Twelve Steps to Cutting Poverty in Half

Last Wednesday, at the Center for American Progress (CAP) in Washington, the CAP Task Force on Poverty released the results of fourteen months of work in its report, From Poverty to Prosperity: A National Strategy to Cut Poverty in Half.

The report offers twelve concrete recommendations to reduce over the next ten years, creating a stronger middle class and setting our country on a course to end American poverty in a generation.

Sen. Edward Kennedy and Rep. Charles Rangel, chairman of the Ways and Means Committee, were both on hand to pledge their leadership on what Task Force co-chair Peter B. Edelman, professor of Law at Georgetown University, called “a national shame…. There should be no one [in this country] who’s poor.”

This is one of the great scandals of our times. In the richest industrialized nation in the world, 37 million Americans–one in eight citizens–live below the official poverty line (just $19,971 income for a family of four); in 2005, more than 90 million Americans had incomes below 200 percent of the poverty threshold (less than $40,000 for a family of four); the United States ranks 24th out of 25 developed nations in the share of the population with an income below 50 percent of the national median income–and the US is dead last among 24 rich nations when the same measurement is used to assess child poverty. Nearly 20 percent of American children are poor, and it’s estimated that allowing children to grow up in persistent poverty costs our economy $500 billion per year. Lastly, income inequality has reached record highs and is getting worse.

“From 1947 to 1973, we saw every economic quintile growing together, and those at the lowest level were growing the fastest,” Kennedy said. “In 1980, with President Reagan, you see the beginning of growing apart…And now, those at the lowest end of the ladder are not even keeping up while there is an explosion at the highest level.”

In fact, the post-tax income of the top 1 percent rose $145,500 between 2003 and 2004; it rose just $200 for the bottom fifth during that same period.

“The goal to cut poverty in half over the next [ten] years is not an overly ambitious task when you look at what other industrialized countries are doing,” Kennedy said. He noted that Great Britain has raised its minimum wage to $9.78 an hour and brought 900,000 children and 2.5 million workers out of poverty in the last three years. Ireland has reduced childhood poverty by 40 percent with a minimum wage of $9.60.

“No single measure is going to answer the problem,” Kennedy said. “But nonetheless we can see how important it is that we put [actions] together… [The Task Force] summary of what we can do to move a whole group of our fellow citizens forward makes enormous sense.”

“With the exception of getting the hell out of the Middle East,” Rangel said, “I can’t think of anything more patriotic that we can do than eliminate poverty.”

Edelman said that the Task Force worked hard to pull out some key points from the extensive list of what needs to be done to address poverty. It was not a top-down process, he said, but rather a response to what people in diverse communities feel is needed.

“The focus here is not just what we technically call ‘poverty’ in this country,” said Edelman. “That’s a concept that’s deeply flawed. Thirty-seven million people is bad enough. But when you take the idea that an income of a little bit over $15,000 gets a family of three out of poverty, an income of $20,000 gets a family of four out of poverty, it’s a really bad joke. It’s not true. In vast, vast, vast parts of this country, when you get a dollar over those numbers, you’re not out of poverty. And so this report is really about everybody in this country who’s having a difficult time… who has trouble making ends meet, who has trouble paying the bills at the end of the month…Who has to make a decision whether or not to go see a physician for something quite important because they’re not sure that they’re going to [be able to] pay for it. And so really this report is about roughly 90 million people whose incomes are up to twice the poverty line… all the way down to the bottom–those nearly 16 million people who have incomes below half the poverty line–below $7,500 for a family of three–astonishing! And that’s gone up by over 3 million people under the current administration. Our focus is on full inclusion in this country for everybody who has a tough time.”

The twelve recommendations revolve around four core principles: promote decent work that pays enough to avoid poverty, meet basic needs, and save for the future; provide opportunity for all–maximizing people’s opportunities for success from childhood through adulthood; ensure economic security so that no American falls into poverty when work is unavailable, unstable, or doesn’t pay enough to make ends meet; and help people build wealth so that they can weather periods of flux and have the resources that may be essential to upward mobility.

Here are key excerpts from the twelve recommendations:

1. Over a 10-year period, raise and index the minimum wage to half the average hourly wage–that would presently be $8.40 an hour. The report notes that for most of the 1960’s and 1970’s a worker with a full-time minimum wage job could lift a family of three above the poverty line. Now it’s at its lowest level in real terms since 1959.

2. Expand the Earned Income Tax Credit and Child Tax Credit. The EITC is an earnings supplement that raises incomes and helps low-income working families build assets. The Task Force recommends tripling the EITC for childless workers and expanding help to larger working families. The Child Tax Credit provides a tax credit of up to $1,000 per child but provides no help to the poorest families. It should be made fully refundable so that it’s available to all low- and moderate-income families. (Currently people with incomes below $10,000 do not receive this credit. “Totally absurd,” Edelman said. “This is a powerful anti-poverty step…. It will get over 3 million people out of poverty just from that one, single public policy step alone.”) Doing all of the above would move as many as 5 million people out of poverty.

3. Promote unionization by enacting the Employee Free Choice Act. This would require employers to recognize a union after a majority of workers signs cards authorizing union representation. “It’s very important that we get this legislation enacted this year,” Edelman said. “Unions are absolutely a backbone of getting fair labor standards and fair wages in our country.”

4. Guarantee child care assistance to low-income families and promote early education for all. Federal and state governments should guarantee child care help to families with incomes below about $40,000 a year. “We’re not going to achieve this unless communities take the initiative with civic leadership to pull that together,” Edelman said. “We would have an Innovation Fund as part of that effort.” The funding would be about twice the level of current federal funding for quality state initiatives. This childcare expansion would raise employment among low-income parents and help nearly 3 million parents and children escape poverty.

5. Create 2 million new “opportunity” housing vouchers, and promote equitable development in and around central cities. Nearly 8 million Americans live in neighborhoods where at least 40 percent of residents are poor. We should seek to end such concentrated poverty. Over the next ten years, the federal government should fund 2 million new “opportunity vouchers” designed to help people live in opportunity-rich areas. “The housing vouchers that we currently have reach only a quarter of the people who are eligible,” Edelman said. “People should also be able to choose where they live, they should be able to live near the jobs and get to the jobs.” Any new affordable housing should be in communities with employment opportunities and high-quality public services, or in gentrifying communities.

6. Connect disadvantaged and disconnected youth with school and work. About 1.7 million poor youth ages 16 to 24 were out of school and out of work in 2005. The federal government should restore Youth Opportunity Grants to help the most disadvantaged communities and expand funding for effective and promising youth programs–with the goal of reaching 600,000 disadvantaged youth through these efforts. A new Upward Pathway program would offer low-income young people opportunities to train in fields that are in high-demand and provide needed public services.

7. Simplify and expand Pell Grants and make higher education accessible to residents of each state. Low-income youth are much less likely to attend college than their higher income peers, even among those of comparable abilities. Pell Grants play a crucial role for lower-income students. The Pell grant application process should be simplified, and the grants gradually raised to reach 70 percent of the average costs of a four-year public institution. States should develop strategies to make post-secondary education affordable for all residents, following promising models already underway in a number of states.

8. Help former prisoners find stable employment and reintegrate into their communities. The United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world–600,000 prisoners are released to their communities each year. Most are low-income, minority men returning to high-poverty communities. Two-thirds are rearrested within three years and about half return to prison. States should not bar former prisoners from receiving public benefits like food stamps or deny them the right to vote. All states should develop comprehensive reentry services aimed at reintegrating former prisoners with full-time, consistent employment.

9. Ensure equity for low-wage workers in the Unemployment Insurance system. Approximately 35 percent of the unemployed, and a smaller share of unemployed low-wage workers, receive unemployment insurance benefits. States should reform eligibility rules that screen out low-wage workers, broaden eligibility for part-time workers and workers who have lost employment as a result of compelling family circumstances, and allow benefits to continue when workers are in programs that upgrade their skills and qualifications.

10. Modernize means-tested benefits programs to develop a coordinated system that helps workers and families.A functional safety net should help people get into or return to work and ensure a decent level of living for those who cannot work or are temporarily between jobs. Our current system fails to do so. The government should simplify and improve benefits access for working families and improve services to individuals with disabilities. The Food Stamp Program should be strengthened to improve benefits, eligibility, and access. And the Temporary Assistance for Needy Families Program should be reformed to shift its focus from cutting caseloads to helping needy families find sustainable employment.

11. Reduce the high costs of being poor and increase access to financial services.Lower-income families often pay more than middle and high-income families for the same consumer products. Federal and state governments should address the foreclosure crisis through expanded mortgage assistance programs and by new federal legislation to curb unscrupulous practices. The federal government should also establish a $50 million Financial Fairness Innovation Fund to support state efforts to broaden access to mainstream goods and financial services in predominantly low-income communities.

12. Expand and simplify the Saver’s Credit to encourage saving for education, homeownership and retirement. For many families, saving for purposes such as education, a home, or a small business is key to making economic progress. The federal “Saver’s Credit” (a relatively new tax provision which matches voluntary contributions to retirement savings accounts with a tax credit) should be reformed to make it fully refundable. This Credit should also be broadened to apply to other savings vehicles such as individual development accounts, children’s saving accounts, and college savings plans.

The Urban Institute studied the impact of just four of the Task Force recommendations–the minimum wage, EITC, child tax credit, and child care assistance expansion–and found that together they would reduce poverty by 26 percent, more than halfway toward the ten year goal.

The combined cost of the twelve recommendations is approximately $90 billion a year. The current annual costs of the Bush tax cuts (skewed for the wealthy) enacted in 2001 and 2003 are approximately $400 billion. In 2008, the value of tax cuts solely for households exceeding an annual income of $200,000 is projected to be $100 billion.

“Making a commitment to cut poverty in half in a ten year period is a bold goal,” said Angela Glover Blackwell, Task Force co-chair and Founder and CEO of PolicyLink. “This isn’t just about lamenting the fact that we have so much poverty, this is about doing something about it, and doing something in a time period that people can measure and hold us to…. Also, this report comes at a time when the mayors, when the faith institutions, the civic organizations, are all looking at what we’re going to do about poverty… [So it] comes into an atmosphere in which Americans are saying ‘we can do something about this’.”

“What we need here is a massive effort to reach out both through every communications method and the grassroots,” Edelman said. “Maude Hurd, National President of ACORN is a member of the Task Force–they work with millions of people around the country who are struggling for economic justice. [We are] working with the unions–Linda Chavez-Thompson [(Executive Vice President of the AFL-CIO)], was on the Task Force…with faith-based groups…This has got to reach all around the country and people need to own it, and bring it back, and say this is what we have to do…We know what to do, we know what it will accomplish. The question is the political will. Are we as a nation going to do what we should be doing?”

Katrina Vanden Huevel is editor of The Nation.

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47 Comments so far

Kerry the losertarian May 1st, 2007 11:48 am

Calling attention to people stuggling in our economy is laudable but to call a family of four raise on 40,000 dollar year poor while people in africa make it on less than a dollar a day is an insult. Besides many of these policies increase poverty. The minimum wage makes employees more expensive therefore less employees are hired. Miminimum wage laws as well as other onerous requirments to go into business in this country (many put in place by Unions with the expressed intention of keeping pool of workers artifically small) are the reason those 40% plus poverty neighborhoods don’t have lots of official low wage/low cost business bringing economic and experience opprtunities.

Kerry the losertarian May 1st, 2007 11:50 am

P.S. alot of those restrictions were also put in to place by the wealthy business owners and special interest lobbies in order to reduce competition. Welfare fro the rich is even more morally deplorable and harmful to America than welfare to the poor. I want to get rid of both

tj May 1st, 2007 12:01 pm

This program to decrease poverty, while well-intentioned and pointed in a good direction, is much too timid, overly-complicated and fails to get at the structural roots of poverty in our economy.

1) The minimum wage should be a livable wage. PERIOD. (We’re talking about just getting up over the edge of the poverty line here, not even approaching what most people call “middle class.”)

Anything less is literal wage slavery and exploitive. $8.40/hr for a family is simply not real. Currently, a livable wage for individuals is about $7.50/hr. For a family of four it is about $10.00/hour. Indexing is absolutely the right thing to do. NOTE: The proposed current minimum wage increase to $7.25/hr. by 2009 (which has not yet become law) is also more spin than anything else.

2) The reliance on tax credits is too confusing and clumsy for most people. Many poor people do not file at returns all. Nor should they have to. A guaranteed annual wage makes more sense and is less costly to administer and more efficient. Remember Dick Nixon’s $8,000.00/year proposal? What would that be now, indexed for inflation?

3) National Health Insurance is a must. It’s a no-brainer. The country could save tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars per year and EVERYONE could receive comprehensive health insurance (further lowering costs of health care and generally making people feel better, more creative and productive and less destructive).

4) The proposal does not mention income or wealth distribution, which is at the heart of the problem. Both can be addressed with a truly progressive tax system. If we just returned to the tax rates and structures of the 1950s-60s, we would be drowning in cash for all kinds of human needs.

5) The military and prison budgets can be severely slashed with ZERO negative effects on personal or national safety and security.

6) A public jobs program, with a livable wage and health insurance could do more than anything else to alleviate poverty. There are all kinds of good, useful, REAL jobs that need to be done in terms of education, human care, producing environmentally sustainable goods and services, etc. Does anybody remember the WPA or CCC? I live in Austin, TX where we have a number of WPA swim facilities and parks, which contribute mightily to the health and well-being of the area three-quarters of a century after they were built. Pretty damned efficient use of tax dollars, I’d say.

7) Social Security must be protected and expanded. A disproportionate number of poor are those of us getting up in age, or those who have been disabled (in many cases because we don’t have proper health care). The simplest fix is to raise or take the cap off of payroll taxes. A more progressive fix would be to change the SSI tax to an income, rather than payroll tax. Also all income should be taxed as income, including dividends, investments and the other tools of the rich.

Talking about personal savings when you don’t have enough to make basic needs is absurd.

It is truly disappointing when a progressive publication, such as the Nation, veers away from engaging ideas for progressive change; and instead it proposes a liberal free-market program that fails to address economic fundamentals, while merely serving to obfuscate structural economic realities.

To put it more personally, would anyone at the Nation, which is based in one of the highest-cost areas of the world, seriously consider this proposed poverty-alleviation program for themselves or their loved ones?

Crow May 1st, 2007 12:58 pm

Riddle me this LOSERtaraian if a high minimum wage leads to stagnant employment conditions why is Ireland’s economy booming when their minimum wage is 9.60/hour? Further why did Henry Ford raise the wages of his workers so they could afford to buy his cars? Do you dare to answers these questions about basic reality LOSERtarian?

ezeflyer May 1st, 2007 1:05 pm

13. Make Mike Gravel President

Bandjineer May 1st, 2007 1:17 pm

There are certain “economic structural realities” neglected in the 12 steps that should be addressed. Step 5: “Create housing vouchers, and promote equitable development in and around central cities”, is closest in this regard.

The economic element which contributes most to our rising cost of living and to the degradation of natural and human environment is transport. Much of our travel is luxury, much is ineffecient and wasteful, much is a tool the powerful use to structure economies in their favor - Big business control over Small business, the global economy over local, regional, state and national economies.

At the metropolitian level, is there any doubt that the automobile has outgrown its own utility? Are their marauding hoards not a gross inefficiency? Aren’t the costs of maintaining their part in modern economies much too high?

At the international level, hasn’t global trade dreadfully weakened economies of smaller, though not less important, economic structures?

Poverty results when economic structures fail. In most US cities, ‘white flight’ to the suburbs was enabled by the motorcar. Most suburban economies cannot function optimally with or even without a myriad of personal motorized vehicles. Suburbs outlaw anything within walking and bicycling distances, and their development pattern makes mass transit impractical to arrange.

Such faulty economic structural development of communities adds most to the cost of living. Modern societies must begin to perceive cars as a utilitarian device preventing rather than promoting progress. And don’t get me started on luxury air travel. What, are the places we live so horribly arranged, we must escape to exotic locales where looking close enough find most of them as stultifying boring as the places we’re trying to flee and forget?

Fundamental economic structuring can build beautiful communities that naturally provide plenty of opportunity and occupation at unbelievably low costs for everyone.

alan hurwitz May 1st, 2007 2:24 pm

While I am anything but a “reformist,” [I like to think of myself as a radical rpogressive] I have long had what I think would be the most effecient reform measure for achieving a far more equitable distribution of wealth.

Impose a 100% tax on all income that exceeds 20 times the poverty rate. Doing so would create an absolute incentive for the wealthy to see to it that the income of the poor rises, for the ability of the wealthy to accumulate more would be directly tied to an increase in the income of those at the economic bottom.

Kerry the losertarian May 1st, 2007 2:56 pm

The minimum wage is not the only thing that hurts business. Ireland is kicking ass because of low (well lower) taxes which are easier to compute and a very weak regulatory structure. Furthermore the EU acts as a tariff wall around the continent. Ireland is the most economically conservative (american terminology they would probably call it liberal or neoliberal) nonformer communist country in Europe. They also avoid lots of little seemingly silly government interventions that have turned alot of other Euroconomies into stagnant pools. If we did that to our economy we wouldn’t need a minimum wage as full employment would bid up the wage for mcdonalds janitor to $20/hr and only then if he was severly handicapped and couldn’t work elsewhere.

Tijuanalibre May 1st, 2007 3:53 pm

Ireland’s minimum wage appears high because the dollar is very low against the Euro. In terms of Purchasing Power Parity (a term a lot of the illiterates whining about capitalism probably do not even understand) it is actually lower than the $7.50 an hour minimum in California.

observer May 1st, 2007 5:28 pm

To all:

To-day is the May Day, the International Day of the Working Men Solidarity.

Workers of the world, those who sell their skills and brains, unite!

abuelito May 1st, 2007 6:48 pm

This is just wonderful. The richest country in the world is already hogging half the earth’s resources. And every day 20,000 people in the Global South die of hunger. You want “great scandal of our times”? I’ll give you great scandal lady. The insufferable greed and selfishness of the rich countries that is keeping the rest of the world hungry.

eurobelle May 1st, 2007 7:03 pm

Tj
great post.
I spent a lot of time being irritated by some libertarian /Rovian invaders somewhere else, while you guys …

I always laugh when some dumb a-s pushes some jingoistic garbage “the best, the riches etc.” in one paragraph, and “we
can’t afford health care,” or “we can’t afford public transportation” in the other.

eurobelle May 1st, 2007 7:19 pm

Frankly, I really I don’t understand how one can talk in 2007
about reducing poverty and strengthening the middle class without mentioning the universal health care.

Paul M May 1st, 2007 8:56 pm

My suggestion is to pay any adult $1000 if they will agree to be sterilised. Preferably in the form of a single-use ATM card so they can get the money straight away.

Even better - start by offerring $200, and raise it to $500 and then $1000 after a couple of years.

Dr. Zimmerman Robert May 1st, 2007 9:01 pm

More thoughts on the community needs:

1. A middle class wage is our base wage.
2. Gross tax rate with no deductions on a progressive scale
3. Free Universal Healthcare
4. Asset tax to replace sales tax
5. Military budgets and departments based on defense needs as all military contractors are nationalized for the benefit of the public good.
6. Entry level workers shall have work or work training through the local levels community needs assessment
7. Social Security and Medicare shall allow quality retirement
8. Local food cooperatives to create affordable high quality food. Local food production primary to each community integrated with farm labor planning.
9. Free universal education
10. Housing developed for humanity and for all.

Dr. Zimmerman Robert May 1st, 2007 9:12 pm

tj May 1st, 2007 12:01 pm
It is better to have rich people like Katrina Vanden Huevel coming our way a little than not at all. Let’s try to embrace everyone so we can all put our shoulders to the wheel together.

eurobelle May 1st, 2007 9:16 pm

Tj for president

plantman13 May 1st, 2007 11:25 pm

One might also note that Ireland is not supporting a massive military-industrial complex!!! The beast Ike warned us about long ago robs us all. Guns and bombs do not contribute to the welfare of society. Until we stop wasting our money on them we will suffer. Norway has one of the highest standards of living in the world. They care for their needy and advance the common good…all without stripping other nations of their resources in order to maintain a burgeoning military. This is the reson the terrorists hate us. They’re sure not attacking Norway.

iwarrior May 2nd, 2007 12:19 am

Twelve Steps to Killing Poverty

1.Institute a LIVING WAGE. 10 bucks an hour.
2.Universal quality free health care.
3.Universal quality free education including college and trades.
4.Reparations.
5.Legalize all drugs and regulate them.
6.No more corporate welfare.
7.Dismantle the Star Wars program.
8.No more military adventures. Pull all troops out. End war.
9.End NAFTA and GATT.
10.Eliminate the income tax and replace it with the flat sales tax. Or at the very least, make the wealthy pay their fair damn share.
11.Stop sending jobs overseas and importing cheap labor.
12.Forgive third world debt.

That’s the best I can do.

moneylender May 2nd, 2007 1:41 am

There are a lot of people out there who want true and a free society.Those were the very ideals Hotchi Min expressed when he took power.The powers that be did not want Vietnam to be a true democracy, the rest is history, but it should be remembered that more bombs were dropped in Vietnam that the whole of the second world war. Children are even to day suffering from the effects of Agent Orange, the US has NOT paid a cent in compensation to the victims to date is spite of the relenless campaigin by friends of Vietnam from the U.S and Europe.That’s what the leaders of Venezuela are trying to create power from the bottom up wards
You cannot create any fair society with out addressing the question of MONEY SUPPLY.As long as we allow Private Banks to create money out of NOTHING as a exponential compound interest bearing DEBT we will all remain enslaved from cradle to the grave.”If you want to be a slave and pay the cost of your own slavery, let the banks create the money’
”Let me control and issue a nations’ currency, I care not who writes its laws”
Money will go into manufacture of Arms which will be used against the people to suppress them, press will be used to peddle false hood, elected representatives will be bought off from creating a true democracy.
Once the Money Supply is in the hands of the people, where the elected representatives are the sole distributors of the funds for productive capacity that will benefit every one, then you may be on a far better world

Illusion, yes the American people are living in an illusion as they are enslaved from cradle to the grave as the rest of the world.The Out Standing Market Credit Debt of that country in the last count stood at $76.63Trillion dollars, the Government will never be able to service the loan let alone repay the capital. Every day this amount is reflected in the books it accrues exponential compound interest. The US lives on a daily overdraft of Billions from the People’s Bank of China (a turn up for the books), and others.

Every thing and every body in the US is owned by private banks, and you pay interest on every thing on money created out of NOTHING

But in the first world fed on rubbish both in mind and body, just to be healthy to be Cannon fodders to fight some one Else’s war. In the Third World Eight million children die every year, that’s one child for every THREE SECONDS this has gone on for decades the holocaust is alive and well.

As long as Banks create money out of NOTHING as a compound interest bearing DEBT to finance wars where the profit margins are better than anything on offer you are in a vicious cycle of violence.
The arms industry is the most subsidised industry in any country, especially in the US..

So you can ‘ELECT’ any party of any colour, it wold not matter an iota

Peace is profitless.
As the Late Lord Hailsm, the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales pointed out, that we live in a tripartite totalitarian dictatorship; Press, Elected and Financial.
Interest is NOT necessary or inevitable, this insidious and invidious imposition on humankind should be abolished immediately and can be abolished
We are told we are all free and live in a democracy. People can be fooled all the time.
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” - George W. Bush

klever May 2nd, 2007 4:17 am

This was a wonderful thread. Everyone had cogent well-intentioned remarks. Then-MtnGoat did apparently take the day off!
I cherish CommonDreams but sometimes there is a tendency to nitpick one another’s opinions.All third party or Progressive movements need to guard against that.It’s much easier for the CREEPs-[ Corporations-Raping-Extracting-Exploiting-&Plundering] to mobilize because it’s all about greed for them.
Was especially interested in the mention of reparations.Could it possibly be more effective to attack the wealth of those corporations and families who were slavers-the companies go to the employees whose ancestors were not offenders.Might not a victory here put all miscreants on notice and improve behavior quickly?
A tangential thought-the pols and the CREEPS WILL pull the plug on the net if they feel threatened enough. The Howard Dean situation alerted them. What then?

greedypeople May 2nd, 2007 9:15 am

Nothing about keeping corporate greed in check? Raising the minium wage only helps for a little while as prices go up up up. A corporation is not a person and should not have the rights of a person. So the discrepancy between the CEO’s salary and the average worker’s salary is both nauseating and laughable. And yet we have come to think of it as “business as usual.”

evelyna May 2nd, 2007 9:41 am

Universal healthcare and lower taxation. Why should people in local communities have to pay excessive taxes to own property. Why should non property owners have to pay taxes when they do not get deductions like property owners?
1099 everyone and raise the hourly wages. Let people write off everything themselves. Why pay into social security if they are not to deliver as promised?
Create co-ops where people can go into business and buy things via a group.

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 10:11 am

greedy,
This nonsense - corporation as cute babies - should be ended. This country can’t be a chief clown on the planet.
But Tj’s suggestions + some more (VACATIONS, for example)
are good.
When you limit exploitation, sick salaries of criminal CEO’s
go down. In spite of what some economists say “We don’t know why the CEOs ..,” we do know. I am not an economist, but I think it’s safely to say that when you pay employees living wage, when they work 35-40 instead of 70 (paid for 40), when they take their vacations instead of enriching criminal (i.e. collaborating), then we’ll see more normal salaries at the top.

Poet May 2nd, 2007 10:13 am

KerrytheLosertartian opined:

Calling attention to people stuggling in our economy is laudable but to call a family of four raise on 40,000 dollar year poor while people in africa make it on less than a dollar a day is an insult.

*****************

Yes and no. Because those Africans are not planted in US culture with its distractions, dislocations, and expectations your analogy is a lot like comparing apples to oranges.

I gaurantee you were those Africans born and raised here they would be facing the exact same problems in the exact same proportions as Americans do because humanity beneath the skin is more similar than disimilar.

That being said, the economic proposals of Ms. Van Den Heuval are not a “cure for poverty” they are only emergency stop gsap measures. The cure is to change our distractions (advertising and mass media for instance)dislocations (happy motoring car culture, disintegration of extended families and toleration of constant commuting and moves in pursuit of employment), and expectations (accumulation of things instead of cultivation of relationships, the making of crap that is thrown only to be replaced by new crap rather than maintained and repaired.

Until we see that our connection to each other is more important than the accumulation of things and our focused attention is more precious than the accumulation of things we will always be impoveriushed no matter what we possess or how busy we are.

Marat May 2nd, 2007 10:14 am

This is a major issue in this country, because we refuse to wake up and admit that uncontrolled capitalism is a flawed and failing system. Huge corporations that “operate” here, are too use to making thousands of percent profit at any cost. If they want to play here, they should have to play by some rules. It isn’t fair for them to be able to build a multi national corporation here on the labor of our workers, and still get away with paying employees next to nothing with no benefits.

shakker May 2nd, 2007 10:16 am

The old divide and conquer politics will prevent anything of substance from being done until a crisis occurs. National health care may be the first crisis.

It is true that high minimum wage reduces jobs. I will hire an unlimited number of people at an infinitely low wage. However, a minimum wage of about $8 - $10 would allow people to survive to work another day.

We need to remember the purpose of the economy is to provide for the needs of people. If the Walton family doubles their take at the expense of the Walmart workers the economic measures might appear to be the same, but that would not be good for an awful lot of PEOPLE.

Chicago May 2nd, 2007 10:17 am

Klever, do you think that Mtn Goat is a republican plant?

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 10:19 am

Poet
“The cure is to change our distractions (advertising and mass media for instance)dislocations (happy motoring car culture, disintegration of extended families and toleration of constant commuting and moves in pursuit of employment), and expectations (accumulation of things instead of cultivation of relationships, the making of crap that is thrown only to be replaced by new crap rather than maintained and repaired.”
Poetical truth is always different from any other, or is only partial.
Frankly, I see this talk about accumulation as a diversion.
Not surprisingly, the conservatives with their “blame the person, not the system” enjoy it so much.
Many people are struggling to survive and accumulation isn’t their game.
In other words, what has your post in common with the thread?

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 10:21 am

To put it simply, Goat doesn’t belong here.

Chicago May 2nd, 2007 1:54 pm

Eurobelle, thank you I was thinking I was alone with this thought.

moneylender May 2nd, 2007 2:05 pm

Honestly you people, look murder of Two million children have been and are being murdered by stealth by the international moneylenders every year, not forgetting the millions of the old and the infirm.The holocaust has been and is alive and well for decades. I agree it’s the lesser breed that are being systematically murdered, as part of the population control so that the resources could not be over consumed.
You all cannot be bothered to challenge the bankers who have enslaved every one of you from cradle to the grave. With out any qualms you will produce connon fodders, to die in some distance place.
”If you want to be a slave to banks and pay the cost of your own slavery let the banks create the money”
”Let me control the issue of a nations currency I care NOT who writes its laws”
Unless you are prepared to challenge the very fundamentals you all are whistling in the dark / daylight. Once in four or five years you will get the opportunity to put a cross, that’s the beginning and end of your democracy, then business as usual

Smurfy May 2nd, 2007 2:37 pm

“To put it simply, Goat doesn’t belong here.”

Simple thinking for sure.

It’s “Join the discussion”, not “Join our creepy cult”.

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 3:44 pm

S.
You can’t read - this place is for the progressive community.
Forgive us, but we exercise one of our rights.
Secondly, you can’t think – your manipulations won’t work here.

Money,
You are sadly amusing – what are hoping to achieve here?

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:03 pm

Free,
Can I suggest you go and manipulate somewhere else.
I have little patience for Rovian shticks

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:15 pm

We’re flooded, and I wonder what they’re trying to achieve
here - just to subvert?

moneylender May 2nd, 2007 4:56 pm

You silly gits
What on earth are you trying say.I know the enslaved are willing confused illiterate slaves and will remain slaves

Smurfy May 2nd, 2007 2:37 pm
“To put it simply, Goat doesn’t belong here.”

Simple thinking for sure.

It’s “Join the discussion”, not “Join our creepy cult”.

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 3:44 pm
S.
You can’t read - this place is for the progressive community.
Forgive us, but we exercise one of our rights.
Secondly, you can’t think – your manipulations won’t work here.

Money,
You are sadly amusing – what are hoping to achieve here?

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:03 pm
Free,
Can I suggest you go and manipulate somewhere else.
I have little patience for Rovian shticks

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:15 pm
We’re flooded, and I wonder what they’re trying to achieve
here - just to subvert?

wcdevins May 2nd, 2007 7:48 pm

Every study done examining the effect of the minimum wage on employment concludes there is none. Arguing that it hurts business and puts people out of work is spurious. Considering labor as just another market force to be manipulated, as corpoate capitalism does, is tantamount to slavery. Education is the staircase out of poverty’s basement; if our country was truly rich and great our taxes would go to education, not Halliburton.

peacnik May 2nd, 2007 8:49 pm

I’m with iwarrior. And let’s make sure to eliminate the military industrial complex - Hllaiburtin and all the others like them; all those defense contractors who own our “representatives. The Pentagon building would make a super fitness center for the DC area.

Poet May 2nd, 2007 8:55 pm

Eurobelle wonders:

Frankly, I see this talk about accumulation as a diversion.
Not surprisingly, the conservatives with their “blame the person, not the system” enjoy it so much.
Many people are struggling to survive and accumulation isn’t their game.
In other words, what has your post in common with the thread?

***************

Good question and thanks for asking it. First let me assure you I am not some conservative interested in blaming a person rather than a system.

What my point about accumulation has to do with combatting poverty is everything. Katrina’s points are not without merit, they are just not going to solve the problem of poverty.

Today we live an extravagant lifestyle predicated on the assumption that resources are unlimited and that everybody could have what we have if they only just tried. This is not so as we see places like India and China rushing headlong to become like us and the resulting violence it has done to our (and their own) economies, environments, and personal realtionships.

As Hubert Humphrey once observed, “the measure of a civilization is how they treat the most vulnerable among us–the very young and the very old”. By that measure we are barbarians and please note that both of those groups are far less obsessed with accumulation than with cultivation of relationship. They also give much more than they take if we wil but reach out to accept and val;ue their gifts.

Do they need adaquate housing, clothing, food, and medical care? Of course they do! They also need more. It is not an “either/or” but a “this also is important” point that I wish to make. Thanks for noticing and commenting on my thought.

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 9:40 pm

Frankly, I think we’ll be running in circles.

One doesn’t need Humphrey to now how to measure civilization – he isn’t original.
When people are dying in the street from, it’s an imperative to deal with these people and their circumstances, and prevent the most vulnerable from being in the same situation.
Katrina actually misses the most important issues, such as health care (!).

Yes, they need housing, health care, education etc. They also need not to be exploited, then they will have energy and desire for something else.

Blaming the victims most certainly is not civilized.

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 9:54 pm

In addition, most of excessive accumulation is probably caused
by constant job related stress and constant insecurity - easy instant gratification in a society where most don’t have the opportunity to have a civilized way of life - a stroll in the park, a month of reflection etc.

iwarrior May 2nd, 2007 10:46 pm

13. Let’s not forget about the elderly. No one over the age of 65 should have to worry about how their going to survive, especially after they’ve worked their whole lives. If Venezuela can make sure Her older citizens are fed, housed, healthy, and have a decent income, a wealthy country like ours can do the same. In fact, we should take a good hard look at what all other countries are doing right and steal their riffs.

aum33 May 4th, 2007 12:19 pm

Due to the profound industrial and technological advances of the last 100 years, it will be easy to eliminate poverty and hunger forever.

The biggest obstacles are illusions in the minds of the pessimists who say we can’t. They have much in common with the pessimists who thought the radical material advances of the past 100 yrs were impossible.

———–

Major progressive economist Jeffrey Sachs says that we must end poverty and civilize the earth. The lectures are hosted by the Royal Society in London (it serves as the academy of sciences of the UK).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2007/

Check it out!

moneylender May 5th, 2007 8:53 am

People cannot see the obvious.Creation of money out of NOTHING as an interest bearing DEBT.Moneylenders laughing all the way to the bank, enslaving the rest from cradle to the grave

moneylender May 5th, 2007 7:29 pm

I am tried of trying to educate the cretins who are ever willing to be enslaved.
I can only take a horse to water but cannot make it drink, as a last resort look at this video

Money As Debt
Paul Grignon’s 47-minute animated presentation of “Money as Debt” tells in very simple and effective graphic terms what money is and how it … alle » is being created. It is an entertaining way to get the message out. The Cowichan Citizens Coalition and its “Duncan Initiative” received high praise

exoduskids June 22nd, 2007 11:58 am

Thinking Globally, Act Locally appears on this web-site and if everyone gave 3.3% of their income to alleviate poverty it would make a huge impact collectively, especially in areas of dire poverty. It is simply not the case that the individual can’t do anything to reduce or solve poverty.

Exodus Kids http://www.exoduskids.org is an example of directly helping Indian children escape poverty and the website contains helpful documents as to how people can give effectively.

Kerry the losertarian May 1st, 2007 11:48 am

Calling attention to people stuggling in our economy is laudable but to call a family of four raise on 40,000 dollar year poor while people in africa make it on less than a dollar a day is an insult. Besides many of these policies increase poverty. The minimum wage makes employees more expensive therefore less employees are hired. Miminimum wage laws as well as other onerous requirments to go into business in this country (many put in place by Unions with the expressed intention of keeping pool of workers artifically small) are the reason those 40% plus poverty neighborhoods don’t have lots of official low wage/low cost business bringing economic and experience opprtunities.
Kerry the losertarian May 1st, 2007 11:50 am

P.S. alot of those restrictions were also put in to place by the wealthy business owners and special interest lobbies in order to reduce competition. Welfare fro the rich is even more morally deplorable and harmful to America than welfare to the poor. I want to get rid of both
tj May 1st, 2007 12:01 pm

This program to decrease poverty, while well-intentioned and pointed in a good direction, is much too timid, overly-complicated and fails to get at the structural roots of poverty in our economy.

1) The minimum wage should be a livable wage. PERIOD. (We’re talking about just getting up over the edge of the poverty line here, not even approaching what most people call “middle class.”)

Anything less is literal wage slavery and exploitive. $8.40/hr for a family is simply not real. Currently, a livable wage for individuals is about $7.50/hr. For a family of four it is about $10.00/hour. Indexing is absolutely the right thing to do. NOTE: The proposed current minimum wage increase to $7.25/hr. by 2009 (which has not yet become law) is also more spin than anything else.

2) The reliance on tax credits is too confusing and clumsy for most people. Many poor people do not file at returns all. Nor should they have to. A guaranteed annual wage makes more sense and is less costly to administer and more efficient. Remember Dick Nixon’s $8,000.00/year proposal? What would that be now, indexed for inflation?

3) National Health Insurance is a must. It’s a no-brainer. The country could save tens, if not hundreds, of billions of dollars per year and EVERYONE could receive comprehensive health insurance (further lowering costs of health care and generally making people feel better, more creative and productive and less destructive).

4) The proposal does not mention income or wealth distribution, which is at the heart of the problem. Both can be addressed with a truly progressive tax system. If we just returned to the tax rates and structures of the 1950s-60s, we would be drowning in cash for all kinds of human needs.

5) The military and prison budgets can be severely slashed with ZERO negative effects on personal or national safety and security.

6) A public jobs program, with a livable wage and health insurance could do more than anything else to alleviate poverty. There are all kinds of good, useful, REAL jobs that need to be done in terms of education, human care, producing environmentally sustainable goods and services, etc. Does anybody remember the WPA or CCC? I live in Austin, TX where we have a number of WPA swim facilities and parks, which contribute mightily to the health and well-being of the area three-quarters of a century after they were built. Pretty damned efficient use of tax dollars, I’d say.

7) Social Security must be protected and expanded. A disproportionate number of poor are those of us getting up in age, or those who have been disabled (in many cases because we don’t have proper health care). The simplest fix is to raise or take the cap off of payroll taxes. A more progressive fix would be to change the SSI tax to an income, rather than payroll tax. Also all income should be taxed as income, including dividends, investments and the other tools of the rich.

Talking about personal savings when you don’t have enough to make basic needs is absurd.

It is truly disappointing when a progressive publication, such as the Nation, veers away from engaging ideas for progressive change; and instead it proposes a liberal free-market program that fails to address economic fundamentals, while merely serving to obfuscate structural economic realities.

To put it more personally, would anyone at the Nation, which is based in one of the highest-cost areas of the world, seriously consider this proposed poverty-alleviation program for themselves or their loved ones?
Crow May 1st, 2007 12:58 pm

Riddle me this LOSERtaraian if a high minimum wage leads to stagnant employment conditions why is Ireland’s economy booming when their minimum wage is 9.60/hour? Further why did Henry Ford raise the wages of his workers so they could afford to buy his cars? Do you dare to answers these questions about basic reality LOSERtarian?
ezeflyer May 1st, 2007 1:05 pm

13. Make Mike Gravel President
Bandjineer May 1st, 2007 1:17 pm

There are certain “economic structural realities” neglected in the 12 steps that should be addressed. Step 5: “Create housing vouchers, and promote equitable development in and around central cities”, is closest in this regard.

The economic element which contributes most to our rising cost of living and to the degradation of natural and human environment is transport. Much of our travel is luxury, much is ineffecient and wasteful, much is a tool the powerful use to structure economies in their favor - Big business control over Small business, the global economy over local, regional, state and national economies.

At the metropolitian level, is there any doubt that the automobile has outgrown its own utility? Are their marauding hoards not a gross inefficiency? Aren’t the costs of maintaining their part in modern economies much too high?

At the international level, hasn’t global trade dreadfully weakened economies of smaller, though not less important, economic structures?

Poverty results when economic structures fail. In most US cities, ‘white flight’ to the suburbs was enabled by the motorcar. Most suburban economies cannot function optimally with or even without a myriad of personal motorized vehicles. Suburbs outlaw anything within walking and bicycling distances, and their development pattern makes mass transit impractical to arrange.

Such faulty economic structural development of communities adds most to the cost of living. Modern societies must begin to perceive cars as a utilitarian device preventing rather than promoting progress. And don’t get me started on luxury air travel. What, are the places we live so horribly arranged, we must escape to exotic locales where looking close enough find most of them as stultifying boring as the places we’re trying to flee and forget?

Fundamental economic structuring can build beautiful communities that naturally provide plenty of opportunity and occupation at unbelievably low costs for everyone.
alan hurwitz May 1st, 2007 2:24 pm

While I am anything but a “reformist,” [I like to think of myself as a radical rpogressive] I have long had what I think would be the most effecient reform measure for achieving a far more equitable distribution of wealth.

Impose a 100% tax on all income that exceeds 20 times the poverty rate. Doing so would create an absolute incentive for the wealthy to see to it that the income of the poor rises, for the ability of the wealthy to accumulate more would be directly tied to an increase in the income of those at the economic bottom.
Kerry the losertarian May 1st, 2007 2:56 pm

The minimum wage is not the only thing that hurts business. Ireland is kicking ass because of low (well lower) taxes which are easier to compute and a very weak regulatory structure. Furthermore the EU acts as a tariff wall around the continent. Ireland is the most economically conservative (american terminology they would probably call it liberal or neoliberal) nonformer communist country in Europe. They also avoid lots of little seemingly silly government interventions that have turned alot of other Euroconomies into stagnant pools. If we did that to our economy we wouldn’t need a minimum wage as full employment would bid up the wage for mcdonalds janitor to $20/hr and only then if he was severly handicapped and couldn’t work elsewhere.
Tijuanalibre May 1st, 2007 3:53 pm

Ireland’s minimum wage appears high because the dollar is very low against the Euro. In terms of Purchasing Power Parity (a term a lot of the illiterates whining about capitalism probably do not even understand) it is actually lower than the $7.50 an hour minimum in California.
observer May 1st, 2007 5:28 pm

To all:

To-day is the May Day, the International Day of the Working Men Solidarity.

Workers of the world, those who sell their skills and brains, unite!
abuelito May 1st, 2007 6:48 pm

This is just wonderful. The richest country in the world is already hogging half the earth’s resources. And every day 20,000 people in the Global South die of hunger. You want “great scandal of our times”? I’ll give you great scandal lady. The insufferable greed and selfishness of the rich countries that is keeping the rest of the world hungry.
eurobelle May 1st, 2007 7:03 pm

Tj
great post.
I spent a lot of time being irritated by some libertarian /Rovian invaders somewhere else, while you guys …

I always laugh when some dumb a-s pushes some jingoistic garbage “the best, the riches etc.” in one paragraph, and “we
can’t afford health care,” or “we can’t afford public transportation” in the other.
eurobelle May 1st, 2007 7:19 pm

Frankly, I really I don’t understand how one can talk in 2007
about reducing poverty and strengthening the middle class without mentioning the universal health care.
Paul M May 1st, 2007 8:56 pm

My suggestion is to pay any adult $1000 if they will agree to be sterilised. Preferably in the form of a single-use ATM card so they can get the money straight away.

Even better - start by offerring $200, and raise it to $500 and then $1000 after a couple of years.
Dr. Zimmerman Robert May 1st, 2007 9:01 pm

More thoughts on the community needs:

1. A middle class wage is our base wage.
2. Gross tax rate with no deductions on a progressive scale
3. Free Universal Healthcare
4. Asset tax to replace sales tax
5. Military budgets and departments based on defense needs as all military contractors are nationalized for the benefit of the public good.
6. Entry level workers shall have work or work training through the local levels community needs assessment
7. Social Security and Medicare shall allow quality retirement
8. Local food cooperatives to create affordable high quality food. Local food production primary to each community integrated with farm labor planning.
9. Free universal education
10. Housing developed for humanity and for all.
Dr. Zimmerman Robert May 1st, 2007 9:12 pm

tj May 1st, 2007 12:01 pm
It is better to have rich people like Katrina Vanden Huevel coming our way a little than not at all. Let’s try to embrace everyone so we can all put our shoulders to the wheel together.
eurobelle May 1st, 2007 9:16 pm

Tj for president
plantman13 May 1st, 2007 11:25 pm

One might also note that Ireland is not supporting a massive military-industrial complex!!! The beast Ike warned us about long ago robs us all. Guns and bombs do not contribute to the welfare of society. Until we stop wasting our money on them we will suffer. Norway has one of the highest standards of living in the world. They care for their needy and advance the common good…all without stripping other nations of their resources in order to maintain a burgeoning military. This is the reson the terrorists hate us. They’re sure not attacking Norway.
iwarrior May 2nd, 2007 12:19 am

Twelve Steps to Killing Poverty

1.Institute a LIVING WAGE. 10 bucks an hour.
2.Universal quality free health care.
3.Universal quality free education including college and trades.
4.Reparations.
5.Legalize all drugs and regulate them.
6.No more corporate welfare.
7.Dismantle the Star Wars program.
8.No more military adventures. Pull all troops out. End war.
9.End NAFTA and GATT.
10.Eliminate the income tax and replace it with the flat sales tax. Or at the very least, make the wealthy pay their fair damn share.
11.Stop sending jobs overseas and importing cheap labor.
12.Forgive third world debt.

That’s the best I can do.
moneylender May 2nd, 2007 1:41 am

There are a lot of people out there who want true and a free society.Those were the very ideals Hotchi Min expressed when he took power.The powers that be did not want Vietnam to be a true democracy, the rest is history, but it should be remembered that more bombs were dropped in Vietnam that the whole of the second world war. Children are even to day suffering from the effects of Agent Orange, the US has NOT paid a cent in compensation to the victims to date is spite of the relenless campaigin by friends of Vietnam from the U.S and Europe.That’s what the leaders of Venezuela are trying to create power from the bottom up wards
You cannot create any fair society with out addressing the question of MONEY SUPPLY.As long as we allow Private Banks to create money out of NOTHING as a exponential compound interest bearing DEBT we will all remain enslaved from cradle to the grave.”If you want to be a slave and pay the cost of your own slavery, let the banks create the money’
”Let me control and issue a nations’ currency, I care not who writes its laws”
Money will go into manufacture of Arms which will be used against the people to suppress them, press will be used to peddle false hood, elected representatives will be bought off from creating a true democracy.
Once the Money Supply is in the hands of the people, where the elected representatives are the sole distributors of the funds for productive capacity that will benefit every one, then you may be on a far better world

Illusion, yes the American people are living in an illusion as they are enslaved from cradle to the grave as the rest of the world.The Out Standing Market Credit Debt of that country in the last count stood at $76.63Trillion dollars, the Government will never be able to service the loan let alone repay the capital. Every day this amount is reflected in the books it accrues exponential compound interest. The US lives on a daily overdraft of Billions from the People’s Bank of China (a turn up for the books), and others.

Every thing and every body in the US is owned by private banks, and you pay interest on every thing on money created out of NOTHING

But in the first world fed on rubbish both in mind and body, just to be healthy to be Cannon fodders to fight some one Else’s war. In the Third World Eight million children die every year, that’s one child for every THREE SECONDS this has gone on for decades the holocaust is alive and well.

As long as Banks create money out of NOTHING as a compound interest bearing DEBT to finance wars where the profit margins are better than anything on offer you are in a vicious cycle of violence.
The arms industry is the most subsidised industry in any country, especially in the US..

So you can ‘ELECT’ any party of any colour, it wold not matter an iota

Peace is profitless.
As the Late Lord Hailsm, the Lord Chief Justice of England and Wales pointed out, that we live in a tripartite totalitarian dictatorship; Press, Elected and Financial.
Interest is NOT necessary or inevitable, this insidious and invidious imposition on humankind should be abolished immediately and can be abolished
We are told we are all free and live in a democracy. People can be fooled all the time.
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on.” - George W. Bush
klever May 2nd, 2007 4:17 am

This was a wonderful thread. Everyone had cogent well-intentioned remarks. Then-MtnGoat did apparently take the day off!
I cherish CommonDreams but sometimes there is a tendency to nitpick one another’s opinions.All third party or Progressive movements need to guard against that.It’s much easier for the CREEPs-[ Corporations-Raping-Extracting-Exploiting-&Plundering] to mobilize because it’s all about greed for them.
Was especially interested in the mention of reparations.Could it possibly be more effective to attack the wealth of those corporations and families who were slavers-the companies go to the employees whose ancestors were not offenders.Might not a victory here put all miscreants on notice and improve behavior quickly?
A tangential thought-the pols and the CREEPS WILL pull the plug on the net if they feel threatened enough. The Howard Dean situation alerted them. What then?
greedypeople May 2nd, 2007 9:15 am

Nothing about keeping corporate greed in check? Raising the minium wage only helps for a little while as prices go up up up. A corporation is not a person and should not have the rights of a person. So the discrepancy between the CEO’s salary and the average worker’s salary is both nauseating and laughable. And yet we have come to think of it as “business as usual.”
evelyna May 2nd, 2007 9:41 am

Universal healthcare and lower taxation. Why should people in local communities have to pay excessive taxes to own property. Why should non property owners have to pay taxes when they do not get deductions like property owners?
1099 everyone and raise the hourly wages. Let people write off everything themselves. Why pay into social security if they are not to deliver as promised?
Create co-ops where people can go into business and buy things via a group.
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 10:11 am

greedy,
This nonsense - corporation as cute babies - should be ended. This country can’t be a chief clown on the planet.
But Tj’s suggestions + some more (VACATIONS, for example)
are good.
When you limit exploitation, sick salaries of criminal CEO’s
go down. In spite of what some economists say “We don’t know why the CEOs ..,” we do know. I am not an economist, but I think it’s safely to say that when you pay employees living wage, when they work 35-40 instead of 70 (paid for 40), when they take their vacations instead of enriching criminal (i.e. collaborating), then we’ll see more normal salaries at the top.
Poet May 2nd, 2007 10:13 am

KerrytheLosertartian opined:

Calling attention to people stuggling in our economy is laudable but to call a family of four raise on 40,000 dollar year poor while people in africa make it on less than a dollar a day is an insult.

*****************

Yes and no. Because those Africans are not planted in US culture with its distractions, dislocations, and expectations your analogy is a lot like comparing apples to oranges.

I gaurantee you were those Africans born and raised here they would be facing the exact same problems in the exact same proportions as Americans do because humanity beneath the skin is more similar than disimilar.

That being said, the economic proposals of Ms. Van Den Heuval are not a “cure for poverty” they are only emergency stop gsap measures. The cure is to change our distractions (advertising and mass media for instance)dislocations (happy motoring car culture, disintegration of extended families and toleration of constant commuting and moves in pursuit of employment), and expectations (accumulation of things instead of cultivation of relationships, the making of crap that is thrown only to be replaced by new crap rather than maintained and repaired.

Until we see that our connection to each other is more important than the accumulation of things and our focused attention is more precious than the accumulation of things we will always be impoveriushed no matter what we possess or how busy we are.
Marat May 2nd, 2007 10:14 am

This is a major issue in this country, because we refuse to wake up and admit that uncontrolled capitalism is a flawed and failing system. Huge corporations that “operate” here, are too use to making thousands of percent profit at any cost. If they want to play here, they should have to play by some rules. It isn’t fair for them to be able to build a multi national corporation here on the labor of our workers, and still get away with paying employees next to nothing with no benefits.
shakker May 2nd, 2007 10:16 am

The old divide and conquer politics will prevent anything of substance from being done until a crisis occurs. National health care may be the first crisis.

It is true that high minimum wage reduces jobs. I will hire an unlimited number of people at an infinitely low wage. However, a minimum wage of about $8 - $10 would allow people to survive to work another day.

We need to remember the purpose of the economy is to provide for the needs of people. If the Walton family doubles their take at the expense of the Walmart workers the economic measures might appear to be the same, but that would not be good for an awful lot of PEOPLE.
Chicago May 2nd, 2007 10:17 am

Klever, do you think that Mtn Goat is a republican plant?
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 10:19 am

Poet
“The cure is to change our distractions (advertising and mass media for instance)dislocations (happy motoring car culture, disintegration of extended families and toleration of constant commuting and moves in pursuit of employment), and expectations (accumulation of things instead of cultivation of relationships, the making of crap that is thrown only to be replaced by new crap rather than maintained and repaired.”
Poetical truth is always different from any other, or is only partial.
Frankly, I see this talk about accumulation as a diversion.
Not surprisingly, the conservatives with their “blame the person, not the system” enjoy it so much.
Many people are struggling to survive and accumulation isn’t their game.
In other words, what has your post in common with the thread?
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 10:21 am

To put it simply, Goat doesn’t belong here.
Chicago May 2nd, 2007 1:54 pm

Eurobelle, thank you I was thinking I was alone with this thought.
moneylender May 2nd, 2007 2:05 pm

Honestly you people, look murder of Two million children have been and are being murdered by stealth by the international moneylenders every year, not forgetting the millions of the old and the infirm.The holocaust has been and is alive and well for decades. I agree it’s the lesser breed that are being systematically murdered, as part of the population control so that the resources could not be over consumed.
You all cannot be bothered to challenge the bankers who have enslaved every one of you from cradle to the grave. With out any qualms you will produce connon fodders, to die in some distance place.
”If you want to be a slave to banks and pay the cost of your own slavery let the banks create the money”
”Let me control the issue of a nations currency I care NOT who writes its laws”
Unless you are prepared to challenge the very fundamentals you all are whistling in the dark / daylight. Once in four or five years you will get the opportunity to put a cross, that’s the beginning and end of your democracy, then business as usual
Smurfy May 2nd, 2007 2:37 pm

“To put it simply, Goat doesn’t belong here.”

Simple thinking for sure.

It’s “Join the discussion”, not “Join our creepy cult”.

S.
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 3:44 pm

S.
You can’t read - this place is for the progressive community.
Forgive us, but we exercise one of our rights.
Secondly, you can’t think – your manipulations won’t work here.

Money,
You are sadly amusing – what are hoping to achieve here?
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:03 pm

Free,
Can I suggest you go and manipulate somewhere else.
I have little patience for Rovian shticks
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:15 pm

We’re flooded, and I wonder what they’re trying to achieve
here - just to subvert?
moneylender May 2nd, 2007 4:56 pm

You silly gits
What on earth are you trying say.I know the enslaved are willing confused illiterate slaves and will remain slaves

Smurfy May 2nd, 2007 2:37 pm
“To put it simply, Goat doesn’t belong here.”

Simple thinking for sure.

It’s “Join the discussion”, not “Join our creepy cult”.

S.

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 3:44 pm
S.
You can’t read - this place is for the progressive community.
Forgive us, but we exercise one of our rights.
Secondly, you can’t think – your manipulations won’t work here.

Money,
You are sadly amusing – what are hoping to achieve here?

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:03 pm
Free,
Can I suggest you go and manipulate somewhere else.
I have little patience for Rovian shticks

eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 4:15 pm
We’re flooded, and I wonder what they’re trying to achieve
here - just to subvert?
wcdevins May 2nd, 2007 7:48 pm

Every study done examining the effect of the minimum wage on employment concludes there is none. Arguing that it hurts business and puts people out of work is spurious. Considering labor as just another market force to be manipulated, as corpoate capitalism does, is tantamount to slavery. Education is the staircase out of poverty’s basement; if our country was truly rich and great our taxes would go to education, not Halliburton.
peacnik May 2nd, 2007 8:49 pm

I’m with iwarrior. And let’s make sure to eliminate the military industrial complex - Hllaiburtin and all the others like them; all those defense contractors who own our “representatives. The Pentagon building would make a super fitness center for the DC area.
Poet May 2nd, 2007 8:55 pm

Eurobelle wonders:

Frankly, I see this talk about accumulation as a diversion.
Not surprisingly, the conservatives with their “blame the person, not the system” enjoy it so much.
Many people are struggling to survive and accumulation isn’t their game.
In other words, what has your post in common with the thread?

***************

Good question and thanks for asking it. First let me assure you I am not some conservative interested in blaming a person rather than a system.

What my point about accumulation has to do with combatting poverty is everything. Katrina’s points are not without merit, they are just not going to solve the problem of poverty.

Today we live an extravagant lifestyle predicated on the assumption that resources are unlimited and that everybody could have what we have if they only just tried. This is not so as we see places like India and China rushing headlong to become like us and the resulting violence it has done to our (and their own) economies, environments, and personal realtionships.

As Hubert Humphrey once observed, “the measure of a civilization is how they treat the most vulnerable among us–the very young and the very old”. By that measure we are barbarians and please note that both of those groups are far less obsessed with accumulation than with cultivation of relationship. They also give much more than they take if we wil but reach out to accept and val;ue their gifts.

Do they need adaquate housing, clothing, food, and medical care? Of course they do! They also need more. It is not an “either/or” but a “this also is important” point that I wish to make. Thanks for noticing and commenting on my thought.
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 9:40 pm

Frankly, I think we’ll be running in circles.

One doesn’t need Humphrey to now how to measure civilization – he isn’t original.
When people are dying in the street from, it’s an imperative to deal with these people and their circumstances, and prevent the most vulnerable from being in the same situation.
Katrina actually misses the most important issues, such as health care (!).

Yes, they need housing, health care, education etc. They also need not to be exploited, then they will have energy and desire for something else.

Blaming the victims most certainly is not civilized.
eurobelle May 2nd, 2007 9:54 pm

In addition, most of excessive accumulation is probably caused
by constant job related stress and constant insecurity - easy instant gratification in a society where most don’t have the opportunity to have a civilized way of life - a stroll in the park, a month of reflection etc.
iwarrior May 2nd, 2007 10:46 pm

13. Let’s not forget about the elderly. No one over the age of 65 should have to worry about how their going to survive, especially after they’ve worked their whole lives. If Venezuela can make sure Her older citizens are fed, housed, healthy, and have a decent income, a wealthy country like ours can do the same. In fact, we should take a good hard look at what all other countries are doing right and steal their riffs.
aum33 May 4th, 2007 12:19 pm

Due to the profound industrial and technological advances of the last 100 years, it will be easy to eliminate poverty and hunger forever.

The biggest obstacles are illusions in the minds of the pessimists who say we can’t. They have much in common with the pessimists who thought the radical material advances of the past 100 yrs were impossible.

———–

Major progressive economist Jeffrey Sachs says that we must end poverty and civilize the earth. The lectures are hosted by the Royal Society in London (it serves as the academy of sciences of the UK).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/reith2007/

Check it out!
moneylender May 5th, 2007 8:53 am

People cannot see the obvious.Creation of money out of NOTHING as an interest bearing DEBT.Moneylenders laughing all the way to the bank, enslaving the rest from cradle to the grave
moneylender May 5th, 2007 7:29 pm

I am tried of trying to educate the cretins who are ever willing to be enslaved.
I can only take a horse to water but cannot make it drink, as a last resort look at this video

Money As Debt
Paul Grignon’s 47-minute animated presentation of “Money as Debt” tells in very simple and effective graphic terms what money is and how it … alle » is being created. It is an entertaining way to get the message out. The Cowichan Citizens Coalition and its “Duncan Initiative” received high praise
exoduskids June 22nd, 2007 11:58 am

Thinking Globally, Act Locally appears on this web-site and if everyone gave 3.3% of their income to alleviate poverty it would make a huge impact collectively, especially in areas of dire poverty. It is simply not the case that the individual can’t do anything to reduce or solve poverty.

Exodus Kids http://www.exoduskids.org is an example of directly helping Indian children escape poverty and the website contains helpful documents as to how people can give effectively.

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