Religion is not rational or logical. Organized religion is mostly detrimental to society as a whole. It's used to control people.

As a child, my parents did not attend church, as they were non-believers. However, my grandparents took my sister and me to an evangelical church, and we both bought into the whole thing for years. Fortunately, my parents preached tolerance and lived by what they taught, so they allowed us our forage into the world of religion. I believe it's a good thing to expose children to all kinds of religious experiences. I read the Bible, I prayed, went to Sunday school and church, and I listened to the calls to be saved. Often, during revival accept-Christ-as-your-savior sermons, I'd go through the ritual of turning my life over to the Lord.

But it never worked. I had read over and over accounts about young children my age who had accepted Christ and immediately felt the rapture, but I was never one of them. Each time, I waited for the feeling to come, was once again disappointed, and prayed to become enlightened. Didn't work.

By the time I was at the end of junior high school, I had pretty much given up on all of it. Then I got pregnant at the age of 15. Unlike the parents of many teenage girls (fundamentalist Christians included), my parents, especially my father, were kind, supportive, and made a point to help avoid any guilt on my part. Through a series of events, they began going to the Unitarian church and I went too. I joined a youth group, and I told the group leader I was pregnant and I didn't want to offend anyone if they didn't think I should be in the group. He laughed and said no one would mind and if they did, it was their problem. Sure enough, I was quickly a part of the church, and when I had my child, both the youth group and the congregation as a whole sent me flowers.

That's real acceptance, and it differs greatly from what I experienced in the evangelical church. I am now a hardcore agnostic (I don't know and you don't either), I see inconsistencies, hypocrisy, and all kinds of other unfortunate results of religion, and I want no part of it. Unitarian/Univeralism excepted. The closest UUC is 30 miles from my home, and I feel no need to travel that far to go. However, the UUC is still dear to my heart, and when my son got married there, it was great to see that the same spirit of inclusiveness still exists.

By the way, I'm interested, if anyone knows, whether or not the rumor that the Unitarian/Universalist church has elected to NOT be a non-profit organization is true. Supposedly, this is so political ideas can be promoted and discussed at church. I was told that 30 years ago, but I never verified it.

In any case, the tactics of the wingnut churches are despicable. They cater to the dispossessed, ignorant, and lonely. They divide and alienate friends and family, and they sow the seeds of elitism and exclusion. Not nice at all.

What should be worrisome about these xenophobic Christian Madrasas is that their proselytizing hordes will slowly descend upon the savagely bombed out population of Iraq in order to take advantage of the psychological trauma, American bombs of love have reigned down upon them. As the traumatized close they're eyes in prayer, they'll steal even more land and slip in a Wal-Mart or two to boot.

It is an ill Roman wind that fills the sails of this ship and the lungs of its occupants.

Peace, Best Wishes and Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk1vEuhBuEU

The Hare Krishna group, the Scientologists, and other cults like them, should sue this guy Kennedy for copyright infringement. He has obviously copied their recruiting manuals.

Within attraction is faith; Within promotion is sales. Within the former lies truth; the latter lies.

Having been raised in a traditional, mainstream Protestant denomination (UCC), I really hadn't been exposed to these Fundi extremists until I got to high school. I found myself really dismayed at what I heard from classmates who were "saved", even as I began my own journey, first to Agnosticism, and then into Atheism.

I remember the first deceptive ad campaign from the Fundi's in the mid-70's. I started seeing "I Found It!" on billboards, wondering what 'It' could be. Then the radio commercials started, saying, "I found new life in Jesus Christ". Fortunately, that early introduction to the deceitful tactics of these people helped innoculate me to their psycho-warfare tactics, so that now I'm immune. I've been preached at by some of the best and been able to resist their advances. I wonder, does it take a higher than average IQ to resist their nonsense, or is there hope for average people to avoid drinking the Fundi "Kool-aid".

The conservative minority rules because the liberal majority they demonize lets it.

Having survived Catholicism and a stint in Christian fundamentalism in my early twenties (the charismatic renewal), and having recovered my reasoning capacity as a human being, I can say this with confidence: the Big Three, Judaism/Christianity/Islam, are collectively responsible for most of the misery befalling mankind since the agricultural age. Christianity is no more than Santa Claus for grownups. There is not a shred of evidence for any of its claims. It is a fraud perpetuated daily upon the fearful, an astonishing thing to witness. (None of this is meant to diminish Jesus the human, who had a wonderful teaching on the Mount . . . if in fact it happened as reported, which is unverifiable and, when you think about it, irrelevant.)

It's interesting they tell their recruits to read the book of John. I guess other gospels aren't Godly enough. As in Matt. where Jesus says, "Pray to your father (sic) in secret."

I gave up christianity for lent, I think Patty Smith probably said it best;
"jesus died for somebodies sins but not mine"

we don't need no stinkin' churches, snake-oil preachers, preachin'...

i have a direct, personal connection to Creation. i'm a part of it all.

and none of those charlatans know squat about the teachings of Jesus, the man. i pity the poor fools ;)

peace!

almost fergot: Thank you Chris Hedges. I love your un"common" sense :)

I have weighed the alternatives of deism, atheism, and agnosticism, but through the wonders of the internet I learned of the one true belief:

Apatheism: I don't know, and don't care!

That is a beautiful story LeeAnneG. Thank you.

Chris Hedges said, "You don't have to be born-again to be Christian". I'd like to add, "You don't have to be a Christian to act like one."

I was raised Unitarian, but found later in life that I needed something a bit more spiritual. I discovered another group of intelligent, tolerant and compassionate people at the Church of Religious Science. We're very much like the UU's, but more willing to use the "G" word.

Both churches in my community are small congregations, and we're both very uneasy about "selling" our practice and message to others.

Hedges' article has convinced me that we can't afford to be shy. There are plenty of disprited people in this world, and they need alternatives to to avoid falling prey to hard-sell authoritarian religions.

Thanks jjohnjj. An addendum to the story happened not too long ago.

Back when I was 15 and pregnant, my father said this to me: "First of all, you did not do anything wrong. Lots of girls do what you did, but they don't get caught. It's a natural thing. Now, if a girl at your school got pregnant and you made fun of her, that would be wrong."

Then he stopped, took a sigh of relief and said, "Well, that's over. And (with a look of pure delight) in April, we will have a baby!"

I said, "You mean we can keep it?" and he answered, "What would you do, put it in the garbage?"

The idea of giving up a child or abortion (and he was not a right-to-lifer) never entered his mind. My son, now in his 40s is an awesome person, a contributing member of society in so many ways. My father died almost 2 years ago and I miss him every day.

But that's not the whole story. A good friend's daughter recently got pregnant, and my friend told me that my father's words were the most important factor that helped her comfort her daughter. An act of kindness 45 years ago went on to benefit someone else. My friend is now a grandmother to a beautiful 15 month old baby girl.

Pass it forward.

the cults and the whackos have stolen jesus. he's gonna be one pi$$ed off messiah when he gets back here.

To LeeAnnG

Your father was a real man and I'm sorry not to have had the privilage to have known him. I've met people like him though and I can only hope they are multiplying, we need them.

Bless you.

Thanks Thomas, he was larger than life. If you want to see a part of him, type Ray Gallucci pottery in the search engine. There are several of his pieces on e-bay right now. He made his living as a master potter. His passing left a huge empty place in many lives.

truthteller:
I got sucked in by those "I found it!" ads, and why not? There was love in my family. The church became my escape and eventually my prison.

It wasn't until I went to the Bible School that my eyes were opened to the very things Hedges chronicles. You can read more about it at my site:
http://www.christisntcomingback.com

Hebrew/Egyptian history has become clouded over by a Roman fabrication, a history already traumatized and severed through the division incited by Akhenaten/Moses, followed by the slaying of their anointed King, Tutankhamen. As the Roman fabrication morphed into an accepted history for the Victor, it painted Egyptian/Hebrew history with a Roman/Christian color, in which the subjugated relinquished in order to appease their fanatic Roman oppressors.

The new gestating Roman creature, salt in the myopic wound of Akhenaten/Moses, continues to grow to ever greater magnitude, cloaked in its self-serving dogma and its own brand of virulent intolerance, now fill the sails of Hebrew Israeli aspirations' and egos.

As the Templar's were eventually to discover, to their later detriment and demise, it was upon the character of John the Baptist which the Roman fabrication was woven. The trail of blood this creature of Rome has left in its wake spills rivers from the pages of history books. In more recent times, in the southern region of France, the Languedoc massacre of the Gnostics is perhaps the largest example of genocidal debauchery perpetrated by this ill wind, not to be exceeded until the events of WWII.

Israel needs to shed the Roman fabrication and seek reconciliation with its Egyptian Hebrew roots and reject Akhenaten's intolerant views which caused the slaying of their anointed king, at the hands of Akhenaten's wicked priest Phanehesy (Phinehas), at the foot of Sinai. This rift has become the psychological trauma of the ages, because we have all fallen prey as a result of it, subjugated instead by the Roman fabrication and its branches which have trickled from its bloody throne.

Peace, Maat, Best Wishes and Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk1vEuhBuEU

Dear Chris, I hope you can see the underlying negativity which pervades the preceding comments particularly in it reference to a type of atheistic, areligious and very left wing politically correct politics which seems to dismiss and belittle an enourmous part of the US population. It is natural and understandable given the fear-based politics of the "dominionists" and their look alikes, but I would argue against taking the "Christian" right so seriously. I believe they have aquired what power they have by adopting the backwards and overly emotional techniques created within the 'Political Correctness' movement, their followers are not as committed as their leaders want you to believe and the best way to deflate them is to argue for and demonstrate a more true Christianity in which we show that we can treat people as we want to be treated especially when we don't agree with them. The fundamental weakness within the modern movement is that they must denigrate those who don't 'toe the line'. Think of the late Senator Wellstone who showed all of us how we can win through attraction rather than promotion or denigration.

The saintly Thomas A'Quinas is quoted as saying one of the joys of heaven is the pleasure you get watching the suffering souls in hell.Hell of a saint,ey?And he is one of the heros of Catholicism.You dont need too many enemies with heros like that.
I feel sorry for the people like the grandmother anguishing over her grandchildrens future in hell (not that I think she would get any Aquinas type pleasure from this) and for the millions whose minds have been abused in this way over the milleniums,including the Thomas A'Quinas' of the world.
If only the world was made up of more people like the parents of LeeAnnG.

"Many want to be deceived and directed. It makes life easier to bear."

Also known as, the 25-ish percent still supporting the feeble king, not counting the ones supporting him for profit.

Substitute "Bush administration" for "Christian right" in the above and enjoy.

Been there, done that...I was with a group almost exactly as described for 5 years. I was a single parent with 3 very small children, I had just moved to Massachusetts from PA, and they "got me." By the time I got out, I was so deeply depressed I almost couldn't function. It's taken me a long time to heal, emotionally and spiritually, but I'm more myself today than I've been in a long time.

The god-based religions are obviously based upon psychological terrorism - believe our story or be tortured forever. Such mean-minded belief systems are mental viruses that spread from mind to mind, leaving pathetic, deluded, fearful (gun-loving) people in their wake. No one is awake until he or she can see the inherent evil in such religions.

If that greatest liberal hippie Jesus said "Turn the other cheek", "love thy neighbor as thyself", "help the poor", etc., how can conservatives say they follow him at the same time they are spreading suspicion, greed, racism, hate and violence?

Strictly speaking, if liberals demonize conservatives, won't that make them conservatives?

I live in the Bible belt and pass the church marquis often. The "Jesus died for your sins" always got me, since as a HIGH spiritual teacher, one of his lessons was to show that the SPIRIT overcomes death, hence is rising from the cross. Jesus demonstrated the immortality of the spirit, so it's quite a delusional propaganda campaign to keep making it seem he "died" for others' sins. Secondly, it takes a really naive view of history to take the Bible seriously, given it's been rewritten on numerous occasions to suit the rulers of the various epoch. Many parents are not as understanding as Lee-Anns... and some young women are impregnated by their fathers, step fathers or mothers' boyfriends. Religion has used sex to place a chasm between the genders, making us fear one another, our innate sensuality and the power of love, even if and when expressed in carnal form. I, too, feel organized patriarchal religions have done more harm than good, and the best case is the state of "the Holy land," right now. Vonnegut made the cynical comment (probably relating to religion) "The world is divided into teams carrying out God's will." It does sadden me when people, naturally rebelling against the inanity of their orthodox religious training, turn into atheists. Some look at the state of the world, the enormous suffering and conclude there could not possibly be a God. But if what we term God set this earth up as an experiment for consciousness to evolve, not only for biology to show evolution but for parallel spiritual growth to occur in sentient beings, then Creator cannot ACT for the actors... we can only aspire to be more like the Divine ones, like Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Mohammed (spelling?) that came to SHOW the way TO higher consciousness. The political powerbrokers use these esteemed souls as icons, and then force others to do what they say as if that proves fealty to a higher cause. It's the spiritual equivalent of the game of telephone we used to play as children. Tonight, driving along the Suwannee with the sun spun into gold against the hanging mosses, one senses the great magnificence of this creation. We, like the ant, are unable to define that which is Infinite, but certainly the act of war and destroying Creation can pay no homage to Creator! If only the establlished religions GOT that!

There is a vast difference between personal faith that convicts one to live a certain way and the emotional and psychologicqal violation chronicled by Hedges.

The problem with the Dobsons, Kennedys, Colsons, Fallwells, and Robertsons and others of that ilk is that they mistake "coercion" for "conversion".

That's why all the manipulaton must take place because coercion is externally imposed and conversion is internally generated. Authoritarians have perverted the gospel of Jesus for the purposes of their own recruitment and I agree with Quweensbee that:

"He will be one pissed off Messiah when he returns."

The American equivalent of the Nazi era's 'German Christian Church' (Let's call it the 'Amerikan Kristian Church') uses time-tested cult/promotion tactics. Hedges does us all a favor by detailing those tactics.

Many comments above, however, make a tactical mistake and a HUGE category error when they lump all Christians (or even all who follow a religion) into that fascist style and mentality.

The majority of people in the US who identify as Christians belong to denominations that are NOT fundamentalist, and are NOT unequivocally conservative. Writing all of these people of faith off as mindless idiots who have nothing to contribute to a progressive vision is a huge mistake.

When the left cedes all 'God-talk' to the fascists, and denies partnership with the MANY prophetic voices (hello? Anyone heard of MLKjr?) and faithful people who have struggled and died for peace, justice, and equality in this country, it cedes too much.

Even those of you who have reason to mistrust religion can, I hope, see the strategic problem with dismissing ALL people of faith as allies in this monumental struggle against the corporate fascists and their Bible-totin' footsoldiers.

I understand that the promulgation of toxic theology by the Right has done a great job of turning non-religious people into anti-religious people. But this is a cynical strategy on their part, and we don't really want it to succeed.

Bill Moyers said that about 50 million fundamentalist Christians read Tim Le Haye's END TIMES... that's a LOT of Christians... and there's a pretty good certainty they are the 31% that still support Bush, and his "holy" war Jihad delusion.

Right on, Peachmcd, you have said most clearly all that needs to be said.

Watch James Kennedy(BS,MA,PhD,DD,...) on The Coral Ridge Hour and see if you have ever seen a more dimwitted, self-righteous, judgmental, arrogant, politically right wing wind bag.

Then read William James book 'Varieties of Religious Experience', lectures four and five especially. The phrase 'born again' will take on a whole new meaning. This is carefully reasoned, fascinating reading that still does not ignore human emotion, yet does not insists on the abreactive surrender of one person to another.

I am a Christian. I am very skeptical of many Christian movements today. I grew up hearing the gospel ALL THE TIME; I thought I believed, but why?

As I became older, I wanted to know why I believed what I said I believed. Of course, I found that I didn't (believe). I realized that my commitment mainly sprouted and died from emotional break-downs at Christian events. Feelings and emotions are not constant/consistent, which is why a faith built upon those will fail.

I detached myself from every emotion, confided in no human being, and built a faith based on trust and commitment, relying on Christ alone. I developed discipline through prayer to wait for answers. I began to believe without seeing, hearing or feeling, and believed in what I read. My faith has been re-affirmed through events and answered prayers, and I experience Christ.

We live in a culture that seems to require affirmation, answers and signs with limited patience. But that isn't faith, and that's why I was wrong for so long.

As for building FAKE FRIENDSHIPS, there is no way I could make a "tip-toe around the truth" response. It doesn't seem right to present the gospel to a stranger. Many times it is judgmental and hypocritical. But I know Christ, and I want everyone to know, regardless of who they are. It is love and compassion that drives me, not pride.

Building a relationship with Christ is between the individual and Christ, not any human being. I feel friendships are to encourage and hold accountable, not to persuade or manipulate. I not feel the need to the later. Through patience, I have become 100% confident in the power of Jesus' resurrection to change lives, not in the fake power of a fake friendship.

Does logic and God mix? The God of the bible claims that He is the creator and sustainer of all life and that His creation testifies and speaks daily but clearly about Him. Therfore, man has no excuse for not believeing because nature is a testimony to His power and wisdom. OR, everything in nature came about all by itself. Next, the bible says that prophecy was written so that we would believe because HE(God) claims that HE knows the ending AT the beginning, therfore, if one prophecy doesnt come true then the bible is discredited. The bible is close to 2/3's prophecy. Many Prophecies have come true already with a precision that has baffled all critics, for example, the prophecy that Israel will become a nation again after being scattered all over the world, which is something that has never happened before in the history of man. There are also prophecys written about the latter days(our time) that have yet to come true, some are being fulfilled right before our eyes. While we have life we must settle this question. Did everything in creation come about by itself or did an eternal
God speak it into existence? AND, is perfectly fulfilled prophecy written by men under the holy inspiration of God which was written centurys before their fulfillment, is this evidence of the MOST HIGH? This one and only God(Father, Son, and the Holy Spirt, perfectly united as one) makes it clear that He loves man and that He is also a God of perfetct justice. He makes it clear that we have all broken His laws and that the penalty for breaking His laws is death. He takes no delight in the punishment of the wicked and His will is that all would be saved from the punishment of breaking His laws. Instead of us dieing for breaking His laws, out of love, He gave us the perfect sacrafice for all of mankinds law breaking. This sacrafice died on the cross instead of us dieing(seperation from God) for breaking His laws. This perfect sacrafices name is Jesus and for all those who place their trust in Him and what He did for them shall inherit eternal life. For all men must die(physically) and then the judgement. OR, we came out of nothing and life is meaningless. All I can say is, Don't be a fool, for the fool says in his heart there's no God. Don't be a fool and think that the wicked things that have been done in His name are approved of Him and that you won't have to answer to Him for YOUR lawbreaking. Therefore repent, for the Kingdom of God is at hand!! All those who call on the name of Jesus will be saved.

What a load of bull. So much time wasted on becoming the most virtuous of the "sinners." Too bad that the true meaning of the Christ are not taken to heart. According to the bible, he proposed loving all humankind, not only white christians. Religion is, indeed, "the opiate of the masses" who fear life itself rather than deal with it. We need more Marxists and fewer, richer by the day, christian zealots.

Life is hard but ignoring its realities in the dream of being vacuumed up (raptured) to live in a non-existent "heaven" is to give up on bettering humanity. Get a life. Live and let live. We have only one life and that is the measure by which we are judged.

The term Christ is from the Greek Christos, both having their roots in the original Egyptian/Hebrew – Meshiahc - from where the word Messiah is derived. It simply meant the anointed king, who in distant Egyptian times was anointed with crocodile oil; MeSSeH being the Egyptian word for crocodile. This practice was taken out of Egypt, and continued by Akhenaten/Moses, even though they rejected and slew their anointed king at the foot of Sinai, only to later accept the mythologized Roman fabrication of what they had already done. There were many anointed kings.

Please read my prior post.

Peace, Maat, Best Wishes and Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk1vEuhBuEU

The term Christ is from the Greek Christos, both having their roots in the original Egyptian/Hebrew – Meshiahc - from where the word Messiah is derived. It simply meant the anointed king, who in distant Egyptian times was anointed with crocodile oil; MeSSeH being the Egyptian word for crocodile. This practice was taken out of Egypt, and continued by Akhenaten/Moses, even though they rejected and slew their anointed king at the foot of Sinai. They hid from this deed, only later to fall prey and into bondage of a mythologized Roman fabrication of what they had already done. There were many anointed kings.

Before that, mother earth and father sky were the shadows of God…and still are. The sole purpose for the anointed king was to maintain Maat.

Please read my prior post.

Peace, Maat, Best Wishes and Hope
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tk1vEuhBuEU

D. James Kennedy of Coral Ridge Ministries is a genius. From being a Arthur Marry dance class instructor he has become the most powerful and respected evangelist in America. America is truly a land of opportunity.

Being raised a Baptist I learned about heaven and hell. I was scared of going to hell and all i knew as a child to avoid it was to believe that jesus was the son of god and that he died for our sins. problem was that it was pretty hard to believe as i got older and started to question and learn about the origins of Christianity. as much as i wanted to believe i just didn't. now i question the faith of my parents. if they really believed that there was a chance that their child may spend eternity in hell then they wouldn't have had a child. if i really believed that there was even a minute chance for my child to spend eternity in hell then i would not have a child. i'd rather have not existed at all on this earth than to have a chance to spend eternity in ultimite misery. if my parents are right and there is a hell i hope they can hear my screaming in agony forever. can anyone who really believes that the only way to avoid eternal damnation is to accept that Jesus died for our sins and is the son of God have children? only if they don't really believe it. you'd have to be insane if you believe that and still reproduce. its akin to letting your child play russian roullelle, only with greater consequences. i've not yet heard a christian who says they believe in heaven and hell give a reasonable answer to this question.

The faulty logic of Christianity:

1. The problem started with a talking snake telling somebody to eat an apple. The problem was fixed by killing someone. It makes as much as sense as fixing a cracked windshield by filling my gas tank.

2. We know man has been on the earth for many many thousands, if not millions, of years. The cave paintings in France go back at least 30,000 years. And yet, in the Old Testament we supposedly have an account of just a handful of generations between the time of Jesus and the time of Adam, so we know for sure that's nowhere near correct.

3. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If you would have others go to hell, you would go yourself. If you think others would go to hell for not believing as you do, then you would go to hell for not believing as they do, since nothing is verifiable. And indeed, for denying someone their God-given abilities of logic and reasoning by insisting that they believe something that is not logical or reasonable, you are the one creating your own hell and putting yourself into it, talking snakes and guilt and all.

I also got deeply mixed up in this stuff and am free. Try Ralph Waldo Emerson, if you think you've had enough of Christianity but need something to fill that void. America's greatest writer, but more than that, an honest spiritual thinker and leader, who provides you with not a creed to memorize but a means to rely on your own two eyes and mind.

Chris: Good article and good book. I have always had a fear of these right wing religions. Perhaps I sensed as a child that there was danger here of being hypnotised or psychologically traumatized. I prefer independent thought. What these fundamentalists use to snag so many believers is peoples loneliness. In America in any sect: military, church, sports, schools and community, people want to get rid of their separateness even if it means losing their integrity and independence. To belong to something eases one's loneliness. Perhaps loneliness is more frightening than death and it takes courage to walk freely with one's private thoughts.

I think Hedges work on the rise of Christian fascism in America is very insightful and through. Although I haven't yet read his book, I have read numerous articles, and I would like to see more on solutions. Particularly what should we do who see those close to us (family and friends) fall prey to such manipulation. Without deep structural changes in are materialistic and profit driven society, can we really expect those with limited or underdeveloped critical thinking skills to not be attracted to this extremely simple (although comprehensive) doctrine to deal with existential angst? Or does anyone have any good advice about how to wean someone away from this fundamentalist nonsense without offending them and thereby further entrenching there rightwing viewpoints. To illustrate, everytime I am critical of my Mom's Dobson/Kennedy-inspired religiously determined political beliefs (e.g. abortion and homosexuality issues, Islamophobia, questions of free market capitalism or American hegemony, etc.) I usually get a response like "Liberals are just so arrogant! To think you know better than the gov't!" And thereby she just becomes more entrenched in her viewpoints. And it is difficult to talk to people with a fundy theology, becuase from the get-go they assume you are an unsaved heretic, and therefore everything you say is from self-interest or from the Devil. Any good advice?

RadicalConfucian, this is indeed one of the biggest problems facing those of us who tend to "think below the surface". If, perhaps, you can get them to read Carl Sagan's 'The Deamon Haunted World' with an open mind it might help. It sure helped me. Unfortunately, as I can say from experience, it would appear that those most in need of such enlightenment are the same ones who will instantly reject anything that tries to use logic and reason to chase away dogma and delusion.

I fear that religion in the USA (and elsewhere) appears to be moving from being a personal guiding light for individual human tolerance, understanding and kindness into a shrill rallying cry for inclusion into select group(s) of "true believers" who are convinced they are the only ones that will be saved when the much anticipated end of the world comes around. One can only wonder which, if any, of these groups of believers will be the ones who win this exclusionary "religious lottery"....

Personally, I find it very sad and depressing that as more and more people "accept God as their personal savior" the world seems to spin deeper and deeper into self-rightious and intolerant groups of people killing other people in their God's name to gain everlasting entrance into "heaven". What a perversion of logic and reason! If indeed ANY of this were true, what person in his/her right mind would want to spend eternity with folks of this ilk?

In the meantime, those of us who, for whatever reason, do not accept this "join our group or spend eternity in hell" mentality are looked upon with pity and scorn and are constantly pressured to join up immediately or risk becoming marginal citizens. By "marginal citizens" I mean those who slowly and incrementally find themselves losing their basic freedoms as these same religious people learn how to 'force' the conversion process by morphing into political leaders and manipulating the laws of man to suit their needs.

My personal feeling about this whole matter is reflected by my bumper sticker - "Your religion should GUIDE your life - not CONTROL mine!".

Logic and religion are mutually exclusive. There are so many questions that true believers are unable to answer. For example: is earth the only place where sentient beings live? If so, what is the purpose of the rest of the universe? Did God really create a universe more vast than our minds can even comprehend in order to put a few billion people on only one of its planets until they either crowd each other out or foul it to the point of extinction?

If the earth is not the only place where sentient beings live, are the rest of the living creatures in the universe subject to the same rules as humans? Are they limited to one male/one female mating for life? Does God care if they say bad words? Do these other creatures even have a concept of bad words?

If God is all-powerful and all-knowing, why did he (or his son, depending upon which version of Christianity you adhere to) have to come to earth to subject himself to torture to "save" humanity from original sin? Why not just say "I forgive all of you"? If God knows everything, it can't be so he could experience the human condition. He already comprehends everything.

Same thing with building the arc - couldn't an all-powerful God decree that everything die except Noah and two of each animal? And speaking of which, how did Noah get to Australia to find the Kangaroos? Or The Antarctic to collect the polar bears? Were these animals on the arc? If not, did the flood cover the entire earth or just the part the ancient Hebrews were familiar with? How did two of all the animals fit on a boat the size of a football field?

When I ask my Christian friends about the number of animals on the arc and how the meat eaters managed to live for 40 days and nights without attacking any prey, they say God can do anything. So why was Noah's help needed if God can do anything?

Religion and mythology - in my opinion one and the same - are meant to help explain the unknown, to give meaning and guidance to the human experience, and to teach us how to live well. When they fail to do these things in a relevant way, they become obsolete. All the "western" religions, which include (in spite of how the Christians like to think of themselves as the only ones who have a western religion) Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, have become mostly irrelevant in today's world. They all evolved from the same root, they all have very similar belief systems, and yet their adherents are vehemently opposed to each other's views and deny each other's veracity.

Today's religions do not explain the unknown; instead they refute scientific knowledge.

They do not give meaning and guidance to modern human existence; instead they take old superstitions, outdated social arrangements and taboos that pertain to ancient civilizations, and attempt to mold our world to fit.

They do not teach us how to live well; instead they too often advocate violence, intolerance, and blind obedience to authority. Religious leaders pick and choose the lessons they wish to pass on to their followers and ignore the ones that contradict their agenda.

The Bible was written during a time when people believed the world was flat, when certain foods were found to cause illness, when the traditional male characteristics of aggression and strength were necessary for survival in harsh surroundings. The world was a very small place with limited access to understanding nature or physical laws.

The gospels were written years after Jesus' death, so much of what is in them is hearsay - and early church leaders also cherry-picked from the writings and gospels the ones they liked and excluded those they didn't think fit in, like the gospel of Thomas. And to top it all off, the text of the Bible was translated from one language to another over centuries. Try translating a modern novel or essay from one European language to another, and finally to American English. Then translate it back again. The original meaning will be, if not lost, drastically changed. Imagine how different the content of an ancient language must become when translated to English!

Yeah, yeah, yeah - God directed all of this, so there are no mistakes. Because he had nothing better to do after creating a universe so huge and far-reaching that the whole of it is in comparison to human beings far greater than a living being is to each of its own atoms. But this one little, tiny speck we call Earth matters so much to God that he gets really irate if one of its creatures fails to honor its parents. Among other equally innocuous acts by equally unimportant creatures, this behavior can get you condemned to eternal torture or at least stoned to death according to the Old Testament.

And I am supposed to believe all this? My favorite bumper sticker is "Militant agnostic. I don't know and you don't either."

LeeAnnG. Well written. Your father would be proud...

Thank you, Jimmyt. Nothing you could have said would have made me feel finer.

Wow, some nerves were touched, the truth has a way of doing that. What truth? The truth that not everything that is done in His name(God, Jesus) by man is santioned or ordained by Him. Mankind has done tremendous evil in His name(although men have done far more evil in their own names truth be told). Yes, there are abuses and wrong done in the American church with men and women manipulating people and decieving folks while being decieved themselves. Yes money and politics, self rightousness etc... have infiltrated the churches. BUT, there's always a but, God ALWAYS had a remnant in every kind of peoples througout history. They may not be on t.v. or the radio but they are there and have found the truth(Jesus says He is the Truth, way and life) and are in love with their savior: Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God. AND Jesus warns over and over again about these decievers, and hired hands and charlatansand sins. He perfectly describes this type of church: the Laodician church in Revelations(read it for yourself). So every crititical thing about Christianity that's been said on this board was already written and prophesized about thousands of years before you were born. You see, it's not that your not worshipping something. Whether its your little intellect, or money, ego, different idols, pleasure, pride, etc..Oh your worshipping something. I would just rather worship the creator instead of offending Him and worshipping something in His creation. Which leads me back to my original question, Where did all this stuff in nature come from? Did you will yourself into existence? Or did it all come about all by its little old self. If it all came about by an intelligent designer then you must seek this designer out. Or if you think it came about all by itself then continue in your darkness. He left His word with with us to help, but you dont have to have it to find the great I AM. I dare you to sincerely look up to the heavens and ask God to reveal Himself to you. Perhaps you may find Him, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. He loves you so much that He died for your transgressions even though your an enemy in your fallen state and rebellion. I say Repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand!, for He will frustrate the intelligence of the intelligent. For His thoughts are as far away to your little thoughts as like the earth is to the end of the heavens. Seek God while He may be found, don't wait untill your in trouble and then instinctivly(there's no atheists in foxholes) call upon Him although He is so kind that He will come in your time of trouble. Peace out and God Bless