If ever there was reason for capital punishment it would be TREASON. But of course, there would go our entire administration and half of Congress (CAPITOL Punishment). So it ain't gonna happen.

Seriously, though, the numbers proven innocent by DNA should teach us that capital punishment is too risky to ever consider. Surely a like amount of other prisoners are innocent, but there is no test to prove it. We do know that prosecutors want numbers, and care little how they get them. The poor have no access to attorneys who can play the prosecutor's game, so they are guilty the minute they're arrested. Facts being no impediment.

So many "criminals" are merely naughty boys, doing what would have brought us of an older generation a trip home in the police car to face our parents. Growing up has always been hard, but we used to have a chance to review our behavior and decide that too much rebellion just wasn't worth the trouble.

Some poor souls are sick, and a brutal prison is too pointless and cruel for them. It's true that some are too dangerous to ever be allowed out amongst the general population, but they could live a productive life in a self contained community where they grew much of their own food, built their buildings, tended to their own housekeeping, etc. Those proven trustworthy could have apartments where they could live like human beings. Bright ones could teach the illiterate, so those who are eventually released would have a chance to choose another path. It would be an incentive that could go far to civilizing the system. And it would reduce the expense....although that isn't an object in our privately controlled prisons.

It shouldn't be a crime to be crazy.....and it could be any one of us. We're only lucky to not be crazy...we're not better or nicer. We're only lucky to have been raised in a decent neighborhood, where going to school wasn't dangerous, to have received early nutrition that allowed our bodies and minds proper growth. We didn't earn that, just as those on the other side of the tracks didn't earn their low station at birth. Only luck put us in our situation. We are in no way better!

Actually the discussion was really about the here and now and whether or not capital punishment (death) for capital crimes (willful killing of another) is justified. One of the central planks of the "anti Death" argument is that wrongful sentencing is rife. That is a massive blot on any legal system, quite as bad as the blatantly guilty getting off on piffling legal technicalities. Another plank is the implication that death by injection is intrinsically painful and therefore cruel. It isn't or should not be painful therefore the cruelty bit comes down to whether a first degree murderer deserves the mercy they refused their victim(s).. AND whether the rest of us would be better of if the Touchy Feely Crowds didn't let some of these specimens back onto the streets. Ever..
Parenting 101 is another forum. But I quite agree. There are many many inept people who think cos they can stick it in and wiggle it about a bit, they can be parents for the next 18 - 25 years.

therzal, I'm not talking about "touchy-feely sessions" but I don't agree that a "judicious smack" is beneficial to a child's social development and self esteem. Of course, your idea of physical harm may not be the same as that of Alberto Gonzales. If children are raised with respect, with appropriate limits set for them, with appropriate boundaries modeled for them and the opportunity to experience the consequences of their choices within the safe limits set for them, they learn appropriate personal and social behavior.

Mirroring: When adults reflect back to babies the expressions they are feeling, they feel recognized and connected. When babies cry, they are expressing an unfilled need, they have no other way of expressing it. When adults go on smiling while the baby cries, they are not mirroring the baby's feelings, they are dismissing them.

Validation: Adults often tend to say to small children "I wish I had your problems". But for small children, their problems are just as huge to them as ours are to us. It's not for us to solve their problems(rescue them), but to acknowledge that they are just as important to them as ours are to us.

Empathy: The Russians have a saying, "A full man will never understand a hungry man". And isn't this what we are railing about, that the wealthy, the Republicans, despise the poor and blame them for the state they're in? People forget how hard and painful childhood can be. Chldren feel everything strongly. They have not learned to numb themselves, they have not learned to shield themselves. They are wide open and unprotected, so keeping that in mind in interacting with them is empathy. Children aren't articulate. They can't tell you something is going wrong. They can only express it with acting-out behavior. So the behavior is not an end, it is a clue they are in trouble and need help. Look behind the behavior to what is going on in that child's life and you will find it. No baby is born vicious just as no puppy is born vicious. We create that. They don't.

Teaching a child they are special and "above the law" is abusive and setting them up to be a future George W. Bush. And the worst form of child abuse is neglect, because that creates a personality that doesn't care about anyone, and has no empathy, a sociapath. Because if no one cares about them, they don't care about anyone either.

kathyodat...
I do not need to read anything else to agree with you that a psychopath OR a sociopath is a flawed, mentally aberrant person. It is difficult to actually say "ill" because that assumes we can with real confidence define what is "well". We can't, only a broad spectrum.

"Society" doesn't create these people, they exist, their behaviour is largely inherited. Whether it be neuro-chemistry or neuro-anatomy that accounts for it, is not really clear. However, we can well recognise that the consequences of that persons "condition" are not rewarding for anybody except themselves. i.e They are a negative influence on all, in the long run and therefore, more for the benefit of the many, should be removed from society, one way or the other.

Any society that thinks the individual is paramount tries to accommodate these flawed individuals, often to the detriment of the majority. A society that puts itself before the individual (but with protection for the individual Rather like Bees or ants..) does better. Curiously in human society we have a combination of both, with some members performing the most heroic and altruistic acts whilst others pontificate about the rights of the most aberrant and useless members, often to extreme and ridiculous lengths,

There are far too many people these days who think the world revolves around them, having lost all sight of their place in the scheme of things, in society. They should know how to accept differences in capability and potential, respect each other and acknowledge the role we all have to play together in sustaining diverse, tolerant and caring societies and world. Those who are irredeemably incapable of learning to act in this way should be isolated/removed.

Children, like all little baby animals, are not always aware of the "right" thing to do and it is often not possible to have a touchy feely session to explain that torturing ones littler sister is wrong. Of course children don't come to any harm from a judicious smack, as long as it is appropriate, does not cause physical harm, occurs at the time of the incident which provokes it and is not the prelude to some prolonged and excessive punishment.

Mirroring and validation...
Do you really think that it is a good idea to keep telling kids how important and wonderful they are?? How about telling kids that other people are just as important as they are, that we are all in this together and YES, some people are more gifted, capable and intelligent than others, but we are all equal before the laws of our country??
A child with the deeply implanted idea that they alone are "special" and all else are somehow "not" sounds to me strangely like an embryonic psychopath, the one thing we want to avoid here..

therzal, why don't you read crime and punishment by Kahlil Gibran in The Prophet, and then explain to me how a criminal paychopath is not a mentally ill person? Do you believe that punishment is the way to raise children? That it produces right thinking social behavior, or only fear based responses?

Yes, society, which after all creates these problems, still needs to protect itelf from the results of it's own wrongness. But to create these problems, and then deal with it by killing people? Come on.

If every baby and child was raised with mirroring, validation and empathy, we would not have criminal behavior.

For example, how would you punish this fellow??
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,2072899,00.html

25 years in jail (maybe) to come out at 43, angry, bitter and UNTREATED?? Still quite capable of killing again and again..

If this is the personality now, it is damaged and flawed beyond repair. Like a tumour, it should be isolated/killed. Don't tell me he is going to be another Einstein.. If only we understand and "rehabilitate" him..

Number of points..
Death by intravenous injection does not have to be painful or "undignified". Millions of anaesthetics are performed everyday, and that is how in essence, the proven guilty would be treated. Just to set the record straight on that point.

If there are people being killed for their political and social views or just who they are, by regimes that have appalling human and civil rights records, that is a matter for the world community to address through action at government level, with strenuous support from people activism.

Killing, by police, of unarmed but threatening people, usually drug effect and/or psychologically impaired, indicates two things.
1) An urgent need for better training and equipping of police with non lethal defence and control equipment.. and...
2) Far more resources for those suffering from these various conditions to be properly cared for and not thrown back into the main stream, uncared for or supported. Too much mental illness is unrecognised/untreated.

Judicial killing of criminal psychopaths who are clearly and unambiguously proven to be guilty of 1st degree murder (I do not include in this people from Texas who are guilty because of their skin colour or social strata, despite often good evidence to the contrary...) or who kill in the course of a crime is, in my view, a legitimate solution. That, or lock them up and throw away the key.. Which I think is actually really cruel.
I include in this category psychopaths in political positions (and their enablers) who lead their countries and people into grievous and criminal actions against other countries and people.

kathyodat, okay good challenge. Here's my response:

I will favor the death penalty when it is enforced by government officials as the penalty for lying Americans into sending their sons and daughters to bomb undefended people in other countries.

Is that better?

I was just reading some of the characteristics of the generations in America. Baby Boomers garner a lot of attention due to the cultural revolutions going on at the time. Subsequent generations are routinely stigmatized by the Boomers currently in power as slackers with McJobs.

So now the slacking, thin skinned generations living in the shadows of the Boomers are having to clean up a that was left in the wake of the Baby Boomer's legacy, for example, global warming, peak oil, our runaway government, loss of constitutional rights, booming corrections industry, etc. (tongue in cheek).

Seriously though, the nature of the death penalty has its roots in fear. Fear is the reason why we react to the shortcomings of our society in the way we do. Treating the symptom with stricter laws, such as the famed "three strikes", have not countered the rise in criminal activity. The death penalty has never been the answer to our growing criminal culture. All criminal activity is a product, or a symptom, of the problems in our society.

I hope that this trend continues as lawyers with conscience work to eradicate the death penalty. If this trend is present in other areas within our social construct then we can work to correct the problems in our society that cultivate criminal activity.

Let's face it, what was good for our parents just doesn't cut it anymore. It is time for a more progressive approach that applies prevention as a means to resolve problems for future generations.

Every single life is not precious in a nation practicing the death penalty and engaging in illegal wars, all the while talking about whether or not to drop bombs on Iran that are between 10 and 100 times more powerful than the A bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

I'm afraid the recent Virginia Tech shootings are an offshoot of this incomprehensible
tolerance of so much violence in our country.

The good thing about the death penalty - because it is legal it avoids the temptation to kill people through "attempted escapes" and "shootouts" and other such blarney.

The bad thing about the death penalty - killing people is wrong, it's especially wrong in cold blood, even more so for money or political gain. There is no way of murdering someone in cold blood nicely.

Add to that the high number of false convictions and its plain barbaric.

It's easy to think of situations that "warrant it" but in truth the fact remains if you give government the power to kill people then you are giving government the power to kill people. Arguing over just what it takes to deserve to be murdered in cold blood reminds me of the Churchill quote that ended in "We've established what you are, now we're just discussing the price.."

S.

Given that the South Carolina legislature considered and the Texas legislature is currently considering a mandate that women be required to view an ultrasound prior to undergoing an abortion, perhaps judges/juries considering the death penalty should be required to first view an uncut video where the preferred method used in their state is implemented. Even better, perhaps this requirement should be extended to governors and legislatures of states that advocate continuing this practice.

Albert Camus had the right idea. If you're going to have executions, make them public and attendance mandatory. That way we can all see capital punishment for what it really is--murder. Perhaps then have a rational debate about whether we wish to contine with such cruel and unusual punishment.

Hats off to these young lawyers fighting for justice. They are worthy of our support.

I will favor the death penalty when it is prescribed for malfeasance in office.

psilver, not really unless you are speaking tongue-in-cheek knowing that will never happen. Killing is killing no matter who does it and there is no right to it. Retaliation only leads to escalation. I agree that we don't know what to do with our spiritually wounded, how to help them. But punishing or murdering them isn't the solution. I do agree that until we learn how to help them we do need to protect ourselves from them, but at the same time we don't need to mistreat them. I'm not a Christian, but Christ did have the right idea. And if you don't think Bush isn't spiritually wounded (as if his behavior isn't a clue), read Bush On the Couch.

Smurfy, re your Churchill quote: well put. I liked the original and I love the application. I'm not so sure the death penalty has as much of a deterrent on shootouts (Ruby Ridge, Waco come to mind) as you might wish for. Perhaps the police don't have sufficient trust in the efficacy of our criminal justice system?

Also here in Eugene OR there have been several police killings of young unarmed teenagers and mentally ill people. But I don't fault the officers for that, I think they were undertrained for the situations they found themselves in, and afraid for their own lives. As a society, we need to provide training the the circomstances we put our officers in. And this is a community that doesn't see a lot of violent crime, so experience is another lack for them.

logansanfi--
I agree, I overstated my case; I've gone the protest route, as has my son. I just get frustrated when I do see the younger generation attacked by others who seem to pose generations against each other. I get just as tired of Baby Boomers all being seen as alike, as if I should be held responsible for Bush and Cheney who seemed to have lived through a different era than I did. Maybe it's just my recurring gulit speaking, as I don't do enough to change the world; simultaneously it's my sense of helplessness at same. So I admire all those who try and all those who have any impact when they do try. I do think there's some kind of glacial progress........

fligloot, I hope when you say infallible, you mean never.

And psilver, consider what Clarence Darrow had to say about the death penalty: "There's only two things in all this. If you love the idea of killing someone you're for it. If you hate the idea of killing someone you're against it." So on which side of that fence are you?

Chuck Cliff, we have kept even worse company when you exclude the countries that don't execute children. Fortunately a 2005 Supreme Court decision put a stop to that atrocity. There were still 4 Neanderthals willing to execute children.

Until we understand we are all one on an energetic level we will continue to harm and kill each other, doing as much harm to ourselves as each other. You can call it whatever you want - karma - what goes around comes around - but it comes down to creating an energetic toxic stew. I believe religion has totally subverted the real meaning of heaven and hell, but we live in what we create.

Longingforsanity, in the lead off commentary you have unfortunately counterposed 2 generations as if they were against each other, and two different strategies in the same way, too. Also, contrary to what you say, demonstrations are not 'useless' and there are many ways to demonstrate, not just one.

We should not expect a miracle from any single form of opposition to the status quo. It is great that there are young lawyers trying to go the extra mile to file objections to this form of death delivery by The State. They join with large numbers of other people, including some in their '70s and '80s, who have used a large variety of other strategies to oppose the death penalty. Kudos to all those who do this hard work! No single strategy of opposition alone will win on this issue, nor any other major issue, either.

I'm not a proponent of capital punishment, either. I prefer to offer convicted murderers the opportunity of redemption.

But with the recent deathbed confessions of E. Howard Hunt -- a former high-level CIA agent and operations manager -- admitting his own and CIA complicity in the murder of President Kennedy in 1963, it makes you wonder if high treason might be enough to warrant capital punishment for capital crimes of that nature. It also makes you wonder if any of those treacherous conspirators from that era are still alive and what they might have to say about the death penalty! See http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/jfk_hunt_son_drops_new_bombshell_revelations.htm for Hunt's revelations.

I heard y'day on Danish radio that almost all executions occur in five countries -- China, Iraq, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia (I think it was) and the US. What a nice bunch of places to be compared to!

Jeeze, even Turkey, which has the death penalty doesn't use it, not even on the leader of the PKK they captured some years ago.

With 1,072 executed, while 123 were found to be innocent, that looks like a better than 10% error rate. Even if it is less than that, it is too high for an unreversable act.

I will favor the death penalty as soon as humans are made infallible.

Yes, abolish the death penalty, because it's a known fact that innocent people are executed- the system is FLAWED; therefore, it must END.
Whenever an execution date approaches, everyone who cares about justice must call and write the governor of that state and demand he or she cancel/delay the execution. Remind them that history will remember their deeds and that participating in such a corrupt program of death is an unforgettably heinous act! THEN, if they still allow the execution, on each anniversary of that prisoner's execution, why not send them a memorial reminder greeting to remind them of their complicity.

A greater scandal than how the condemned are put to death is how many of the condemned really are not guilty. Hardly a month passes when we don't hear of stoies of people sentenced to death or life without possibility of parole being exhonerated.

This often happens when either someone else coming forward to provide corroborating evidence or DNA analysis proving that the convicted one couldn't have been guilty party.

God alone knows how many innocents were (are) being killed.

Writing as a baby boomer, I am tired of people denigrating the current younger generation, because they don't always show up to useless protests. As this article shows, they are working hard at far more effective approaches to change.