JP

I think at last count, there were 7 dangerous villains incarcerated at Guantanamo....

Out of a prisoner population of 700 approx....What a dreadful waste of resources.....

I think it's a publicity stunt to vindicate the Bush Administration's draconian, specious, sinister and failed Foreign Policy....

When USAns don't get their way, many thousands of them turn violent and destroy entire states - along with hundreds of thousands, to millions, of the state's inhabitants. Some of them get to fly planes at 30,000 feet and rain many thousands of tons of bombs into inhabited buildings.

So, after many decades of this behavior on part of the US, nineteen men, regarded as insane criminals in their home countries, in a stunningly simple plot, hijack four planes and crash them into the buildings specifically selected because they were symbols the US's exploitative economic power, and it's military power. The failed fourth plane was no doubt intended for the symbol of the stupendous power of it's chief executive. The death toll was about 3000, or less than a 3000th of the death and misery inflicted by the US in it's wars, covert/proxy wars, and economic plunder.

Dear fleetocanada,

"In Canada there are people who come from other countries who wish to set up little models of their own countries rather than become part of Canadian society"

"When they don't get their way, they turn violent and undermine the authority of the state. Some of them decide to fly planes into buildings."

So, I see Canada has bigoted, nativist, uninformed yahoos too!

Speaking of fleeing to Canada, my brother and his gay partner have obtianed their landed Canadian immigrant status and plan to move to a part of Toronto, near the local Catholic Worker/Christian Peacemaker House, that is largely populated by Muslim South Asians and middle easterners. They have expressed no concern for their safety.

They currently live in neighborhood that is full of dagos, that even after 80 years still insist in making the neighborhood a "little model of their own country" - family groderies, sausage and deli shops, bocci courts, restaurants with delicious food, Italian still spoken - Ugh! Gross!

Also some parts of town are full of brown Indians - Hindu temples, Sikh temples, Jain temples, finny alphabets, colorful saris; movies with hot romantic dancing; delicious, spicy, healthful food. Ugh, bleech, tres-gross!!!

Just before this fascinating debate dies. for John F Butterfield, I am sure Seymour Hersch refers to being told by (Rimsfeld?? SOmeone in that ilk) that there were many Abu Ghraib pics far to disturbing for us little people to be shown.

Colleen - many thanks for the Howard links, I do a bit of writing so am most grateful. They did a real 'clunk' in my head.

Let's all keep on keeping on!

One other point I would like to address to FleetoCanada is that if at least some of the prisoners held at Guantanamo are indeed bent on killing us simply because the hate us for being a secular liberal democracy (or in bushese: "the hate us because we are free"), then by all means they should be tried in a court of law, not a kangaroo court, so that their guilt is proven for all the world to see and believe.

In fact, if some of these people are guilty, then only a real and honest trial will protect us from them, since Guantanamo has so discredited the US, no one can trust that any of these prisoners are guilty. Instead of evoking condemnation of the guilty, Guantanamo only garners sympathy for them.

Canada is a wonderful nation with a great deal of freedom.
This link will take you to a rating of world cities for quality of living:

http://mercerhr.com/knowledgecenter/reportsummary.jhtml/dynamic/idContent/1128060;jsessionid=YP3MCWLTK...

The top 5 cities in the Americas (thats including the US)for quality of living

Vancouver (3rd)

Toronto (15th)

Ottawa (tied for 18th)

Montreal (22nd)

Calgary (24th)

The highest US cities were Honolulu and San Francisco tied at # 27

All the rest of you folks seemed to have addressed Fleeto's questions. I would add, that I am no pacifist when it comes to the self defense of my nation. I would make the qualification, however, that I will only support LEGAL and MORAL defense directed toward those that actually attack America. Attacking, destroying, and the wonton killing of civilians of an ENTIRE country that did no harm to the U.S. is ABSOLUTELY indefenseable and evil!!

Flee to Canada, I am sure there are people out there who would cut my head off just because I am from Cleveland. There always have been. That is no excuse for rounding up Muslims, more or less at random, and subjecting them to torture.

If your only consideration is being as safe as possible, go up and down every street, kick in every door, search every house. If you wouldn't do it here then doing it in some other country that has never threatened us is equally unconscionable.

fleetocanada

This is more than getting our hands dirty. The Bush administration is undermining thousands of years of progress in human rights in the west. I can understand in the heat of a battle, under combat conditions, for people to use extreme measures like torture. I do not condone it, but the use of torture can be a human reaction to extreme fear and an extreme threat.

But this is not about those conditions. This is about the laws of a government that have been changed by the Bush administration in order to allow torture, even though it is unclear how successful torture is in gaining real information. Most people will say whatever you want them to say when tortured.

And innocent people have been tortured. How many innocent people should be tortured in order to get some information finally? 10? 100? 1000?

In the west we use courts of law to determine what should happen to people who are suspected of crimes. That should be happening at Guantanamo also. The Bush administration has circumvented western values about the law. They have undermined the Geneva Convention and established a precedence that now allows captured people, innocent or guilty, to be tortured.

"When they don't get their way, they turn violent and undermine the authority of the state. Some of them decide to fly planes into buildings."(fleetocanada)

The people who flew the planes into the world trade center were not reacting to Canada. They were reacting to the US policies in the ME, which have helped prop up dictators so that oil companies could take oil. Those dictators have used torture. Saddam Hussein at one time was supported by the US.

There was no excuse for the killing of innocent people on 9/11, just as there is no excuse for the torture of innocent people.

The ME is a mess and lacks basic human rights. Human rights will not be brought to the region with wars.

Right now a great deal of people stay in oppressed lifestyles because the outcome of leaving them is worse than staying in the ones they are already in.

What can one say? Sounds just like the Gonzales, who seem never to have read the Constitution, and who doesn't seem to care what anyone thinks about these nefarious methods. Alas, the transgressions won't end when Gozales is fired, either; this is a rot that stems fromm Bush and Cheney and permeates our once renowned justiced system. War crimes trials, anyone?

Unfortunately, I understand where you are coming from Observer. I too felt oppressed by Christian dogma. Once I realized it didn't work for me I stepped away, I didn't fight it with violence. There is a diplomatic peaceful way of dealing with it.

It is only too true what Nietzsche stated,"Unrestrained capitalism is responsible for a single mother's neglect of her children while working minimum wage jobs."

Family's have been suffering as a result of this government's action the most! Divide and conquer! It is very sick society.

MA_Matriarch:

"Most religions are peaceful"??? Yes, they are. But by definition, religions, as they are understood, in the so called West, claim the Absolute Truth of their teachings, for they point their origin to supernatural. Thus, with the passing of time they move further and further from Reality. Look at horse baggy of Pennsylvanian Dutch, at Hassidim dressed according to a 18th century fashion, or at proponents of Rupture. Thus, possession of ultimate Truth engenders ultimate righteousness, and ultimate righteousness engenders ultimate bellicosity.
Paraphrasing famous mantra, religions might be peaceful but religious people are not. Karl Marx once said that his only dogma is that he does not hold any dogma. And look what Marxists did in his name!

That is why the wise have to get their heads together and do something non-violent and set the example. Once it starts working then more people will come to see the truth of the matter and follow.

Right now too many people are scared and oppressed.

Bravo, Rebel Farmer!

It is yet to be proved who is responsible flying those planes into those buildings.

You have to follow the path of where that has lent this country FleetoCanada!

Most religions are peaceful and people should be able to practice them as long as they do NOT cause anyone any harm.

Kafka's "THE TRIAL" express the anxieties and alienation of 20th-century humanity, highly
prescient in Hicks travesty of injustice!!!

The anonymous hero of Kafka's novel,
"The Trial"begun in 1914 and published in 1925, is suddenly arrested and accused of a crime, the nature of which is never explained. Put before a mysterious court, he is finally condemned to death and executed on the eve of his thirty-first birthday. Though he does not understand his fate, he accepts the trial and follows the orders of the court conscientiously. Kafka shows man to be awakened to the consciousness of original sin: all men are condemned to death in this world in which there is no justice. Joseph K., the protagonist, has only one basic guilt: that he is a human being, a mortal who, by ordinary civil standards, would undoubtedly be considered innocent. The book, therefore, is a parable of an average man in a state of crisis, and of his defeat.

Bush has become persona non grata to the rest of the world. Following his latest round of delusional speeches should be committed to a criminal institution for the mentally insane...

Think these are strong words...He's the real decider he keeps reminding us....

Well Bush's handy work in deaths in Iraq, is now approaching....

POL POT in CAMBODIA in 1975....

Rebel Farmer: I agree that American foreign policy has often been unfair and aggressive and even against our national interests. But, can you also agree that there are forces in the world that simply hate America and the West because they are secular, liberal states, period.

In Canada there are people who come from other countries who wish to set up little models of their own countries rather than become part of Canadian society. They want to set up little Israels, or little Pakistans where they can run their community by Sharia, or Hassidic laws and expect the state to let them do it.

When they don't get their way, they turn violent and undermine the authority of the state. Some of them decide to fly planes into buildings.

Many of us have had enough. What do you put forward as a solution to these problems? Ignore them?

Fleeto: I understand your fears, but the approach of fighting violence with violence will not work and never has. That's why we are in our current situation. You might want to consider that the violence, destruction, and death that the U.S. has visited on the peoples of the world might have something to do with their violent counter actions on the U.S. Not the mention the the theft by the U.S. of other countrys' resources and soverienty. We need to stop looking at the symptom of violence, and start addressing it's cause.

Nietzsche: Continuing the thread? Thanks!

I would add, that the "powers that be" need to know WHY the American people make the "sacrifice" of not cosuming ANYTHING for one day. And by not consuming, that means electricty too. Can We The People get it together like the Aussies did last week and make the entire country go dark for a while? Only the glow of fireworks on the 4th? Having dinner by candle light?

I don't like the Guantonimo prison or anything it stands for. I think its only making the situation worse.

Still, at the same time, I get the impression that most of you that have responded here think all these people are simply victims of US aggression. I'm sure some of them are.

At the same time, there really are some very nasty people out there that wouldn't hesitate a second to slice your head off just because you were born in Cleveland. Some of those fanatics would like nothing more than to blow up a nuclear device in some American city.

What are we supposed to do, just let it happen because we refuse to get our hands dirty?

July 4 is the day to stay at home--Buy nothing. It will cost so little and say so much. There has never been a state like this one--If greedy consumerism is rejected it will crumble. All we have to do is nothing.

Violence is a Faustian bargain. It may accomplish your ends for you but you don't control it. It controls you.

Governments owe their existence to violence, they maintain their authority through violence. Violent revolution replaces one gang of criminals with another--a gang that is a bit better or a bit worse than the one it replaces, but still a gang.

"The state imagines it is impotent without a military because it cannot conceive of power without force"--Mark Kurlansky Nonviolence is the only thing a state is truly afraid of, or has reason to fear.

Violence is better than passivity but nothing will fundamentally change until nonviolent revolution succeeds. Don't think it can't work--it's the only thing that ever has made meaningful change.

An oppressed people can be more easily persuaded to sacrifice their lives in futile rebellion than sacrifice their lives in nonviolent resistance, but power will always point to the use of force as proof that their oppressive tactics were necessary all along, and that violence is the only way.

Nice one, Ullern.

Compare Hicks with the 15 detained British Forces members in Iran. Those 15 marines, part of the war force occupying the Persian Gulf and closing it to ships that they deem unfriendly, will eventually be released by Iran. They will come home and say, of course, that they didn't mean what they say in their confessions, that they had been coerced. tony blair (he lost the right to have his name capitalised some time ago) will blather on about democracy versus tyranny yaddah yaddah yaddah. Meanwhile, Hicks will live in fear for the rest of his life. If he speaks out against the torture to which he was subjected (not abuse - it was torture) then he will be imprisoned without trial for the rest of his life.

The British marines will be heroes, feted in the mindless newspapers of Britain, and they will never fear walking down the street and being bundled into the back of a truck by Iranian Revolutionary Guards and flown with the help of their own government to a secret prison to be tortured for the rest of their lives. But that is what will happen to Hicks. Australia has shown that they support wholeheartedly the removal of citizens to undislosed locations and support their torture. He will have no protection under the law because the law in Australia (and Britian, Canada and of course the US) is either ignored or is designed to enshrine torture in the legal process.

If my memory is correct, Donal Rumsfeld one said there were additional Abu Ghraib photos that he had seen, but they were too horrible for the American public to see. The American public has never seen them.

The light sentence is but a method for softening-up condemnation and continuation of these illegal, immoral and unConstitutional trials. Just soft enough for skeptics to accept the absurdity and a decision reeking of international political manipulations.
- - -
We have enough justifications to invoke the "Jefferson Clause" of occasional armed rebellion and revolution against the present murderous, antiConstitutionalist, anti-democratic, illegal Bush administration. Start now, or support those who do...

Action speaks louder than words! With the right intentions in heart I believe with all my heart we can make this world a better place. But first one has to break free!

Some heavy opinions in here which I totally agree with. To wake up and realize one's way of life was misleading you is a very painful process. I am proud of those willing to go through it. It happened to me about 8 years ago, but the good thing is the other side is very beautiful place so it is worth it. It is nice to know that God truly exists and magic happens.

I don't know about blood shedding deal. To be quite honest, I believed that is being provoked! I truly don't think it is the way to go. I think it is time to quit talking and start taking action. There is absolutely NOTHING more powerful than love. I think this country is aching for trust and honor. I think it is time to start doing it no matter what the consequences may be because in the end that is what will win for the good of all.

I don

Wasn't it nice to see the recent tete-a-tete between Cheney and Howard? I wonder if that was when they worked this whole thing out with Hicks. And it was VERY cool to see the Aussies protesting. I think they hate Cheney almost as much as we do! Good on the Aussies!

jassim

John Howard is the current prime minister of Australia and he is an odious little man who has lied about refugee seekers throwing their children over board from boats to gain illegal entry into Australia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_Overboard_Affair

This man has worked hard and long for Bush in Australia. He is now probably going to lose the election in Australia and in an attempt to help Howard I think Hicks has been freed from Guantanamo

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/01/news/hicks.php

"Bob Brown, the leader of the Greens Party and a senator, said, "This is more about saving Mr. Howard's political hide than about justice for Hicks."

"He added in a statement, "It is clearly a political fix arranged between Mr. Howard and the Bush administration to shut up Hicks until after the election in November."

Howard is very cunning but it looks like he will lose in November.

With the near pathological secrecy and deceit of the Admin and Pentagon, the abuses we have seen so far are only the tip of the iceberg. You can bet that for every photo that came out of Abu Graib 1,000 unphotographed humiliations and tortures remain undocumented. It is often said by historians that "new" empire takes on the trappings of the "old". And even though the nazis only "ruled" for a brief time, their replacment empire is certainly looking more and more like them, day by day. The Americans are the ones finding scapegoats, attacking non-hostile countries to steal their resources and setting up concentration camps. We have become what we destroyed in WWII- the evil, fascist empire of the world. Good job republicans.....

Show trials in secret courts with secret evidence and defendants whose "confession" was tortured out of them are now offical policy - for our own "security", of course. While America walks in its sleep, fascism is steadily gaining a foothold in this country. Torture is even lauded on prime time TV programs which further hypnotize the already brain dead. Don't think full blown fascism can't happen here, either. That's what most Germans would have told you in 1930 about their country.
Kangaroo courts have always existed for the poor in the U.S. Those who can't afford a good lawyer or any lawyer (overwhelmingly minorities, of course) go to jail in hugely disproportionate numbers, whether in reality they're guilty or innocent. If we had anything worthy of the name "press" here, Americans would know also that torture has existed since time immemorial in the U.S. prison system. It's just a bit better hidden there than in Guantanamo.
Homicidal, sadistic, tyrannical lunatics are in charge of our country. If we don't demand it back and take any means necessary to do that, then we have only ourselves to blame for its demise into a despotic police state.

And they say that we who opposed Vietnam then and Iraq now don't acknowledge the communists' faults.

Hi Nietzsche,

You write:

'The short girl pointing to the genitals of prisoners, Ivan Fredrick, and all other torturers at Gitmo Should be released immediately. Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice should take their places.'

I have a further list to add as to who shld take their places. Ivan Fredrick and the girl, Lindsey England I think it was, were at Abu Ghraib. But anyway spot the difference. And General Karpinski was reported to be in charge of eleven prisons in all in Iraq, which it appears she never visited. So if she didn't know what was happening under her nose ...

What happened (is happening now) to other condemned souls. Guantanmo stuff drips out, but what of the apparent countless disappeared into prisons across the globe (see Craig Murray on Uzbekistan 'Murder in Samarkand'.)

Keep on keeping on - and I love the one word Kafka remark. Says it all.Thank heaven for fellow travellers!

Gitmo is a microcosm of what US society has become: One percent of the most powerful in our nation and in Guantanamo have placed the other ninety percent in a situation that practically guarantees they will behave in such a shameful way that nobody will even talk about it later.

The short girl pointing to the genitals of prisoners, Ivan Fredrick, and all other torturers at Gitmo Should be released immediately. Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Rice should take their places.

I have no doubt that the Bush White House paid a group of greedy and amoral psychologists thirty pieces of silver to engineer Gitmo. Unrestrained capitalism is responsible for a single mother's neglect of her children while working minimum wage jobs.

In continuation to my observations. I believe the US is such a beautiful country full of goodness, intelligence, kindness and mercy. Yet there are some people who have ruined all of that; using tactics, worthy of Stalin.

This is unacceptable, but also as John said,
"We all want to change the world
But when you talk about destruction
Don't you know you can count me out
Don't you know it's gonna be alright
Alright Alright"

Blood leads to more blood, it always has, Ghandi was right. Doing things that way took a lot of courage, hopefully we can bring that together again today.

Kafka

What a dilemma the United States and her people find themselves in. The Constitution demands that when it becomes known that a government has forgotten democracy and started dealing in tyranny, then it is by all means necessary for the blood of patriots to be spilled, by revolution with the aim of restoring liberty and justice for all. This is what the Constitution of the country demands and is I feel, the main reason it was written.

I do not think the American people are ready stomach what this means. Unfortunately, they will therefore, lose their freedom and become slaves to their own corruption.

I thought I knew a bit about Guantanamo, can someone explain though, how it can be dictated by the US, to an Australian citizen, to be returned to Australiam when he can talk???

Does the US really run the world now, in other countries jurisdictions?? Heaven help us. Tell me I am wrong.

It's kind of like making a deal with someone you have kidanpped and tortured. We will let you go if you promise never to talk about your kidnapping and torture.
He should be free to say anything he wants. He should in fact retain a lawyer and sue for damages after his release. That is once safely out of America. Our secret agencies have a pretty long arm and I don't know if he would be safe even in his own country.
All of the people in Guantanimo should be released immediately and the criminals who put them there should take thier place.