enough time to pray? Or God was distracted? Or, or, or...

Humans were created to fill the world with evil.

God is a sadist.

The killing and murdering of people will continue no matter what you or I do. We can discuss it all you want, we can even pass more laws but that is not going to change a thing.

"How could God allow this to happen?" What kind of limited concept of God does this question imply? There is no god and god is everywhere.

And do you really think it is possible to "subvert God's plan"? That kind of thinking REALLY scares me because it implies the speaker "knows" God's plan. And you know what happens next, what that can justify.

Maybe it would be better if we all stopped believing in our make believe friends at the age of 4 or 5. Then we could all live happily in the real world.

As an agnostic I probably should not weigh in, but I can't help myself. Maybe only a few people can hear God, and most of those few try to follow God's will. And maybe Cho, along with Bush, do hear God and are trying to accomplish God's goal of destroying the USA and the people in it.

It boils down to a simple quote "Take Personal Responsibility For Your Own Life." . . . "Who among you can say I am doing all that I can." . . . . When the American majority can honestly say that this is happening within their own lives this will change . . . Until then continue watching your favorite network for the next big show.

i'm tired of all these goddamn excuses. until we realize that we are a violent, gun-obsessed society and decide to deal with it, rationally discuss it, the killing will go on and on. and god has nothing to do with it.

Er... Joshua: There are many definitions of God. The one which you appear to be using is the quasi-non dualistic notion, wherein God is both the efficient and material cause of the universe.

"God is a concept by which we measure our pain" - John Lennon.

If god was in the response to the tragedy, but not in the tragedy itself, then by definition it is not god. Either god is all, or god is nothing. Take your pick; there is no middle ground with an infinite concept.

Let me offer a slightly different perspective. Is this a free-will Universe or not? If not, divine intervention can be welcome or unwelcome, like the proverbial mother in-law at the Thanksgiving bankquet, or the brother in-law dropping in unannounced for a "friendly visit." On the other hand, in a free-will Universe, humans can save or ruin the world in which they live. Why is it always that when humans screw up, they either want to blame God or argue that God does not exist? This strikes me as naive and childish.

Virginia Tech has nothing to do with God, and everything to do with the rest of us, particularly Americans. The only God that is dead is the one we invoke as being on our side when we foment our ill-begotten wars!!!

www.raycarlson.com

When will people stop issuing alibis and apologies for god and take their reality medication?

"The greatest trick man ever pulled was to convince the world God existed." not from "The Usual Suspects"