Dresner,

I admit you managed to get under my skin to the point where I started to look for you as contributor to other threads. But I bear you no grudge, although it's the first time that I have found myself being the lab mouse. I am just relieved that there is one less character like the one you have portrayed even though there are innumerable more left out there. If you are in trouble, you deserve it. Thank you for owning up.

Ok guys i'm sorry, I wasn't for a second engaging you in honest political debate, I'm a psychology student undertaking a study in the intensity of both highly conservative and libertarian thought.

Thank you for the quotes, I promise to change all the I.D's so your anonimity is assured and I hope you understand my only intention was just to gauge reactions of certain polarised points of view, there's a very conservative website threatening to kill me right now :)

Take care.

What a disgrace this article is. I guess these sailors, who by the way where captured while doing routine inspections to help keep that part of the world safer, are lying now that they are safe and sound at home. How do you think Iran treats people who they didn't abduct from a more powerful nation under international attention? Your reaction to this and presumably the Iranian murder of 4 soldiers the next day, is exactly what Iran hoped to achieve. How do you think Iran would behave if it was the worlds superpower?
Terry has a twisted angle on humor, which is very funny, but his twisted view on world politics is not.

*****Klaus******
Very good points, and here are some more to back up the perspective you have shown a light upon.

Ahmadinejad Meeting With The Orthodox Element, check it out here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xA1DbBAcOQ

As you can see, Ahmadinejad has no problem with Hebrews, it is the militancy Element ensconced in the land, the rule by force that worry's and perturbs, not only his soul, but the souls of many others.

Best wishes and hope

Andrewr, as I said, you are not only well-informed but also insightful. You just proved it.

You see, Klaus - I am well informed and yet still subject to western media propaganda! That is a measure of the problem.

Andrewr, you show yourself insightful and well-informed and I agree witheverything you say in your last two contributions except for one thing.

Why do you perpetuate that old canard that the Iranian president called for Israel to be wiped off the map when in effect he said that the Israeli regime should be wiped off the pages of history. These are two very different things.

I was objecting to the rather childlike use of liberalism to describe everyone involved in this debate. Some people think any one west of Hillary Clinton is a liberal while that is a rather simplistic - and wholly wrong - description.

I don't think I would categorise Israel's possessoin of nuclear weapons as being something that would help them stave off destruction. You have to remember the size of countires in that region. Israel couldn't even nuke Tehran without suffereing the fallout itself, let alone one of the Arab countries. And nukes are supposed only to be a detterent right? Not to be used ever. So considering Israel denies having them it is not much of a deterrent. (although of course they were happy to lock up Mordechai Vanunu for 18 years in solitary confinement for telling the Times about the nukes they DON'T possess).

The stupidest thing about Israel having nukes, paid for by you the tax payer, is that the argument for the possession of such a vast nuclear aresenal form the industrial-miltary pack in the 1950s - 1990s was that they are only there as a deterrent, to provide mutually assured destruction. Following on for this reason then we should give nukes to wither Iran or an Arab country in order to counter balance the Israeli nuclear arsenal.

As for the mistreatment of the Palestinians it will not be solved by any American govermnent because they are always pro-Zionist to the detrement of everyone, including obviously the Israelis themselves who are hooked on American welfare payments. No one running in 2008 will solve the problem - not Obama, not Edwards and certainly none of the others because they are only interested in keeping Israel as their military balwark in the region. The state of perpetual war is just what the corporate government of the USA be it Gingrich, McCain, Clinton or Obama because it justifes military spending. The American Empire will continue to decline becasue pf this in part - but it just serves to make that decline more perilous for the entire world and American citizens.

I don't think American support had anything to do with revenge for the hostage crisis - that actually helped win Reagan the presidency. It had a lot to do with the usual: who controls the oil. America had spent a lot of time and money with Britain destroying democracy in Iran and were pretty peeved to find all their work undone in 12 months by the arrival of the Ayatollahs after the revolution (althoug that didn't stop them from feeding the Islamic regime the intelligence they needed to destroy the left wing movement in Iran: the only rivals to the Islamic revolution.) So it was easy to justify helping Saddam to attack his neighbor without provocation and use chemical weapons. It was seen as being in American interest. In 1990 he did was Iran had done - refused to follow the Washington script and he was duly punished.

Andrewr, left wing like right wing will get clipped. The Dems started to get back to a "gap" center and won in '06. As for us supporting Saddam in the 80's, we all know it was about revenge for the hostage crisis of '79. Remember the book "Blowback". Look it up. The whole premise is not new as in the 30's we hated the USSR, then came WWII and it was good old Uncle Joe Stalin and after the war it was back to hating them. As for Israel and the nukes, when there are four countries around you trying to wipe you off the map you better believe that they wanted a deterant. Might be why there hasn't been a real war in 40 years. I'm not happy anymore than you with their mistreatment of the Palestinians but we can only hope that sometime in our life time it will be resolved.

Liberalism, Dresner? Who are you addressing? I am not a liberal. I am left wing. There is a difference and I wish a few more people understood it.

Klaus, good point about who DOES have nuclear weapons. Obviously I don't have one second for Ahmadinejad's argument that the Holocaust never happened. But on the other hand, when he says he wants Israel wiped off the map why is SAYING this deemed worse than actually wiping a country off the map, as Israel did with Palestine? Why is saying you don't have or want nuclear weapons WORSE than having them? Why did American support countries with weapons and money (Israel and Saddam's Iraq) when they invade and illegally occupy parts of other countries (Iran in the case of Saddam's Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Syria) - and let's not forget that Israel has not only occupied and buthchered, it has illegally annexed parts of the West Bank and the Golan Heights.

Why, in bush's world, is it worse to say you want to do something (eg wipe Israel off the map), say you don't want to do something (eg have nukes) than to actually do or have these things (Iraq in the 80s, Israel now)?

Dresner, I had not expected to get back into this waning thread but then I had not expected you to crawl out from under your rock again and throw your barbs.

If you appreciate the opinions posted in response to your previous contribution, you must be a glutton for punishment or a liar. I am certain it is the latter. It fits in well with your "ideology" as I perceive it.

You assure us that you will not trivialize the very serious situation involving the British captives by entertaining this your
right to your ideology. Have I got this right? (You really don't express yourself very clearly.) But then you DO go right ahead and and describe this situation from your ideologically tainted point of view.

What has Ahmadinejad's scepticism regarding the holocaust have to do with the justification of arresting the British? How does this personal view of Ahmadinejad invalidate Iran's standing as "a reasonable political state"? I could go here into all the arguments regarding which of Iran and Israel/USA is the less reasonable state, among which is
-who DOES have nuclear weapons and is
willing and eager to use them?
-who has time and again attacked her
neighbours?
-who has stolen another people's land
and keeps her victims in cruel
subjugation?
As you are probably aware, this list could be extended practically endlessly.

So you are "sad to have witnessed liberalism gone full circle"! Again, due to your limited ability to accurately express yourself, I can only surmise that you mean to state your contempt for the political views of the majority of participants in this discussion.

Like a truculent kid after a spanking, you had to get your two cents worth in and only managed to out yourself as another product of brainwashing.

"He loved Big Brother." Shalom

And yet neither the British nor US governments can see the ridiculousness of the situation - the 5 Iranian diplomats are probably being tortured, while the 15 Brits are very visible and clearly not suffering from anything but uncertainty.

If you open the dictionary and look the word irony there is a picture of tony blair speaking about the British detainees in Iran.

But then when it comes to the whole region it is all pretty ironic. Britain and America (and for that matter Kuwait) supported Saddam Hussein when he invaded Iran and would do nothing to stop him. They armed him while he used chemical weapons in a war of aggression against Iran; yet when he invaded Kuwait, on much more justification than when he invaed Iran, they turned upon the protege. When Iraq attacked the USS Stark during their war with Iraq, the USA managed to blame Iran for the whole conflict and came to the defense of Iraq - who had attacked their ship! It would be funny if it didn't cost 100s of thousands of lives.

Thank you, all of you who have participated in this debate, I appreciate your opinions I really do. While we we may not agree on our politics I once enjoyed our interaction.

You may question my ideology but I will not entertain that right now and trivialize a very serious situation. As of when I write there are several 'captives' being held by a nation who's political leader denies the holocaust ever happened, your comments regarding the validity of Iran as reasonable political state are as worthy as saying Faye Turner has suddenly decided headscarves are this seasons fashion necessity.

Before you go blowing up some 'gas station' remember you have to fill your cars with 'blood' somewhere.

I'm sad to have witnessed liberalism gone full circle. Heil Liberalism :P

Thanks for the debate, I will see you again no doubt,
Kref Dresner.

Surely, this capturing of the british sailors must have something to do with the US capture of 5 Iranian diplomats in Iraq in January - against the protests of the Iraqi government itself. Their whereabouts are unknown - in a US interrogation center somehwere - and you can be sure they not being treated nearly as well

And let us compare the detention of the 15 British marines held by Iran with the detention, torture and "trial" of David Hicks. Britain and America are wringing their hands and saying how awful it is that these British troops are being forced to admit they broke international law when they didn't blah blah blah.

Menawhile, Hicks is forced under torture to confess and then is denied a trial. He is bought with a shorter sentence, but essentially he is forced to admit something under torture, and then when he is brought to court he has no choice as his defence team is removed one by one.

When the British sailors are relaesed they will say that of course they didn't mean what they said on Iranian TV and in their letters. When Hicks is released he will live with the threat of immedaite return to detention and torture for the rest of his life. When the British sailors are relased they will not be walking down the street at home one day and be bundled into the back of a truck by Iranian Revolutionary guards. It just won't happen. But for Hicks that will be the very real threat to him for the rest of his life: one day the CIA will kidnap him again and return him to detention and torture indefinitely.

Indictments and impeachment-nothing else left to do,but whose got the nerve?

Suhail, I think you miss the gist of the article. It doesn't matter if the British soldiers were in Iranian, Iraqi or International waters. A whole other article could be written on legally or illeglly capturing and detaining people. I think this article is comparing the Iranian treatment of prisoners to the well known American and British treatment of their prisoners. Especially American. It's embarassing and disconcerting to me, as an American, to be compared to a mideast country regarding human rights and to be found wanting.
FleetoCanada, we use to be free and liberal but I don't feel that way anymore. However, I am not afraid of Islamic people poisoning my mind with their "irrational nonsense" nor do I fear any religion changing my beliefs in God and Christianity. They all ask the same question: How shall I live my life? I have already made up my mind. That's one of the reasons that I feel so sad that our government's treatment of prisoners in this dreaded War on Terror.

The British sailors are clearly being treated well by the Iranians.

The question is this - did the Brits actually stray into Iranian waters, or did they get arrested while in International waters ? If they did get arrested in Iranian waters then the Iranian govt is within it's rights to arrest them as the British milatary has no right to sneak up into the waters of other sovereign countries any more than it has the right to invade an attack other sovereign nations such as Iraq

But on the other hand if the British sailors were in International waters then it makes sense that the British were outraged as the Iranians were arresting them in a manner than resembles a kidnapping.

So the crux of the matter is this - were the British soldiers in Iranian or International waters ? The jury is still out there !

"The pioneers of a warless world will be the young men (and women) who refuse military service." Albert Einstein

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition! That's all I have to say. I figured it was on point and moderately humorous, in keeping with the tone of the former.

Fleeto...only good thing coming out of Iran..dates??? Have you no memory of history? Does America's most popular poet, Rumi, not come from Iran for one tiny example??
I noticed the delicious looking lavash, the sailors were eating...and recalled how the hostages of 1979 complained that they were fed rice every day (as every well-fed Iranian is) and suffered from lack of dental floss!! Look it up, this was in Newsweek. While not fun to be held captive, they are not being tortured..and what the hell were they doing in EITHER Iranian or Iraqi waters..what the hell are they doing occupying Iraq?? And the "diplomacy" of Bush and Blair...blaming and name calling so often gets you what you want? A ten year old could do a better job. And wasn't it just so smart of Bush to call them "hostages" invoking 1979. This country is nothing, if not an embarrassment.

One must be very honest here. I would still much rather live in England than in Iran. The only good thing that comes out of Iran is dates--they're juicy and sweet and far better than those grown in California.

I do get the sense that this whole thing is shaping up to be a clash between the forces of liberalism and Islam. The two are like water and oil. Islam is already the world's fastest growing religion and while everyone is in a panic about terrorists and bombs, the real threat comes from the massive immigration of Islamists into Western Europe, Canada, and the United States.

What is worse? The masks that are forced on the faces of some terrorists...or the blinders we choose to wear over our own eyes?

If these Islamic states want to continue to live in the Middle Ages, I say let them. Leave them alone, but don't let any more of them come and colonize and poison with their irrational nonsense our free and liberal States.

I raise my hat to Mr Jones. But hey, all you folks out there please take it easy on Dresner. He is innocent in that he's most probably been brainwashed by the likes of Fox News. For a moment I thought if he's sent to Gitmo as an inmate he would see the reality. Then I realized that with the hood that they would put over his head he wouldn't be able to see anything. Forget about the hood, aanyway. He seems to be doing just the same even without it. Good to hear that he's not going to be visiting this site as often as he used to. Send him back to Fox News.

It's the case of the very BIG POT (UK)

calling the very very LITTLE POT (IRAN)

BLACK.....

It's awfully strange to hear the bleatings of those supportive or complicit in warmongering, torure and violators of the Geneva Conventions in IRAQ....

To all of a sudden awkwardly discover the BOOT inconveniently on the other foot in IRAN!!!

The UK Goverment Psychologist describe Faye Turney state of mind as unhappy and stressed....

Oh dear, seems like Abu Ghraib torture and prisoner abuse scandal is just a FOND and DISTANT memory where guards exchanged holiday snaps.....

Though I have enjoyed Mr Jones work as an entertainer, I found this commentary
offensive, to say the least.

As far as blindfolding, humiliation and psychological torture, Im sure that the
American hostages from thirty years back would love an oppurtunity to
share with Mr Jones how civilized and hospitable the Iranians can be.

Not to mention the scores of Iranians who have been imprisoned, tortured, and murdered
for daring to criticize the Iranian theocracy. Indeed it is only the fact that they are westerners
that their treatment hasnt as yet been as brutal as

He has also conveinetnly ommited the fact that Iran has been directly or indirectly
involved in every mass murder of innocent people commited by Islamic Fundamentalists
in the last 30 years. I wonder how amusing the survivors of the embassy bombings in Kenya and
Tanzania would find his comments. Or the loved ones of the innocent people torn apart.

I would suggest Mr Jones stick to what he does best , acting like a clown.

Altho I appreciate Mr. Jones humour immensely-Im still waiting for some huge blunder on the part of the Iranians concerning the health & safety of the sailors.

In the case of Canadian/Iranian Zahra Kazemi -who was allegedly raped,tortured & murdered in Iranian custody she didnt get quite the grand treatment---for taking photos in the 'wrong' part of a prison.Brutal.

yhttp://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/05/24/iran11007.htm

Dresner March 31st, 2007 10:12 pm

"Why within all reasonable realms of thought would an active Marine request for the withdrawal of Allied forces from Iraq unless under duress? It will be very interesting to see whats said when they are released."

Dresner: Do you think that any of us haven't entertained the idea that the prisoners are perhaps being told what to to write or say? The point is: No hoods. No electric shocks. No beatings.

There have also been recent articles written about the increase among active military who are requesting that their Congressman set a deadline to withdraw the troops from Iraq.

You say: Vulgar idealism? Refusal to accept reality?

Dresner said: "I used to love this website but it's increasingly being hijacked by a vulgar idealism that fails to accept reality and its hypocrisy chokes me."

Whereupon the faithful set upon Dresner with rage.

Common Dreams, and other brethren sites do tend to focus exclusively on what the "English-speaking Empire" does wrong, and I'm delighted to see it. We need to change directions in foreign, environmental, industrial, and energy policy, and it can't happen fast enough.

To accomplish those huge goals, rabid tell-only-what's-wrong and conflate-ruling-class-with-everyone storylines are not going to be effective. You may excite the choir, but there's not going to be *enough* people sitting in the pews to achieve real change. You'll note: there is a conspicuous absence of "here's a former villain that's trying to do right". There are examples of this phenomenon, but they don't show up here very often, do they?

If this Progressive thing is anything more than another chance to feel superior, and change is really what we're after, balance and realism and outreach have to show up somewhere.

Back to Dresner: Please tell us: what's "vulgar idealism", and which aspect of "reality" are we failing to acknowledge, and where are we being hypocritical? Please cite examples.

So long as the Iranians don't inflict the "comfy chair" on their prisoners, I think we might avoid further war.

Firstly Terry Jones a great article one of intelligence, wit and truth.

Dresner, I feel sorry for you as it is YOU who does not see the reality that is out there. Simply put, there is no need for war, ever, we are all one and any harm we do to others we do to ourselves.

The military-industrial complex and it's politician stooges, media whores, religious bigots, corporate leaders and the elite which manage these insidious soulless jerks are our enemies as they are sold out to the darkness.

Human sacrifice never died out they simply changed the "rules" by calling it war and sending countless numbers of innocent young men and women to their deaths for reasons only known to themselves and yet they do not hide it, any military personnel who die in combat is called a sacrifice, wake up people it's is our so-called "rulers" who are the darkness which are trying to destroy us all and bring about the end of the world. They have to be removed from power asap before they realise their goals, before they close down the oppurtunities we have to stop them by making any form of resistance an offence punishable by death.

Open your eyes the truth is right in front of us.

Dresner, are you a politician who loves the power of sending our children to war, or are you a shareholder of a multi-national who makes sqillions out of conflict.

Terry Jones, thank you for that delicious bit of dark humour. It shows up the bizarre hypocrisy of the "war on terror" so much more clearly than any hand-wringing comment can.

Rebel Farmer, while I'm with you all the way in your call for the impeachment of beelzebub (say what you want about Hugo but you can't deny the acuity of his olfactory organs), I don't share your optimism regarding the capacity of the American people to learn from experience. They will follow the centre of evil into the next war just as they did four years ago, goaded by their leaders elected to safeguard them from their own folly and by the corporate media who thrive on turmoil.

Dresner, since you and I apparently hold diametrically opposed positions on this issue, I suppose you represent 'noble pragmatism'. I don't know what that is, but it must involve the idea of "if we invade your space, take hostile trade action against you and threaten to utterly destroy you, don't you dare to raise a finger against us."

Since the Iranians did raise their, little, finger and subsequently treated the legal captives decently, let's at least accuse them of psychological cruelty, by inference at that. When the Russians invaded East Prussia in 1945 they killed untold numbers of young girls and women by raping them till they expired.

But why go back that far? Just consider the young Iraqi girl who was recently raped and killed together with her entire family by her 'liberators'. Dresner, you dare to insinuate, for lack of any more concrete evidence, that your countrymen have been subjected to "duress"! Do us all a favor and crawl back under your rock.

Judging from the track record of the "coalition of the willing" the truth cops give the benefit of the doubt to Iran. Bushco and his Blair Bootlicker have over played their hand too many times and for far too long to have any reasonable person take them seriously. Sadly, if one was to be taken prisoner it's unlikely that person would trade Iran for United States incarceration.

Before going too far into the blame-the-American-public try to understand Bush was not elected, millions of Americans took to the streets to protest an invasion and finally, repeat, finally, the duplicitous United States corporate media, that beat the drums to promote war, is now claiming polls show Bushco with less than 30% support (less than his base) and 7 out of 10 people against continuing the occupation. The latter figure was probably always that high.

Anyway, if Bushco continues his insane and insatiable lust for human carnage, the British troops may be gueats of Iran for a long time.

Okay, folks. This isn't funny anymore!

The Iranians have shown these British soldiers/sailors more respect than the U.S. or the UK governments deserve. And I applaud them for that. I do not, however, believe that these captives should pay for the sins of their governments! We have to uncouple the two.

I particularly disagree with Fleeto. You may be right about what Bush is planning, but Americans aren't going to be rallying around any flag to support him. Not this time! Not ever again!

IMPEACH NOW!!! Don't let an attack on Iran happen! Throw the true evil, corrupt, and insane lot of them in jail before they do more damage....at the very least we can keep them so busy they can't focus on MORE mayham and destruction!

And where the hell are the 5 Iranian diplomats that the U.S. illegally kidnapped?

Nonetheless, the Iranian's, and the British, and of course the Americans, are acting like a bunch of spoiled children, who can't quite figure out how to solve their differences about imaginary lines that strecth out into the sea, without threats and counter-threats.
It's theatre of the absurd, tragic and humiliating to the dignity of decent people - laughable even, if only the lives of these young men and women, and perhaps tens of thousands others, were not in the balance.
And there's the rub: while our "leaders" scratch each other's eyes, the lives of millions of people could ultimately be affected.
Let's hope the kids go home and sulk in their respective corners before all hell breaks loose.

This whole article and thread is nonsense, written entirely on the idea that the physical treatment of the prisoners is whats in question. Being British I don't doubt for a second that the Marines/Sailors are being made to feel very comfertable by the Iranians. What's really in dispute is the not so subtle political statements being made in their postcards. Why within all reasonable realms of thought would an active Marine request for the withdrawal of Allied forces from Iraq unless under duress? It will be very interesting to see whats said when they are released.

I used to love this website but it's increasingly being hijacked by a vulgar idealism that fails to accept reality and its hypocrisy chokes me.

Dresner: Would you mind to explain the meaning of your phrase "it's increasingly being hijacked by a vulgar idealism that fails to accept reality and its hypocrisy chokes me." Is there any world outlook to make sense of what 'vulgar idealism' is and what do you mean by 'reality'? If you are a follower of Dr. Kissinger's realpolitik let you say so.
On another hand, if you are a British patriot, let you say so too.
But judging by your introductory sentence I doubt that you really grasped the tragic irony of the whole situation. The good news are that English-speaking Empire is fading out and fading fast.

Blaring Tony's Flying Pfffft.

When are we going to see a video of the five Iranian diplomats captured in what is supposed to be a sovereign country, 8000 miles from the nearest US territorial waters. There current whereabouts are unknown, no doubt in the US torture-center archipelago somewhere.

No nice meals and floral draperies there...

nr16020...the problem is not with American politics, its with modern American culture. People do not care about ideologies any longer...they only care about themselves.

Your commentary is SUPERB.
Yes, the American Executive Branch of our government (as well as anyone who supports them) is mean, barbaric, despicable.
When I was growing up in the 1970s, I really did think that our country would move more and more toward what is espoused by Liberals today.... the liberal ideals of moving away from being barbaric and mean.... the ideals of becoming less warlike, spending our resources on helping the "have nots" rather than catering to "the haves", becoming mellower, kinder, more compassionate and adhering to The Constitution.
America today is becoming worse regarding the forementioned ideals.
Terry Jones, you are so correct. Thank you for saying what you have.

How long before the US lets a handful of its own sailors get captured? That's all it would take for Bush's little popularity problem to completely evaporate.

Everyone will rally around the flag, bombs will start falling on Tehran, and the whole sick process starts all over again.

Your article is simply sarcastically fantastic. I hope others of us in the "civilised" west, in particular Bush and Blair, will read it.

For the sake of the 15 captives, I hope Iran continues to let good sense prevail by not emulating the American and British way of handling captives.

It is hoped that the abhorrent injustices perpetrated by the Americans in the so-called "war on terror" at Abu Ghraib, which the rest of the world saw and deplored, will not set a precedent for future treatment of captives. American beware - whats good for the goose is good for the gander.

The conditions Terry Jones notes isn't lost on the rest of the world. The English-speaking press is providing Iran with a publicity coup in a manner never anticipated.

Dusty - Well said! Well Said!

Rebel Farmer is on te button. Double standards - WHERE ARE THE IRANIAN DIPLOMATS TAKEN ALLEGEDLY BY THE US - in 'sovereign' (read puppet governed)Iraq.

If Brits can be tried in Iran, also a point, for straying possibly in to foreign territory, what about the Brits and Americans illegally in Iraq. Even that wimp Kofi Annan finally said the invasion was illegal.

What you reap you sow, so the saying goes.

Very witty article.

Jassim, you hit the nail on the head. If the only defense the UK has for its 15 sailors is the fact they were in Iraqi waters, the sailors are doomed. Whether they were in Iraqi or Irani waters, they were there illegally. Who are these people kidding?

Let's hope the UK and US leadership, who's been proven asinine repeatedly, will not use these half-wit sailors to spark WW3.

It's a bizarro world we're living in today.

Poor kids, like young people everywhere used as pawns in a dangrous game of " Knock the chip off my shoulder" by supposed "Leaders" !