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Why Israel Is After Me
Amman, Jordan — I am a Palestinian from Nazareth, a citizen of Israel and was, until last month, a member of the Israeli parliament.
But now, in an ironic twist reminiscent of France's Dreyfus affair — in which a French Jew was accused of disloyalty to the state — the government of Israel is accusing me of aiding the enemy during Israel's failed war against Lebanon in July.
Israeli police apparently suspect me of passing information to a foreign agent and of receiving money in return. Under Israeli law, anyone — a journalist or a personal friend — can be defined as a "foreign agent" by the Israeli security apparatus. Such charges can lead to life imprisonment or even the death penalty.
The allegations are ridiculous. Needless to say, Hezbollah — Israel's enemy in Lebanon — has independently gathered more security information about Israel than any Arab Knesset member could possibly provide. What's more, unlike those in Israel's parliament who have been involved in acts of violence, I have never used violence or participated in wars. My instruments of persuasion, in contrast, are simply words in books, articles and speeches.
These trumped-up charges, which I firmly reject and deny, are only the latest in a series of attempts to silence me and others involved in the struggle of the Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel to live in a state of all its citizens, not one that grants rights and privileges to Jews that it denies to non-Jews.
When Israel was established in 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled in fear. My family was among the minority that escaped that fate, remaining instead on the land where we had long lived. The Israeli state, established exclusively for Jews, embarked immediately on transforming us into foreigners in our own country.
For the first 18 years of Israeli statehood, we, as Israeli citizens, lived under military rule with pass laws that controlled our every movement. We watched Jewish Israeli towns spring up over destroyed Palestinian villages.
Today we make up 20% of Israel's population. We do not drink at separate water fountains or sit at the back of the bus. We vote and can serve in the parliament. But we face legal, institutional and informal discrimination in all spheres of life.
More than 20 Israeli laws explicitly privilege Jews over non-Jews. The Law of Return, for example, grants automatic citizenship to Jews from anywhere in the world. Yet Palestinian refugees are denied the right to return to the country they were forced to leave in 1948. The Basic Law of Human Dignity and Liberty — Israel's "Bill of Rights" — defines the state as "Jewish" rather than a state for all its citizens. Thus Israel is more for Jews living in Los Angeles or Paris than it is for native Palestinians.
Israel acknowledges itself to be a state of one particular religious group. Anyone committed to democracy will readily admit that equal citizenship cannot exist under such conditions.
Most of our children attend schools that are separate but unequal. According to recent polls, two-thirds of Israeli Jews would refuse to live next to an Arab and nearly half would not allow a Palestinian into their home.
I have certainly ruffled feathers in Israel. In addition to speaking out on the subjects above, I have also asserted the right of the Lebanese people, and of Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, to resist Israel's illegal military occupation. I do not see those who fight for freedom as my enemies.
This may discomfort Jewish Israelis, but they cannot deny us our history and identity any more than we can negate the ties that bind them to world Jewry. After all, it is not we, but Israeli Jews who immigrated to this land. Immigrants might be asked to give up their former identity in exchange for equal citizenship, but we are not immigrants.
During my years in the Knesset, the attorney general indicted me for voicing my political opinions (the charges were dropped), lobbied to have my parliamentary immunity revoked and sought unsuccessfully to disqualify my political party from participating in elections — all because I believe Israel should be a state for all its citizens and because I have spoken out against Israeli military occupation. Last year, Cabinet member Avigdor Lieberman — an immigrant from Moldova — declared that Palestinian citizens of Israel "have no place here," that we should "take our bundles and get lost." After I met with a leader of the Palestinian Authority from Hamas, Lieberman called for my execution.
The Israeli authorities are trying to intimidate not just me but all Palestinian citizens of Israel. But we will not be intimidated. We will not bow to permanent servitude in the land of our ancestors or to being severed from our natural connections to the Arab world. Our community leaders joined together recently to issue a blueprint for a state free of ethnic and religious discrimination in all spheres. If we turn back from our path to freedom now, we will consign future generations to the discrimination we have faced for six decades.
Americans know from their own history of institutional discrimination the tactics that have been used against civil rights leaders. These include telephone bugging, police surveillance, political delegitimization and criminalization of dissent through false accusations. Israel is continuing to use these tactics at a time when the world no longer tolerates such practices as compatible with democracy.
Why then does the U.S. government continue to fully support a country whose very identity and institutions are based on ethnic and religious discrimination that victimize its own citizens?
Azmi Bishara was a member of the Knesset until his resignation in April.
© 2007 The Los Angeles Times
96 Comments so far
Show AllComanche
Well, illiterate ...
Jews are native in Israel, you illiterate ...
I didn't know people can live on such level of knowledge
You defend Indians because they are native and the victims,
but you attack Jews because they are native and the victims.
Your brain computer is out of order.
So much for the advertised 'fact' that Israel is a democracy. It is nothing more than a theological state that practices apartheid under the guise of democracy. And they reek of racism.
Only the USA encourages or overlooks this behavior of Israel on the world stage. Why is that I wonder? No nation, more than the USA, through the veto at the United Nations, enables the disgracful behavior of the Israeli state. It places both the USA and Israel in the truly ironic and hypocritical situation of appearing to be ROGUE STATES, not adhering to the "Rule of Law" in the community of nations.
It is a genuine travesty, IMO of course.
"Only the USA encourages or overlooks this behavior of Israel on the world stage. Why is that I wonder?"
The reason is that the US, like Israel, and formerly, apartheid South Africa. who also heavily backed Israel, is fairly apparent. All these countries have exceptionalism as their national religion. They deeply believe that they are a special, superior god-chosen people for whom rules are only for others. This leads to a delusion that they are under continuous threat from the envious, non-chosen people, thus the brutal militarism.
It also leads the exceptionalist nations to invade other nations, committing the most horrible atrocities, under the delusion that they are actually doing "these people" a favor.
The common historical thread running through nationalistic exceptionalism is that such nations were founded through violent persecution and ethnic-cleansing by settlers - and the settlers themselves usually suffered religious perseuction in their old countries. So we have the The Boers from the N. Europe to South Africa, the various puritan and seperatist sects from England to N. America, and the Jews from Europe to the land of Palestine.
I know this theory isn't perfect, as the English are exceptionalist, and nobody ever persecuted them. But what socialogical theory is?
Mr. Bishara has two choices, he can either demand fair treatment and an open platform for his complaints against Israel from an honest and fair-minded American media, or he can sprout a pair of wings and flutter off to another planet, there to live ever after in eternal bliss. Both are equally realistic.
http://www.ussliberty.org/
Israel has the MOST rights for its minorities than its neighbors. Has the BEST conditions for women in the whole ME.
And apartheid was/is inherent in Islamic Law, what the anti-Israel types are trying to impose. Read up on Dhimmitude.
PJD above, offers a great idea as to why the USA is so supportive of a Rogue Nation such as Israel.
National exceptionalism,is an interesting idea. Good post.
Mr. Bashara-
I'm an Israeli citizen and I think you are completely wrong. Whatever conditions exist now, you were elected to serve the citizens of the country. Instead you chose to parade abroad instead of actually doing anything productive back here at home. Your resignation proves you have let down all Israelis, both Arabs and Jews.
Here are some quotes from your article and points I have problems with:
"Anyone committed to democracy will readily admit that equal citizenship cannot exist under such conditions."
I find it hard to believe you actually bothered to review the laws of the Knesset and Supreme Court rulings. Israel's basic laws specifically denote equal citizenship for all citizens. The notion that Israel is racist because it is a Jewish state is completely fallacious and is a double-standard. The UK and Spain are two examples of states that have official establishments with religion. According to your logic, these states must be discriminatory as well because they are sponsoring religion, thus "preferring" one religion over another. And what about the other Arab states you have spent so much time in. You mean to tell me that these states—most of which are officially Islamic Republics— provide fairness and equality under their laws? I see that your editorial was published in Amman, Jordan—a state which has peace with Israel, but also codes for the death penalty for any person who sells property to a Jew.
I have always been a long-time active supporter of rights and democracy. Do you include yourself in the list of those "committed to democracy?" Apparently not, since you succinctly stated in Beirut on one of your visits that "We don't want any democracy." This sounds a bit hypocritical to me. It's no wonder nobody has taken to the streets to demonstrate in your support, because frankly, your interests do not lie with the people who elected you (in a democratic society might I add). While Hezbollah rockets fell all over the North (hitting both Arab and Jewish cities) you were dining with Nisrallah and busy meeting with foreign leaders. What would you say to the families of the two people in your hometown of Nazareth that were killed? The question that keeps repeating itself in my mind is this: What are you trying to accomplish? I think you'd be better off as an actor as you seem to flourish when the spotlight is on you. That is your reputation here, in both Jewish and Arab cities. Not a man of peace but a self-centered drama queen.
"separate but unequal...they cannot deny us our history and identity"
Nobody is denying your history or identity. This conflict is tragic for everybody. I hope you aren't trying to allude that schools are somehow "separated" here based on race. Arabs and Jews for the most part attend separate schools because we don't mostly live in the same towns nor speak the same language. Furthermore, the Israeli curriculum used in Arab schools is fairly autonomous and places much emphasis on Arab culture and literature.
You mention that 700,000 Palestinians were displaced in 1948. I am not arguing that these people were not mistreated. What about the Jews in Arab lands? Contrary to what you might think, the narrative is not unique: Jews have been discriminated against (and killed, for that matter) under Islamic rule for over 1500 years, and continue to face such discrimination in every Islamic country to this day. The reason Israel exists as a Jewish state is to prevent genocide of the Jewish people. After thousands of years of being persecuted, we are not going to let holocausts become a common occurrence. This provides the logic behind the so-called "right of return." Conversely, the state of Palestine, (for which I and many other fellow Israelis, both Jews and Arabs, having been seeking to foster) will serve the Palestinian people in the same way: all Palestinian refugees will be able to seek residence in their State.
You start your article defining yourself as a citizen of Israel, but you didn't describe yourself as an Israeli, per se. Whether you like it or not, Arabs and Jews living in this land now share much the same identity. You say that Israel actively discriminates against its Arab citizens in "all spheres" of life. While I don't agree with your statement, I agree with you in that the government has not always been fair in its policy towards Arab citizens. This is a problem, but is not something that cannot be fixed. I really think this is a two-way street. I am involved in many organizations including Israeli-Arab ones. You continuously renounce Israel in everyway possible, but when push comes to shove you have done relatively little to help improve the conditions of Arab towns. Instead of fighting mismanagement and embezzlement of monies in municipal bodies, you have fled the country. When people here see you demonizing Israel, meeting with the same people who actively seek our destruction, Jewish-Arab relations ultimately suffer. Why not promote tolerance and understanding between our communities? If you keep identifying yourself as "one" and us as the "other" nothing will happen.
"After all, it is not we, but Israeli Jews who immigrated to this land. Immigrants might be asked to give up their former identity in exchange for equal citizenship, but we are not immigrants." What is your argument here? I am not an immigrant I was born here just like you. You are no more native than I am. Are you trying to imply that Arabs have more rights to this land than Jews? Isn't this an extremist view? How many more lives both of Arabs and Jews must be lost to prove this isn't true. I think everybody knows that both people have equally important attachments to this land. Despite all of this, you continue to meet with Hezbollah and promote conflict—not peace—in the region. You say Hezbollah has more knowledge of Israel's Security than any Arab Knesset member would know. Obviously you know what they know, because you have met them on countless occasions. Perhaps you'd be willing to share upon arrival in Israel?
Won't make the Daily Show.
jb88gogg
You deny the bigotry that happens in your own country. Mr. Bashara must have hit a pretty important nerve for you to so bloviate. Maybe you can explain to me why in your country Arabs are called Israelie-Arabs, or Jewish-Arabs? While in America it's the other way around; African-American, Chinese-American,etc...,. The point I am trying to make here is that both of you fight for your thoughts based on the Religions' that you believe. It's these 'religions' that are destroying humankind. You people even believe in the same God, yet can't decide on who is the real prophet. What is interesting are the words I read in an article the other day in which the writer explains that after the death of Jesus, Christianity and Judaism were allowed to grow and flourish while under Arab rule. It's all a farce! Everythinig you believe in was written thousands of years ago by people who thought the Sun revolved around the Earth. Have you learned nothing?
jpbreeze
"You deny the bigotry that happens in your own country"
Maybe read my article before trying to respond. Arabs are full equal citizens and Israel is one of the only Middle Eastern countries where Arab women can vote. However I agree that attitudes towards Arab citizens in Israel have been far from perfect. I am not denying the plight of Palestinians nor any historical events. As a person who actually lives here, I want to see a better life here. How would denying something that exists help achieve peace? I am recognising such problems because ultimately they need to be solved one way or another.
Speaking of denying bigotry, your statement about Islamic rule is incorrect. Christians and Jews were not allowed to "flourish" as you mention. While they were not persecuted they were however treated as second-class citizens known as Dhimmi. Most historians agree that this treatment was better than, say, living under Christian Europe.
Nevertheless, it's a common misconception that this current conflict is based upon religion, especially for people who have never been here to simply rely on hearsay or the media. It isn't. Aren't you being the bigot by assuming we all believe in the same thing, and that we are fighting on deciding who is the real prophet? Actually, I wish things could be as simple as you describe them but they are not. It sounds like you have never been here before since most people are not actually religious fanatics. I myself am very secular.
You bring up an interesting point about the identity of Arab citizens in Israel. Nobody calls them "Israel-Arabs" or "Arab Jews" – there is no official name. Identity is something somebody decides for their self. Because the situation is complex and unique I would say that each Arab citizen of Israel has their own personal identity. Some may identify as Palestinians in Israel, others differently. It doesn't matter what somebody calls them because their identity ultimately is who they believe they are, not what somebody else believes.
"When Israel was established in 1948, more than 700,000 Palestinians were expelled or fled in fear"
Well, I stopped reading here.
This guy is as reliable as the "Protocols" were.
All the comments above are predictably repulsive.
'This guy is as reliable as the "Protocols" were.'
Yes, but this guy - Mr. Bashara - is (or was, now that he resigned) was an MP in the Knesset.
So, whether one likes what another person says or not, you can't simply "stop reading." You might not like certain things, but if people just "stop reading" or "stop caring" nothing will change.
jpbreeze,
I am sorry I didn't notice your comments. Your comments are
not repulsive
I am not surprised to see fd32 - a resident antisemite
I meant, of course, jb88gogg's comments are not repulsive.
jpbreeze's comments are ignorant, manipulative and repulsive
jb88gogg, I'm sorry
Several things:
- I happened to have a degree in Jewish history with emphasis on antisemitism.
- Personally, I don't feel like dealing with the guy, and I don't have to.
Eurobelle - I'm sorry too. Knowing you have much background, I understand your viewpoint.
Dear eurobelle and jb88gogg with a degree in Jewish history,
I picked up the first book I found to document the 1948 war, "A Captain's Mandate-Palestine 1946-48", written by Philip Brutton, a soldier who was there at the time. Page 164 where he says that after Israeli massacre of the village of Deir Yassin, "700,000 Palestinians fled", so keep on reading-perhaps about Palestinians, as well as Jews.
Dear eurobelle and jb88gogg with a degree in Jewish history,
I picked up the first book I found to document the 1948 war, "A Captain's Mandate-Palestine 1946-48″, written by Philip Brutton, a soldier who was there at the time. Page 164 where he says that after Israeli massacre of the village of Deir Yassin, "700,000 Palestinians fled", so keep on reading-perhaps about Palestinians, as well as Jews.
What is your point? I'm always reading and informing myself and I'm sure eurobelle does too. Of course I know about Deir Yassin.
Mr Bashara
Unlike most countries in the world, Israel is a country where religion is a factor; it goes against common logic, but so do 2000 years of exile and persecution for the Jews.
You are right that this creates inequality between Jews and Arabs in the country; this is why a 2 STATE solution is being discussed, so that Arabs/Palestinian may also find solace.
In 1947, India and Pakistan separated on the basis of RELIGION TOO, and a two state solution was implemented to have Muslim on one side and Hindus on the other. People AGREED to that for the sake of sanity and future generations. The same should happen between Israel and Palestine eventually.
I would suggest you stop hiding behind the plight of the Arab Israelis because despite existing problems, this DOES NOT justify you going as a member of a democratic government, to sell your country to the ennemy. If you are against Israel and want to abolish it, join the Palestinian in Gaza; have the integrity not to join the government!
In the meantime what you have done is Sabotage the fragile trust that exist between Arab and Jews. You add more fuel to the fire and compromise the well being of your own clan! Arab Israelis' reputation is stained because of you.
And for those here who refer to Israel as a non-democratic state, please spend a couple of hours in Syria, Saoudi Arabia, Iran, Afganistan and see what your experience of democratic justice is. I wonder if these folks would have the guts to question their own government's policies of war as is done now in Israel. That is an example of democracy.
Bashara, your life was not easy, but you fucked up big time! Now playing victim will not cover up for your mess.
Shame...
jb88gogg,
Dear Friend,
The first book is not necessary the best. Opening a page is nice, reading the entire book would be even better, reading many books would be even better, knowing that not all sources are equal etc.
It would be nice if you knew what preceded this tragic event (a hint - many, many more Jewish deaths), it would be nice if you knew the role Arab countries played in Palestinian exodus (a hint - misinformation, provocation), it would be nice if you didn't trust the number etc.
jb88gogg
Can I also recommend you read something about prejudices, double standards, selectivity etc.
If you believe in a "Higher Being" or God or whatever you want to call him/her/it then surely you all worship the same entity.
I am so glad to be Australian where we only argue over which is the better footy team or, which car is better -Holden or Ford-.
PJD,
I can assure there is a difference between puritans in this land, and Jews in Jerusalem. What can it be, what can it be that?
Dear Ladies and Gentlemen: I would like to recommend portions of the article, "Three Murderous Myths: an Exploration of War and Empire" posted at http://peacehq.tripod.com/peaceporridge2/PP-38.html
as pertinent to this discussion. Sincerely, -Yusha
Dear yusha,
An introduction to the piece and source would be welcome.
Otherwise .. good night.
Hi Eurobelle,
link your articles.
I think the main reason why the US aids Israel is that America sees Israel as a gateway towards westernizing the Middle East. That being said, imo, Israel has not right to exist. The Jews should all leave Israel just like all whites should leave Africa. There will never be peace in The Middle East as long as Israel remains and The US keeps aiding the state. Israel's existence also greatly fuels anti-semitism.
Zionism is a secular, imperialistic movement and has nothing to do with devout Judaism. Even orthodox jews don't believe there should be an Israel.
As far as the Christian right-wingers that support Israel go, well they really don't. Most of them think that all the Israelis will be destroyed in "The Final Days" after refusing to accept Christ. Pat Robertson and The 700 Club 'aint their friend.
" If you believe in a "Higher Being" or God or whatever you want to call him/her/it then surely you all worship the same entity. "
All monotheistic religions have a lot in common. Why are you assuming that we all believe in God?
I am so glad to be Australian where we only argue over which is the better footy team or, which car is better -Holden or Ford-.
Darryl - I've been to Australia, and I can tell you people are the same. People everywhere try to live normal lives and most people talk about superficial topics, like sports, the weather, cars, etc like you. Sad to see that you couldn't care about world affairs or other people's suffering. But I am glad to know that most Australians aren't like you in that regard.
OK, I glanced.
Sick, sick, sick, sick
jb,
If you want read Sir Martin Gilbert's Israel, or any other respectable history if Israel
" I think the main reason why the US aids Israel is that America sees Israel as a gateway towards westernizing the Middle East. "
Not really. If Israel's existence fuels anti-western sentiment as you say, then why would the US support it? Surely that would counter its goals of westernizing the Middle East. The US aids Israel out of sympathy towards the Jewish people.
"That being said, imo, Israel has not right to exist."
That's your opinion. The whole world, including the Arab League, recognizes the need for both an Israeli and Palestinian state living side by side in peace. Whether or not you consider a country the right to exist doesn't matter because if it exists, it exists. You are a bit too simplistic.
"The Jews should all leave Israel just like all whites should leave Africa"
I agree with you that the US causes much strife in today's world. Along your argument, maybe you should leave the US, and perhaps that might solve things.
"There will never be peace in The Middle East as long as Israel remains and The US keeps aiding the state.
Israel's existence also greatly fuels anti-semitism. "
So naive. Israel fuels anti-Semitism? Anti-Semitism has been around a lot longer than the modern state of Israel. The world's Jewish population was desacrated in WWII. How much more could anti-Semitism be fuelled after that? Anti-Semitism exists today because people of people like you that
hate Jews.
jb,
If you want read Sir Martin Gilbert's Israel, or any other respectable history if Israel
I have read his books. I am from Israel I have read countless books on the history of Israel. Lol
Ron,
I shouldn't even bother responding to you because you are a blatant anti-Semite, but I think there's a need because there are hundreds of absent-minded people out there like yourself.
There is no such thing as a Jew/Palestinian conflict. It's known as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just because somebody is Jewish doesn't mean they live in Israel.
"Before the 9/11 tragedy, I knew very little about the jew/Palestinian conflict and not much about jews and Palestinians either."
Before 9/11 you knew nothing. And today, almost 6 years later in May 2007, you still know very little. Sad!! So you think by looking in your 1980 edition of an Encylopaedia you know can self claim expertise on such a complex issue?
The name Palestine was given to the area by the Romans. It has always been known to Jews as Eretz Israel. People call places different names and such designated names are bound to change. If you think the plot of land you're sitting on will still be called the USA two-thousand years from now, the odds are against you.
I wish you the best luck in your "research." In terms of your racism, I don't know what to say. Seek councelling.
"Not really. If Israel's existence fuels anti-western sentiment as you say, then why would the US support it?"
The US does all sorts of things that fuel anti-American sentiment. But they don't care because it makes them money not to mention creates new enemies which gives them an excuse to go on more military adventures.
"Surely that would counter its goals of westernizing the Middle East."
No, not really. They want to help Israel expand and force all the Arabs out. All the easier to get that oil.
"The US aids Israel out of sympathy towards the Jewish people."
Bah. Yeah sure, a bunch of right-wing WASPS really care about Jews. Doesn't Buchanan support Israel? Is he a friend of the jews?
"That's your opinion. The whole world, including the Arab League, recognizes the need for both an Israeli and Palestinian state living side by side in peace."
It doesn't mean they are right. Yeah I'm sure they'll make great neighbors.
"Whether or not you consider a country the right to exist doesn't matter because if it exists, it exists. You are a bit too simplistic."
I think it's a bit simplistic to say, "Hey, we're Jews. We're God's Chosen People...and you're not! Get the heck out!"
"I agree with you that the US causes much strife in today's world. Along your argument, maybe you should leave the US, and perhaps that might solve things."
I have thought of leaving the US.
"So naive. Israel fuels anti-Semitism?"
Absolutely. Do you think the Arabs hate the Jews just 'cause they're different than they are?
"Anti-Semitism has been around a lot longer than the modern state of Israel."
No kidding. And Israel keep scratching that that boil.
"The world's Jewish population was desacrated in WWII."
No kidding. And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what's going on in Israel for a long time.
"How much more could anti-Semitism be fuelled after that?"
Oh I think it could be worse than that.
"Anti-Semitism exists today because people of people like you that
hate Jews."
LOL. I saw that one comin'. Criticize Israel and be labeled an "anti-semite". It's a familiar tactic. I guess Noam Chomsky is an anti-semite also. Ooops. Wait. He's a jew too.
Will Eisner and Stan Lee were/are jews also. I'd better burn all my Spirit hardcovers and my Marvel comics.
Uh-oh Jack Kirby was a jew.
Neturei Karta must be anti-semites also.
I think it's a bit simplistic to say, "Hey, we're Jews. We're God's Chosen People…and you're not! Get the heck out!"
"And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what's going on in Israel for a long time. "
Criticize Israel and be labeled an "anti-semite".
That is anti-Semitic because you are not criticising Israel, you are making a derogatory statement about the Jewish people. You are faulting every single Jewish person on the planet. Nobody ever said "we're Jews. Get the heck out!" Don't know where you got that one.
You're right. Noam Chomsky is obviously not anti-Semitic. That would be sad if he was since he is Jewish. I haven't heard him talk about Jews the way you do. I agree with much of what he says. It's perfectly fine to criticise Israel.
But anyway I saw your myspace and you're one nasty fuck!! So I can see how things might not be screwed on right in your brain
"That is anti-Semitic because you are not criticising Israel, you are making a derogatory statement about the Jewish people. You are faulting every single Jewish person on the planet. Nobody ever said "we're Jews. Get the heck out!" Don't know where you got that one."
That's essentially what's going on in Israel.
I'm not demonizing jews. Stop it. You know that. Zionism is the problem.
"You're right. Noam Chomsky is obviously not anti-Semitic. That would be sad if he was since he is Jewish. I haven't heard him talk about Jews the way you do. I agree with much of what he says. It's perfectly fine to criticise Israel."
How do I talk about jews? I don't hate them, and you know that.
"But anyway I saw your myspace and you're one nasty fuck!! So I can see how things might not be screwed on right in your brain."
A personal attack. How nice.
"How do I talk about jews? I don't hate them, and you know that"
No I don't know that. I don't know anything about you. Nor do I want to!! I am just reading what you said.
By the way, how is saying "Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust" not anti-Semitic? You're not saying" Israel is hiding behind the Holocaust," you're saying the Jews are. There's a difference. Neturei-Carta would not say something like that.
I think it's disgusting Myspace lets people your age register. You say you're 33 but I can't tell from the skin head. I'd place you around 40 something. You're probably some weird pedophile stalking teenage girls online. I hope that's not actually your real picture because I don't know how anybody could have the balls to put something that ugly on their profile. That's enough to break a monitor.
"No I don't know that. I don't know anything about you. Nor do I want to!! I am just reading what you said.
By the way, how is saying "Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust" not anti-Semitic?"
I said in regards to Israel. Yes a lot of them do that. They use the Holocaust as an excuse to persecute the Palestinians. I didn't say ALL jews do that. Not all jews believe that what's going on there is right.
"You're not saying" Israel is hiding behind the Holocaust, you're saying the Jews are. There's a difference. Neturei-Carta would not say something like that."
Ok then, Israel. I apologize. But aren't Israelis jews?
"I think it's disgusting Myspace lets people your age register. You say you're 33 but I can't tell from the skin head. I'd place you around 40 something."
What? Oh please. I am 33. I can scan a birth certificate if you like.
"You're probably some weird pedophile stalking teenage girls online."
I have never contacted anyone under 18. Most of the people I've met and conversed with are over 23. Please. Stop with the Dateline paranoia and the insults.
"I hope that's not actually your real picture because I don't know how anybody could have the balls to put something that ugly on their profile. That's enough to break a monitor."
Again, another personal attack. Aren't we getting off-topic here anyway? Is this about my looks or about Israel?
And btw, I am not a skinhead or neo-nazi or anything like that. If I was being inflammatory, I apologize. If anything, part of the reason I am against Israel is because I am concerned about jews. I mean, they're surrounded by people who hate them. And it's not an irrational hatred unfortunately.
Look I know this is an emotional topic, and Lord knows that the jews have been through hell also. But that doesn't excuse what they're doing to the Middle East.
I'll also say that this is a reason why many people don't criticize Israel. They're afraid of being branded as anti-semites. And people often bring up the Holocaust, as if that genocide exempts Jews/Israel from criticism. That's what I meant about hiding behind the Holocaust.
When you say "the Jews are hiding behind the Holocaust" you are not criticising Israel the country or its government, you are criticising Jews. Period. If that's what you meant about hiding behind the Holocaust, then why did you say it in that way? If people are afraid about being anti-Semitic then they shouldn't make anti-Semitic statements. Criticism of Israel is not the same thing as criticism of Jews.
Yes many Israelis are Jewish, but over one fifth are Arab, Muslim, Christian, and Druze. So you can't say that Israelis and Jews are synonymous because they aren't. The MK in this article is Christian and Arab, but also Israeli. These people are citizens and vote.
Please spare me the "concerned about Jews." Obviously you aren't because you say that "Israel has not right to exist. The Jews should all leave Israel." In essence, you discount Jews and their history by denying the right to self determiniation and by denying their link to the land.
One country invading another and making life difficult for the original inhabitants. So what's new. My forefathers did it and I have no doubt that my forefathers forefathers did it and, as I am of Irish decent, know for a fact that it has been done to my forefathers. Heck I watched a program on TV the other day which had one group of chimpanzees making a raid into another groups territory to kill and eat them and possibly increase their territory.
For 50 years I thought the problems in Ireland would never be resolved. Goes to show the saying "Time heals all wounds" does apply.
I do know, debating/arguing about it on this forum will not resolve the conflict that unfortunately currently exists and will only serve to divide opinions further.
As I said. I am so glad to be Australian and distant from the problems that both sides are experiencing. Unfortunately, history indicates that Australia will suffer the same problems in the future.
"I do know debating/arguing about it on this forum will not resolve the conflict that unfortunately currently exists and will only serve to divide opinions further."
What is wrong with debate? Of course debating here won't resolve the conflict. If anything, by not voicing any concern one does just as much farm.
As I said. I am so glad to be Australian and distant from the problems that both sides are experiencing.
Yeah, that basically sums up the reason why conflicts continue. As long as you are rich and happy in your bubble far away from everything, you have nothing to worry. So you do nothing.
"history indicates that Australia will suffer the same problems in the future."
History doesn't indicate much about the future. What people do has more of an impact than what happened in the past. Australia won't suffer the same problems if people do something about it, instead of reminding themselves how "lucky" they are to be far away from strife.
*harm
"When you say "the Jews are hiding behind the Holocaust" you are not criticising Israel the country or its government, you are criticising Jews."
Ok I'm criticizing Jews then. Is that a bad thing? Besides, you'd think that after experiencing discrimination themselves that they'd know better.
"Period. If that's what you meant about hiding behind the Holocaust, then why did you say it in that way?"
I dunno man. Maybe you're just overly sensitive and looking for anti-semitism so as to make the opposition look bad.
Is it offensive to regard Nazis as Germans? Colonialists as whites?
"If people are afraid about being anti-Semitic then they shouldn't make anti-Semitic statements."
I didn't say anything anti-semitic. It's not as if I believe jews are money-hungry hooknosed monsters. I just don't like that Jews are doing to Arabs and vice versa. However, Jews are killing a lot more Arabs than Arabs are Jews.
"Criticism of Israel is not the same thing as criticism of Jews."
Well considering that's who makes up most of the Israeli population...
"Yes many Israelis are Jewish, but over one fifth are Arab, Muslim, Christian, and Druze."
That's a relatively small number.
"So you can't say that Israelis and Jews are synonymous because they aren't."
They kinda are. It was created for them.
"The MK in this article is Christian and Arab, but also Israeli. These people are citizens and vote."
And they're also being treated as second-class citizens by Jews.
"Please spare me the "concerned about Jews." Obviously you aren't because you say that "Israel has not right to exist. The Jews should all leave Israel.""
No I am concerned. I don't want anymore Jews or Arabs to die. As long as Israel exists, death will continue to plague the Middle East.
"In essence, you discount Jews and their history by denying the right to self determiniation and by denying their link to the land."
But didn't most come there from Europe?
"Ok I'm criticizing Jews then. Is that a bad thing?"
Is being racist a bad thing? That's for you to decide.
" dunno man. Maybe you're just overly sensitive and looking for anti-semitism so as to make the opposition look bad. " Is that a conspiracy? I don't care how the opposition looks. You would be overly sensitive too if you were Jewish, but since you aren't you can't fully comprehend.
"I didn't say anything anti-semitic."
Your quote: And the Jews have been hiding behind the Holocaust as justification for what's going on in Israel for a long time.
You said that you "didn't say ALL jews do that." Show me how that is not portrayed here?
But didn't most come there from Europe?
Many came from Europe. But also other places. Approximiately 700,000 fled/were expelled from neighbouring Arab countries. Jews originally are a Levant civilization, ie. based in the Middle East. Jews were expelled from Palestine after the Romans.
"That's a relatively small number."
I don't view 2 million people as a small number.
"They kinda are. It was created for them"
Kinda are? Kinda not. A Jewish person living in Nebraska is not Israeli.
"And they're also being treated as second-class citizens by Jews. "
How are Jews all over the world treating them as second-class citizens? I already mentioned that I've acknowledged the problems of sentiment towards Arab citizens in previous replies.
"I don't want anymore Jews or Arabs to die. As long as Israel exists, death will continue to plague the Middle East."
This shows you know little about the area. Both Arabs and Jews will achieve peace here. Making people "run away" or flee will not solve anything.
racism and anti-semitism are discriminatory behaviours but criticism is not discriminatory - it's important to keep a clear mind on this or the debate becomes derailed
The days of Zionists controlling the U.S.'s foreign policy while silencing critics with the absurd blanket charge of "anti-semitism" might be at the beginning of its end. It will take a lot of free thinking people to make it happen, but I hope it does. The cruelty of Zionism may finally be seen for what it truly is - not a refuge for an oppressed people - but a ruthless imperial conquest, done under the banner of religion (and largely with American money and political capital). Zionists are a cancer, plain and simple.
Not all Zionists are Jews, and not all Jews are Zionists, so I resent the ramblings about "the Jew" above. Such bigotry is dangerous and simple-minded. Separate "Zionism" from "Judaism," and again from the Jewish people. They are not the same things. Many of the commentors above would do well to understand that.