Rupert, the answer to your question is unfortunately no.

Such events, and the blogosphere has lit up, serve to rally the pro-gun movement to repeat their tirade that this massacre is a direct result of gun laws.

The problem is far deeper than any law can solve, and is a particularly sick element of American culture and psyche. Solving the problem of gun violence requires a total cultural change, and will only happen when the US decides to no longer support government-sanctioned violence (the military) or corporate-funded violence (advertised through the media).

Ultimately incidents like this shooting may be WHY america has a love affair with guns.

Pick up a stack of gun magazines or go to see a few action movies and you will see a consistent theme: "When push comes to shove every american has the RIGHT to defend his chosen way of life."

Of course for most of us that means driving SUV's and living in oversized mcmansions. But for some people that could mean the right to defend their meth lab from the customers should they choose to avoid cash payment.

Hidden in the subtext is that this right will always provide guns to people who are tired of life, their college professor, mayor, gays, minorities, popular people and folks whose dogs pee on their lawn.

Having the right to own firearms means that you have the right to take a few dozen or few hundred shots at whatever you percieve to be a problem. Hell, I know some people with so many percieved problems that they have thousands of rounds of ammunition stockpiled.

Now once you've started to address you're problems with live ammo there will be consequences. Most shooters understand this and oblige by committing suicide after they wind down or run out of ammunition. That doesn't do much for the folks, dogs, cows and lawnmowers they've shot up though.

So right about now members of the NRA are meeting to plan their media strategy. But what it comes down to is that the only gun control they're really interested in is improving their members ability to put rounds on target.

Please choose your targets responsibly.

I grew up in an NRA family--my grandmother hled several national records for indoor target shooting. My grandfather was a firearms collector. We had maybe 50 firearms in the house when I was a kid, and I fired my first .22 target pistol at age 3.

I gave firearms safety classes when I was a teenager to other teenagers who wanted to get hunting licenses, and I wrote the safety manual for firearms and bowhunting for Washington State.

It is not familes like mine who are in love with violence. Nevertheless, I believe that the NRA should fold its tent as too many folks who DO have a life devoted to violence use the NRA lobby as a way to justify stuffing their pickups, houses and pockets with firearms.

The problem is that violence has replaced religion as the opiate of the masses in the US. And the crusade has exploded in many parts of the world under the guise of the War on Terror (which Gore Vidal rightly called about as silly as declaring a war on dandruff) and with the goal of creating other violent societies in the manner of thatof the US.

Humans will and have always been violent. It is the technology that they have access to that matters. You cannot massacre 30 people as easily with a hatchet or a bow and arrow.

Guns arent the problem, humans with guns are the problem. There is nothing wrong with cows having guns, or chickens, or hedgehogs. They can be trusted with guns. Humans cannot be.

There may be some connections between increasing violence in the world on many levels and on many fronts.

US national leaders who promote invasions, violence, torture, the killing of half a million innocent Iraqi civilians (including children) and similar activities don't exactly contribute to an atmosphere of peaceful problem-solving.

Food for thought on this at:

"Events at home and overseas trouble our souls: New directions provide opportunities"

PopulistAmerica.com
October 13, 2006

http://www.populistamerica.com/events_at_home_and_overseas_trouble_our_souls

government control of guns wouldn't have stopped this. The government can't protect you only you can. If some of them students had been carrying gun and new how to use them there would have been less people killed.

Study after study has shown that concealed carry permits does lower gun violence Florida is probably the best example of this. Washington DC is the best example for how gun controls make for a more dangerous environment. Recently the UK released a study showing how countries such as England and Australia have become more violent than America. There's nothing that could have prevented a nut from committing act of violence.

There's nothing the government can do to protect you. Your only protection is you.

30 some people just waited to be killed yesterday.30 people against one person with what two guns which he had to reload.
"Now the NRA is saying only if someone was packing a gun"
Well NRA if it was one of those 30 people who did nothing but wait to be killed I am afraid the same number would still be dead.
By their numbers they could have saved themselves but they didn't.
Readers don't you just love the NRAers saying they want to go back to those wild west days where everyone packed a gun.
If they would really research those days of yore they would find that many of those people were still unjustly killed by those guns. Many shot in the back. many shot because of alcohol or card games. And let us not forget African And Native Americans being killed just out of hatred.
Now remember those guns of old you had a good chance of being missed. Not today with laser sights and automatics.
And what happens if today's gunnies high powered bullet goes through its victim and hits someone innocent? SORRY ABOUT THAT HUH?

What is really funny in this America with all its fire arms Cameras on every corner..And laws up the cazoo to punish all us bad people.
Still 30 odd people are dead.
If we really want to stop these kind of things from happening then we better start to try to at least get to know and like our neighbors.
Anyone ?have you ever even talked to your neighbor 3 doors down?

Talking to your neighbors is more un-american than gun control. Last year I had a tenant in a building I managed die, during a heat wave, in July. Nobody noticed until the stench OUTSIDE the apartment was unbearable five days later.

In the US you owe your neighbors nothing; not even courtesy.

for kelmer:

Good point, but remember that Hutus with machetes killed more people in Rwanda than the US Air Force with fire bombs killed in Tokyo. I still think the choice of weapons is a distraction from the Freudian roots of the human, and especially the American, malady.

I think it is ironic when gun advocates use rhetorical phrases like, "It's not guns that kill it's people who kill", without realizing it is 'people' like them who engage in the cowboy-like, eye for an eye, violence for vengeance, and fear mongering behavior that permeates through our society.

Check out this guy's research on "democide" http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM.

Organized states are responsible for the worst atrocities in the 20th century. Conceivably, the liberal-authoritarian (as opposed to progressive-populist) backlash against guns may lead to a rather frightening question: if the state enjoys a monopoly on firepower, what next?

If the state is practically utopian -- well-run, a shining example of democracy and fairness, with high degree of public trust, only sends it most knowledgeable experts to positions and capacities of visionary leadership, a world-leader on environmental and human rights issues, a champion of civil liberties and habeas corpus, a peacemaker on the international scene, etc. then perhaps we'd have nothing to be concerned about. But is this the reality? It may well be that Americans should demand that their government lay down its guns, and return us to a peace-time economy for the first time in well over half a century.

Gun control would not have prevented this tragedy there were armed police on the scene the killings still happened, in the UK we have guns laws people still get shot, if you want a gun you can get a gun anything is available for the right price, what will probably happen now is a lot of energy and time will be wasted trying to prevent another tragedy from occurring, some restrictive laws may even be put in place all for naught, it'll happen again and again stuff like this is not preventable nor predictable. Don't waste time on stuff you can't change, concentrate on the things you can, stop the war tragedies like this occur everyday in Iraq.

"I believe that wherever you see laws that allow people to carry [weapons], generally the violence goes down,"

And "I belive that nicotine is not addictive". Note that like the tobbaco execs, this person carefully is not appealing to fact.

If someone's very angry or irritated for whatever weird reasons, and there's a stone close at hand, its not unlikely that the stone will be flung in a moment of an irrational outburst. The stone will find a target. A lot of normal people too get irrationally angry once in a while. Road rage - which sometimes turns extreme - affects a lot many of us more than once in a blue moon. You use the only weapon you often have - thankfully - the horn.

Replace the stone with a gun, and now you also have the added sense of power and "heres-how-i-finally-get-back" that comes off holding one in your hand, and with all the precedents of scenes from movies and 'living up' to what people who were 'fed up' or 'angry' have done earlier, you have a massacre like the one we saw. Its horrible but a "simple" (pardon my use of the word in this context) depression or frustration has been turned into a major tragedy because this ingredient was available off the shelf.

Yes the black market does exist, and if one is determined or criminal enough, one can buy weapons off it. However, I strongly suspect a lot of these cases are not where people were that determined *before* they got a gun in their hands. Purchasing it off the black market is a complex enough step to reduce the incidence of such moments of lunacy in a big way. The consequences are surely not worth "calculating percentages", are they ?

I see a lot of people are talking about the role America's culture of violence played in this massacre on this and other common dreams message boards. While I totally agree that America is fascinated to almost a surreal degree by violence and that this has played a role in other major shootings, I believe the shooter was actually a South Korean citizen. He was only 19, so I'm assuming he's been in the country a year or 2 to attend college. I'm not sure how much of an effect violent American culture had on him in that short span of time. It sounds like the principle issue was that he had the impulse to do something violent and in this country he found the means to do it since the kinds of guns and levels of ammunition needed to carry out a mass shooting were readily available to him.

Paul Bramscher:

I think our word for the people who enjoy a monopoly on firepower is:The State. They are rarely shining examples of anything, but they sure do have firepower. I always say "sir" when talking to a policeman.

I enjoy your web page.

vox

Just ONE teacher with a concealed carry permit, which is not allowed on public campuses in VA would have stopped this. Think about it.

Wait a minute. Who says that automatic weapons/assault rifles are a favorite of violent criminals? Where's the evidence to back that up? Rather difficult to conceal, arent't they?
I don't know of too many rapes or muggings in which the perp wielded an assault rifle, do you?

When you take into account how many innocent people are killed by cops every year, I think if the police are against it, I'm probably in favor of it.

Then factor in how many people protect themselves from a criminal assault every year by wielding (not even necessarily discharging) a firearm. Ready to tell all those good citizens they'll just have to be robbed or raped or murdered rather than defend themselves?
I'm not.

And then there's the little matter of King George and his neo-fascist circle jerk. Want to be completely at the mercy of THAT gang of liars, cheats, thieves and murderers?
Bush is the POSTER BOY for the second amendment. He's the very sort of tyrant the founders wanted to keep in check, if it comes to it, by ensuring that the government does not "out-gun" the people.

If anything, this awful event underscores the necessity for citizens to have the means to defend themselves.

Just my opinion.

Liberty & Justice,

SJ

www.spartacusjones.com

Oh joy, the retardricans have weighed in

"""""Just ONE teacher with a concealed carry permit, which is not allowed on public campuses in VA would have stopped this. Think about it."""""

A person ? with no cognitive abilities begs the readers to "think".......if only they could see just how fukcing stupid they sound, maybe, just maybe, they'd consider learning before farting out their mindless rightwing propaganda.

Oh well.

"Guns don't kill people....people kill people"

Nuclear weapons don't kill people...................

using retardrican logic we all can have nukes...after all we gots to protect areselves from the herd a maraudin coloreds that are just bidin their time...waiting to takes over....and ya knows what they'll do to da white women....lordy I'm gonna get my nuke now..god bless Amerikkka

Columbine happens everyday. 8 children are murdered with handguns in the United States of America every day.

8 children....in The United States...murdered..every day

Come on righty double digit, breakout a misinterpretation of the Constitution to remind all of your idiotic kind that your imaginary freedoms

(by the way you are yours hate freedom )

are worth 8 slaughtered children a day....every day...right here...8 children

The faculty at Virginia Tech were aware of the shooter's violent mind by his creative stories. The question is why didn't the faculty respond to that?

It's probably something like: Violence is tolerated in the media so why not also in a student's creative writing? Besides, everyone is expected to pull himself up by the bootstraps in this society, so it's inevitable that some will fall by the wayside. We can't get serious about people's psychological health, i.e. make it both acceptable and affordable. That would be un-American, too socialist.

Those are some typical rationalizations for neglecting the problem. The way to handle people who communicate violent ideas is to ask about and acknowledge their concerns. We don't have to agree with them. We just have to acknowledge them. But if we ignore them, avoid them, or argue with them, then we add to their problem.

I have asked this question on another post:
Why is that most of the rest of the civilised world accepts gun control as reasonable and appropriate but America doesn't?

Ok, let's say that the law in Virginia had allowed anyone to carry a gun on campus when Cho Seung-Hui went on his rampage at Virginia Tech. Lets assume that 4 people that lived in the dormitory, where this all started, had handguns and were trained and armed themselves when they heard the commotion or the shooting. How would those people have known who the perp was? It is entirely possible that more people would have been shot as people would have shot each other seeing dead bodies on the ground and people (not cops) walking around with guns raised.

Not quite the same problem at Norris Hall, since the classrooms obviously knew who the shooter was, but a similar problem if people with guns had entered the hallway, how would they have know for certain who the bad guy was even if Cho Seung-Hui had been shot dead in the class? Yes, I wish someone had a gun and had killed the bastard but these kind of events are so rare even in the US that it is not really the point when debating gun controll. These kind of events are largely unavoidable, they happen in this country on a yearly basis with liberal gun control laws like the US and they happen in countries less where the gun laws are more restrictive like Great Britain and Australia. Virginia Tech and similar incidents will always happen no matter what the laws are. That is not the real issue, a crazy person will always find a way. It is the death of 80 people every day from gun wounds that really needs to be addressed in our country.

I agree that if guns were severely restricted, criminals would still have access and law abiding citizens would not. But I ask everyone to think about this, if the rate of 80 people a day die from gun violence is correct, isn't it completely logical to think that this number would significantly decrease if the EASY access to guns was completely eliminated and personal possession made virtually illegal? The proof is in the percentages of gun related deaths in countries that have strict access. The straight percentages don't lie, death by gun is much less on a percentage basis in every free country where the laws are more restrictive.

I personally don't believe our current right to own a gun keeps this country free, I could argue we are less free now than we have ever been. Citizens have only raised arms against the government once and that turned into the most deadly war the US has ever known if you count both sides as Americans.

Think of how many road rage incidents you have crossed paths with. What would have happened if that person was packing a pistol or you and they were packing? Who knows but in most cased it is not pretty thought.

If gun access was severely restricted in the US, there would be continued gun violence without a doubt, and instances like V-Tech where people would go on rampages would still happen. But overall I just can't imagine it getting much worse than it is now in this country, 80 people every day die from a gun wound, 2.5 times the number of people killed by Cho Seung-Hui, it is an unbelievable statistic, 30,000 people each year…. Yes, cars kill more, but they serve a very functional purpose that benefits all of society. Guns don't come close to providing the same benefits to society. Actually other than self protection they provide no benefit other than the financial contribution to the businesses involved in the gun industry.

Even if this change was only 50% effective in decreasing the death rate, I would personally be willing to give up my right to own a gun (yes I have owned a gun, but no longer do), to save 40 people a day in this country, 14,600 people a year. People that we know will die no matter what this year and next and next if the status quo is maintained.

I have no doubt that if it was illegal to keep a gun on your person or in your home (similar to Britain) the death rate due to gun violence (suicide and murder) would plummet. Waiting periods etc. don't cut it, elimination of easy access and elimination of the right to casually posses a gun is the only solution, what we have now is not working. Three years from now when the Virginia Tech incident has left the public conscience close to 100,000 people will have died from gun wounds in the US unless the general public rises up and squashes the gun lobby and sends the message needed to Washington.

I don't believe it will happen in my lifetime, but the current situation certainly is not working…. 80 people every day, 30,000 a year, 300,000 a decade from now, a disgrace this country and it's politicians refuse to address.

Look at the way the Australian government responded to the Port Arthur massacre and the way the British government responded to the Dunblane massacre: Both tightened restrictions on guns. In Great Britain (pop. 60 million+)only 58 people were killed in gun-related homicides in 2006.

Compare that with the US response after Columbine (which Tom DeLay, incidentally, blamed on the public schools teaching evolution). Since Columbine, the US government has allowed the assault weapons ban to elapse, has made it harder for the states to track delinquent gun shop owners, and has made it impossible for the states and cities to sue gun manufacturers regardless of how irresponsible they are in marketing a patently dangerous product.

Meanwhile, here in Florida, the state legislature has passed a shoot first law and is contemplating passage of a law that prevents employers from prohibiting guns in their own parking lots.

Rest assured, there are more Columbines and Virginia Techs to come. Because in America, we love our guns more than our children.

Everybody is talking about how violence in Europe has increased even in gun control. This is a typical case of how people twist statistics to suit their own purposes. If you read the report on European statistics for crime, the homicide rate in England is around 1.9 per 100K people while in Us it is at almost 7 which is also considered to be the lowest figure in 30 years.

An increase in violent crimes in any region is a function of the law and order enforcement of that region. A violent crime could be anything ranging from a domestic brawl or a full blown massacre at Virginia Tech. It is important to note however that the chances of a homicide go up considerably when firearms are involved.

NRA members supports the idea that every person should carry a gun for self defense. This argument basically renders our judicial system redundant. We do not need thousands of judges sitting in hundreds of courts who determine punishments for criminals. We can have a John Doe sitting in his front yard with a shot gun deciding whether a petty criminal who tried to enter his home is worthy of a bullet in his head.

I also find it interesting how the 2nd Amendment justification quickly turns into a right to self defense with a firearm conveniently neglecting the "militia" part!

A society which is obsessed with wars, thugs, high speed car chases not to mention the sadistic thrill of watching people being shot/die in car accidents makes it even more of a case that americans should be the last people on earth who can be trusted with guns.

rossco

"Why is that most of the rest of the civilised world accepts gun control as reasonable and appropriate but America doesn't?"

Probably because the Americans who are paying attention to them countries with strict gun control measure are actually more violent than America. That is a truth you won't agree with I guarantee it. All fact support the statement gun control cause more violence but the people who believe otherwise are lazy thinkers and distort real facts to support their beliefs.

Most gun control advocates will never tell you these simple facts. A life is saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes, most of the time the gun isn't even fired.
Source: "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalance and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," by Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, in The Journal of Criminal Law & Criminology, Northwestern University School of Law, Volume 86, Number 1, Fall, 1995

By Comparison:

A fatal accident involving a firearm occurs in the United States only about once every 6 hours. For victims age 14 or under, it's less than one a day -- but still enough for the news media to have a case to tell you about in every day's edition.
Source: National Safety Council

A criminal homicide involving a firearm occurs in the United States about once every half hour -- but two-thirds of the fatalities are not completely innocent victims but themselves have criminal records.
Source: FBI Uniform Crime Reports and Murder Analysis by the Chicago Police Department

Defensive Gun Use Information
http://hematite.com/dragon/gunclock_stats.html

I would ask each and every one of you gun control nuts to supply your source for any facts you may supply. Most of the time your information is actually based on other people opinion which has no bases of fact.

Here you go right wing lunatric fukcing liar

Children and Gun Violence

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

not exactly opinion is it ? Caught you in a lie right wing mother fukcer

Children and Gun Violence

America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)
In one year, more children and teens died from gunfire than from cancer, pneumonia, influenza, asthma, and HIV/AIDS combined. (Children's Defense Fund)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
America and Gun Violence

Every day, more than 80 Americans die from gun violence. (Coalition to Stop Gun Violence)
The rate of firearm deaths among kids under age 15 is almost 12 times higher in the United States than in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control and Prevention)
American kids are 16 times more likely to be murdered with a gun, 11 times more likely to commit suicide with a gun, and nine times more likely to die from a firearm accident than children in 25 other industrialized countries combined. (Centers for Disease Control)

Spartanladkenny April 18th, 2007 11:20 am
Everybody is talking about how violence in Europe has increased even in gun control. This is a typical case of how people twist statistics to suit their own purposes. If you read the report on European statistics for crime, the homicide rate in England is around 1.9 per 100K people while in Us it is at almost 7 which is also considered to be the lowest figure in 30 years.

Your only considering homicide. Rapes, burglaries, home invasions, assaults and other violent crimes are soaring.

Spartanladkenny
"An increase in violent crimes in any region is a function of the law and order enforcement of that region. "

No not at all it's a function of how diligent the citizens are to protect them selves and their neighbors.

Spartanladkenny
"NRA members supports the idea that every person should carry a gun for self defense. This argument basically renders our judicial system redundant. We do not need thousands of judges sitting in hundreds of courts who determine punishments for criminals."

The judges are only good after the fact and the government can't and is not required to protect you. Our law enforcements only job is to arrest people after a crime has been committed. Sometime they get lucky and prevent a crime from happening but their not require to do that. You are responsible for your own protection wither you like it or not.

Spartanladkenny
We can have a John Doe sitting in his front yard with a shot gun deciding whether a petty criminal who tried to enter his home is worthy of a bullet in his head.

The more people do the less crime we have and I'm not just talking violent crime either.

Spartanladkenny
"I also find it interesting how the 2nd Amendment justification quickly turns into a right to self defense with a firearm conveniently neglecting the "militia" part!"

The militia part is there to guarantee that common citizens can form their own private militia to defend against our own government, something we need badly in this day and age.

"A criminal homicide involving a firearm occurs in the United States about once every half hour — but two-thirds of the fatalities are not completely innocent victims but themselves have criminal records"

So you are justifying killing people with criminal records by regular citizens? Are you from texas?

When you talk about stats can you yourself look into research methods closely enough? When you post such ridiculous statements you need to first decipher every word in it. What do you mean by "not completely innocent victims?" Does that mean that out of those 30 odd people who died in the VT massacre, if two of them had criminal records - 1) one for possessing $5 worth crack and another for domestic abuse - they deserved the bullet. The NRA is notorious for publishing such statistics because most of their members are ignorant right-winged nuts!

Every day 8 children ages 0-18 are killed by guns in the United States. (National Center for Health Statistics-2004)

There is nothing worse than right wing losers smearing propaganda on dead children to defend their indefensible positions on guns. You people make me sick

My god you people are sick...."it's not 8...it's 5"

you are wrong but

WHATEVER you freakin creeps

What's an acceptable number of children to be killed by stray bullets every day so you can protect your imagined freedom....What about the freedom of the murdered children you idiots

So how many kids must die every day to defend your facist version of freedom you meglamaniac double digit mother fukcers

Is 3 a good number ? It's ok if 3 children are murdered in the US every day by gunfire to protect your imaginary freedom ? 4 ok ?

You people hate freedom. How disgusting that you hide behind a concept you work against at every turn.... Bushies

Rickster - Are you trying to make sense here? How is rape, burglary and other crimes are related to whether people own guns or not? Americans have always owned guns. The crime rates have fluctuated in the last 30 years regardless of whether people own guns or not.

I don't know if you've ever lived in any other country than US but here is a personal fact. I grew up in India where it is illegal to own firearms. The cops can even arrest you if you are carrying a knife openly in public places. The point is in a regular situation where if I get into an argument with another person, say at a bar, the chances that I get shot are go up in US than India or any other place where guns are regulated. I might get stabbed or beaten up (which also constitutes a violent crime) but death by guns is easier. If you don't agree with this fact then this argument is useless.

I noticed that the elected lawmakers are already cautioning folks not to ask for anti-firearms legislation.

HMMMM. So much for representation of the voters.

God forbid that your right to bear arms--and be killed by evrtybody else bearing them--be abrogated.

Facts On Gun Deaths In The USA
The Americans value their constitution and the U.S. Constitution's Second Amendment deals with the right to bear arms. Here is the price that ordinary Americans are paying for the privilege

- 8 children a day die in murders, suicides and accidents involving guns

- since John F. Kennedy was assinated more Americans have died from gunshot wounds at home than died in all the wars of the 20th century

- Osama bin Laden would need at least nine twin towers like attacks each year to equal what Americans do to themselves every year with guns.

- Murder rates in LA, NY and Chigago were approaching the hightest in the world (30 per 100,000) until moves were made in late 20th century to restrict access to guns to teenagers. (The NRA wants these moves reversed)

Children and Gun Violence
In a single year, 3,012 children and teens were killed by gunfire in the United States, according to the latest national data released in 2002. That is one child every three hours; eight children every day; and more than 50 children every week. And every year, at least 4 to 5 times as many kids and teens suffer from non-fatal firearm injuries. (Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics)

America and Gun Violence
American children are more at risk from firearms than the children of any other industrialized nation. In one year, firearms killed no children in Japan, 19 in Great Britain, 57 in Germany, 109 in France, 153 in Canada, and 5,285 in the United States. (Centers for Disease Control)

http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/ss5302a1.htm

In the United States, 70.8% of all deaths among youth and young adults aged 10--24 years result from only four causes: motor-vehicle crashes (32.3%), other unintentional injuries (11.7%), homicide (15.1%), and suicide (11.7%)

Peace Warrior
America is losing too many children to gun violence. Between 1979 and 2001, gunfire killed 90,000 children and teens in America.

Isn't it amazing how the article doesn't give a link to the information from the Children's Defense Fund and National Center for Health Statistics.

Anyway here it is.

Children's defence fund.
http://www.childrensdefense.org/site/PageServer?pagename=education_gunviolence_gunreport2005_default

"CDF's analysis of newly available data from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention shows that 2,867 children and teens died from gunfire in the U.S. in 2002"

"Firearms are the second leading cause of death among 10- to 19-year-olds, after motor vehicle accidents."

I guess we need to outlaw motor vehicles also.

I couldn't find a valid number for homicides and that what we need to work on with children. Accidental deaths by guns should be addressed by gun safety courses instead of banning guns. It actually works better than gun control does. It has been shown the more you ban something the bigger the problem it becomes. All the data supports that and as an example just take a look at drug prohibition which is responsible for a majority of violent crimes in this country. Prohibition is probably responsible for a majority of the homicides committed on children also. I have no way of proving that but drug prohibition is the direct cause of most violent crime in this country.

Peace Warrior you're beating your head against a wall. I don't like the fact that children are getting killed here or in Iraq by Americans. Gun control laws will not stop it, period. Gun safety education will go along way toward reducing it. The NRA Eddie Eagle program is proof of that. I do not belong to the NRA but all facts prove that gun violence goes up with control.

If you look at the statistics the highest rate of gun deaths by children are in states that have the most gun control laws and the smallest gun safety education requirements. Lack of education is the issue here. I do support instant background checks. As far as the black market is concerned you have less control under a prohibition style system than a non-prohibition style system.

Ending drug prohibition will do more to reduce gun violence in this country than any gun control law you could write.

Gun safety education in public schools will do more to eliminate accidental shooting among children than restricting guns will and the younger you start teaching them the better.

No I don't like children dying but gun control laws are a cop out solution that won't work.

I live in an area where the average household contains 3.5 guns and the children start learning how to shoot at the same time their learning how to walk. We don't have the accidental shooting or gun violence the more restrictive parts of the country does.

As far as the violence going on in major cities like LA well that's created by the black market which is the direct result of drug prohibition. You want to end close to three quarters of the violent crime in this country and a good part of children getting killed legalize recreational drug use. It's not the drug users committing the crimes it's the black market drug dealers.

It's that same black market that is making a lot of our kids turn into thugs and murders.

Quit taking the easy way out it does nobody good.

Spartanladkenny
How is rape, burglary and other crimes are related to whether people own guns or not?

That's easy if a rapist or other type criminal think you might have a gun he will go looking someplace else for a victim. In areas where conceal permits are allowed the outlaws don't know who may or may not have a gun. I have a lady friend who has already stopped two rape or robbery attempts and she wasn't even the victim.

Spartanladkenny
Americans have always owned guns. The crime rates have fluctuated in the last 30 years regardless of whether people own guns or not.

True it's probably has more to do with economic equality more than anything else. It's a known fact though that where guns are second nature among the population the less likely guns are used in crime.

Spartanladkenny
The point is in a regular situation where if I get into an argument with another person, say at a bar, the chances that I get shot are go up in US than India or any other place where guns are regulated.

In India I don't know but in the UK and Australia gun deaths are down but violent crime like rape, burglary, home invasions, strong arm robbery and homicides are up. Why? The outlaw knows you don't have a gun. The average outlaw is a coward and he's not going to mess with someone if he thinks they might have a gun.

] I might get stabbed or beaten up (which also constitutes a violent crime) but death by guns is easier.

Actually due to infection you more apt to survive a bullet wound than a knife wound. A deep knife wound is second only to bites in the minds of doctors as to causing major infections.

Gun violence is a terrible thing but let don't take the easy way out and start banning guns just to make our selves feel better. It's not going to work.

Check this link out.

Japan has some of the world's strictest gun laws.

Mayor of Nagasaki assassinated by gangster
By Hiroko Tabuchi
The Associated Press
TOKYO — The mayor of the Japanese city of Nagasaki was shot to death in a brazen attack today by an organized crime chief apparently enraged that the city refused to compensate him after his car was damaged at a public works construction site, police said.

I think all these comments are missing one important point: 'civilized' countries that ban or restrict gun ownership usually have a strong social safety net - something that no longer exists in the US. We did have an era where violence was practically unknown and all of us felt safe at home, or even walking after dark - those 'socialist' Eisenhower years. The NRA was not a bunch of fanatics back then, and most cops never fired a gun - and there were no severe drug laws, no paramilitary SWAT teams, little economic inequality (I didn't live down South, mind you) and a lot fewer laws. I also lived in Europe - anything and everthing is stolen, home burglary and car theft are normal - SOP - and thugs roam freely, preying on the weak. (Check out the gangs of teenage thugs and their rackets in France) Socialism doesn't solve everything, but it does turn the temperature down - there is less violent crime. Culture means a lot though - we took knives and guns to school (where we had classes in gun safety) and nobody said anything about it - it was SOP. So what has changed? Fascism maybe? Spending most of our tax dollars on warmongering? Arming local police better than some small countries? Are citizens 'the enemy' - apparently so, if they're poor or non-white. These are social issues - this isn't about guns, but about culture. Fear of the foreign 'other' has been instilled since WWII and abused by the government to transfer wealth from ordinary people to the wealthiest and corporations. Of course there is going to be more violence - there is far more stress, and no outlets. We don't control our government, our jobs, or our own destiny anymore. And FDR made it all possible with the New Deal - kill socialism in the US. Then take back the social supports that make a civil society work - you return to an uncivilized dog-eat-dog society. That's what we're seeing - it has nothing to do with guns. It's a social disease, and fear is used to divert our attention from the real problem.

Join the rioting mob - or resist the urge to throw rocks at the nearest target. The military wouldn't work without socialism - that's okay for them, apparently, but not for the rest of us. Same goes for Congress - they get socialist perks, as do corporate honchos - but we get the bill. Anything wrong with that picture? And you wonder why some people are mad? Give me a break. And it will only get worse and fascism settles in. We are diverting the bulk of our resources to militarism, both at home and abroad - there's not enough left for the rest of society to function. We are no longer 'civilized' in the sense of the industrialized world. And we're steadily regressing as the militarism budget escalates. It will only get far far worse.

As a nation, Americans have got to stop putting people in 'camps' and classifying people as haters/lovers/admirers/fanatics etc, if there's to be movement on a feasible solution.

1. No guns at all ? Not happening. Also, there are folks out there with genuine needs, recreational or otherwise.

2. Let anyone buy ? Probably not a wise idea - too many "wrong ones" (this may not be an individual's permanent state but more a reactive state of mind, for a while) have access too easily. I mean even booze is legally not accessible to kids for a certain reason. No harm being much much more selective about who gets the guns, ammo.

Guns are not 'evil' or anything - just like fire etc. In the wrong hands, in the wrong context, they're lethal and murderous. In the right context, they protect and help establish rule of law, or provide entertainment, or food. The idea is to reduce the former context as much as possible, without impacting genuine instances of the latter. Is that bad ?

Calling the other names closes the debate pretty quickly, and just shows up a tendency to not want to solve things but merely have one's way.