armybrat is misled if she thinks that '24' is a Canadian production, just because Kiefer Sutherland is Canadian. '24' is the 'brainchild' of, and funded by, a good ol' American neocon. Even the U.S. military has asked that the program be toned down because it's making their job more difficult, and the guy has said No. It is, as someone said, ideology. Paranoid Pessimist shouldn't give up speaking up against torture. People might not change their mind in the one conversation but they WILL notice that at least one person they know doesn't agree with them and they may, and sometimes do, go away and think about it. It's even easier to do if you find a group in your town that speaks/writes/demonstrates against torture and then speak up together, or speak alone knowing that you are absolutely NOT the only person who feels that way. One of the reasons the military doesn't like '24' is that it gives personnel the idea that torture is easy and leaves the torturer unscathed. So when they do start having nightmares, they think there's something wrong/weak/wussy about them and don't seek help.

And I know your type.

MollyJ April 19th, 2007 9:16 pm
"Torture hurts all of us, not the least being the perpetrator of the torture."

It has long seemed to me the same principle applies to the death penalty:It brutalizes society and it encourages brutalization.

You need to look no further than the wave of "shoot first" legislation sweeping the states. In Florida it is now presumably legal to kill someone who is breaking into your (vacant) car and you will be immune from all criminal and civil penalties.

This is Jeb Bush's "culture of life" in Florida.

that fact that americans are having this discussion, debate?,gives me such a poor view of our culture - that we have to "share this article", for instance. i get the sense of what it must have felt like when the average citizen of berlin realized that the 3rd reich was goin nowhere fast. no reformation needed for a dead thing.

I think this is an excellent article and iterates a theme well worth using as a slogan, a campaign ideal. Torture hurts all of us, not the least being the perpetrator of the torture.

And while I think there are some hard-core idealogues out there who won't change, more and more people are becoming uncomfortable with what America has become under this president.

We probably will never touch the idealogues. But they are not, I am convinced, the majority.

Share this article with whoever you can.

Most of Americans (of both sexes) already have been invaded and tortured, by their parents, schoolteachers, and other adults while children. It is either legal or just ignored. That is the reason why this disgusting, barbaric show appeals to them.

Siouxrose, your comments sound just as disgusting as this tv show does. It is good not to forgive and hate our tresspassers; that is what makes it possible to truly sympathize with and treat other people well; something you obviously don't know how to do. All serial killers have "forgiven" their parent's brutality, and that is why they can't feel their own emotions enough to be kind to others.

Key89 says "every person who is mute is complicit". This is something to think about. Although it is a very extreme statement(it smacks a bit of "you're either with us or against us"), I have been feeling more and more the need to SAY SOMETHING and not remain silent. So what do I do? Paranoid Pessimist tried to argue the point with "tough guys", but I it's a waste of energy try to change extremists. Do I write letters to the editor? Call my representatives of congress? Give money to Amnesty International? I honestly would like suggestions on course of action. I'm sure there are MANY people who are opposed or uncertain about torture, but when we remain silent, we allow it to be "normal".

Shows like '24' are all about ideologies, and that's why they're popular. Good triumphs over evil. Avenge pain.

It's terrible to know that this show is so popular. It makes you realize how few people actually understand the implications of what's being viewed (the latent messages), or that even if they do understand, they still enjoy those implications for whatever reason. It's hard to live knowing that people enjoy seeing people be abused in fiction, yet are very much against violence in reality... when torture is torture, and imitating it seems to not strike so many people as long as they know it's fictional. I thought fiction was some part of the truth, some reflection of it. It all has to come from somewhere.

Maybe Amy's right, that we need to be invaded (or suffer great violence) in order to finally see. That's terrible to think, but apparently that's what it takes for some people to genuinely care.

Torture, "collateral damage" of innocent civilians and children ... death and horrible injuries ... the truth should be told about what the Bush-Cheney administration and their associates have done.

Some people say war crimes or even treason have been committed. These should all be investigated and pursued.

No wonder the world wants to stop these terrible US leaders from doing more damage.

Related information on this:

"U.S. public relations on Iraq, Iran need truth and honesty"

PopulistAmerica.com
February 21, 2007

http://www.populistamerica.com/us_public_relations_on_iraq_iran_need_truth_and_honesty

And I happen to believe in reincarnation, and it makes sense that souls who graviate to Abu Graib and other torture camps either WERE tortured and never forgave their trespassers, or were those trespassers who have returned to do more of same. Just as we sleep and dream at night, and if we sleep 8 hours that's one third of our existence, the nether world of dreams, or what Casteneda's teacher termed the NAGUAl holds fragments of a timeless place, the place the being returns to between lifetimes. I believe we do retain fragments of soul memory, and for me, being burned as a witch was real. I'm not speaking with hyperbole when I say that too many on today's Supreme Court carry the same sensibility as those that would torture "heretics." And don't be so sure if this group retains power that it will be confined only to Arab men... they HATE and FEAR everyone not inside their uniform unitary executive ranks. They fear life and that means their own impulses, so they try to squelch the freedom and LIVING of others. EASY RIDER pointed to that mental illness and it's so strong in the US south due to fundamentalist religious training, begun on tender minds from the time they can begin to think and imagine the world. Its a fierce indoctrination, as totalitarian as any government we studied and thought we (US) had overcome! The beast in our midst, calling itself what it is not...

Calling it entertainment desensitizes people so that what's on TV slowly becomes a norm. Remember back when TV had a taboo about showing sex, and people were more conservative. Now sex and violence are everywhere, and our society has lost its sense of the sacred. Shows where cops bust down doors scare me. They also desensitize people as per privacy and property rights. Given the popularity of Blackwater and private armies for hire (who do they answer to?), and the LACK of popularity for dissent these days, it's not a great development from a progressive standpoint. There was a book published by ex-prisoners when I lived in London entitled, "WHO GUARDS THE GUARDS"? I think that says it all.

Because we are truly all connected, whatever is done to one, affects all. The person who wields the whip or humiliates the "other," is symbolically setting up those same conditions to be met by himself. If people understood that metaphysical truth was inviolate, even if its evidence doesn't appear in an immediate way, they would not be so inclined to so blithely seek ways to destroy "others." Ironically, for a great many, deluded beliefs in religion provide them with a false sense of impunity: me good, you bad. sure. Try that when your number is called and you're outside this wild planet and have to answer to the Lords of truth, light and karma.

While I agree with what Key89 says in the first of the 2 posts, I don't like statements like "every person who is mute is complicit". It feels like someone is trying to guilt trip all of us who haven't . . . what? Speak out against torture? To whom? A lot of the people who call in to right wing radio talk shows on this topic won't be persuaded. They LIKE the idea of torture. It makes them feel like no-nonsense tough guys doing "whatever it takes" to deal with "bad guys" like they do on "24."

I've tried arguing the point with people and they sincerely believe that anyone who isn't willing to use torture is a wimpy wus, not tough enough to deal with the "realities" of today's mean and nasty world.

So I tried not being mute and it didn't seem to accomplish anything, so I guess my hands will have to remain a little bit bloody.

I lived through sex abuse, mental abuse, and being beaten up daily just because, their thought was if you rape her she won't become a lesbo, if you put her in her place she won't step out of line and if you beat her for doing nothing she will sit around crying and think about what it would be like if she thought of standing up for her self. However it taught her to do what the fuck you want cuz some one will abuse you period. Others learned to kill em before they get another chance to hurt them. Others learned to just plain beat people up any where and any time they felt like it. Violence begets violence, period. Always has and always will!

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/53904.html

And here is the smoking gun, evidence that the US corporations are aiding and abetting torture!!! America has blood on its hands, and every person who is mute is complicit.

I grew up in the 60s and 70s. I remember how shocked many were when we learned in the early 80s how rampant sexual abuse against children had been throughout not only the 20th Century, but all of history. Even more shocking was learning within the last ten years how the Catholic Church had perpetually protected priests who had committed such abuse. The outcome of this knowledge has been a wide-ranging consciousness-raising movement across society geared toward educating young people and parents alike that sexual abuse is wrong and not to be tolerated.

It seems to me that we are in the beginning stages of the same type of consciousness-raising as regards torture. I remember how bizarre it seemed right after the September 11th attacks to see pundits suddenly talking about the viability of "torture warrants" and other ways in which torture could be used "as a last resort." I remember commenting to friends and associates how our thinking had suddenly moved back into the medieval. Now, barely five years later, Americans as a whole barely seem to blink when hearing about Guantanamo Bay and Abu Ghraib. Many have scarcely heard about the Geneva Conventions. Perhaps many are hoodwinked by terms such as "stress positions" in place of the rightful term of torture.

A key point I wish to make here is that in spite of the Geneva Conventions, torture has never fully been discredited across this nation. There are many reported instances in which it has occurred.

Let me address the most passionate, protective, righteous parents of young children, and ask them if torture is not as hideous a fate as is sexual abuse. Would you want your children subjected to torture at any age, or for any reason? Is there anything that makes one form of abuse less evil than another?